I realize that real history isn’t your forte, as much as going along with the Hollywood crowd is to you, (Yeah.. I read what you said, and fell out of my chair laughing at you..)

But let’s see if you can give us a good run down on just what happened to the world at large when Rome fell. I know you wonder about the point, but there really is one.

Just as everyone once were able to get great goods, and at a price that even the poor could afford. Then folks like you got to tearing apart the empire… and even the places that made the good pots, didn’t have them anymore.. and we had a long, very dark age.

The dots you just can’t seem to connect, is that the middle east, and the very unstable nature of Islamic fundamentalism, and yet it’s hold on one very precious resource make for a difference to say… what is going on in other unstable places, as sympathetic to their cause I am.

They had brought the war here, sweet pea, and long before 9/11 although you would think that wake up call would have been enough for lugheads in general to get it, but you are proof that it is not. For other’s calling for Jeffersonian protectionism.. it’s all well and good, but if you think your life will get easier, and cheaper, when you can’t get goods in from other places becauee the stranglehold of islamic hatred for everything else in the world gets in the way of that, I have a hunch you will see it in a different light.

However, I also realize that in that instance you won’t get why you can’t get the cheap goods anymore. You just haven’t got enough of a clue. And it all boils down to a strong military doing their job in a place and time, where borders and war have become a very different thing than Mr Jefferson could have even imagined.

And one more request: for you folks that just have to drone on about “moral authority”, just stop. You don’t even understand the basic moral principle that people, and a country have the DIVINE RIGHT to defend themselves with a defense that obliterates their offenders completely. You never got that lesson in Kindergarten, I guess.

I was just wondering what would happen if canada started lobbing rockets in maine? or just maybe mexico started bombing arizona? how many rocket attacks, bombs, or mortar shells should the u.s. tolerate before we act? i wonder.

TomLawler on January 5, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Hilarious. I actually just brought that up in the Catch-22 Headline article. My thinking is that Israel’s consistently weak response to their enemies is a symptom of America’s cowardice. Are they still responsible for their lot? Of course they are. I just think that a very strong statement from America in support of our allies and in direct opposition to their enemies would change everything.

Could you imagine if the President publicly congratulated Israel on their restraint, reminded the world of why this isn’t about Israel being a bully, and then proceeded to tell Israel that if they choose to take back Gaza and the West Bank that they have our support?

The big issue is that America is afraid to stand for something…even if that stand is for freedom. If only we would lead I think so many would follow.

I was just wondering what would happen if canada started lobbing rockets in maine? or just maybe mexico started bombing arizona? how many rocket attacks, bombs, or mortar shells should the u.s. tolerate before we act? i wonder.

TomLawler on January 5, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Unless I am mistaken, the Mexican military is already shooting at U.S. border patrol agents in south Texas and Arizona.

I have heard that the press was on the military’s side in WWII. Or was that just because we were on the same side as the USSR?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Whew, that’s gonna leave a mark.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Exactly, for the reason you listed and another good one, a saying that my dad keeps repeating:

There’s always more that you don’t know than you do.

If they don’t pretty much eradicate Hamas, this will not be a success. drjohn on January 5, 2009 at 8:04 AM

If they don’t set up sterilization centers, this will not be a success.

Waterboy on January 5, 2009 at 7:44 AM

ha ha I think that was written after Israel goofed around last time. Hamas must have taken it seriously. Oh well live (or die) and learn.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 8:50 PM

That’s true. Misdirected anger by those who feel powerless against the power of government sometimes do stupid things. It is hard to forgive them. Some who openly apologize I personally forgive. The others who feel that disrespecting the vets was justified are usually self important egomaniacs who we don’t need in our lives anyway. I don’t miss them. Many people don’t know that on the night the south surrendered Abe Lincoln had the band play Dixie to honor those who fell defending the south. Some people are insensitive to the feelings and experiences of others. That is their cross to bear.

That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.
doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Nothing wrong with that sentiment. The sad thing is that more and more of the men of the “Greatest Generation” that held and passed on that sentiment to some of us are passing away every day. Sometimes I fear that the Republic is passing on with them.

But be proud of who you are dorian, and proud of the men who made you who you are.

It is okay to feel anger at what happened. I know how easy it is to target the vet. Heck the protesters did that as a matter of choice thinking they could get at the “establishment” somehow.
kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM

Perhaps that is where some of the anger over Vietnam comes from. I know it does in my case, I tend to lash out at comments that I interpret to indicate that the war was not noble or was fought for the wrong reasons. It’s the same with my feelings on the war between the states. My ancestors were not slaveholders they fought for what they believed was a noble cause as did my family members that perished in Vietnam. We get a little upset when we perceive (rightly or wrongly) that folks don’t honor that sacrifice.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM

Thank you.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 8:21 PM

I lack the eloquence to express it as you do, that is one of my shames. What I feel I feel with a burning passion. Defame those I hold in the utmost regard and you have made an enemy for life of me. I am what I am, and pretend to be nothing else. I am not always right and am not afraid to admit it when someone can show it to be so.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Excellent quotations thank you.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

It is okay to feel anger at what happened. I know how easy it is to target the vet. Heck the protesters did that as a matter of choice thinking they could get at the “establishment” somehow. All they did was alienate a generation of vets against anything they did. Even today we vets do not trust many of them. John Kerry a vet…Jane Fonda a traitor…we’ll never forget and probably never forgive them. What you feel is normal especially if you were a child at the time. Children are not equiped emotionally to deal with the cruel realities of war. Do not worry. We vets know where you are coming from. You should not think we don’t understand, we do. The pain you feel is justified. You were traumatized just as many of us were. Keep the faith. If you attack us of course we’ll defend ourselves but we know in our heart you really mean the government policies during that time. Do not feel guilty. Hang in there, you are one of the most respected here. Your family taught you an honorable value system and you show respect to them by living it.

That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

The true patriotism, the only rational patriotism, is loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government ONLY when it deserves it.
- Mark Twain

My kind of loyalty was to one’s country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to. Institutions and officeholders are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death.
- Mark Twain

Actually most all of the book is criticizing the civilian “leadership” and the Joint Chiefs for rolling over to them.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Strangely enough I feel that you understand my frustration. It’s not even so much that we disagree, hell Col. Hackworth, H.R and many others I respect circle around the same issues. We fucked up and it cost many many lives. Anger is what I know and feel about this issue.

I may have been but a child, but people that I knew and cared about died. The people I knew were not politicians or command level officers, they were just grunts. I refuse to assign any level of blame to them.

I want to strike out at someone for their deaths, and to my shame, you are the person most accessible. Sometimes the things you say, whether right or wrong, seem to suggest that those responsible were my friends.

Col. Hackworth once said that he was given an unwinnable war, and he felt his obligation was to prosecute to the very best of his abilities. That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.

I know in a very intellectual sense that there is room for dissent within the parameters of what constitutes the best way to achieve this goal. But somehow that very needful dissent often strikes me as an attack against those who represent the ideal in my mind of those who are the United States Military.

CarolynM on January 4, 2009 at 9:03 AM

OK, here it goes:
Most of them are ignorant of their own ignorance, are easily lead and are far too easily influenced by empty rhetoric and pretty pictures.
Even supposedly intelligent liberals love pretty pictures and feel-good stories wrapped with a pink bow. It sure beats thinking.
My daughter loves those things too, but she is 9 years old.