Quotes of the day
posted at 10:35 pm on January 14, 2009 by Allahpundit
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The interrogation, portions of which have been previously described by other news organizations, including The Washington Post, was so intense that Qahtani had to be hospitalized twice at Guantanamo with bradycardia, a condition in which the heart rate falls below 60 beats a minute and which in extreme cases can lead to heart failure and death. At one point Qahtani’s heart rate dropped to 35 beats per minute, the record shows…
“There’s no doubt in my mind he would’ve been on one of those planes had he gained access to the country in August 2001,” Crawford said of Qahtani, who remains detained at Guantanamo. “He’s a muscle hijacker. . . . He’s a very dangerous man. What do you do with him now if you don’t charge him and try him? I would be hesitant to say, ‘Let him go.’”…
“I sympathize with the intelligence gatherers in those days after 9/11, not knowing what was coming next and trying to gain information to keep us safe,” said Crawford, a lifelong Republican. “But there still has to be a line that we should not cross. And unfortunately what this has done, I think, has tainted everything going forward.”
*
In less than a week Barack Obama will be sworn into office and Democrats will need to stop defining themselves by their opposition to George W. Bush and start arguing in favor of serious policies for keeping this country safe. For all the self-righteous talk about constitutional protections and international law and due process, the current consensus on the left would have Obama free Qahtani and prosecute Bush. If that’s the outcome dictated by a principled liberalism, then liberalism won’t be ascendant for very long.
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Why, thank you, Entelechy.
Very true. But Bush never defended himself on this, though he was correct. Where I do fault Bush in this post 9/11 response was in not radically altering our ROE and preparing the public for the ugliness that war requires. Bush tried to maintain our same ROE while having to fight a very different, and very real, war. We had to keep the economy going, without any doubt, and Bush should not have let the left get away with their idiocy in mocking his reccomendation to keep shopping (which wasn’t only about buying things, but about going out in public – for those who remember the time).
Bush also backed down on his “bring it on” comment (which was perfectly fine) and apologized for the “Mission Accomplished” sign, which was fine, as the main mission was to get Saddam out of power and that was accomplished quite nicely (even after Turkey and everyone else tried to screw us over right before Iraq).
progressoverpeace on January 15, 2009 at 12:21 AM
Do what is necessary.
They are not American citizens, and they are not uniformed soldiers.
Keep them cold, filthy, alone, and in the dark, filled with hunger and thirst. Humiliate them and break their souls. Extract every ounce of intelligence and information on al-Qa’eda that can be garnered.
blatantblue on January 15, 2009 at 12:22 AM
For a millennium and a quarter, the castle dungeons of Europe housed Muslims taken in battle or terror attacks in Islam’s perpetual assaults on the continent. The first avenue was to try to ransom them back as Christian prisoners were purchased from the Mohammedans. Muslims never worried much about common soldiers let alone ransoming them, so they often died in those proto Gitmos.
At least then the west knew who they were fighting and called them by name.
BL@KBIRD on January 15, 2009 at 12:29 AM
T
It is not like Bush appointed any women to is administration…….Condi, oh yeah and a black woman at that. I had to use the liberal mantra and inject race.
Johan Klaus on January 15, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Entelechy….
Exactly, with two daughters embarking on the path of independence and striving to succeed on terms they define. Here in Boston, how do I explain the liberal hatred of Sara Palin, the partisan bias and proven hypocrisy that embraces Caroline Kennedy and their contemptuous ignorance of Islam. I hope and pray that the years spent under my roof penetrates their empathy infected skulls. Women are a mystery unto themselves! Help me understand………….
dmann on January 15, 2009 at 12:31 AM
The Distributed Intelligence Agency. Surely you’ve heard of them?
unclesmrgol on January 15, 2009 at 12:37 AM
I could, but then you woudn’t find them so mysterious any more, and you’d be the poorer for it. They are like cats :)
Entelechy on January 15, 2009 at 12:40 AM
Whomsoever they may be, if we’ve heard of them they are pretty much useless.
OldEnglish on January 15, 2009 at 12:41 AM
What, all hiss and scratch? :)
OldEnglish on January 15, 2009 at 12:43 AM
Like progressoverpeace said – we should not, ever, hear of them. We’re so foxtrotted.
Not all, just some, and only sometimes. If not, you’d be bored.
Entelechy on January 15, 2009 at 12:46 AM
We are all dancing around the perspective offered up by Col. Nathan R. Jessep in A Few Good Men. As heinous as this moral reality may seem when compared to civilian life, it does insure we have the best chance of succeeding on the field of battle.
dmann on January 15, 2009 at 12:49 AM
Ent….
I have 2 daughters, a wife and 2 cats and I find myself punch drunk and without bail!!!!!
dmann on January 15, 2009 at 12:54 AM
dmann, great note to go to sleep on. “You better say thank you”, told to that little weasel, in life and in the movies. Thanks for the cheers.
Entelechy on January 15, 2009 at 12:54 AM
dmann, didn’t you say the other night that you also have a son? Regarding flight?
Entelechy on January 15, 2009 at 12:55 AM
wise_man
The military and their families went to war and the rest of the public were told to act normally, they did and that formed an unreality about the whole conflict making the effort weaker and drawn out much longer than need be.
Do we have a strategy for the next five years in the War on WTF? Will we still call Muslim horses a$$es “radical Muslims” or will you only be able to call them radicals?
BL@KBIRD on January 15, 2009 at 12:58 AM
Negative on the son, stopped at 2 realized ego would not pay the bills!
dmann on January 15, 2009 at 1:00 AM
They care so much for the tortured souls that want to kill us.
They treat the tortured souls as American citizens giving them all the rights and benefits.
They wonder why the tortured souls hate us. It’s Bush, right? You can tell me. Honest.
Those tortured souls that must be cared for.
Those tortured souls need to be avenged.
Welcome to the New Age of American Guilt.
Welcome to the Realm of…. Obama.
Kini on January 15, 2009 at 1:10 AM
Sorry – had you confused with someone who said the other night that their son is flying into Boston and the conditions were foggy or snowy.
Entelechy on January 15, 2009 at 1:17 AM
The new President would remove some of the doubt about his loyalty if he were to release Qahtani–over the Atlantic.
Kralizec on January 15, 2009 at 1:38 AM
Ref the Quotes-of-the-Day….
***spits on sidewalk***
Some of you wonder what the hell is wrong with America.
What America?
***spits on sidewalk-again***
Limerick on January 15, 2009 at 2:12 AM
<a href=”http://blog.beliefnet.com/reformedchicksblabbing/2007/02/im-against-torture-of-any-kind.html”Rather than mimicing makebelieve “heroes” like Col. Jessup and Jack Bauer, why not listen to real heroes like Col. Herrington about interrogation?
Mr. Joe on January 15, 2009 at 2:34 AM
Rather than mimicing makebelieve “heroes” like Col. Jessup and Jack Bauer, why not listen to real heroes like Col. Herrington about interrogation?
Mr. Joe on January 15, 2009 at 2:35 AM
SH: Well, I think if you ask the question has it happened, or have things taken place that are wrong, and that went well over the line, I think the answer is yes, regrettably. Was it a controlled policy, i.e. that what they were doing was something that was sanctioned from on high, my own personal opinion is that some of it was, especially the things that the task force was doing in Iraq with respect to the top fifty of Saddam’s henchmen that they caught, and al Qaeda types. And in some cases, it was just stupid young people with bad leadership and bad skills essentially behaving in an extremely counterproductive and undisciplined fashion, and that’s more what applies to Abu Ghraib.
HH: And has order been restored, in your opinion, to the interrogation techniques of the United States military?
SH: Well, I certainly hope so. I can tell you, Hugh, that I was asked to go to Fort Hood this past summer and spend three straight days, 24 hours on the platform, teaching an entire new generation of young Army interrogators. And the thrust of the invitation was that we needed to get it back on track. I thought after I visited Iraq in December, ‘03, and saw some things going on that weren’t right and reported them that they’d fix it right away, and I was disappointed in that they took some measures, but there were still a lot of pretty counterproductive and stupid conduct that took place even after I had reported on it and had come back to the States. But I think by now even the dullest and the thickest of skulls has gotten the message that that’s just not the way to do it.
[...]
Mr. Joe on January 15, 2009 at 2:36 AM
This is surreal……………
……… an enemy to our very way of life, fighting in the shadows, using our own laws against us, purposely targeting innocent women and children, hiding weapons behind religion and this is the result……….
……… listen again!
Next time, it might be you or your children turned to dust…..
…… then what?
You want to talk to them, you want to make them understand, you want to be a nice guy?
……….. I don’t know what is worse, the islamofascist that I know want to kill me and my family,
Or the left liberal democrats that will wait until that happens before they are forced to protect this country.
Seven Percent Solution on January 15, 2009 at 2:48 AM
…….. long time no see.
Welcome……….. back!
Seven Percent Solution on January 15, 2009 at 2:50 AM
I have 2 daughters, a wife and 2 cats and I find myself punch drunk and without bail!!!!!
dmann
As I’ve said before, we have two cats and that’s one and a half cats too many. Is that your attitude, or are you unable to concentrate in that estrogen haze you live in?
Note: Only one daughter for me, so I guess that makes me just “punch-buzzed”?
SKYFOX on January 15, 2009 at 5:42 AM
Forgot to mention that now I have my sweet puppy “Brewski”.
Half Husky and half Australian Shepherd, so I’m told by the folks at Pet Refuge. She’s a female, but she’s a dog, dammit!
SKYFOX on January 15, 2009 at 5:45 AM
Neo-liberals will never protect “this” country that includes conservatives. Neo-liberals have schadenfreude at the demise of conservative America, feeling now there’s more for them. Even when announcing the count-off of troops lost in Iraq, it was not FOR the military or our national security, but only to promote neo-liberalism as the self adulatory cause to celebrate from Hollywood through the media and along the elitist neo-liberal academia populace. In contemporary retro-newspeak, conservatives are the “gobblers” that neo-liberal Socialists will be glad to never see again. The only thing that the left will ever protect is the left; to hell with all else. It would serve the purpose of Socialism to allow terrorists to destroy conservative oppositional forces before mounting any counter-attack on terrorism.
Look at Pakistan to see how that plan plays out.
maverick muse on January 15, 2009 at 5:56 AM
That’s exactly what came to my mind when some liberal anus tries to define a bucket of water as torture.
Anyone who is still competant at physics care to solve the equation of how long it took Mr. Briley to fall to his death from the umpteenth floor, full in the knowledge of his grisly and inescapable death?
To a man that arose the morning of 9/11 and set about his day seeking life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, choosing between dying in a raging fire and doing a full gainer off one of the world’s tallest buildings can be rightly called torture.
turfmann on January 15, 2009 at 6:05 AM
Let’s put this into context, because although this is a fine piece of cinema it is also about as stinging an indictment of the military as one can find. The Marines are depicted in this film in a manner in which many of us would recognize – tough, unyielding, duty-bound, patriotic – and we rightly cheer for them as we understand them to be the bulwark against a world that is awash in evil.
But note well that the movie was made by far right liberals, the playwright is about as far left as one can get before falling off the edge of the earth, and it is quite apparent how they see our military.
The climactic scene ends with this exchange, while a work of historical fiction, certainly embodies the hopes and dreams of the military-hating leftists we share a nation with:
When you watch the movie from the left side of the theatre, it’s an entirely different film.
BTW, dmann from Boston, I’m on the Cape – related? Likely.
turfmann on January 15, 2009 at 6:32 AM
That “going forward” phrase instead of “in the future” stinks. On topic: I don’t care what interrogators need to do. I do care when certain of those in our country are back stabbing hypocrites who would say yoiu didn’t do enough when we are attacked again.
rlwo2008 on January 15, 2009 at 6:50 AM
The lib dems will never feel forced to protect this country. They want the US destroyed, every stinking one of them. The only way we will ever be in a position to protect this country again will be AFTER lib dems are OVERTHROWN… after the next major terrorist attack.
The next terrorist attack we get will make 9/11 look like a minor traffic accident. Dems won’t be resolved to fight nor defend. They will fail miserably because you can’t be a strong leader when you can’t make a move without taking a public opinion poll. When America sees their government won’t protect them, THEN WE’LL OVERTHROW LIBERALISM.
It’s just a terrible shame that millions will have to die before we do this.
Stock up on your guns now. Only a handful of days left.
ErinF on January 15, 2009 at 7:23 AM
The answer is right here:
Buy Danish on January 15, 2009 at 7:34 AM
After Obama closes Gitmo, where is he gonna put these sweet angels of light? It will be awesome when they get mainstreamed into the US justice system. We can have Judge Ito preside and pit a show-boating high paid lawyer against a US govt prosecutor.
What is a few thousand dead Americans when you can parade your moral vanity at the next Davos summit? Maybe someone at Le Monde will say something nice? It will be SO worth it!
johnboy on January 15, 2009 at 7:37 AM
Someone must be torturing me constantly as my heart rate is generally below 60 beats per minute.
This is often recognized as a reflection of good cardiac conditioning.
drjohn on January 15, 2009 at 8:08 AM
Torture them ALL! Men, Women, Young, Old… Use WHATEVER method works, ANYTING! If it saves just ONE SINGLE AMERICAN his or her life, it was JUSTIFIED! We did not ask or deserve to be attacked on 9/11 at our Embassies, on the Cole, in Hotels and Schools… Until Americans of ALL parties decide to really fight to the death against an enemy that has sworn to it’s Allah the infields will die, then we are at HUGE RISK here in our own towns, schools and stadiums. 9/11 was not the first attack, nor will it be the last under the Messiah. Closing Gitmo, weakend Military and a return to the “wall of seperation” between our Intel organs will produce the next wave of terror and it WILL BE HERE IN AMERICA! Kill them all, torture, bomb, gas, even tact Nuke em’… The only thing this evil enemy fears is BRUTE FORCE and America has forgotten how to fight for real, how to win… The wussification of America is almost completed.
Iternet Warrior
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 8:24 AM
I’m thinking the same thing. I was in the hospital last year for some tests and I could make the alarm sound on the monitor by slowing my heart rate myself.
thomasaur on January 15, 2009 at 8:33 AM
the current consensus on the left would have Obama free Qahtani and prosecute Bush.
Allah,
How do you post a sentence like this with a clear conscious? There’s no evidence that this is the “consensus” stance of the left.
I find it funny that the link you provide says that the “left” missed the point of this story.
The point is pretty hard to miss. One of the main arguments against torture is that it’s not an effective tactic because people who have been tortured have been shown to provide false information to make the torture stop. This was bolstered by the fact that one of the Pentagon’s top lawyers (a appointee of both Reagan and W.) refused to prosecute because of the interrogation techniques used. It’s very notable that she believes those techniques constitute torture.
I find it funny that guy you link to chalks this up to merely a “difference in opinion” between this lawyer and Bush and Cheney considering the last time we listened to Bush and Cheney we thought Iraq was on the verge of attacking us with WMDs. They don’t have much credibility with the American public.
This is a big story. The Gitmo lawyer believes the US tortured Gitmo detainees.
Tom_Shipley on January 15, 2009 at 8:36 AM
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 8:24 AM
OK, so you’re a parody, right?
Tom_Shipley on January 15, 2009 at 8:45 AM
Wrong, o’ Liberal wussie… I’m an American. I want all terrorists dead… D-E-A-D! If we need to torture them first to prevent future 9/11’s, so be it! This vile, evil enemy has told us, point blank, in plain language that they intend to fight to the death to kill ALL OF US, yes, even bleeding heart Liberals like you and your family. Kill us ALL, black, white, brown, rich, poor, young, old, Conservative and Liberal… Kill ALL Americans… What about that do you morons not understand? The 9/11 commision, something that bleeding BDS Liberals always like to point to stated, The Terrorists have been at WAR with America for years, we have NOT been at war with them”. Well guess what, the attacks in India are exactly what they have in store for the good ol USA. So when they take over your Daughters school or your Church… Please remember this post and your idiotic responce. Typical hide the head in the sand, wussie Liberal thinking is what got us 9/11 and the Cole and other such attacks. I say NO MORE! Kill em’ ALL! Patton’s famous line, “Your job is not to die for your country, but to have the other man die for his”! More revelent then ever, true today as it was in WWII and we need to remember as a Nation what drastic mesures we took to win then and repeat them now, while we still have time.
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM
GOOD FOR OUR SIDE! DO IT SOME MORE!
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 8:58 AM
Boy,
There’s an Oxymoron, if ever there was one.
franksalterego on January 15, 2009 at 9:27 AM
Except for the possible information we could obtain from captured terrorists this is probably the most effective course of action. They crave death – maybe we should be more obliging.
As long as the whiney Left wants to believe that terrorism is a law enforcement issue issue rather than a national security issue we’re doomed. IMO the terrorists don’t mistreat our military because of our occasional excesses – they understand that war is not pretty. They actually do torture our people because that is what they believe in. What else can you say about people who kill their own civilians?
However our bleeding heart anguish encourages them because it makes them think we don’t have the backbone to protect ourselves. Who knows – maybe they’re right.
katiejane on January 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM
It’s against the orders of the Commander in Chief and President who ordered our people not to torture detainees.
It’s also against the law. In violation of US law and treaties (not the GCs) that forbid torture of people regardless of their status.
If you think it’s okay for people to disobey the orders of their superiors and also to violate the law, then fine.
But in America we have civilian control of the military. And in America we’re supposed to have a rule of law and not men.
Again, if you want to toss those aside, go for it.
But include me out.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 9:31 AM
Dennis Miller:
“Pouring water into someone’s nose is, the least harmful, and the most effective form of interrogation there is… It’s Heaven-sent.”
I agree.
God help anyone, who fails to use this tool, and the result is the loss of American’s lives.
We… Will… Nail… Your… Balls… To…. The… Wall.
franksalterego on January 15, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Here’s one of the ones you are talking about!
Hey SteveMG, I’m glad to exclude those like you that would rather wage the battle in our streets, riots and gay rights demonstrations, but not protect us ALL. Do you think the terrorists will “spare” your Liberal family just because you opposed torture of the vile trash? Nope, your dead along with your kids if they have thier way. It will be people like me that will keep your sorry excuse for a patriot from being thier next victim. Who would rather do nothing, but allow a mere “law enforcment” operation hampered by restraints placed on it by LIBERALS in America.
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Instead of attacking me why not respond to my arguments?
The President as Commander in Chief has ordered the military not to torture detainees.
Do you think it’s appropriate for the military to ignore those orders and torture detainees?
It’s against US and international law (treaties ratified by the US) to torture people regardless of their status.
Do you think it’s okay for the government to ignore those laws and torture detainees?
We either live under a rule of law or we don’t. We either have civilian control of the military or we don’t.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 10:00 AM
I guess it depeneds on what the definition of “torture” is…
Hummmmm, remember your hero saying that, only it went “what the definition of “is” is”…
International law… Hummm, screw the UN. We are bound, as Americans by our Constitution. Seems I remember our Founders using torture, capital punishment and “other” means to defend America in our past. Killing spys and traitors, public executions… All thinks we “modern” policticaly correct wussies have forgotten. America was a hell of a lot safer when we had “stones” and we’re willing to fire bomb Desedin and Nuke Japan and WIN at all costs.
So I reject your argument as living in a pre-9/11 world full of unicorns and daiseys… Now we have ol’ Hope-n-Change elected by morons and hate Americans like you, willing to sell our souls to the devils to be “liked” and “respected” by the UN and the World… Screw them!
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Anyone, who doesn’t understand the difference between “torture” and “waterboarding” should stick his head in a vise, and turn the handle… Real…. Slow.
franksalterego on January 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM
You said in response to the claim that torture was done: “GOOD FOR OUR SIDE! DO IT SOME MORE!”
I assume “it” means torture?
Second, the international law I’m referring to was ratified by the Senate and signed by the President. It’s the law of the land. The government is supposed to abide by those laws just as much as with the Constitution (although the Constitution is still supreme).
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Where did I say waterboarding was torture?
The discussion is about this Qahtani detainee and secondarily, whether the government can do “whatever it takes” with these people.
I assume “whatever it takes” also means actual torture.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 10:19 AM
Yeah, they’re exactly like cats. They come around, rub your leg when they want food (or money) then once they get what they want, they head outside and find a tomcat.
Good analogy Entelechy.
As far as torture goes, I don’t think lawyers and human rights experts need to be consulted on how we gather information. Interrogation experts should help the Commander in Chief set those types of guidelines. If they say torture doesn’t work, don’t do it. Now the left seems to like calling anything that isn’t a handjob and a sandwich torture; harsh looks are torture; yelling is torture; spankings are torture. Of course, these are the people that compare not giving in to gay marriage arguements to the Holocaust. Don’t trust lefties and lawyers to set the terms on anything. Agree on definitions. Waterboarding is not torture. It may be harsh, but it has proven to be effective, so if it is necessary, use it. Let Barrack and his brigade of spineless nancy boys give out the handjobs and the sandwichs and see what the outcome is..no pun intended.
austinnelly on January 15, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Radified PRIOR to 9/11?
Wonder how real Americans feel now?
Waterboarding is NOT, in my opinion, torture. No more then having Pilgrims in those contraptions and flogged in the public square. Public hangings, gas chambers, ect.
I will NOT have my falilies saftey compromised by weak kneed polititions, you do as you please.
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 10:22 AM
My guess is, you’d have a problem with pulling fingernails out… One… By… One.
If you think I do, you’re talking to the wrong person.
franksalterego on January 15, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Look guys, SteveMG is a typical bleeding heart, wussie, hate America, care what the “world” thinks, ACLU loving, criminals have more rights then victims, radical leftist, Liberal… He thinks with his “emotions” not with any common sense. We will never convince pacifists like SteveMg and others until they are in the line to be beheaded, held hostage and tortured by these inhuman animals… Even then, he’d be one to try to beg and talk sweet to his enemies.
Scew him, but we’ll keep his sorry butt safe just because he is an American. And Americans are ALL I care about.
Mark Garnett on January 15, 2009 at 10:30 AM
Some people (you know who you are) seem to think, the Geneva Convention and the Military Field Manual, supersedes the Constitution – the document that defines the DUTY and OBLIGATIONS of our Gov’t.
Read Carefully, the preamble – the first paragraph outlining the purpose of the Constitution… “to provide for the common defense”
Any Head of State, who doesn’t use EVERY tool available to achieve that objective is guilty of the Dereliction of his SWORN Duty.
Geneva Convention be Damned… The Military Field Manual be Damned.
franksalterego on January 15, 2009 at 10:51 AM
The issues we’re discussing is the civilian control over the military and the rule of law.
The President has ordered the military and CIA not to torture.
If they do torture, they are violating the law and also ignoring the orders of the commander in chief.
Second, we cannot allow the government to ignore the laws that bind them. If we do, then we’re inviting a lawless government that can take our liberties.
You have welcomed the torture done to Qahtani by saying that they should do more.
In doing so, you are saying that it’s okay for the military to ignore the orders of their superiors as well as violate the laws of the this country.
I disagree with both of those.
If you’d like to respond to the substance of my claims, do so. If you want to call me names instead, that simply means you have no substance behind your views.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 11:53 AM
A line we should not cross?
Dangle these a-holes by their ankles off the Empire State Building for all I care.
I don’t give a damn about the rights of terrorist irregulars because they by definition have no rights, they forfeit them the moment they become a terrorist.
Treating terrorists just like we do legal combatants, provides a HUGE INCENTIVE to just dispense with an organized military and go with a cheaper, more effective rogue force.
Peaceniks are too stupid to realize that.
NoDonkey on January 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Sorry, it’s not okay for the men and women in uniform to ignore the rules and laws that they swear to uphold.
Any military man or women who disobeys their commanders in chief and the rules given to them by their superiors should be arrested and charged with dereliction of duty.
I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of men and women in the military think I’m right. That is, it is their sworn duty to obey their superiors and the laws of the land.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM
The problem with me is that all this will be used by democrats to try to have a ‘criminal investigation’ of the Bush administration.
I also have a problem with liberal use of the word ‘torture’ when people are really getting tortured around the world. It’s like when people “I’ve been on line forever, this is torture!” “I had to sit through Gone With the Wind in its entirety, it was torture.” It called being uncomfortable, not torture. Seriously, college kids go through more when they pledge for a fraternity.
People work in sub-freezing temperatures all the time. These terrorists run around the Afghan mountains with slippers and man-dresses. I think they can handle some coldness.
Some men have to see there fat wives naked all the time, while these terrorists probably had to see some fit military women and get some boobage in the face. How lucky.
Parents have to hear their kids listen to death metal or someone had to sit through to a Yanni concert for ther girlfriend. Is this all torture? Water boarding? but has anyone died from water boarding? It to scare them to talk about their associates and get get info. These are serious terrorists being dealt with that want to slaughter our citizens. They have to have some kind of technique to get them to talk. What can we do?
Indy928 on January 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM
the problem with “the line that we shall not cross”, is that the line keeps fading and moving.
kirkill on January 15, 2009 at 1:04 PM
I agree.
But that doesn’t mean, as some people here have stated, that we can do whatever we want with these evil people. Including real torture.
It also means that when the President forbids certain acts, the people under him must abide by those orders.
And finally, if we have laws that forbid certain acts, our government – under law – must abide by those laws. Even if we don’t like them. If they’re too restrictive, then we need to change or remove those laws.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 1:04 PM
I totally agree Steve, we can’t do whatever we want, I think people are being sarcastic. Its just that it’s individuals that are crossing the line and not listening to their superiors. They have been dealt with accordingly. But because of these instances where those have disobeyed orders, the public perception has become that it’s Bush’s policy to torture, when it clearly isn’t.
Waterboarding is the focal point of of the issue, but only 3 terrorists have been water boarded and the fact is that it resulted with valuable intel. Even if the terrorist lies 9 times out of 10, its that 1 time that save lives and/or lead to other actionable intel. I’d say it’s worth it and records say it’s worked.
Waterboarding has always been accepted as far as I know and it didn’t just appear out of thin air. It just hasn’t been used and now interrogators might find it useful for selective interrogations because of the current circumstances.
Indy928 on January 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Excellent point. I’ll steal it for the next time this issue is raised.
Re waterboarding: I don’t think that this is torture either. It doesn’t cause long or even short term pain. It causes, as I understand it, an involuntary reflex by the human body that is of great – but temporary – discomfort. As you know, our own people undergo the procedure. I hardly think we’re going to torture our own people.
We’re facing an enemy that is extremely difficult to deal with. They violate all norms of warfare and are willing to die for their cause. Combine that with modern technology and it’s an adversary that can do enormous harm.
Because of this, the Bush Administration found itself with rules and methods that just could not respond to this challenge. They had to make new rules on the fly. The critics on the left ignore these facts. That is, the problem is the terrorists and their actions and not the Bush Administration’s sometimes ham-handed response.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 1:22 PM
They mutilated and murdered our POW’s.
I guess everyone on the Close Gitmo ball-less bandwagon still needs to absorb that grim, but salient detail.
NO… I repeat… NO power has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions when treating POW’s except the U.S. (and its allies).
NOT Nazi Germany, NOT Soviet Russia, NOT Red China/ North Korea, NOT North Viet Nam, NOT the Lebanese Hizballah, NOT the warlord minions in Mogadishu, NOT the Al Qaeda scum in Afghanistan or Iraq… NONE of them.
Bupkiss, zero, zip, nada, zilch.
These terrorist maniacs, fighting out of uniform, are technically spies and saboteurs and need to be squeezed, then shot.
Or just shot, if they are going to bring on more propaganda trouble than military value.
profitsbeard on January 15, 2009 at 7:07 PM
The Geneva Conventions are not the only laws regulating what the US government may do with these evil people.
If you want to do whatever you want with them, you’ll need to change the laws first.
And second, you need to convince whoever is running the country to do so as well. As you know, Bush has ordered that these people not be tortured.
And he, for another week or so, is the C-in-C.
SteveMG on January 15, 2009 at 7:31 PM
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