Video: The Oscar Grant shooting
posted at 12:45 pm on January 9, 2009 by Allahpundit
Three clips, the first a TV news report so you’ll have an idea of what happened and then two different close-ups via cell phone. The shooting comes at 1:15 of the second video and 2:55 of the third. In brief: It’s early New Year’s Day, there’s a fight on the Oakland subway, the transit cops come and pull a few men aside, one of whom is Grant. He ends up sitting against a wall, then two cops maneuver him face down, presumably to cuff him. There’s a slight struggle, whereupon one of them stands, pulls his pistol — and fires, sending his colleagues backpedaling in shock. Look closely in the second clip and you’ll see that even Mehserle, the cop who pulled the trigger, seems surprised. The theory is that he meant to grab his taser and wasn’t paying attention, but (a) the gun’s in his hand for a second or two before he shoots and (b) the other cop appears to still be holding Grant down. Wouldn’t that have transferred the zap from the taser into his body?
The bullet went through Grant’s back, bounced off the floor, and ended up in his lung. He died a few hours later. There have been demonstrations ever since, with Mehserle first being put on paid leave and then quitting the force on Wednesday. It happened in full view of dozens of people, obviously, so it’s hard to believe it was deliberate, but all I can come up with by way of explanation is that he had some sort of brain freeze.
You’re watching a man die here so please observe this, your official content warning. Exit question for our police readers: Have you ever absentmindedly reached for your taser and grabbed your pistol instead? If so, don’t they feel sufficiently different in your hand that you’d know instantly? Are the two weapons even on the same side of your belt?
Blowback
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This scenario is completely different than the one you presented earlier, and is the reason that many areas also have minimum speed limits. Yes, if someone is going drastically slower than the rest of the cars on the road, they can present a danger (although 10 MPH slower I wouldn’t really call drastic). Your whole argument just makes it seem that you want to be able to speed and the stodgy law-abiding citizens are just getting in your way. If you weren’t speeding, or breaking the law, people like me wouldn’t be a danger to you.
And don’t be ridiculous. Obviously I’ve gone over the speed limit on occasion, by a marginal amount. Sometimes you’re not paying complete attention to the speedometer, it happens to everyone sometimes (sort of going back to the whole humans and cops make mistakes argument). I’ve never consistently gone 15 MPH over the limit for an extended period of time, as you are want to do.
Regardless, if you’re paying attention to the road, then you should be able to adjust if someone ahead of you is driving slower than you and avoid an accident. Unless of course, you are speeding.
Sir Corky on January 9, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Sydney Carton on January 9, 2009 at 1:22 PM
In regards to the “puppycide” phenomenon, I found this incident particularly charming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFlWGeb_aw
alex342 on January 9, 2009 at 1:33 PM
“At a minimum they need Jim Crow laws to keep the blacks out of the white areas there.”
ThackerAgency on January 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Seeing as those laws were enacted and enforced by Dems and we now have Dem majorities in Congress your wish may be fulfilled. Why don’t you write Grand Kleagle Byrd.
Tom
marinetbryant on January 9, 2009 at 1:33 PM
I meant third video…
right2bright on January 9, 2009 at 1:34 PM
No…Taser guns, although utlizing electricity, do not just shoot electricity into the target. They utilize the human body as a conduit for electricity traveling between two points, whether those points are 2 inches apart prongs at the end of the taser gun, or, when discharged , two fish-hook like prongs which attach on the suspects body.
Either way, if you were wrestling with someone on the ground, the only way to get ‘shocked’ by the gun would be to have actual physical (at the cellular level) between the suspect and those two points.
And, for the record. every cop makes mistakes, but that does not make us evil. To label this guy a demon is incorrect. Sadly, it looks like this mistake cost someone their life. A history of deficient training will probably be discovered on this guy…
CapitalistPig on January 9, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Good point. It seams that some people forget that Cops get shot in routine traffic stops too.
- The Cat
MirCat on January 9, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Even if it was a tragic mistake, the cop should go to jail for it. It is not a defense to a homocide to say that the death only resulted from your negligence.
Furthermore, the law distinguishes between “negligence” and “recklesness” (or “gross negligence”). Negligence is a small mistake, recklesness is a big mistake. This is a big mistake. And if by acting recklessly you cause the death of a person, you can go to jail for a very long time. It’s just one notch below intentional murder.
Sydney Carton on January 9, 2009 at 1:32 PM
———–
Police officers have lethal weapons and it’s reasonable to expect that they weild them properly. There is no excuse for not knowing you have your gun in your hand instead of your taser. Yeah for sure the cop should go to jail.
Dave Rywall on January 9, 2009 at 1:35 PM
wield. weild. use.
Dave Rywall on January 9, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Let me ask… what type of people commit those crimes against black men? Unless Oakland is different than most other major cities in this country, black men are shot by black men.
Oink on January 9, 2009 at 1:36 PM
If a non-police officer was filmed executing someone at point-blank range we would all be talking about hanging him for his crime and questioning why even bother with a trial. But because the State allowed this idiot to carry a weapon, one man is dead and we’re debating the onlookers being pissed off and throwing things.
Send the cop to jail for the rest of his life. An example needs to be made of this guy for this gross abuse of authority. And don’t give me nonsense about putting myself in his spot or not knowing how threatening the victim may have been. They had the situation under control and the initial fight is not unusual in any metropolitan area.
Police are supposed to be trained in how to deal with these situations and this guy obviously forgot his training. He took a life and needs to pay the price.
grdred944 on January 9, 2009 at 1:36 PM
I was once driving with my then husband around Okland on vacation.
The State Cops were ALL OVER. They were cleaning up the highway it seemed, from some type of debris and it was also 2 AM in the morning. My Ex started getting out of the car to help the cops get the debris off the road. He is a well built Army guy, you can’t miss him and he looks the role of the military. The State Cops stopped what they were doing and pulled their pistols out. My Ex dropped the board he was carrying to the side of the road and put his hands up. A State cop tackled him to the ground and tried to hand cuff him. I was screaming at them to stop and that he was helping them.
The LT for the State Cops stopped them from detaining my Ex since he didn’t do anything wrong and was just being a good citizen. Come to find out earlier that night they had a stand off on the same highway with a man who had stolen a car, raped the passenger, killed her and while getting away from the State Cops in a high spped chase slammed into a wall to kill himself. So they were on edge. It still didn’t justify what they did, but it made sense as to why they did what they did.
upinak on January 9, 2009 at 1:37 PM
This is a reasonable quote. I totally agree. While I know many officers who are precious people, good Christians and law abiders, the stories they tell of other officers has reminded me that a uniform does not make one “civil.” And, at the end of the day, how many would still swear allegiance to a corrupt government or will leave the force because the government is turning on the people.
Mommypundit on January 9, 2009 at 1:37 PM
The guy who hit me wasn’t speeding. I’m guessing he was too damn old and with his skills, a car going at more than 0 miles per hour is too fast.
In the other incident, the car was definitely speeding.
Didn’t say it does. I’m just pointing out that it’s not just drivers who have a stake in proper traffic regulations. My country of birth has horrible traffic regulation (cops don’t care, drivers routinely ride over people and keep going like nothing happened) and just crossing the street in busy areas is an adventure.
Then what’s your beef?
Darth Executor on January 9, 2009 at 1:38 PM
I always keep any trigger weapons on the opposite side of my firearm. The officer had no reason under his levels of force rules to pull out his firearm, which leads me to believe he mistook his firearm for a taser or he had a serious lapse in judgment. Either way the Bart P.D. is better off without him.
Howcome on January 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM
A brawl often ensues when someone is attacked. I hope you’re never attacked and have to defend yourself or family, then shot in the melee.
The Race Card on January 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Dude (or dudess) you really need to see a doctor about that paranoia problem you have. I hear they make some pretty good medication for it too.
Knucklehead on January 9, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Unfortunately, if you’re doing the speed limit when the flow of traffic is 15 mph faster than you’re speed, you’re endangering everyone around you.
You’re right in the sense that if anything every happened and you ended up in court, the law would be on your side. In terms of everyday life on the road, however, it seems to be an unspoken reality (acknowledge by cops and drivers alike) that staying with the flow of traffic is as sensible as observing a strict speed limit in a residential neighborhood or populated area.
Stop it. It’s illegal. You’ve endangered others. ;-)
I don’t want you to do anything except to stop characterizing the majority of drivers – who travel above posted speed limits on major roads or highways – as some kind of criminal that is a danger to you. You admitted you’ve done it yourself (for which I don’t fault you), so you’re no better than the rest of us.
Both of us are going in the same direction – BE CAREFUL. Can we agree on that?
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 1:40 PM
I was in Bountiful, UT – which is about a safe a community as exists – it’s like Mayberry – on a side street, middle of a sunny summer day.
I was looking for my two labs that had gotten out, so I was driving around. I came upon a police officer who had pulled over a vehicle (speeding probably). He was on the other side of the street, and was at the window of the other care (“sign here”, etc).
I parked my car on the other side of the street, got out and crossed the (side) street, saying “Excuse me, officer have you seen….” At about 20 feet away, he jumped back, drew his weapon, and pointed it at me saying “freeze!”.
I was like WTF!!!
Davis county UT has a bad reputation. When drivers have gotten pulled over for routine offenses, they’ve ended up in the morgue.
aquaviva on January 9, 2009 at 1:41 PM
We can dispute of exact or proper amount of speed, but, regardless, government is not all bad and some works to restrain the ararchist impulses of a population. We will be governed by SOMETHING…and government by self is anarchy. Our form of limited government was for a moral people governed by a conscience informed by a Creator God. Period. Without Him, it is only individualism. High individualism breeds anarchy without restraint. So, again, some government restraint is for the public good. Seriously.
Mommypundit on January 9, 2009 at 1:41 PM
There’s no way to tell from these crappy videos exactly what transpired to cause the cop to draw & fire, whether it was an error of judgment or malice.
From what reactions I could make out, it didn’t look malicious.
I’m no fan of cops, but it’s all too easy to just curse them for this kind of incident. Has anyone stopped to think of the pressures they’re under when faced with an angry mob of blacks like this? The obvious racial factor is high, adrenaline, stress through the roof….is anyone challenging the ‘wisdom’ of these people in accelerating a situation like this with aggressive behavior? If the crowd had been peaceable and allowed all the cops to focus their attention on the arrest, rather than having to watch their backs and stand guard against external violence, would this kid be alive?
The crowd contributed to this kids death.
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Okay, I am at a loss – quantify many. One in 100? One in 1000? One in 10000? You’ve got some rather irrational fears friend. There are “bad” officers, and some with the “cop” ego. But overall, they kind of have to have that ego. My neighbor, Sacramento County Sheriff Deputy Jeff Mitchell was shot and killed in 2006 during a traffic stop in rural Sacramento County. With his own gun, after a violent altercation. My wife answered the door when the TV news crews showed up less than three hours later to generate some content. Up to that point, they hadn’t named the victim in the press. He was singly one of the sweetest men I’ve ever known, and treasured his 6 year old little boy. I suspect that if Jeff had more of a “Cop” ego, and been a little less sweet, he might have been more prepared for the altercation. I’ve no doubt that he operated by the book, but sometimes we need our enforcers to step a bit beyond.
I am not here to make enemies, but for your expressed sentiment, I reserve the two most offensive epithets I can muster. You’re a genius, and a tard. And having worked with the developmentally disabled, and witnessing the way that they make the most of their lives, and how they blossom, and cherish the purest things in life, I bestow that label on your sentiment in the harshest, most puerile and denigrating manner possible. To serve and protect sir, to serve and protect.
juanito on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
From what I can tell so far, this is not a case of a malicious or “bad” cop, it’s a case of a cop who forgot or neglected his training. That alone is a bad thing, but doesn’t make the officer or his intentions “evil”. However, police officers are given an enormous amount of power and authority and the means to exercise them, and they must be held to extremely high standards. Mistakes, especially those that result in injury or death to others, are not acceptable at any time. But let’s not confuse mistakes with criminal intent. Certainly, this officer should have to pay in some way for the result of his failure, but let’s hold off on the “murder”, “brutality”, and “put him away for life” rhetoric.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Ya know, it’s strange…If one of our troops is accused of of something similar to what this officer is, he’d automatically be considered innocent by the same people who have slapped a guilty verdict on the cop.
JetBoy on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
There also was a time, not too long ago, when it was conservatives, not progressives, who were concerned about America turning into a totalitarian police state. Partisans failing to give devils their respective dues is a large part of the reason why political discourse in this country is fast becoming impossible. I was attacking the sentiments of other posters (Darth Executor, Good Lt, et al.) more so than defending Thacker. Mankai’s statement, “I respect what cops do and have to do… but in the end, they are government agents with weapons,” could have been read into Thacker’s by anybody who was attempting to give his argument a fair shake.
It’s doubly ironic when people on HotAir insult my intelligence, and I get a real kick out of it. By all means, please continue to do so–I could use another hearty guffaw.
hicsuget on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Of course.
Where ya from, if you please? And aren’t you glad you live here – even with all of us crazy speeders?
Just don’t act like I’m endangering you. I speed on highways within reason, I’m careful around pedestrians and don’t speed in commercial or residential areas, and I love you.
Except for that last part :-D
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 1:43 PM
I agree. This doesn’t look intentional or malicious at all.
I get the feeling though that the tension in that area was very palpable. (Elsewise, why so many people videoing the cops?) So the drawing of the gun might’ve been a response to that… But I don’t think it was justified so I think this falls under gross negligence if not criminal negligence…
Skywise on January 9, 2009 at 1:44 PM
You’re apparently not aware of how many times a police officer has been shot during a “routine traffic stop”
JetBoy on January 9, 2009 at 1:45 PM
cameo on January 9, 2009 at 1:45 PM
It surprises me that there are so many paranoid people on HotAir.
Itchee Dryback on January 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
See: Mexico.
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Skywise on January 9, 2009 at 1:44 PM
It’s Oakland. We trained our officers to always act as if someone was videotaping them, because they probably were.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
+1
And Thacker routinely hijacks threads, disrupts any actual discourse about the issues at hand, is incapable of logical argument, is bigoted to the point of mental illness and should be banned.
exlibris on January 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
How come this is allowed to be on Youtube but the IDF videos aren’t?
Oh wait, I answered my own question.
Move along.
jimmy the notable on January 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Fruitvale Station? Well, that explains a lot.
You couldn’t pay me enough to be an Bay Area transit cop.
The Ugly American on January 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Cops are not soldiers dealing with thraot-slitting terrorists. The subway of Oakland, bad as it may be, is not a warzone. That person was a US citizen, not a terrorist or combatant.
Different rules, different situations. The cop here was very clearly in the wrong, just as a soldier shooting a handcuffed detainee in the back because he moved would also be wrong. That soldier who vaulted that puppy was clearly in the wrong, for g-d sakes, and was prosecuted.
Your comparison is inept.
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
The world is going to hell in a handbasket. This thread is proof.
With a few exceptions, I think police officers are good people, and I’m grateful for their service to our communities – much like I’m grateful to the military.
What on earth is happening to us?
capitalist piglet on January 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
It’s not the same thing. One is a warzone this is domestic. Soldiers are trained to shoot first ask later, police are trained to apprehend then shoot if the perp is a major threat.
I’d be the first to get this guy’s back but the video doesn’t lie.
Skywise on January 9, 2009 at 1:48 PM
I don’t even know how the hell we got off on this tangent. You’re right, just be careful. As a lawyer, I tend to look at things in terms of right and wrong, so I’m going to continue doing what I do, which is not breaking the law. I’m not trying to paint you as some uber-criminal, just saying that in terms of right and wrong, you will be the one in the wrong if there is an accident.
However, allowing yourself to drift five MPH over the limit, and speeding as a habit are two different things. Yes, I’ve made an occasional mistake when it comes to speeding. But I correct that mistake in an effort to make the road safer. Two cars getting into an accident at 70MPH are going to cause more damage than two cars getting into an accident at 55MPH, or even more damage than one car going each speed. And since you’ve pointed out that people can tend to not pay attention while driving, speeding is just one more danger to deal with on the road.
Sir Corky on January 9, 2009 at 1:48 PM
BS Jet. Those two guys throwing that Puppy, I sure as hell didn’t back up. They were there to do a job… not kill a puppy. And if you go look some of us are saying wait and see, wait for the investigation.
Don’t project.
upinak on January 9, 2009 at 1:48 PM
In Houston a cop shot an unarmed man who was on the ground in his own driveway over a car that was not stolen.
Robbie Tolan will likely live the rest of his life with a bullet lodged in his liver.
There has to be accountability for these “mistakes.” Even though I’ve always been very law and order, I’ve learned to be wary of law enforcement. Even being innocent doesn’t necessarily make you safe.
obladioblada on January 9, 2009 at 1:48 PM
OMG, Theres a Capitalist Piglet!!
CapitalistPig on January 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
cameo on January 9, 2009 at 1:45 PM
I don’t know where this officer was trained (there are 37 police academies in California), but if he was trained at a police department, as a opposed to a community college academy, the training was drilled into him before he graduated, or else he’d never have graduated…at least not from the Oaklnad PD academy. We summarily fired trainees from the program for any hint of unsafety or ignoring the safety rules.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
I can understand how this could/did happen! My goodness, this is not in any way a “simple” arrest,..these thugs in the background are yelling/screaming at the police, coming up on them, you can hear the noise level rising, I’m sure the police officers had a safety issue going on for wearing the uniform yet alone making an arrest. Sorry the guy died, but I also feel bad for the lack of respect it appears EVERY person is giving those police officers who are just trying to do the job we pay them to do and they get NO RESPECT!
BTW,..the officer does appear to maybe jump or something, it’s clear he’s shocked after the sound of the gun going off….who cares right? It’s time to burn down a neighborhood and blame someone with out knowing any of the facts. Per-norm nothing will happen to any of the people who are burning and trashing for some kind of sick justice.
christene on January 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Cops responded to call involving a fight…Small mob formed…Victim ran his mouth and resisted. Put yourself in the cop’s position…would you be nervous?
Being a cop is a tough job…
Karmi on January 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
IF you had a cop pull out his weapon and put the thing directly on the poor man’s head and pull the trigger, execution style, I think we’d have more cause to say it was intentional. There is NO WAY this cop, no matter how “racist” or “totalitarian” or whatever, would risk that knowing how many witnesses were there. It was undoubtedly an unfortunate misfire. Unless he was simply a loose cannon and emotionally unstable, rendering him unfit to serve, I’d imagine.
Mommypundit on January 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Has anyone stopped to think of the pressures they’re under when faced with an angry mob of blacks like this?
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM
The racism aside, we pay these people to be able to handle the pressures. If they can’t, they should find a less stressful line of work. Nobody forced them into these situations, they made a decision to do that work.
If a surgeon kills a loved one during an operation out of gross negligence do you say, “Oh well, think of how stressful working in an OR is”?
alex342 on January 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Are you breeding?
upinak on January 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM
From the top video it really looks like the cop pulled his gun and just had poor trigger discipline.
But I’ve no doubt that the crowd rattled the cops involved. Unfortunately for them, they have to be held at a higher standard.
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM
Welcome to Oakland.
mojo on January 9, 2009 at 1:52 PM
We hope you enjoyed your stay! Come for the view, stay for the funeral!
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 1:53 PM
While I find Thacker’s attitude toward cops to be unreasonable, his above comment was a sarcastic one in response to this:
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 1:53 PM
Are you honestly saying you didn’t think Thacker was arguing like an unhinged moron? You think you can do that and demand to be taken seriously? If so, you shouldn’t lecture anyone on what a true conservative is, because in the end nuts are apolitical.
frankj on January 9, 2009 at 1:53 PM
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM
FIFY
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Okay, that’s an important piece of info. If he had NO taser pulling the gun out would make more sense.
STILL shouldn’t have had his finger on the trigger though.
Skywise on January 9, 2009 at 1:55 PM
Oops…FIFY!
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 1:55 PM
From the top video it really looks like the cop pulled his gun and just had poor trigger discipline.
But I’ve no doubt that the crowd rattled the cops involved. Unfortunately for them, they have to be held at a higher standard.
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM
——-
Exactly.
Dave Rywall on January 9, 2009 at 1:55 PM
It is a mistake to generally assume that cops are “good people.” I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but no class of persons employed anywhere in the world in any type of job deserves that sort of automatic assumption. Not police, not firefighters, not politicians, not priests, not doctors, not military, not Supreme Court Justices sworn to ethical behavior – nobody.
People must all be judged on their individual merits alone. The cop who writes you a speeding ticket could be Officer McFriendly or Officer McPlantEvidence On You to Make his Drug Bust Quota. You have no idea.
Moreover, there was NEVER a time when police, or priests, military, doctors, etc, were “generally good people.” Human nature does not change throughout history. And human nature is, to put it bluntly, ordered towards evil. Goodness and civilizing behavior must be learned, evil is the default.
So your anguish over our current state of affairs is a result of the fact that you’re realizing that reality doesn’t mesh with your assumptions. Check your premises.
Sydney Carton on January 9, 2009 at 1:55 PM
Y’all need a refresher course on what a lot of city police officers have to deal with on a daily basis. You seem to forget all those officers put their lives on the line, just like our troops do, on a daily basis. Yes…there’s differences between cops and soldiers. What I’m saying is, aside from the “puppy” vid, most are very quick to defend the soldier, and very quick to condemn police officers.
Every time a police officer leaves his home and goes to work, he/she does so with the possiblilty that they may not come back. Think about that.
JetBoy on January 9, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Go to the reeducation camp right now!
- The Cat
P.S.
Don’t get excited. It’s prolly a sister from another litter.
MirCat on January 9, 2009 at 1:57 PM
I don’t take it back. Those thugs were escalating the situation with their mobbery and yelling. Note the continual approaching of various thugs close to the police. These things create a serious rise in tension, and tension makes things like these things happen. It has nothing to do with color, but their thuggish, mobby behavior which did not help the situation. Black or white, I don’t care. So, stop trying to racialize my comment.
blatantblue on January 9, 2009 at 1:57 PM
No. Why?
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 1:59 PM
Who do you read? :o)
Mommypundit on January 9, 2009 at 1:59 PM
I’m well aware of that. Like I said, if he had no taser, then drawing his gun was the proper thing to do.
But he STILL fired his weapon while the perp was apprehended. AT THE VERY LEAST he also impugned the safety of his fellow officers who were still on top of the perp and in the line of fire!
Skywise on January 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM
A man is dead, and the other man who killed him has ruined his own career. It’s hard to see anything good coming out of this tragedy, though I hope it will.
Christien on January 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM
I certanly didn’t ask to you to take it back, nor do I care if you do or not, nor did I racialize it. I was merely explaining a situation that was being mischaracterized by those who had missed the original comment being responded to.
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Umm no you need to ask your questions with more of a point on what you want and expect. Jet, you aren’t a bad guy…. but don’t assume. You will be put in a place you don’t care for.
I have a few APD, ST, SPD and LAPD friends… I know what they go thru as I ask them what they feel and what is going through their minds. I also have my Military friend who i wouldn’t trade for the world, but I would judge them AND my cop friends if they did something stupid and then ask WTF they were doing.
upinak on January 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Yes, police officers are frequently under a huge amount of pressure and frequently scared to death, but htis is what we train them for. The amoung of psychological testing and the amount of training to deal with pressure and fear is enormous. It’s what we as cops do for a living…deal with pressure. So I don’t really think it’s right to blame mistakes or failure to follow your training on “pressure”. I’ve been under pressure and scared off my ass a bunch of times, but the training kicks in, or should do.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM
I hope you don’t think that’s supposed to be comforting.
1. There are places where you can drive speeds higher than 70, and it’s legal. There’s no reason for the government to mandate that cars not be able to drive faster (they do that with school buses though, unless I’m mistaken).
2. What gives them the right to put up traffic lights and stop signs? It’s the same code. If you accept one, you’ve accepted the other.
I know you’re not a troll, but you really are coming off as paranoid here. Yes, the cop messed up big time here, but that doesn’t mean that all cops are out to get you.
Esthier on January 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Well, I took umbridge at the fact that some of who go slightly higher than a posted speed limit were lumped into the same breath as a criminal
I lived in North Philadelphia for five years. It was a borderline warzone. Guns were going off down the street, fights once per week in the streets, accidents, drugs, you name it.
The problem is that cops, while they face these great challenges and should have every benefit of the doubt going into an uncertain situation, are still not soldiers. They can’t treat it like a warzone, in which EVERYTHING AROUND THEM may be hostile and is fair game. In some ways, it may be tougher to be a cop, and I sympathize. My father in law and uncle are cops and I’ve heard plenty of maddening stories at creeps and thugs who get away with literally, murder, because we live in the US and not under battlefield rules.
True, but you could say that about anybody that commutes as well. If you get in a plane crash or into a deadly accident or shot or have a heart attack, it can also happen. It’s less likely to happen than with a cop, but I don’t think this is an excuse for a cop to do what was done in the video above.
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM
It does seem hard to believe that he’d shoot someone knowing full well there’s plenty of witnesses. And i agree with blatantblue about the crowd, they were turning it into a Jerry Springer like atmosphere (which always seems to be the case in these situations) before the shooting.
clearbluesky on January 9, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Does … does this mean we agree on something? Can I pretend we don’t?
I feel dirty…
You have go to slow down and click those buttons a little more carefully XD
But listen, I get it, yes for our sake we have to hold them at a higher standard. I didn’t say that because it’s obvious.
It’s unfortunate for cops because … well do YOU want to be a cop? Having to arrest someone with a hostile mob 5 feet away while you have to worry about every move the guy makes, uncertain if he’ll somehow get a gun or get the drop on you, and when you pull your weapon to protect yourself you accidentally shoot the kid and people are calling for your imprisonment? After 2 years of (possibly) dodging bullets from people who would rather shoot you than get a speeding ticket?
I mean I get it. Police have much power, and therefore much responsibility, but for all that, they have tons of rules, almost no reward, almost no recognition of their service, and the moment they do something wrong or make a mistake you get tons of people screaming OFF WITH THEIR HEAD because one time, 5 years ago, a cop was rude to them.
I would never ever be a cop.
I mean, come on, who here actually KNOWS a really good cop? Know why you don’t? Because you can make way more fame and money rapping about shooting cops than you’ll ever get by being the best cop in your whole city.
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 2:05 PM
JetBoy on January 9, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Okay, you’re right. Let’s just give all POs a hearty backslap for effort whenever they accidentally snuff out lives because their work is dangerous. No-one forces them to put their lives on the line, it’s a career choice.
Most of them presumably want to be POs, their not doing something they hate as a personal sacrifice to humanity. I respect what they do and I absolutely depend on them which is why they should be reliable.
alex342 on January 9, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Really? How obtuse.
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 2:06 PM
If I was I would be. He’s the kind of guy that starts riots.
- The Cat
MirCat on January 9, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Here’s what I was responding to…
Figures, it was a Thacker comment that got it started. He’s a racist moron, but from that little exchange and for that one little comment, I felt he was more in the right (which he then went on to show that although right in his initial statement he was wrong in his paranoid rambling reasoning).
It was a splitting hairs thing, and probably not worth all this effort. But I’m bored. :-)
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 2:06 PM
In my opinion, considering the aggressiveness of the crowd, the officers became concerned for their safety and one pulled his pistol and he accidentally caused it to discharge. This by no means excuses his action. You should only put your finger on the trigger, if you intend to discharge the weapon. Of course, that puts the officer at a disadvantage.
I wonder how many people in the crowd had weapons?
Johan Klaus on January 9, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Am I the only one who really can’t make much of anything out of any of those videos? I mean, I know it’s not really in dispute what happened, but I really can’t see anything in those vids. The only thing I can tell (from the first cell video), is that there is a struggle and obviously a lot of chaos as you see one officer radioing (possibly for back-up). Then you hear the actual chaos (in the second cell phone video). It already sounds like a riot… I’d be interested to know what is happening off camera.
The officer obviously made a mistake here, no question… but I certainly have to wonder “why” he made that mistake. Amid all the chaos, did he think he hear someone say the guy on the ground was pulling a gun? I don’t know. The whole thing is very strange, and doesn’t make sense… but those videos don’t help me much because you can’t really see anything.
RightWinged on January 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Instead of explaining your reasoning, you hurl an insult. Noted for future reference.
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Can you imagine the horror? A group of loud people on New Year’s Eve?
A Lake Tahoe newscaster seemed better equipped to handle a tough crowd.
The Race Card on January 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM
If you would have said mob it would have been one thing, but you said black mob. Like the blackness of the mob raised the stakes or something.
I think I would be just as wary of a mob of cop hating hippies in Berkley. Maybe more so because Thacker me be egging them on.
- The Cat
MirCat on January 9, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Having been a police officer all my working life, I know lots of very good cops, many of whom died in the line of duty. The vast majority of police officers whom I know and worked with weren’t there for fame, glory, or money, but because they genuinely felt an obligation to serve others. I am proud that I got to serve alongside such a group of men and women.
Incidentally, in the Bay Area cops actually do make very good money, but that’s not why they’re there…if it is, they don’t last.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM
The first one is the only one that seems clear. The cop leans back, draws his gun, and fires as he’s standing up. It really looks like it was poor trigger discipline.
The crowd’s reaction to the gunshot is pretty telling.
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM
I wonder if the cops were wondering the same thing….at least, if they had any sense of self-preservation.
Failing to comprehend the total dynamics of the situation is inexcusable….but emotionally very gratifying for those that just want to wave race-cards around and jump all over the cops.
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM
BTW, I take it the victim was white? I haven’t heard the usual suspects expressing their outrage yet.
RightWinged on January 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM
The simplest explanation demands that we see it as an accident until we prove otherwise. The theory that he purposefully shot the guy is too absurd to work as a starting point.
There were dozens of witnesses, many of whom were clearly recording it all, fellow officers all over the place, and what reason do you shoot a stranger in cold blood with all of that, when you know you’ll go to prison for murder or lose your job and your life/family/friends? It just doesn’t add up with some videos…unless we have a lot of evidence to support the idea.
People need to remember cops are in a unique position. No other job exists where you go out to confront people, some of whom will kill you if they get the chance, and you’re given deadly weapons to keep order in place, protect yourself, protect others, etc. I can imagine in some situations, you’re running on nothing BUT adrenaline, and your body simply isn’t made to do that except in short bursts.
TheBlueSite on January 9, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Quite. I’m also not seeing how a rowdy black mob is different from a rowdy mob. But perhaps LimeyGeek will take the time to explain his reasoning instead of hurling invective.
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Whatever.
There’s one of two possibilities: He’s a murderer or he’s incompetent. Either way he should go to trial and, if found guilty, to jail.
I appreciate police officers and the job they do, but if a cop can’t 1) tell the difference between a taser and his gun or 2) remember to keep the safety on he shouldn’t be a cop.
SouthernDem on January 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM
You’re not alone. I have seen the various videos several times, and even in slo-mo I really can’t tell what’s going on.
TheBlueSite on January 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM
You’re afraid of black people? No. You are afraid of your beliefs about them. You’re only 3/5ths irrational.
The Race Card on January 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Yet more obtuseness.
Or perhaps they were a mob comprised of black people. Or something really obvious like that.
And yes, their ‘blackness’ is a factor….gee, I wonder why?….white cops….black mob…..nope…can’t see any possible issues there.
Stop the naive racial-sensitivity horseshit.
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 2:15 PM
FAIL
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 2:15 PM
Limey you may wanna take your foot out of your butt and go check Baldi’s blog.
upinak on January 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
This is odd. You’ve actually been shot by cops and yet you have more faith in them than Thacker.
Then it’s the speeder’s fault. If you’re going to drive faster than the speed limit, you may not be pulled over, but you will be held accountable for what happens if you get into an accident.
Esthier on January 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Yeah, I gathered that from your post while I was typing.
And more power to you! (In the colloquial sense.) I do thank you for your service in an incredibly thankless job.
I do understand cops do to be held to a higher standard. Comes with the territory and I’m not saying cops should be in it for fame or glory, it’s just … it’d be nice if a tragedy like this happens that so many people’s first reaction wasn’t “HANG ‘EM HIGH THE SONUVABITCH” you know?
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Still unable to explain things without having a cow. Talk about obtuse.
baldilocks on January 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Agreed. It’s illogical to believe the cop shot him intentionally in front of everybody knowing it would be career ending at best. Trigger discipline is what failed here plain and simple. That makes it an accident. It’s unlikely the cop would actually decide to do something so bad for his own interest regardless of how he felt about the victim. Verdict: Fired, 1 year prison, life ban from owning weapon, city pays family restitution. Next case?
bagoh20 on January 9, 2009 at 2:17 PM
That’s why I said this earlier:
:-)
Good Lt on January 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM
As I mentioned in a previous post, there are no “accidental” shootings…someone has to pull the trigger. Rather than an accident what we have here is a failure to follow his training.
Trafalgar on January 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM
My prev reply was eaten but I still want to say thanks for your service.
apollyonbob on January 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Part of the grander problem that we face is characterized by yourself and Race Card. An almost pathologically phobic unwillingness to actually talk seriously about uncomfortable truths. It’s far easier for you to just dismiss me as a racist. Less stress on the grey cells.
Things won’t get better until you grow up and start having adult conversations.
LimeyGeek on January 9, 2009 at 2:20 PM
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