Israel invades Gaza; Update: “A lengthy operation”
posted at 1:38 pm on January 3, 2009 by Allahpundit
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Just a headline so far and no one else is reporting it, but they’ve been shelling northern Gaza since this morning to prepare the way so it’s not unexpected.
Now the JPost is reporting it too. Stand by for updates.
Update: From the JPost, big dividends from good intel:
The IAF also hit the home of senior Hamas commander Abu Zacharia Al-Jamal. A Hamas spokesman announced that al-Jamal was killed in the attack, which would make him the third senior operative in the group to be targeted in the past three days.
More:
Israeli defense officials said some 10,000 troops, including tank, artillery and special operations units, were massed on the Gaza border and prepared to invade. They said top commanders were split over whether to send in ground forces, in part because such an operation could lead to heavy casualties but also because they believed Hamas already had been dealt a heavy blow. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were classified discussions.
Fox News reported earlier that Israeli leaders had okayed a ground assault while the Telegraph claimed that they’d nixed it, so it’s safe to conclude this wasn’t done without serious misgivings. I’m actually surprised they went in: They can’t stop the rockets and they surely don’t want to reoccupy, so the only goal realistically is to bloody Hamas’s nose. But they’ve already done that with the airstrikes. Upping the ante by sending in infantry only leaves them vulnerable to a 2006 scenario where Hamas “wins” by surviving. According to Haaretz, Arab leaders told Olmert, “Go in if you must, but don’t dare fail.” What will “failure” look like? What, specifically, are they after? Hamas leaders or Qassam caches, or something else?
If they’d called a ceasefire unilaterally and said, “Let that be a lesson to you,” Hamas would have fired off a few rockets and declared victory. Some victory, though — Israel’s killed several big jihadi fish and plenty of littler ones, and hit dozens of military targets with virtually no casualties on its own side. Now it’s got men in harm’s way and propaganda opportunities galore for the enemy in the form of the “resistance” chucking rocks at tanks while the media spoons it up. Exit question: Isn’t Hamas going to fire off rockets and declare victory anyway after the ground assault?
Update: The point of the war, eloquently stated by a commenter at Commentary: “The military campaign as a whole to the extent that it is conducted effectively, will greatly reduce the number of people existing right now who wish to and are capable of harming Israel. On its own terms, that’s all it can accomplish, and that’s enough. Whether it makes a few people angry in Pakistan is an incalculable-unless, for reasons of your own, you wish to give those who can rent a mob, buy colorful anti-Israel banners, and get themselves on CNN veto power over Israeli policies.”
Update: The JPost says the goal of the operation is to destroy Hamas infrastructure and seize control of launching pads in the north. For how long, though? Until they pull out in two weeks and the pads are re-seized by Hamas?
Update: I’ve said this before, but however slanted you think American media is against Israel, it really doesn’t even approach British media.
Update: “Tens of thousands” of reservists are on their way up.
Update: An IDF spokesman says there are “many, many targets,” so the world shouldn’t hold its breath waiting for a pullout. Question: Are we to infer from the timing that Obama greenlit the operation? I remember people like John Bolton speculating months ago that the IAF would make a run on Iran sometime between the election and the inauguration, partly to avoid putting the new president on the spot and partly to eliminate the possibility that he’d stop them from acting once in office. This ain’t Iran, but the principle still applies. Did The One sign off on this, or did Israel act now precisely so that he wouldn’t have to?
Update: Bits and pieces of video from the invasion.
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Update: Isn’t this operation destined to be finished by Inauguration Day or very shortly thereafter? Obama’s not going to complicate his peace plans by tolerating a long Israeli incursion right out of the chute. They’re on the clock.
Update: A few careless statements from Israeli pols give the NYT all the reason it needs to up the ante further and ask whether anything short of destroying Hamas will do.
Vice Premier Haim Ramon went even further Friday night in an interview on Israeli television, saying Israel must not end this operation with Hamas in charge of Gaza.
“What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” Mr. Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”…
“If the war ends in a draw, as expected, and Israel refrains from reoccupying Gaza, Hamas will gain diplomatic recognition,” wrote Aluf Benn, a political analyst, in the newspaper Haaretz on Friday. “No matter what you call it,” he added, “Hamas will obtain legitimacy.”…
[E]ven if Israel intends to hold back from completely overthrowing Hamas, its choice of assault tactics could head that way anyway. And the Israelis may already be facing a kind of mission creep: after all, if enough of Hamas’s infrastructure is destroyed, the prospect of governing Gaza, a densely populated, refugee-filled area whose weak economy has been devastated by the Israeli-led boycott, will be exceedingly difficult.
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“I seem to have walked into an alternate reality…are people in this thread really celebrating a war which will leave many civilians dead?”
Are you serious?
artist on January 3, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Having been to Gaza and seeing what a ****hole it is, this can only be an improvement.
But there is no fixing Hamas or the Palestinian mentality. They are the most self destructive people who have managed to bat 1.000 on making the wrong decisions for the last 60 years. A remarkable record of failure that does not appear to be broken anytime soon.
Mr. Joe on January 3, 2009 at 2:30 PM
War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over
- William Tecumseh Sherman
MB4 on January 3, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Absolutely not, what everyone here is celebrating is Israel finding the courage to defend itself against terrorists dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Operation Cast Lead?
No, we need to come up with a better name for than that!
How about “Operation Revenge of the Juice”?
Tony737 on January 3, 2009 at 2:31 PM
And save many others.
Wars are necessary. Humans aren’t naturally peaceful. Peace must often be imposed. But you’ve heard all that before and have rejected it.
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:32 PM
ThePrez on January 3, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Six days, I think.
fluffy on January 3, 2009 at 2:32 PM
lodge:
Either give it a rest or explain what you would do.
Vince on January 3, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Those “civilians” are ready to blow themselves and their children up in order to kill Jews. They’ve been warned to leave (DID YOU MISS THE HEADLINE?). Some have fled. The death of the “civilians” in on the hands of Hamas and those who support it.
INC on January 3, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Six days, I think. – Fluffy
Ha! Good answer!
Tony737 on January 3, 2009 at 2:34 PM
yeah, I’ve heard all the neocon arguments of “installing peace and democracy by force” before, and it would seem that the failure of Iraq is a pretty good case study against all that.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:34 PM
How long did they last the last five time those nations tried that? We didnt jump in before and we aren’t going to need to jump in ever. Israel is 100 percent fully capable of defending itself, she just needs to be allowed to do so.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Sadly, there is the problem that the “international community” can stop Israel. It’s too bad that more people don’t listen to what Islam has to say and thus don’t realize that Israel that is acting in the interest of civilization. If we would just learn to listen better to each other, the “international community” would do the right thing and fret over some environmental while blithely ignoring whatever Israel does in Gaza and the West Bank.
thuja on January 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Israel will never lose. Period.
GoodBoy on January 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM
So if I tell you to leave your home and you ignore me, and then I bomb your home and you die, I am not responsible for your death?
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Islamic terrorists can’t reach NY yet with their missiles. They can only reach W. Europe so far from their locations in the middle-east. That’s why they flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon.
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM
This fits with other comments that lodge has made.
I would love to know who some of the commenters here really are, who they work for, and their political and national allegiances.
Since we don’t, we can only surmise as they build up a backlog of comments and interactions on thread.
caveat emptor
(Since I don’t know the Latin for let the commenter beware)!
INC on January 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM
It was only a few years ago that Gaza was a beautiful thriving mass of land. Fruit farms, flower farms, greenery everywhere. Beautiful homes and in clean productive family oriented settlements.
The Arabs took over (not going into the distasterous decision to give them the land)and in a matter of a few short months it was looted, destroyed and is presently a gigantic garbage dump.
Two peoples one, a lover life, the other, a destroyer of life.
katy on January 3, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Does the other Iranian puppet, Hezbollah join the fray given the Islamosupremist propaganda flowing out of Tehran?
dmann on January 3, 2009 at 2:36 PM
LODGE-PODGE
thomasaur on January 3, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Yes, if your govt/brother/uncle has been firing rockets into my land from your home.
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Ya, because Iraq is such a failure. Oh wait that’s right it’s not a failure, you on the other hand… Epic failure.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:37 PM
I for one hate the thought of dead civilians. Which is why I keep asking myself the question…why does Hamas start launching rockets in the first place, knowing full well there will be retaliation. Further, why launch them from areas occupied by civilians?
scalleywag on January 3, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Israel’s killed several big jihadi fish and plenty of littler ones
We proved in Iraq that this works very well. Kill the leaders and the second stringers don’t last long.
Tony737 on January 3, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Iraq is not a failure. Iraq is no longer a threat to its neighbors. If they take the democracy too, that would be gravy.
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Perhaps he doesn’t know we’re in 2009… he’s apparently stuck somewhere in late 2006.
mankai on January 3, 2009 at 2:38 PM
I work for the US Navy, and my political allegiance is to conservatism. ;)
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Because Hamas could care less if “civilians” are killed and they do it to try to use the morality and compassion of the West against us.
INC on January 3, 2009 at 2:39 PM
God help the innocent… if there are any.
nick108 on January 3, 2009 at 2:39 PM
They probably do it as a recruiting tactic. When Israel reacts and inevitably kills a load of women and children, they have some good recruiting propaganda.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:40 PM
What failure would that be? A democracy installed? 30 million people freed? Our troops on the way out? A dictator removed? The fact that more people were murdered in Chicago alone last year than troops were lost in Iraq?
amerpundit on January 3, 2009 at 2:40 PM
yeah, I’ve heard all the neocon arguments of “installing peace and democracy by force” before, and it would seem that the failure of Iraq is a pretty good case study against all that.
Yet Iraq is not a failure, nor is Japan, Germany and Italy, three other nations which had peace and democracy installed by force.
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Hamas thought they could get away with it, In other words they screwed themselves and the Palestinians.
rob verdi on January 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Alright, if I had to latch onto an option, I suppose I could go with it. I doubt it`ll happen, but good luck and God bless them if they try it.
ThePrez on January 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM
There are a lot more people in Chicago
nick108 on January 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Gaza is a strip of land that used to be controled by one or two brigades of border police. Now it poses such a threat that we need a joint operation of the Israeli Air Force, Navy, tanks and artiliey in order to defend ourselves.
Many thanks to the architets of the Oslo accords and to Ariel Sharon!
rafi_g on January 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM
How do you react when someone lobs a grenade into your living room?
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Oh come on…are you serious? Are you still arguing that it was a good idea and worth the blood and treasure? “You shall not criticize the strategic plan!” ah, the good old days.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:42 PM
Funny, but I don’t believe you and if by some miracle it should be true, you should resign your commission immediately, that however would require a sense of honor, which I seriously doubt you have or would even know what is. You are no conservative sir.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Did I say I’d recommend invading Iraq now with 20/20 hindsight? Or did I say that Iraq wasn’t a failure?
amerpundit on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
This conflict is a model for the larger world. Hamas being Islam and Israel being all that is not Muslim.
Islam will never leave us alone either so it is worth seeing what actions produce what outcomes.
Up til now America wants to “put up” with Islam in the War on WTF, treat 9/11 like a lucky Qassam strike. For how long?
BL@KBIRD on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
nick108 on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
We didn’t enter WW2 to install democracies, we entered WW2 after we were viciously attacked by Japan. There’s a huge difference. We had the moral authority, it was a just war.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Will Israel target the walls between Gaza and Egypt allowing people to flee into Egypt?
What an image of Egypt protesting the act and sending troops to the border to keep the palis out of their country!
redshirt on January 3, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I see, and what “work” do you do for the “US Navy”?
rplat on January 3, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I’m not commissioned and am not a politician which leaves me free to criticize officer fuckups. Anonymously, of course ;)
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Sure. And we will prob. have to do it with Iran if they don’t back down. Unless and until some other liberal democracy rises to the challenge of imposing some semblance of peace and stability on the world, we’re it. If you don’t like living in the world’s leading country, you should have moved. On the other hand, you prob. voted for obama, so you’re looking to take us down a few pegs from within. Bet you’d like to give more power to the UN. It would be “fairer.”
JiangxiDad on January 3, 2009 at 2:47 PM
TEH EVIL JUICES!!1!
doodleduh on January 3, 2009 at 2:48 PM
We didn’t enter WW2 to install democracies, we entered WW2 after we were viciously attacked by Japan. There’s a huge difference. We had the moral authority, it was a just war.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Lance Murdock on January 3, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Sonar. I live under the sea ;)
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:48 PM
lodge:
Putin calls himself a conservative as well. You are an isolationist and I’ll keep saying that because you are!
Vince on January 3, 2009 at 2:50 PM
They could, and I think they should. Alas, I don’t think that they will. Maybe I’ll be surprised, though. Ironically, the success of the peace process depends on Israel’s success in this op.
ProfessorMiao on January 3, 2009 at 2:51 PM
I’ll quote Ayn Rand here:
doodleduh on January 3, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Palestinians live like animals because they choose to live that way. Never have a people been more self destructive, more wrong, and made consistently the wrong decisions as the Palestinians. Hamas is just the latest madness from a completely corrupt and failed Palestinian leadership. From the corrupt mafia of the PLO to the religious extremism and myopia of Hamas. Sixty years of failed policies and the Palestinians still have this pipe dream of driving the Jews into the sea.
Sane Palestinians have to be quiet or leave. Most have left. Either to Canada, Australia, or Jordan. The lunatics remain.
They deserve this because they bring it on themselves. If they would just try to live in peace with Israel, the Israelis would embrace it.
This will change nothing, but it is a chance for the IDF to knock Hamas on its ass.
Mr. Joe on January 3, 2009 at 2:52 PM
INC on January 3, 2009 at 2:39 PM
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Then my next question would by why in the world we have people in the international community protesting Israel’s response when the “leaders” in Gaza are the ones who are putting their very own citizens at risk? WTF is wrong with people? I suppose if Mexican banditos started lobbing RPGs at El Paso we should just sit back and say “oh those silly Gringos, they’re at it again.?”
scalleywag on January 3, 2009 at 2:52 PM
With people like you in the US Navy I pity the US Navy.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Conservative means small government spending, does it not? What’s conservative about spending taxpayer money building schools in Iraq?
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM
I think Israel is a bit monolithic in it’s ground operations…they need more stealth. They seem a bit too soviet (excuse me for saying that)
tomas on January 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM
…and Europeans, especially their intelligentsia.
Why should they care? He doesn’t have their intersts at heart. He’s interested in his own glory, and no more.
Watch the influence Iran has. This time Hamas is heavily armed and financed by Iran. It will be different from any other conflict there, so far.
All considered, this conflict will not be solved by force, nor by negotiation. Some conflicts will just never be solved. Obama will find this out the way all other American presidents have.
Entelechy on January 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM
I don’t think Israel will give a rats a** about Obama’s “tolerating” their need to defend themselves. Nor do I think they base their defense capabilities and options on Obama’s clock.
Guardian on January 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Dorian, good to see you. How have you been?
Entelechy on January 3, 2009 at 2:55 PM
We didn’t enter WW2 to install democracies, we entered WW2 after we were viciously attacked by Japan. There’s a huge difference. We had the moral authority, it was a just war.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM
We didn’t stop when the axis military power was broken, we didn’t just go home and leave those nations to fend for themselves, we put them back together with the knowledge that democracies rarely make war upon one another.
Germany and Italy didn’t attack us, yet we provided them our largesse as much as to Japan. There was no moral authority to reconstruct them, our only authority was to defeat their war-making capabilities. It made SENSE to reconstruct their governments as democracies, just as it did in Iraq and would also in the crap pile known as Gaza.
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Pretty good, and yourself???
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM
I thought you might say that. The “support the troops” crowd quickly reveals itself as the “support the war” crowd when there’s a difference of opinion.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the post-war “spheres of influence” agreements. Political activity was heavily controlled and monitored in Western Europe and in Japan. The “Democratization of Japan” was a US Policy.
Etc…
mankai on January 3, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Being conservative is much more than small government and less spending. The government is to protect its citizens. Precisely what Israel is doing. They buy weapons from more than the USA.
Vince on January 3, 2009 at 2:58 PM
We’re sorry for having opinions that differ from your own.
doodleduh on January 3, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Germany didn’t attack us, no, but they declared war on us. And it’s true that democracies rarely make war on each other, but Iraq is an exception to that rule, is it not? I mean, we’re a democratic republic, and we made war on Iraq.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:59 PM
That is… we didn’t invade Iraq or Afghanistan solely to democratize them, but if you leave them on their own, you may be facing the same problems in a few years. That is why Germany and Japan had to be “democratized” and why Iraq needs to be “democratized.”
mankai on January 3, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Apathy has set in, like never before. Our citizenry showed America, and what she stood for, the biggest finger there could be. If it wouldn’t be so devastating to the country and her children, I’d wish upon them all they voted for.
Entelechy on January 3, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Is this blog working?
Minute by minute updates.
Blake on January 3, 2009 at 3:00 PM
I wasn’t talking about that, I was talking about the snarky US Navy comment.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:00 PM
re: #42 mini_burkha_fan
Interesting invading at night. I can’t think of a ground assault BEGINNING at nighttime.
With NVGs, Western armies own the night.
—–
Umm, with Night Vision, Radar, Infrared, and a hell of a lot of training to use same, yes.
NVG are like AK-47s. They’re not all that hard to obtain, but without proper *training*, they don’t *help*. Spray-And-Pray is still Spray-And-Pray, day or night.
Mew
acat on January 3, 2009 at 3:02 PM
Well guess what, HAMAS has been at war since its inception. It has never wanted peace with Israel. HAMAS wanted war with Israel; well they got it.
Lance Murdock on January 3, 2009 at 3:03 PM
“I seem to have walked into an alternate reality…are people
The Israeli’s were attacked and in war the enablers get killed.
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:03 PM
Germany didn’t attack us, no, but they declared war on us. And it’s true that democracies rarely make war on each other, but Iraq is an exception to that rule, is it not? I mean, we’re a democratic republic, and we made war on Iraq.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Fine, Germany declared war on us, at that point our only necessary option was to make them incapable of prosecuting said war, the governmental apparatus we installed post-war was done so by force and successfully at that.
As for Iraq, you have must have missed the part where I said “democracies rarely make war upon one another,” concentrate on the words “one another.”
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 3:04 PM
lodge:
Putin calls himself a conservative as well. You are an isolationist and I’ll keep saying that because you are!
Vince on January 3, 2009 at 2:50 PM
——-
Vince – go google Jacksonianism. It’s a subset of conservatism, just not one that’s been dominant in U.S. foreign policy for a long while. Common among military families and outside cities, iirc.
Mew
acat on January 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Some people just need killin’. I’m glad Israel is up to the challenge.
KSgop on January 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM
So, it really does come down to your personal dislike for Israel and Jews. No shock there.
Blake on January 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM
If I remember correctly our aircraft were being shot at by the Iraqis.
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM
So you’re asserting that a democracy can declare war on a non-democracy, but a democracy can’t declare war on a democracy?
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Hmmm, how did you ever pass the intelligence requirements for the US Navy? I’m a military brat, US Navy as a matter of fact. I grew up during the Vietnam war and know far better than you ever will what the price of war is. I spent the years between 1967 and 1975 watching my next door neighbors fathers and mothers and sister and brothers come back from Vietnam in body bags.
I also know what the price of failing to defend ones self or their nation is. It’s counted in the millions that died when evil people are allowed to do evil things because someone like you is afraid of going to war.
War is never pretty, it’s never clean or antiseptic. It’s a horrible solution to a problem that is a million times worse, but it is always the only solution to that problem.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM
Obama’s “peace” plan is that stupid Saudi peace plan. Do you really think Obama is stupid enough to demand Israel retreat to 1967 borders, split Jeruselem, and allow the right of return??
Blake on January 3, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Then you know the senselessness of Vietnam well. I would have thought the parallels to recent military adventures are clear.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:12 PM
We invaded North Africa, Italy, France…….
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Which were at the time, occupied by the Nazis. *facepalm*
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:14 PM
This must be the Czech guy. He better watch his back. lol
Blake on January 3, 2009 at 3:15 PM
I believe that we were attacked.
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:16 PM
So you’re asserting that a democracy can declare war on a non-democracy, but a democracy can’t declare war on a democracy?
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM
I did nothing of the sort, assuming anything is only going to embarrass you.
I said that democracies “rarely” go to war with one another, mainly because their peoples have representative governments which are are usually more interested in peaceful trade and commerce, and whose war-making decisions are constrained.
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 3:16 PM
So the Italians and French did not fight against us?
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:18 PM
acat:
I don’t believe that lodge fit the description of Jacksonian. If that’s what you were implying.
Vince on January 3, 2009 at 3:18 PM
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM
You consistently ignore people’s words and twist what they say, then completely ignore it when you are called out, or change the subject. Bishop said “democracies RARELY make war on eachother”. You turned that into “So you’re asserting that a democracy can declare war on a non-democracy, but a democracy can’t declare war on a democracy?” You stike me as a immature troublemaker who just likes to stir people up and you never offer anything constuctive. You sound like want to start an argument just so you can point to how mean and combative other people are while you are “just asking questions”. Grow up and offer a real solution once in a while instead of trying to prove everyone wrong all the time.
Mord on January 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Stopping communism is senseless? People want to live free. It was in 1975 that the phrase ‘boat people’ entered the popular American vocabulary. Later that same year, genocide began in Cambodia. The senselessness was not our fighting the spread of communism, but quitting before the tyrants.
fluffy on January 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Then you know the senselessness of Vietnam well. I would have thought the parallels to recent military adventures are clear.
lodge on January 3, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Funny how comparisons work sometimes; think of how stupid it must have looked to fight a ground war against China on the Korean peninsula.
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM
So the Italians and French did not fight against us?
Johan Klaus on January 3, 2009 at 3:18 PM
That would a nicely returned backhand *facepalm*.
Bishop on January 3, 2009 at 3:22 PM
What senselessness would that be? You sir, are a disgrace to the US Navy.
doriangrey on January 3, 2009 at 3:22 PM
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