Somehow I’m guessing this isn’t what most people thought they were getting when they voted for Obama’s message of hope-n-change…

jim m on January 7, 2009 at 6:26 PM

OK, this is an old thread now (sorry, I was at an IOM conference all day yesterday), but jim m, what you’re showing is not that the U.S. pays all the R&D costs for Pharma, but that the authors of the table you excerpted for us normed U.S. costs to 100.

Now, your post may not have been intended as a response to my point (I couldn’t really tell), but just so you know, you haven’t answered my point.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your system in a non-condescending way. Although it does seem that America is already paying for a socialized system that most can’t use. So in essence, you are paying for Health Care, twice (please correct me if I am wrong).

Yes, I do prefer the Canadian system, but it is what I am used to. I would imagine that if I were an American I would feel the same as many of you do. We bring to the table what we know. A difference of opinion is just that – a difference of opinion. Time to bring on an intelligent and respectful debate – keep the insults for the playground…

No, I’m not double paying; everyone receives Medicare and Social Security regardless of their income. Medicaid is seen as similar to food stamps and welfare, aid to the poor and not something that you want to be on. It is actually quite awful. The gov’t is notorious for not paying doctors enough, and many doctors will not accept new Medicaid patients. I do resent the fact that families making more than me are getting some of the other assistance programs, but it is not because I want that health care. It’s because they should be paying for their own healthcare!! I’m paying taxes for someone to freeload.

Frankly, if a single payer system was put in place in the U.S., I’d actually be worse off. Hillary Clinton tried to socialize healthcare in the early 1990s, and I remember that the “gold” plan was $200/ month. I currently get the gold plan for $55/ month. I make $42K/ year which is really stretching to make ends meet in Chicago where I live and cannot afford to pay $200/ month on insurance. I’d be forced into a crappy basic plan that all the poor people would receive, so it would really diminish my current level of care. It’s basically a socialistic type of system.. taking from the haves and redistributing it so everyone’s equal.

Love that CS Lewis quote.

Two doctors in California had the California Supreme Court rule that they couldn’t turn down a lesbian wanting artificial insemination from their offices, even though both doctors referred her to doctors that would do it.

When the government is the insurer, they can tell you what you have to do or not do, no matter what your religious or other moral/ethical objections you have. Private insurance companies don’t do this because if a doctor refuses to accept their insurance they become less desirable to consumers and lose on the premium end.

Remember what you ‘hear’ may not always be a fact. I wonder if those stories you ‘heard’ came from Toronto news right about the time of Mike Harris (a Conservative) where every union was screaming horror stories from health care to education. I personally have never heard of anyone getting turned away from a hospital in an emergency situation to die on the street. Just as in the States, if a hospital is to busy to treat a patient, you are transferred to another that can.

pcbedamned on January 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM

I can appreciate your skepticism about what people “hear,” but I’m not talking about something I heard on a news report, or read in a blog. I’m referring to a personal story I heard straight from someone’s mouth. And I wasn’t referring to Canada when I said that either, maybe Canada has a better policy regarding serious injuries even when their hospitals are full.

Noelie on January 8, 2009 at 1:10 PM

I guess you like the other poster failed to notice the ‘ ‘ around ‘free health care’. More time needs to spent on reading and comprehension skills. I, as every other Canadian, know that our health care is not ‘free’. As for not yet being seriously ill, I personally have been fortunate in that area (aside from only 1 life threatening issue), but have had family members who have been or are. And I have yet to visit their grave sites while still visiting them in their homes. (P.S. – condescension does not = smart)

You’re lucky then, I’ve heard horror stories of people with very serious injury being turned away from hospitals because they were full and couldn’t treat them.
Sir Corky on January 8, 2009 at 12:15 PM

Remember what you ‘hear’ may not always be a fact. I wonder if those stories you ‘heard’ came from Toronto news right about the time of Mike Harris (a Conservative) where every union was screaming horror stories from health care to education. I personally have never heard of anyone getting turned away from a hospital in an emergency situation to die on the street. Just as in the States, if a hospital is to busy to treat a patient, you are transferred to another that can.

Illinidiva on January 7, 2009 at 8:46
PM

Thank you for taking the time to explain your system in a non-condescending way. Although it does seem that America is already paying for a socialized system that most can’t use. So in essence, you are paying for Health Care, twice (please correct me if I am wrong).

Yes, I do prefer the Canadian system, but it is what I am used to. I would imagine that if I were an American I would feel the same as many of you do. We bring to the table what we know. A difference of opinion is just that – a difference of opinion. Time to bring on an intelligent and respectful debate – keep the insults for the playground…

Yup!

The costs to treat the medical effects of those two “lifestyle choices” are astronomical and the effects of the diseases and other complications arising from them are so destructive for both the participant and their loved ones.

It will be interesting to see how they handle this. Because if their true intent is to make everyone be “healthier” thus reducing health care costs they will have to impose stiff sanctions against any and all who participate in these destructive behaviors. If they refuse to do anything about them then it shows their hypocrisy and is absolutely the worst thing you can do to any of these sanctimonious idiots. It sends them shrieking for cover like a 7 year old girl who got caught with no clothes on.

As a Canadian born, but one that fortunately is smart enough to see why you are laughing so hard, just remember if they don’t “see” the bill, in their little land of denial, it’s free.

The other thing you know about this poster is that they haven’t gotten really ill yet. When they do, they might not like their “free” health care quite so much.

Noelie on January 8, 2009 at 1:10 PM

My sister (who, coincidentally, works in the health care field) once told me that nothing in this life is free. Every thing has a price, even when you don’t see it.

Just look at Cuba. Look at the hell they have endured for fifty years (!). But hey! They’ve got “Free Health Care“!

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. – C.S. Lewis

National Healthcare means a 10 month wait for space in the maternity ward.

tarpon on January 7, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Don’t scare me! I just preregistered at my regional hospital’s maternity ward. And I’m due in February.

Free? BWAHAHAHAH

As a Canadian born, but one that fortunately is smart enough to see why you are laughing so hard, just remember if they don’t “see” the bill, in their little land of denial, it’s free.

The other thing you know about this poster is that they haven’t gotten really ill yet. When they do, they might not like their “free” health care quite so much.

It’s the tonkatsu and Asahi beer that are the real keys, not soy and fish.

Well you probably are more correct, and that is coming from a Mormon. If they ate as much soy as everyone thought there is reason to think their health declining in a disastrous way.

But then one of the favorite myths of our culture is that exercise and a veggie diet will save you.

So that pretty much leaves your fish and the beer :)

in_awe on January 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM

I agree that the preexisting rule has to be fixed and think that your other idea is a sensible solution. Right now, the market in health care is pretty skewed. I’m not sure that many people even know how much a doctor charges the insurance company per visit and would be horrified to know that it’s generally at least $100 even if it is for a simple illness like a cold or the flu.

I just hate liberals sometimes. As smart as some are, they all seem to be afflicted with an infantile psychology that makes everything seem more important, dire, dangerous, etc., than it really is. Their only solution is greater external control, after which they falsely cry “Nazi” at everyone involved. Protect me, but not like that. Give me money, but without labels and milestones. Feed me, clothe me, help me, but then don’t be offended if I act like an ingrate. Me, me, me … it just gets really old.

They do smoke…a lot in fact. This is somewhat mitigated by diet and lifestyle. Everybody bikes or walks at least a few miles per day and their diet is heavy on soy and fish.

Asher on January 8, 2009 at 10:19 AM

The other aspect to consider about Japanese smokers is that they smoke charcoal-filtered cigarettes, which filter certain classes of carcinogen.

As a Canadian (and a Conservative one at that), I would not trade my ‘free health care’ for anything

Free? BWAHAHAHAH

My wife has leukemia and I am unemployed. Should she lose her job through which we get our group health insurance, she would essentially be stripped of coverage for her pre-exiting leukemia condition in any individual coverage private plan. Certainly we would invoke COBRA coverage at 3x/month in premiums but that runs out after 18 months. This is where I believe that some safety net coverage might be considered.

Do I recall that the nuanced language in the last debates about nationalized healthcare extended coverage to people here illegally? Presumably as a group they would not pay 100% of the premiums due through withholding since many work off the books. They also are reintroducing diseases to the US that have previously been rare or eradicated here. (LA now has infection rates like a Central American country for some infectious tropical diseases.) Would it be considered racist or xenophobic to close the borders or deport based on the incipient healthcare costs for said illegals?

Finally, would the nanny state also create a “progressive” premium scale to adjust premiums based on wealth rather than physical attributes like age and health status?

Although I know you were being facetious (or at least I hope you were), I really have to wonder where you Yanks are getting your info (or should I say, propaganda) from.
As a Canadian (and a Conservative one at that), I would not trade my ‘free health care’ for anything. I like knowing that if I, or anyone else in my family gets sick, I will NOT lose my house or life savings. And contrary to what you all might hear, No One in my family has ever had a bad experience with our Health Care system. That either makes us all the luckiest SOB’s in Canada, or the crap you are hearing is blown way out of proportion. Not sure which one of those I prefer…

pcbedamned on January 7, 2009 at 5:00 PM

You’re lucky then, I’ve heard horror stories of people with very serious injury being turned away from hospitals because they were full and couldn’t treat them.

With our system, if you have a life threatening injury, a hospital has to treat you, insurance or not. You or your family member might walk out of there with a hefty bill, but at least they have a chance of walking out of there. And I’m more concerned with still having my family than still having my house or money.

Meanwhile, I just read on Drudge that world leaders are calling for a new world order in which an international board reviews government economic policies the way the UN now reviews military adventurism.

These are hard days for Liberty. It behooves every one of us who understands the fundamental necessity of human liberty to articulate the principles of liberty everywhere, as often as possible, so we don’t forget.

Asher on January 8, 2009 at 10:19 AM

It’s the tonkatsu and Asahi beer that are the real keys, not soy and fish.

Doesn’t Japan have the highest percentage of smokers in the world?

JeffinSac on January 7, 2009 at 7:29 PM

They do smoke…a lot in fact. This is somewhat mitigated by diet and lifestyle. Everybody bikes or walks at least a few miles per day and their diet is heavy on soy and fish.