The difference was that Arminius believed that God predestined according to His foreknowledge:

Romans 8:29 (King James Version)

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

While Calvin believed that God chooses (what we might call) arbitrarily, just whomever He chooses to choose.

To the best of my knowledge, it is a rather recent (past few hundred years) phenomenon that churches have adopted the belief that man chooses God at all. One point of agreement between Calvin and Arminius is the doctrine of “Total Depravity” meaning that because of fallen man’s sinful nature, he is totally incapable of loving God without some kind of Divine Intervention and therefore it is impossible for him to choose God at all, or be convinced of his need for God through argument or any other kind of appeal.

Many churches get around this problem by adopting the doctrine of a “divine nudge.” A moment of Grace that allows man to accept or reject God for that one instant that the nudge is being applied. Arminius might have agreed with this, but he still would have believed that that opportunity would have only been given to those whom God predestined according to His foreknowledge.

I can see how this pastor would get upset with the doctrines of the American church on these matters. What is currently practiced in many American churces isn’t even true Arminianism, but rather a Democratized, modernized, poorly thought out verson of it. What is practiced in much of the modern American Church is a humanistic, “believer-centric” Christianity that forgets the reason that God saves any of us (for His glory) and that Heaven isn’t a right that God denies some people, but rather an amazing gift that He gives to whom He chooses.

God is no longer a benevolent king, granting His subjects access by His grace to what they have absolutely no right. He is instead a poor, pitiful figure begging anyone passing by to come and join his club.

Pastors have gone from being speakers of difficult truths (see: “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”) and become slick salesmen, and the slicker the better, hoping to argue or beg some people into the Kingdom. The church itself has become a sales-pitch from the minute you walk through the door (or perhaps enter the parking lot), with graphics and music and plays professionally desingned to convince you to “sign on the dotted line” like you were buying a car.

Much of the Church has stopped teaching and helping Christians to deepen their relationships with God and begun teaching self-help and “how to share the Gospel” instead of believing what Scripture says and trusting that through a deepening relationship with God and the new Nature that comes with it, the believer will live and act and speak the way God directs him.

As such, the American Church is often described as “a mile wide and an inch deep.” The problem with that is that the Church isn’t “a mile wide” anymore. In fact it’s shrinking all the time, and what the purveyors of this new system never seem to realize is that the more they trust in themselves to grow the church, the more the church shrinks.

What it boils down to is that much of the Church has given up on trusting God. We want to trust ourselves, for salvations for right living and everything else. And the more we trust ourselves, the more we fail. And, Heaven forbid, a church leader is seen as “successful” the glory goes him instead of God and everyone follows his “model” or “plan” instead of the precepts clearly outlined in Scripture of (paraphrased) “Trust and Obey.”

I chose Calvinism of my own free will because I was predestined to be Armenian. LOL

Actually I am neither anymore.

Thank God.

John The Baptist on January 11, 2009 at 2:58 PM

You’re no longer Armenian? That’s a pretty neat trick being able to disassociate yourself from your country or descendants.

:)

He intervenes to try to save people all the time…

NeverLiberal on January 11, 2009 at 12:42 AM

Here is your problem. Your god’s ‘tries’ aren’t enough. His plans are thwarted constantly by his own creatures. Your God is small.

That’s why regeneration has to take place first. God gently removes the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh and in doing so he makes us willing.

I’m joyful that he made me willing.

I mean really, Allah, you’re a smart guy. What does God need to do for you to figure it out?

What AllahPundit–& anyone else–needs to do to figure it out:
1) Humble yourself.
Jesus said, “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, & you don’t seek the glory that comes from God?”
“Pride comes before a fall”
“God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
2) Be honest. Jesus said, “The good & honest heart receives the word gladly.”
3) Seek the Lord. God promises that all who wholeheartedly seek him will find him.

God could have cut out the middle man and just created paradise from the beginning. The fact that he didn’t has to offer some insight into God’s alleged mercy.

RightOFLeft on January 11, 2009 at 2:29 AM

Er… According to Christian doctrine, he did. Cf., “Garden of Eden.”

Actually, it’s not just semantic. Belated exit question: If God’s doing the choosing, how and when did he decide whom to save and whom to let burn?

You have the ability to read. I assume you’re also not deaf. Do you expect God to descend, slap you around and say “Hey, fella, believe this”?

I mean really, Allah, you’re a smart guy. What does God need to do for you to figure it out?

He justifies making fun of Mormons in yet another video, so I’m guessing they’re in the “not really” column.

It’s only been in the last thirty years that Mormons called themselves Christians. Before that, they got insulted when you called them Christians.

No, but damning us for eternity while giving us false hope is, I think, quite cruel.

Summer on January 10, 2009 at 11:40 PM

You aren’t damned by God. You can only be damned by your own actions.

LOL

Baloney

Zoraster is a joke–almost as funny as Prometheus—you gotta smoke a lot of dope to fall for those phonies……

Been there, done that, threw away the t-shirt.

I dug through alot of garbage to cut and paste a Bible-less theology too—then I realized that it ended up what it started out as—garbage.

John The Baptist on January 11, 2009 at 2:56 PM

Oh, I’ll agree with you that Zoroaster is a joke, but it predates Christianity. That doesn’t make it real.

Posted in Headlines comments:
Chuck Smith through the Bible

rhodeymark on January 11, 2009 at 9:00 AM

Chuck Smith is my pastor, an Arminian who believes in one of Calvinism’s five points — that man is radically depraved. He is an original evangelical standing athwart the emergent church and prosperity gospel movements, yelling “Stop!”

Despite the fruitfulness of his Calvary Chapel fellowship that now numbers in the hundreds worldwide, Pastor Chuck is still as on fire for the Lord as when he started preaching in an Orange County tent filled with Jesus People nearly 40 years ago.

Actually I am neither anymore.

Thank God.

Baloney

Zoraster is a joke–almost as funny as Prometheus—you gotta smoke a lot of dope to fall for those phonies……

Been there, done that, threw away the t-shirt.

I dug through alot of garbage to cut and paste a Bible-less theology too—then I realized that it ended up what it started out as—garbage.

I believe in God, but I don’t believe in Hell. I think I should be good because that is what God wants.

I don’t need Hell to keep me in a Mexican standoff against my morality.

Black Adam on January 11, 2009 at 5:27 AM
Sorry, then we don’t believe in the same God. Jesus Christ and his followers in Scripture (which Jesus Christ confirmed) spoke very directly about Hell and the need to avoid it! He did not mince words or speak in parables about it. He spoke of it as a literal place of torment that we are to avoid! You cannot believe in the true God and not believe in Heaven and Hell! Sorry!

sabbott on January 11, 2009 at 6:24 AM

Heh. Research a few years back before the Bible and read about Zoroaster. If reading about pre-christian faiths is taboo for you, then read Prometheus Bound and see the parallels between it and Christianity.

Calvinists just need a good dose of Arminianism.

locomotivebreath1901 on January 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Apparently you don’t understand Calvinism then. A Calvinist see himself as he is, a sinner who deserves to go to Hell and only through God’s grace, he has been chosen to escape that damnation. If he truly is a Calvinist, then he will live a life that only pleases God because he has a proper grasp on who God is (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Johnathan Edwards) One of the first questions in the Westminster Confession of Faith is, What is the chief end of man? Answer: To glorify God and enjoy Him for ever. You can’t glorify God and enjoy Him forever, if you are living in sin and constantly worrying about where or not you will do something that will send you to Hell, even if God has died for your sins. God chose the elect in Him before the foundation of the world. It was God’s plan, carried out by Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and applied by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1) We had nothing to do with our salvation Eph 2:1 and 2:8,9 and can do nothing to lose it. God does however chasten those who live in sin and the ultimate chastisement is death. Being a Calvinist causes you to live a life that is more pleasing to God because we can see ourselves as what we could have been, except for saving Grace of Christ. Romans 3 (There is none righteous, no not one, there is non that seeketh after Him, they are all gone out of the way)Eternal security is not a get out of Hell free card, it is assurance that God is not a liar and that our lives are in His hand and not in our own. Romans 8:28-29.

Yes, this is very important point. And it’s not just some churches. Many entertainment venues play music at dangerous level.
thuja on January 11, 2009 at 12:47 PM

very true!! you can’t go see live music of any type anymore, they have it so amped up…they must think, if its loud, its good…

Becoming deaf actually makes people unhappier than becoming blind. I would argue that human happiness could better be served by regulation of noise levels at entertainment venues than by anti-tobacco regulation.

interesting, I wasn’t aware of that..I couldn’t imagine being blind…because I love to read…and look at pretty girls… ;-)

either would be very difficult…

Are you saying God created the universe outside of time? Firstly, what does that even mean? And secondly, how did you get to this conclusion when The Bible suggests otherwise?

Nonfactor on January 11, 2009 at 4:22 AM

What does it mean? The possibilities are endless.

I disagree that the Bible does anything of the sort.

Well, you know, my comment was meant to be amusing, and only meant to annoy the dumber Christians.

thuja on January 11, 2009 at 10:20 AM

There wasn’t really much in your post to indicate that.

After your explanation, I get what you were doing, but to accomplish that you needed to go a little further.

My point was that Judaism requires a convert to be approved by a rabbinical court.

thuja on January 11, 2009 at 10:48 AM

That’s fine, but Jews are also born Jewish. Certainly that’s just as much a crutch.

yeah I’m offended by any type of music that is so loud it damages your hearing…and when your ears are ringing…they’re being damaged…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Yes, this is very important point. And it’s not just some churches. Many entertainment venues play music at dangerous level. Becoming deaf actually makes people unhappier than becoming blind. I would argue that human happiness could better be served by regulation of noise levels at entertainment venues than by anti-tobacco regulation.

If the music at your church offends you, then go somewhere where it doesn’t offend you. That the music they use offends you doesn’t mean that they are wrong or trying to manipulate anyone, it only means that you either have a different preference for music, or have become to ridge in your thinking to appreciate the style of music they choose to use

yeah I’m offended by any type of music that is so loud it damages your hearing…and when your ears are ringing…they’re being damaged…

doriangrey on January 11, 2009 at 10:40 AM

but it doesn’t say anything about praising Him until you damage your hearing…

Well, you know, my comment was meant to be amusing, and only meant to annoy the dumber Christians.

thuja on January 11, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Making fun of born again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high-powered rifle and scope.

– P. J. O’Rourke

thuja ISN’T much of a sportsman, now is he? What do you think collie?

My collie says:

I think we should report him to the S.P.C.A. –and maybe to P.E.T.A. as well.

Yeah. If he thinks Christians are dumb, wait until THOSE people camp-out on his front lawn.

Explanations of humour are notoriously unfunny, but I’ll try. My statement was meant to be over the top. I had hope that the intelligent Christians would see that it was meant as humor. The dumber ones would then illustrate exactly what I meant by the lack of quality of control in Christianity.

@jgapinoy
Obviously, atheism also has no quality control. My point was that Judaism requires a convert to be approved by a rabbinical court.

I’ve been to churches where the music is like a rock concert…my ears ring after the service…I quit those churches…all you can hear is a pouding bass beat…

I think they cross the line at that point, and use music to manipulate people….kind of like the drums in voodoo…to get an emotional response…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 10:12 AM

Some people like Jazz, some like Classical, some like country and some like rock and roll. Musical tastes vary according to the individual. Most people have preconceived notions of what is appropriate for certain situations. Those notions are not always right. The Apostle Paul had this to say.

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Music in the church works much the same way. It’s there to serve the needs of those who attend the church. If the music at your church offends you, then go somewhere where it doesn’t offend you. That the music they use offends you doesn’t mean that they are wrong or trying to manipulate anyone, it only means that you either have a different preference for music, or have become to ridge in your thinking to appreciate the style of music they choose to use.

I’ll leave you with King David’s thoughts on this matter…

3 Praise him with a blast of the trumpet; praise him with the lyre and harp!

4 Praise him with the tambourine and dancing; praise him with stringed instruments and flutes!

5 Praise him with a clash of cymbals; praise him with loud clanging cymbals.

Just curious. What do you mean by the “dumber” Christians”?

thuja on January 11, 2009 at 10:20 AM

What about atheist quality control? Oh, wait, if there’s no God, then there are no standards.