Gene Splicer on January 11, 2009 at 1:27 AM

ouch, looks like the TRUTH hurts….

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:43 AM

I merely have a BS in Mechanical Engineering from a lowly Land Grant state university.

Pelayo on January 11, 2009 at 8:42 AM

then answer the question. but you can’t

here, its easy…but you darwiniacs can’t face the truth…

the reason the tuatara shows the fastest rate of ‘micro’ evolution and yet does not show any results in its morphology, is because ‘micro’ does not add up to ‘macro’ evolution.

see its not hard…just takes a little common sense, and logic…

but with every post you darwiniacs prove the truth of the bible…

professing to be wise, they have become fools….

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:48 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 8:50 AM

yes I’ve seen many such examples of ‘caring’ atheists in the past…like:

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
Kim jon Il

so are you a racist, like darwin, and watson??

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:54 AM

Pelayo on January 11, 2009 at 8:55 AM

got the tin-foil on early I see!!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:56 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:00 AM
ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:03 AM

looks like the truth hurts…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:09 AM

maybe you guys can get some serious discussions going,

Pelayo on January 11, 2009 at 9:15 AM

here’s some examples of atheist ’serious discussions’

uh it evolved because evolution is true.

natural selection is true because if its fit, it survives

(1) assume evolution,
(2) personify Nature,
(3) wave the magic wand of millions of years

and SHAZAM miracles happen Gomer!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:20 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:18 AM

at least my God is not a hairy racist…but you know what they say about being in your god’s image…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:22 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:22 AM

you have no idea…*smirk*

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:23 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:26 AM

clever atheists…an oxymoron…strike the oxy…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:28 AM

I’m sure Satan loves you.

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:29 AM

well you WOULD know *his* will much better than I would…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:31 AM

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 9:53 AM

truth isn’t up for a vote.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 10:00 AM

duhhhhhhhh

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 10:02 AM

I’ll check back later…I know it takes you a while to come up with a response!!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 10:17 AM

Pelayo on January 11, 2009 at 2:29 PM

and the biggest fools of all are atheists!! we’ll see who has the last laugh, now won’t we???

if you’re right…I lose nothing…if I’m right…I hope you like warm ‘weather’….if you end up there….you’ll have plenty of time on your hands, so I hope you remember me!!

have a nice day!!!!! better make the most of the time you have left…just in case!!! *smirk*

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 2:33 PM

That would be the same type that look forward to watching people being tortured by their god like you have stated

you won’t be tortured…you’ll get JUSTICE…and isn’t that a good thing?? and what are so AFRAID of??? hmmmm??? you atheists are SOOOOOOO upset by the concept of hell…but you don’t believe it anyway…so why all the angst??? hmmmmm????

uh who posted to WHOM first in this thread?? hmmmmm?? *smirk*
Wow. You really are intellectually dishonest, aren’t you?

looks like the truth hurts doesn’t it sonny?? you’re a liar.

The more pertinent question would be who posted comments to the other on this forum first related to this story. And that would be you posting comments to me based upon an conversation I was having with RightWinged.

you’re a lying piece of trash. my first comment was to ‘floatingrock’ then my next one was not a response to anyone…then ‘ronsfi’ started to reply to me…

uhhhh well why didn’t you??? hmmmmm?? you could show us how ‘logical’ and ‘brilliant’ you are…but you didn’t…why not???
Actually, I have. Again, you ignore that which you cannot or will not face rationally. Name calling and looking forward to the torture of others you seem to have mastered, but not rational thought or even civility.

more lies and BS.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 2:41 PM

Well, historical contingency — and macroevolution — have both been demonstrated by Richard Lenski in a long-running laboratory experiment using the bacterium Escherichia coli.

really? and what did it ‘evolve’ into??? bacteria than can use citrate….ITS STILL A BACTERIA…duhhhhhhh

as BEHE SAYS::

I discuss Lenski’s fascinating work in Chapter 7 of The Edge of Evolution, pointing out that all of the beneficial mutations identified from the studies so far seem to have been degradative ones, where functioning genes are knocked out or rendered less active. So random mutation much more easily breaks genes than builds them, even when it helps an organism to survive. That’s a very important point. A process which breaks genes so easily is not one that is going to build up complex coherent molecular systems of many proteins, which fill the cell.

In his new paper Lenski reports that, after 30,000 generations, one of his lines of cells has developed the ability to utilize citrate as a food source in the presence of oxygen. (E. coli in the wild can’t do that.) Now, wild E. coli already has a number of enzymes that normally use citrate and can digest it (it’s not some exotic chemical the bacterium has never seen before). However, the wild bacterium lacks an enzyme called a “citrate permease” which can transport citrate from outside the cell through the cell’s membrane into its interior. So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell. The rest of the machinery for its metabolism was already there. As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1)

Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.)

The major point Lenski emphasizes in the paper is the historical contingency of the new ability. It took trillions of cells and 30,000 generations to develop it, and only one of a dozen lines of cells did so. What’s more, Lenski carefully went back to cells from the same line he had frozen away after evolving for fewer generations and showed that, for the most part, only cells that had evolved at least 20,000 generations could give rise to the citrate-using mutation. From this he deduced that a previous, lucky mutation had arisen in the one line, a mutation which was needed before a second mutation could give rise to the new ability. The other lines of cells hadn’t acquired the first, necessary, lucky, “potentiating” (1) mutation, so they couldn’t go on to develop the second mutation that allows citrate use. Lenski argues this supports the view of the late Steven Jay Gould that evolution is quirky and full of contingency. Chance mutations can push the path of evolution one way or another, and if the “tape of life” on earth were re-wound, it’s very likely evolution would take a completely different path than it has.

I think the results fit a lot more easily into the viewpoint of The Edge of Evolution. One of the major points of the book was that if only one mutation is needed to confer some ability, then Darwinian evolution has little problem finding it. But if more than one is needed, the probability of getting all the right ones grows exponentially worse. “If two mutations have to occur before there is a net beneficial effect — if an intermediate state is harmful, or less fit than the starting state — then there is already a big evolutionary problem.” (4) And what if more than two are needed? The task quickly gets out of reach of random mutation.

To get a feel for the clumsy ineffectiveness of random mutation and selection, consider that the workers in Lenski’s lab had routinely been growing E. coli all these years in a soup that contained a small amount of the sugar glucose (which they digest easily), plus about ten times as much citrate. Like so many cellular versions of Tantalus, for tens of thousands of generations trillions of cells were bathed in a solution with an abundance of food — citrate — that was just beyond their reach, outside the cell. Instead of using the unreachable food, however, the cells were condemned to starve after metabolizing the tiny bit of glucose in the medium — until an improbable series of mutations apparently occurred. As Lenski and co-workers observe: (1)

Such a low rate suggests that the final mutation to Cit+ is not a point mutation but instead involves some rarer class of mutation or perhaps multiple mutations. The possibility of multiple mutations is especially relevant, given our evidence that the emergence of Cit+ colonies on MC plates involved events both during the growth of cultures before plating and during prolonged incubation on the plates.

In The Edge of Evolution I had argued that the extreme rarity of the development of chloroquine resistance in malaria was likely the result of the need for several mutations to occur before the trait appeared. Even though the evolutionary literature contains discussions of multiple mutations (5), Darwinian reviewers drew back in horror, acted as if I had blasphemed, and argued desperately that a series of single beneficial mutations certainly could do the trick. Now here we have Richard Lenski affirming that the evolution of some pretty simple cellular features likely requires multiple mutations.

If the development of many of the features of the cell required multiple mutations during the course of evolution, then the cell is beyond Darwinian explanation. I show in The Edge of Evolution that it is very reasonable to conclude they did.

HERES THE LINK SO LYING ATHEISTS CAN SEE IT

much ado about nothing…sorry.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 2:49 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

I’ve already covered the nylon eating bacteria in the other thread…sigh….ITS STILL A BACTERIA is the main point…

The problem with this argument is that Miller fails to show that the construction/evolution of nylonase from its precursor actually requires CSI at all. As I develop the concept, CSI requires a certain threshold of complexity to be achieved (500 bits, as I argue in my book No Free Lunch). It’s not at all clear that this threshold is achieved here (certainly Miller doesn’t compute the relevant numbers). Nor is it clear that in the evolution of nylonase that anything like pure neo-Darwinism was operating. Instead, we see something much more like what James Shapiro describes as “natural genetic engineering” (go here). And how do systems that do their own genetic engineering arise? According to Shapiro, Darwinism (whether neo or otherwise) offers no insight here.

HERE’S THE LINK SO LYING ATHEISTS DON’T MISS IT

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 2:54 PM

now ‘genie’ why don’t you try responding to my point about the TUATARA…since I have responded to your points???

Hmmmmm?? whassa matter…don’t have any darwiniac talking points on this subject??? hmmmmm???

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM

And keep in mind you claimed I believe that there are no such a thing as a beneficial mutation.

its also OBVIOUS you don’t understand what I post…

The tendency for genetic architectures to exhibit epistasis among mutations plays a central role in the modern synthesis of evolutionary biology and in theoretical descriptions of many evolutionary processes. Nevertheless, few studies unquestionably show whether, and how, mutations typically interact. Beneficial mutations are especially difficult to identify because of their scarcity. Consequently, epistasis among pairs of this important class of mutations has, to our knowledge, never before been explored. Interactions among genome components should be of special relevance in compacted genomes such as those of RNA viruses. To tackle these issues, we first generated 47 genotypes of vesicular stomatitis virus carrying pairs of nucleotide substitution mutations whose separated and combined deleterious effects on fitness were determined. Several pairs exhibited significant interactions for fitness, including antagonistic and synergistic epistasis. Synthetic lethals represented 50% of the latter. In a second set of experiments, 15 genotypes carrying pairs of beneficial mutations were also created. In this case, all significant interactions were antagonistic. Our results show that the architecture of the fitness depends on complex interactions among genome components.

THIS IS THE LINK SO LYING ATHEISTS DON’T MISS IT

I posted this yesterday in the following thread:

right4life on January 10, 2009 at 1:31 PM

even had ronsfi LIE about me not posting a link…and of course ‘it’ hasn’t apologized…no surprise there…he’s typical trash.

but the whole article is about the effects of BENEFICIAL MUTATIONS…DUHHHHHHHHH

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 3:16 PM

Ah, yes, the “justice” claim. And as with the previously mentioned David Enjay, he too believed that him murdering millions in the name of his god was just justice as well.
You can all it want you want, but the fact remains. You look forward to seeing those you hate being tortured and harmed.

more lies…didn’t think you’d have the honor and decency to apologize…you’re trash. no surprise.

You can keep calling me all the names you want, but the thread and your actions prove me correct. In the related thread, as I stated, you commented to me first and did so in reply to a conversation I was having with RightWinged.
Are you now going to say the forum is a liar since it doesn’t back up your claims?

again you’re a liar. try reading the thread on page 2, you respond to me first. I was talking to ronsfi…when you butted in…liar.

ronsfi on January 10, 2009 at 7:05 PM
uh moron I have a MS degree and work in a scientific field. and you can’t argue with what I post…all you can do is spew ignorance and hatred like a typical darwiniac.

laughable.

right4life on January 10, 2009 at 8:20 PM

and then you responded to that…with your typical bile and hatred…

right4life
uh moron I have a MS degree and work in a scientific field.
Really? And what field of science would that be? Considering you think science must include your god in order to be proper and you cannot grasp the nature of how science or scientific theories work, I doubt the veracity of your boast.
Later hater…

Gene Splicer on January 10, 2009 at 11:39 PM

liar. game set match, liar!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 5:33 PM

more lies and BS.
Yes, like the lie that I commented to you first?

BWAHAAHHAHAHAHAH the stupdity is amazing!!! no wonder you believe in evolution…its a lie…and you OBVIOUSLY are a liar…it matches your nature!!

You tried to claim that I was the one who first commented to you. That is erroneous. I don’t care who else you spoke to on that thread. The fact remains that you first commented to me and not the other way around as you erroneously claim.

you sure are stuck on STUPID!! liar, liar, liar!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

as BEHE SAYS::
Behe has been exposed as a lair or just your typical xian apologist who will say and do what he must in order to push his religion onto others and have it taught in schools. Good think it was and is recognized for the pseudoscience it is.

I just blew you claim of ‘evolution’ out of the water, you’re just too stupid to get it…but you stick with lies, obviously!!

much ado about nothing…sorry.
And finally we have more simplistic dismissal.

yeah its REAL SIMPLE to dismiss such stupidity…its not ‘evolution’ its a mutation…and its STILL A BACTERIA…duhhhhhh laughable!!

a lie…post your proof. or apologize.
You claim I lied and up to you to prove it. Or you can apologize for you comment aobut looking forward to seeing people tortured.

just did AGAIN…liar.

And again, you source is a xian apologist site. Why can you find nothing of scientific fact to back up your claims?

The fact remains that the bacteria was able via a beneficial mutation to take advantage of a new food source.

and the fact remains its STILL A BACTERIA!! duhhhh so after all that ‘evolving’ going on…that bacteria is still a bacteria!! too funny!!

Then there is the fact that if you threatened anyone there or made comments about looking forward to people being tortured in the name of your god, your ISP might be contacted over a violation of the forum TOS.

I’ve been threatened here before too..by bkennedy..and madisonconservative…neither were banned. are you gonna threaten me too?? its you wacko atheists that threaten people…but so far none of you had the guts to make good on it…

Translation – you are a coward and a text troll who must hide in comments rather than debate in a real forum. And again, nice copying of my claim of threats.

yeah you wouldn’t say that to my face punk azz boy…if you want to though I know a nice place you can meet me and tell me I’m a coward, and whatever else you want to my face…I made the same offer to bkenendy…but he wasn’t having any…how about you??

still nothing about the tuatara….no surprise…don’t have talking points do you, you lying piece of trash.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 5:44 PM

You claim that science has becomes atheistic. You keep avoiding this topic and a very telling action on your part.

more lies and BS..as usual…I’ve posted many quotes about this topic…like this one…

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.”

Provine, William B. [Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University], “, “Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life”, Abstract of Will Provine’s 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 6:20 PM

And then there is the claim that atheists silence people yet the case you cited you failed to post the follow-up where his freedom of speech was upheld. I wonder why?

and you have no problem with the lies (no surprise there) and smear job that the darwinaics did to this guy? there is no telling how much his career has been damaged…

and you have no problem with the fascist darwiniacs…because his freedom of speech was upheld…it shouldn’t have had to be ‘upheld’ moron.

I’m done with you. no more casting pearls before swine like you.

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 6:22 PM

but you can’t respond, because you don’t have your little darwiniac talking points, and independent thinking isn’t your strong point, OBVIOUSLY. *smirk*

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 6:25 PM

Bye, “smirk”

Pelayo on January 11, 2009 at 6:28 PM

thanks for the laughs…AGAIN *smirk* BWAHAHAHAHAHHAH

and thanks for proving the bible…professing to be wise they have become fools…

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Gene Splicer on January 11, 2009 at 7:06 PM

one last thing…thanks for laughs!! you prove stupid is as stupid does with every post!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 7:30 PM

*smirk* heh.

ronsfi on January 11, 2009 at 8:09 PM

*smirk* *beh* *ceh* *deh* *feh* *geh* *heh* *jeh* *keh* *leh* *meh* *neh* *peh* *qeh* *seh* *teh* *veh* *weh* *xeh* *yeh* *zeh*

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:32 PM

And if I call you bluff, the predictable outcome will be that you demand I meet you in your area which conveniently will not be anywhere near me.

and DUHHHHHH dumbazz, how do I know where you live???? huh???? pathetically stupid….

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 8:55 PM

we’d have a nice little chat!! you can call me all the names you want to!! and then you can come back on here and tell everyone how tough you are!!

you might even be able to convert me to worship your hairygod darwin!!

think of it as a missionary trip!!

right4life on January 11, 2009 at 9:01 PM