NO… I repeat… NO power has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions when treating POW’s except the U.S. (and its allies).

The Geneva Conventions are not the only laws regulating what the US government may do with these evil people.

If you want to do whatever you want with them, you’ll need to change the laws first.

And second, you need to convince whoever is running the country to do so as well. As you know, Bush has ordered that these people not be tortured.

And he, for another week or so, is the C-in-C.

I guess everyone on the Close Gitmo ball-less bandwagon still needs to absorb that grim, but salient detail.

NO… I repeat… NO power has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions when treating POW’s except the U.S. (and its allies).

NOT Nazi Germany, NOT Soviet Russia, NOT Red China/ North Korea, NOT North Viet Nam, NOT the Lebanese Hizballah, NOT the warlord minions in Mogadishu, NOT the Al Qaeda scum in Afghanistan or Iraq… NONE of them.

Bupkiss, zero, zip, nada, zilch.

These terrorist maniacs, fighting out of uniform, are technically spies and saboteurs and need to be squeezed, then shot.

Or just shot, if they are going to bring on more propaganda trouble than military value.

But because of these instances where those have disobeyed orders, the public perception has become that it’s Bush’s policy to torture, when it clearly isn’t.

Excellent point. I’ll steal it for the next time this issue is raised.

Re waterboarding: I don’t think that this is torture either. It doesn’t cause long or even short term pain. It causes, as I understand it, an involuntary reflex by the human body that is of great – but temporary – discomfort. As you know, our own people undergo the procedure. I hardly think we’re going to torture our own people.

We’re facing an enemy that is extremely difficult to deal with. They violate all norms of warfare and are willing to die for their cause. Combine that with modern technology and it’s an adversary that can do enormous harm.

Because of this, the Bush Administration found itself with rules and methods that just could not respond to this challenge. They had to make new rules on the fly. The critics on the left ignore these facts. That is, the problem is the terrorists and their actions and not the Bush Administration’s sometimes ham-handed response.

Waterboarding is the focal point of of the issue, but only 3 terrorists have been water boarded and the fact is that it resulted with valuable intel. Even if the terrorist lies 9 times out of 10, its that 1 time that save lives and/or lead to other actionable intel. I’d say it’s worth it and records say it’s worked.

Waterboarding has always been accepted as far as I know and it didn’t just appear out of thin air. It just hasn’t been used and now interrogators might find it useful for selective interrogations because of the current circumstances.

These are serious terrorists being dealt with that want to slaughter our citizens. They have to have some kind of technique to get them to talk. What can we do?

I agree.

But that doesn’t mean, as some people here have stated, that we can do whatever we want with these evil people. Including real torture.

It also means that when the President forbids certain acts, the people under him must abide by those orders.

And finally, if we have laws that forbid certain acts, our government – under law – must abide by those laws. Even if we don’t like them. If they’re too restrictive, then we need to change or remove those laws.

I also have a problem with liberal use of the word ‘torture’ when people are really getting tortured around the world. It’s like when people “I’ve been on line forever, this is torture!” “I had to sit through Gone With the Wind in its entirety, it was torture.” It called being uncomfortable, not torture. Seriously, college kids go through more when they pledge for a fraternity.

People work in sub-freezing temperatures all the time. These terrorists run around the Afghan mountains with slippers and man-dresses. I think they can handle some coldness.

Some men have to see there fat wives naked all the time, while these terrorists probably had to see some fit military women and get some boobage in the face. How lucky.

Parents have to hear their kids listen to death metal or someone had to sit through to a Yanni concert for ther girlfriend. Is this all torture? Water boarding? but has anyone died from water boarding? It to scare them to talk about their associates and get get info. These are serious terrorists being dealt with that want to slaughter our citizens. They have to have some kind of technique to get them to talk. What can we do?

Geneva Convention be Damned… The Military Field Manual be Damned.

Sorry, it’s not okay for the men and women in uniform to ignore the rules and laws that they swear to uphold.

Any military man or women who disobeys their commanders in chief and the rules given to them by their superiors should be arrested and charged with dereliction of duty.

I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of men and women in the military think I’m right. That is, it is their sworn duty to obey their superiors and the laws of the land.

Dangle these a-holes by their ankles off the Empire State Building for all I care.

I don’t give a damn about the rights of terrorist irregulars because they by definition have no rights, they forfeit them the moment they become a terrorist.

Treating terrorists just like we do legal combatants, provides a HUGE INCENTIVE to just dispense with an organized military and go with a cheaper, more effective rogue force.

Peaceniks are too stupid to realize that.

Look guys, SteveMG is a typical bleeding heart, wussie, hate America, care what the “world” thinks, ACLU loving, criminals

The issues we’re discussing is the civilian control over the military and the rule of law.

The President has ordered the military and CIA not to torture.

If they do torture, they are violating the law and also ignoring the orders of the commander in chief.

Second, we cannot allow the government to ignore the laws that bind them. If we do, then we’re inviting a lawless government that can take our liberties.

You have welcomed the torture done to Qahtani by saying that they should do more.

In doing so, you are saying that it’s okay for the military to ignore the orders of their superiors as well as violate the laws of the this country.

I disagree with both of those.

If you’d like to respond to the substance of my claims, do so. If you want to call me names instead, that simply means you have no substance behind your views.

Read Carefully, the preamble – the first paragraph outlining the purpose of the Constitution… “to provide for the common defense”

Any Head of State, who doesn’t use EVERY tool available to achieve that objective is guilty of the Dereliction of his SWORN Duty.

Geneva Convention be Damned… The Military Field Manual be Damned.

SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Look guys, SteveMG is a typical bleeding heart, wussie, hate America, care what the “world” thinks, ACLU loving, criminals have more rights then victims, radical leftist, Liberal… He thinks with his “emotions” not with any common sense. We will never convince pacifists like SteveMg and others until they are in the line to be beheaded, held hostage and tortured by these inhuman animals… Even then, he’d be one to try to beg and talk sweet to his enemies.

Scew him, but we’ll keep his sorry butt safe just because he is an American. And Americans are ALL I care about.

10:19 AM

My guess is, you’d have a problem with pulling fingernails out… One… By… One.

If you think I do, you’re talking to the wrong person.

SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Radified PRIOR to 9/11?

Wonder how real Americans feel now?

Waterboarding is NOT, in my opinion, torture. No more then having Pilgrims in those contraptions and flogged in the public square. Public hangings, gas chambers, ect.

I will NOT have my falilies saftey compromised by weak kneed polititions, you do as you please.

OldEnglish on January 15, 2009 at 12:43 AM

Yeah, they’re exactly like cats. They come around, rub your leg when they want food (or money) then once they get what they want, they head outside and find a tomcat.

Good analogy Entelechy.

As far as torture goes, I don’t think lawyers and human rights experts need to be consulted on how we gather information. Interrogation experts should help the Commander in Chief set those types of guidelines. If they say torture doesn’t work, don’t do it. Now the left seems to like calling anything that isn’t a handjob and a sandwich torture; harsh looks are torture; yelling is torture; spankings are torture. Of course, these are the people that compare not giving in to gay marriage arguements to the Holocaust. Don’t trust lefties and lawyers to set the terms on anything. Agree on definitions. Waterboarding is not torture. It may be harsh, but it has proven to be effective, so if it is necessary, use it. Let Barrack and his brigade of spineless nancy boys give out the handjobs and the sandwichs and see what the outcome is..no pun intended.

Anyone, who doesn’t understand the difference between “torture” and “waterboarding” should stick his head in a vise, and turn the handle… Real…. Slow.

Where did I say waterboarding was torture?

The discussion is about this Qahtani detainee and secondarily, whether the government can do “whatever it takes” with these people.

I assume “whatever it takes” also means actual torture.

I guess it depeneds on what the definition of “torture” is…

You said in response to the claim that torture was done: “GOOD FOR OUR SIDE! DO IT SOME MORE!”

I assume “it” means torture?

Second, the international law I’m referring to was ratified by the Senate and signed by the President. It’s the law of the land. The government is supposed to abide by those laws just as much as with the Constitution (although the Constitution is still supreme).

10:00 AM

Anyone, who doesn’t understand the difference between “torture” and “waterboarding” should stick his head in a vise, and turn the handle… Real…. Slow.

Hummmmm, remember your hero saying that, only it went “what the definition of “is” is”…

International law… Hummm, screw the UN. We are bound, as Americans by our Constitution. Seems I remember our Founders using torture, capital punishment and “other” means to defend America in our past. Killing spys and traitors, public executions… All thinks we “modern” policticaly correct wussies have forgotten. America was a hell of a lot safer when we had “stones” and we’re willing to fire bomb Desedin and Nuke Japan and WIN at all costs.

So I reject your argument as living in a pre-9/11 world full of unicorns and daiseys… Now we have ol’ Hope-n-Change elected by morons and hate Americans like you, willing to sell our souls to the devils to be “liked” and “respected” by the UN and the World… Screw them!

Here’s one of the ones you are talking about!

Instead of attacking me why not respond to my arguments?

The President as Commander in Chief has ordered the military not to torture detainees.

Do you think it’s appropriate for the military to ignore those orders and torture detainees?

It’s against US and international law (treaties ratified by the US) to torture people regardless of their status.

Do you think it’s okay for the government to ignore those laws and torture detainees?

We either live under a rule of law or we don’t. We either have civilian control of the military or we don’t.

However our bleeding heart anguish encourages them because it makes them think we don’t have the backbone to protect ourselves. Who knows – maybe they’re right.

katiejane on January 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM

SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 9:31 AM

Here’s one of the ones you are talking about!

Hey SteveMG, I’m glad to exclude those like you that would rather wage the battle in our streets, riots and gay rights demonstrations, but not protect us ALL. Do you think the terrorists will “spare” your Liberal family just because you opposed torture of the vile trash? Nope, your dead along with your kids if they have thier way. It will be people like me that will keep your sorry excuse for a patriot from being thier next victim. Who would rather do nothing, but allow a mere “law enforcment” operation hampered by restraints placed on it by LIBERALS in America.

“Pouring water into someone’s nose is, the least harmful, and the most effective form of interrogation there is… It’s Heaven-sent.”

I agree.

God help anyone, who fails to use this tool, and the result is the loss of American’s lives.

We… Will… Nail… Your… Balls… To…. The… Wall.

GOOD FOR OUR SIDE! DO IT SOME MORE!

It’s against the orders of the Commander in Chief and President who ordered our people not to torture detainees.

It’s also against the law. In violation of US law and treaties (not the GCs) that forbid torture of people regardless of their status.

If you think it’s okay for people to disobey the orders of their superiors and also to violate the law, then fine.

But in America we have civilian control of the military. And in America we’re supposed to have a rule of law and not men.

Again, if you want to toss those aside, go for it.

But include me out.

And if the result of all of this is we kill most Jihadis we find on the battle field or remotely with predator drones rather than taking them into custody, we are probably better off in the long run.

Mr. Joe on January 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM

Except for the possible information we could obtain from captured terrorists this is probably the most effective course of action. They crave death – maybe we should be more obliging.

As long as the whiney Left wants to believe that terrorism is a law enforcement issue issue rather than a national security issue we’re doomed. IMO the terrorists don’t mistreat our military because of our occasional excesses – they understand that war is not pretty. They actually do torture our people because that is what they believe in. What else can you say about people who kill their own civilians?

However our bleeding heart anguish encourages them because it makes them think we don’t have the backbone to protect ourselves. Who knows – maybe they’re right.

“principled liberalism”

Boy,

There’s an Oxymoron, if ever there was one.