Israel invades Gaza; Update: “A lengthy operation”

posted at 1:38 pm on January 3, 2009 by Allahpundit

Just a headline so far and no one else is reporting it, but they’ve been shelling northern Gaza since this morning to prepare the way so it’s not unexpected.

Now the JPost is reporting it too. Stand by for updates.

Update: From the JPost, big dividends from good intel:

The IAF also hit the home of senior Hamas commander Abu Zacharia Al-Jamal. A Hamas spokesman announced that al-Jamal was killed in the attack, which would make him the third senior operative in the group to be targeted in the past three days.

More:

Israeli defense officials said some 10,000 troops, including tank, artillery and special operations units, were massed on the Gaza border and prepared to invade. They said top commanders were split over whether to send in ground forces, in part because such an operation could lead to heavy casualties but also because they believed Hamas already had been dealt a heavy blow. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were classified discussions.

Fox News reported earlier that Israeli leaders had okayed a ground assault while the Telegraph claimed that they’d nixed it, so it’s safe to conclude this wasn’t done without serious misgivings. I’m actually surprised they went in: They can’t stop the rockets and they surely don’t want to reoccupy, so the only goal realistically is to bloody Hamas’s nose. But they’ve already done that with the airstrikes. Upping the ante by sending in infantry only leaves them vulnerable to a 2006 scenario where Hamas “wins” by surviving. According to Haaretz, Arab leaders told Olmert, “Go in if you must, but don’t dare fail.” What will “failure” look like? What, specifically, are they after? Hamas leaders or Qassam caches, or something else?

If they’d called a ceasefire unilaterally and said, “Let that be a lesson to you,” Hamas would have fired off a few rockets and declared victory. Some victory, though — Israel’s killed several big jihadi fish and plenty of littler ones, and hit dozens of military targets with virtually no casualties on its own side. Now it’s got men in harm’s way and propaganda opportunities galore for the enemy in the form of the “resistance” chucking rocks at tanks while the media spoons it up. Exit question: Isn’t Hamas going to fire off rockets and declare victory anyway after the ground assault?

Update: The point of the war, eloquently stated by a commenter at Commentary: “The military campaign as a whole to the extent that it is conducted effectively, will greatly reduce the number of people existing right now who wish to and are capable of harming Israel. On its own terms, that’s all it can accomplish, and that’s enough. Whether it makes a few people angry in Pakistan is an incalculable-unless, for reasons of your own, you wish to give those who can rent a mob, buy colorful anti-Israel banners, and get themselves on CNN veto power over Israeli policies.”

Update: The JPost says the goal of the operation is to destroy Hamas infrastructure and seize control of launching pads in the north. For how long, though? Until they pull out in two weeks and the pads are re-seized by Hamas?

Update: I’ve said this before, but however slanted you think American media is against Israel, it really doesn’t even approach British media.

Update: “Tens of thousands” of reservists are on their way up.

Update: An IDF spokesman says there are “many, many targets,” so the world shouldn’t hold its breath waiting for a pullout. Question: Are we to infer from the timing that Obama greenlit the operation? I remember people like John Bolton speculating months ago that the IAF would make a run on Iran sometime between the election and the inauguration, partly to avoid putting the new president on the spot and partly to eliminate the possibility that he’d stop them from acting once in office. This ain’t Iran, but the principle still applies. Did The One sign off on this, or did Israel act now precisely so that he wouldn’t have to?

Update: Bits and pieces of video from the invasion.

Update: Isn’t this operation destined to be finished by Inauguration Day or very shortly thereafter? Obama’s not going to complicate his peace plans by tolerating a long Israeli incursion right out of the chute. They’re on the clock.

Update: A few careless statements from Israeli pols give the NYT all the reason it needs to up the ante further and ask whether anything short of destroying Hamas will do.

Vice Premier Haim Ramon went even further Friday night in an interview on Israeli television, saying Israel must not end this operation with Hamas in charge of Gaza.

“What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” Mr. Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”…

“If the war ends in a draw, as expected, and Israel refrains from reoccupying Gaza, Hamas will gain diplomatic recognition,” wrote Aluf Benn, a political analyst, in the newspaper Haaretz on Friday. “No matter what you call it,” he added, “Hamas will obtain legitimacy.”…

[E]ven if Israel intends to hold back from completely overthrowing Hamas, its choice of assault tactics could head that way anyway. And the Israelis may already be facing a kind of mission creep: after all, if enough of Hamas’s infrastructure is destroyed, the prospect of governing Gaza, a densely populated, refugee-filled area whose weak economy has been devastated by the Israeli-led boycott, will be exceedingly difficult.


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Comments

Wow, I was going to comment on the shocking fairness of MSNBC’s report, but I can’t help being disappointed in the off-topic slanders being hurled in the many of the previous comments. Not fit for HA readers. Can’t we all get along? Disagree agreeably?

jgapinoy on January 4, 2009 at 8:04 AM

ROTFLMAO… Much of what you have been reading was written with tongues firmly planted in cheeks. I for example, have a great deal of respect for MB4 and genuinely like him. I disagree with him far less than it may sound like, I just genuinely enjoy arguing with him. To say that he is a good sport is an understatement.

I don’t know what he thinks of me, but arguing with him is always a learning experience that is well worth the effort and any possible discomfort that might arise from his snarky come backs.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 10:41 AM

There you go again, when did I ever say that I liked Johnson or Mcnamara? I despised them both for many reasons. You are avoiding my deal. Perhaps because you do not want to read anything that will upset your fawning vision of Abbie Hoffman.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 9:14 AM

You mean to tell me MB4 finds only the information that supports his point of view? You don’t say. ; )

Jamson64 on January 4, 2009 at 10:47 AM

I don’t know what he thinks of me, but arguing with him is always a learning experience that is well worth the effort and any possible discomfort that might arise from his snarky come backs.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 10:41 AM

Same here. Arguing with MB4 should be an olimpic sport.

And I am still waiting on the deal MB!

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 11:04 AM

OOPs!

olimpic Olympic sport.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Looks like Hamas went crying to Mommy….

http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnDAH452978.html

Dr Evil on January 4, 2009 at 11:26 AM

We’ve been interfering over there since 1953. They aren’t shouting “death to China!”, “death to Russia!”, “death to Canada!” are they?

lodge on January 4, 2009 at 5:27 AM

Yes they are. And have been for longer than they have been against the US. Its just that we never hear it.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 11:33 AM

We’ve been interfering over there since 1953. They aren’t shouting “death to China!”, “death to Russia!”, “death to Canada!” are they?

lodge on January 4, 2009 at 5:27 AM

How many conflicts around the world involve muslims?

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 11:36 AM

How many conflicts around the world involve muslims?

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 11:36 AM

It might be easier to identify the ones that don’t. And I can’t think of one that doesn’t involve either Muslims or socialists.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 11:39 AM

War is truly tragic. I feel sympathy for the innocent children. The sooner the Israelis kill Hamas, the sooner the children can stop suffering. Unfortunately, it is temporary until these same children are indoctrinated to the terrorist ways of Hamas and repeat the violence for the next generation of children. It is sad.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 12:11 PM

Muslim attacks: U.S.A., France, Great Britain, India, Lebanon, Israel, Philipines, Somolia, the Netherlands, Spain, Norway, Sweden, the Balkans, Russia, Denmark, Australia, Hangu, China, Belgium, Scotland, Kashmir, Malaysia, ect., ect., ect..

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 12:13 PM

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 12:13 PM

I think there is a pattern developing.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 12:30 PM

Technically, these comments make you a dick.

No, technically those comments make him a moral relativist and an idiot.

peacenprosperity on January 4, 2009 at 12:35 PM

It warms my heart to these Hamas monsters get their due.

wccawa on January 4, 2009 at 12:51 PM

If the bleeding heart “dispropotional” crowd really gave a crap about the kids in Gaza, they’d be helping Israel extirpate Hamas.

But those bastards and warwhores like Amanpour don’t even give a mnute crap about the little Jewish kids leaving school in Sderot who were directly targeted two weeks ago by Hamas.

TexasJew on January 4, 2009 at 1:22 PM

OK, if you want to be that way, I will take it that you do not want to read anything that will upset your fawning vision of Lyndon Baines Johnson and Robert Strange McNamara then.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 1:53 AM

There you go again, when did I ever say that I liked Johnson or Mcnamara? I despised them both for many reasons. You are avoiding my deal. Perhaps because you do not want to read anything that will upset your fawning vision of Abbie Hoffman.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 9:14 AM

Amazing. You appear to have completely missed the point and it was such a simple one. You don’t do all that well in those this figure or number is to which of these figures or numbers tests, do you?

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 1:26 PM

BTW, I don’t even know who Abbie Hoffman is, I don’t watch that much TV, although the name does sound familiar, but I’m probably thinking of her brother Dustin.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 1:29 PM

It’s you who wants more men to die bringing “democracy” to a bunch of camel-humpers who only discovered the wheel a couple decades ago.

lodge on January 4, 2009 at 5:06 AM

It was even worse than that. For years after finding one they kept trying to hump the wheel. Those folks are real slooooow.

Cheshire Cat on January 4, 2009 at 1:35 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 1:26 PM

LBJ was an a$$hole and most likely a criminal, McNamara was scared $hitless that he would be tried by a Nuremberg styled war crimes tribunal. My disparaging remarks regard H.R are predicated upon his placing the blame primarily on the field commanders rather then on those enacting the rules of engagement. One of the military figures I most respect to come out of the Vietnam war (Col. David Hackworth) held some very unpleasant views of our performance in Vietnam.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 1:39 PM

I hope Israel realizes that ONLY TOTAL VICTORY OVER HAMAS can change the calculus of their situation. Partial destruction or “bloodying the noses” of the terrorists does not help. It wastes lives and military resources and only postpones the inevitable final battle for a peaceful society.
***
Israel should also execute their strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities before the O’Bummer takes office on January 20. The HAMAS rocket attacks may be a “rope a dope” plan–to keep Israel busy until the Messiah stops military supplies from going to Israel.
***
Strike now–take out the evil regime supporting and arming HAMAS, Hizbollah, and the PLO. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan could not have been changed into peaceful decent countries before the U.S. victory over them. Peace follows victory–it does not precede it.
***
John Bibb

rocketman on January 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

I don’t know what he thinks of me, but arguing with him is always a learning experience that is well worth the effort and any possible discomfort that might arise from his snarky come backs.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 10:41 AM

Well, he would probably have a beer with you, but no kissing on the lips.

Cheshire Cat on January 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

And I am still waiting on the deal MB!

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 11:04 AM

Alright, I have put your book on my list of “to reads”.

It’s right after Rod Blagojevich’s, “The ins and outs of Illinois politics and other ways to get rich quick without getting caught”, but before Caroline Kennedy’s, “The Best-Loved Poems of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis”.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM

How many conflicts around the world involve muslims?

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 11:36 AM

That’s a simple mater of addition. What’s one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one and one and one … … …
Oh dear, I don’t know. I lost count.

Cheshire Cat on January 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Oh dear, I don’t know. I lost count.

Cheshire Cat on January 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM

And the number that aren’t?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:12 PM

No, technically those comments make him a moral relativist and an idiot.

peacenprosperity on January 4, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Moral relativist? I don’t see morality anywhere in this equation. Both sides use such pathetic and nauseating forms of propaganda that if you believe it you deserve to die. What really gets my goat is that the Zionists help promote that pathetic end times nonsense that you can see on any religious channel. Those Christian Zionists should move to the war zone too.

No its not moral relativism. There has to be a certain point where you value your own life, once you drop below that point you have no pity from me, and one’s whining will fall on deaf ears with me. I don’t have pity for people who commit suicide either.

LevStrauss on January 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

BTW, I don’t even know who Abbie Hoffman is, I don’t watch that much TV, although the name does sound familiar, but I’m probably thinking of her brother Dustin.

Abbie Hoffman was the central character in the Chicago roits during the Democratric Convention in 1968. He was one of those typical middle class America haters along the lines of Bernadine Dorn and her criminal husband Billy Ayres. Hoffman graciously committed suicide in 1989.

Pelayo on January 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

Lets see, conflicts not involving Muslims:
FARC (involves socialists)
Russia/Georgia dispute (socialists again)
North Korea (what do you know, more socialists)

Any others? Does Zimbabwe have Muslims? It sure has socialists.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:16 PM

My disparaging remarks regard H.R are predicated upon his placing the blame primarily on the field commanders rather then on those enacting the rules of engagement.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Actually most all of the book is criticizing the civilian “leadership” and the Joint Chiefs for rolling over to them.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Moral relativist? I don’t see morality anywhere in this equation. Both sides use such pathetic and nauseating forms of propaganda that if you believe it you deserve to die. What really gets my goat is that the Zionists help promote that pathetic end times nonsense that you can see on any religious channel. Those Christian Zionists should move to the war zone too.

No its not moral relativism. There has to be a certain point where you value your own life, once you drop below that point you have no pity from me, and one’s whining will fall on deaf ears with me. I don’t have pity for people who commit suicide either.

LevStrauss on January 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

You want to try that again, and maybe try to make sense this time?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:18 PM

War is truly tragic. I feel sympathy for the innocent children. The sooner the Israelis kill Hamas, the sooner the children can stop suffering. Unfortunately, it is temporary until these same children are indoctrinated to the terrorist ways of Hamas and repeat the violence for the next generation of children. It is sad.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 12:11 PM

War…Its for the children!!! Bwwwhahahahaha!

People here in the US have their children taken away for many reasons. Allowing your child to live in a perpetual war zone seems like just as good of a reason as any. Ignorant masochists that’s all. If you feel sorry for the children you should feel sorry for them all year long not just when the bombs are actually falling.

LevStrauss on January 4, 2009 at 2:20 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM

I’m not an expert on the in’s and out’s of Vietnam, but I sure seems to me that the US military was fighting the last war: afraid to win because they might end up fighting the Chines like in Korea. So they set out to vary vigorously not win.
We should be more surprised that it (mostly) worked.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Abbie Hoffman was the central character in the Chicago riots during the Democratic Convention in 1968.

Pelayo on January 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

August 26 to August 29, 1968. I was in basic at Fort Dix, NJ at that time, probably doing KP.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM

From Reuters..
TEHRAN, Jan 4 (Reuters) – An Iranian military commander called on Islamic countries to cut oil exports to Israel’s supporters in response to the Jewish state’s offensive in Gaza, the official IRNA news agency reported on Sunday.

IRNA said commander Bagherzadeh described oil as “one of the powerful elements of pressure” on the Jewish state’s Western backers in the “unequal war” faced by Palestinians in the coastal strip.

“Pointing at Westerners’ dependence on the Islamic countries’ oil and energy resources, he (Bagherzadeh) called for cutting the export of crude oil to the Zionist regime’s supporters the world over,” IRNA said, referring to Israel.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 2:29 PM

And when I read Michael Goldfarb [on the Israel-Gaza conflict], I become more and more aware of just how disgusting the McCain campaign was; and how lucky we are to have removed these thugs from office. Andrew “The Sarah Palin Vagina Monologues” Sullivan

Mr. Joe on January 4, 2009 at 2:32 PM

So they set out to vary vigorously not win.
We should be more surprised that it (mostly) worked.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:24 PM

It took way too long, and there were way too many “Success is just around the next corner”, and the American people eventually got sick of the whole thing.

People are by nature fickle. It is easy to persuade them of something, but difficult to keep them persuaded.
– Niccolo Machiavelli

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:34 PM

LevStrauss on January 4, 2009 at 2:20 PM

Gosh I didn’t mean to offend you to the point of you assuming how I feel about children the rest of the time. Unfortunately you miss my point. Having served in wartime in Vietnam I know a bit about how it affects children close up. The little broken bodies, no limbs..even crying over some dead little kid because you think of your own children. Perhaps if you had empathy for others you would understand. From your post I assume you think you are without sin and can cast the first stone. I do not think that way. I throw them back.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 2:37 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:34 PM

Yeah LBJ and his cronies screwed us good. Even McNamara eventually had to admit how they ran the war sucked.

Things backfired on those old protesters though. Their kids and grandkids rebelled and are taking it to the terrorists where it hurts. These kids are the best! Our American military makes me very proud to be able to say USA USA!

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 2:57 PM

It took way too long, and there were way too many “Success is just around the next corner”, and the American people eventually got sick of the whole thing.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:34 PM

The big “success is just around the corner” issue I know of was just before the Tet offensive. It turned out success was just around the corner, but the press misreported it as failure. That ended the war against the Viet Cong, leaving only the north.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:08 PM

It took way too long, and there were way too many “Success is just around the next corner”, and the American people eventually got sick of the whole thing.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:34 PM

you don’t get it. the north vietnamese played you and no surprise you fell for it. i posted yesterday the quote from the general who stated they knew if they stretched the war out the idiots would lose faith and give up. chalk you up for an idiot.

Jamson64 on January 4, 2009 at 3:14 PM

Vietnam = a war managed, prosecuted and ultimately abandoned by civilian led, political committees more concerned with domestic and foreign opinion [herded by an agenda driven media (see Tet offensive)] than actually upholding the values and disciplines of freedom. We will face a new Gulf of Token very soon, sadly, the choice Americans recently made ensures our “ships” turn tail and disappear over the horizon.

Healing We will Feel………

dmann on January 4, 2009 at 3:18 PM

but the press misreported it
Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:08 PM

Yep and they misrepresented almost all aspects of the war. Come to think of it the press tried to do that with Iraq. Unfortunately there is the internet to deal with. The press has learned they get called on it when they lie. Even John Kerry thought he was forgiven enough to be President. Ha ha we showed him didn’t we folks. He and Hanoi Jane can talk over old times and dream of things that might have been. When was the last time old Janey sat on an enemy AA gun and pretended to shoot down B-52’s….

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM

With all that’s going on in the world, why the hell are we refighting the Vietnam War?
What’s next – the Chosin Reservoir?

We beat Communism in a vicious fight. At least that round of it.
Let it go…

TexasJew on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Yep and they misrepresented almost all aspects of the war. Come to think of it the press tried to do that with Iraq. Unfortunately there is the internet to deal with. The press has learned they get called on it when they lie. Even John Kerry thought he was forgiven enough to be President. Ha ha we showed him didn’t we folks. He and Hanoi Jane can talk over old times and dream of things that might have been. When was the last time old Janey sat on an enemy AA gun and pretended to shoot down B-52’s….

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM

I have heard that the press was on the military’s side in WWII. Or was that just because we were on the same side as the USSR?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

With all that’s going on in the world, why the hell are we refighting the Vietnam War?
What’s next – the Chosin Reservoir?

We beat Communism in a vicious fight. At least that round of it.
Let it go…

TexasJew on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Let us not confuse analysis of a war with the war itself.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:32 PM

you don’t get it. the north vietnamese played you and no surprise you fell for it. i posted yesterday the quote from the general who stated they knew if they stretched the war out the idiots would lose faith and give up. chalk you up for an idiot.

Jamson64 on January 4, 2009 at 3:14 PM

Ha ha you seem equate the messenger with the message. The only thing the NVA tried to do to an American serviceman was kill him. The DRVN Government may have waited until we left because LBJ and McNamara would not invade the North thinking the Chinese might not like it. The DRVN knew eventually we would have to leave unless we invaded. Unless I misunderstood you I think you would be better served blaming our government not those pawns who had to fight.

My favorite war protest chant was “hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today”. We in the service took it to mean how the Democrats were running the war although the protestors didn’t realize why we liked it. It was good cover for a military type to speak againt the way the war was run.
Ah those were the days.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM

TexasJew on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Oh man the Frozen Chosen…thank you for brining it up…ha ha just kidding

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:34 PM

I have heard that the press was on the military’s side in WWII. Or was that just because we were on the same side as the USSR?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Don’t let it out but many in Hollywood supported WWII also. Then the commies took over Hollywood and the rest is history.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Several have commented on “Success around the corner”. I remember it as “light at the end of the tunnel”. For LBJ it turned out to be an oncoming train. After that we had Tricky Dick and “peace with honor”. My personal favorite was “Kill a commie for Christ”.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:41 PM

I see good old CNN is again counting bodies in an attempt to build sympathy for the thug Hamas buddies.

rplat on January 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM

you don’t get it. the north vietnamese played you and no surprise you fell for it. i posted yesterday the quote from the general who stated they knew if they stretched the war out the idiots would lose faith and give up. chalk you up for an idiot.

Jamson64 on January 4, 2009 at 3:14 PM

Stretching the war out was very much a two way street. Who ruled the backwater called Vietnam was far more important to them than to us and the American people were sick of it and not about to put up with it in perpetuity.

Personally if I had been in Congress I would not have voted to cut off funds to the ARVN after American troops had withdrawn. I do think that we owed them that as “we” had agreed to that. It is however doubtful that it would have made enough difference to change, rather than delay, the outcome as the South Vietnamese government did not have a whole lot of support from it’s own people..

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Several have commented on “Success around the corner”. I remember it as “light at the end of the tunnel”.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:41 PM

Also known as the Friday Night Follies.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:29 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Ha ha I forgot about that.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 4:32 PM

My personal favorite was “Kill a commie for Christ”.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 3:41 PM

I wanna be an Airborne Ranger,
Live the life of sex and danger,
I wanna go to Vietnam,
Kill some commies for my mom.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Lets see, conflicts not involving Muslims:
FARC (involves socialists)
Russia/Georgia dispute (socialists again)
North Korea (what do you know, more socialists)

Any others? Does Zimbabwe have Muslims? It sure has socialists.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:16 PM

And they have got the same goal as the muslims. World domination.

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 4:36 PM

If I should die on the Russian front
Bury me with a Russian #unt
If I should die on the Russian shore
Bury me with a Russian #hore
If I should die in the Russian air
Bury me with the pair

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:37 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Thats a nice ring to it. I can visualize the running cadences now. Must have been great.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Was it high, was it low,
Where the frack did that one go?
As those Caissons go rolling along
Was it left, was it right,
Now we won’t get our beer tonight
And those Caissons go rolling along.

Then it’s hi! hi! hee!
In the field artillery,
Shout out your numbers loud and strong,
For where’er you go,
You will always know
That the Caissons go rolling along.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 4:42 PM

I’m not an expert on the in’s and out’s of Vietnam, but I sure seems to me that the US military was fighting the last war: afraid to win because they might end up fighting the Chines like in Korea. So they set out to vary vigorously not win.
We should be more surprised that it (mostly) worked.

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Unreasonable rules of engagement and using the military as policemen instead of soldiers, both give undesirable results.

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 4:54 PM

“And when I read Michael Goldfarb [on the Israel-Gaza conflict], I become more and more aware of just how disgusting the McCain campaign was; and how lucky we are to have removed these thugs from office.”

Andrew “The Sarah Palin Vagina Monologues” Sullivan

This is what apparently set Sully off:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/01/a_supposed_serious_person.asp

What has happened to Sullivan? He just cannot let it go can he? Still going on and on about McCain and Palin. McCain is evil now because he picked Sarah Palin and was dishonest in telling the truth about Obama’s strange pals. When the One disappoints him, will Sully go completely insane? Nope, he will just create a double standard. This is not madness but dishonesty.

Mr. Joe on January 4, 2009 at 4:54 PM

What has happened to Sullivan? He just cannot let it go can he? Still going on and on about McCain and Palin. McCain is evil now because he picked Sarah Palin and was dishonest in telling the truth about Obama’s strange pals. When the One disappoints him, will Sully go completely insane? Nope, he will just create a double standard. This is not madness but dishonesty.

Mr. Joe on January 4, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Dishonesty from the media? Say it ain’t so Joe.

Johan Klaus on January 4, 2009 at 4:58 PM

Hey, the commenter called “lodge” is a Jew-hater folks. I hope he gets fvcked in the a$$ sideways with rock salt and a rusty rebar.

Andy in Agoura Hills on January 4, 2009 at 5:39 PM

Those commies are great people.

/sarc

Jamson64 on January 4, 2009 at 5:40 PM

Alright, I have put your book on my list of “to reads”.

It’s right after Rod Blagojevich’s, “The ins and outs of Illinois politics and other ways to get rich quick without getting caught”, but before Caroline Kennedy’s, “The Best-Loved Poems of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis”.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Cool, I will order Dereliction of Duty right now.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 6:36 PM

The timing of this invasion means that Paliwood will get cranked up just in time for Oscar season. Soon every bombed-out Hamas munitions dump will be littered with broken toys, every vehicle used by terrorist leaders will become an ambulance, and dozens of the “holiest sites in Islam” will begin popping up in the Gaza Strip. Has anyone seen Green Helmet Guy recently? Maybe he could present the Best Director trophy at the Academy Awards celebration this year.

Doctor Zero on January 4, 2009 at 6:40 PM

Incidentally, has anyone heard noises that the dems are going to cut orders for F-22’s in order to get more money for “stimulus”?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 7:09 PM

Doctor Zero on January 4, 2009 at 6:40 PM

Speaking of Pallywood: All your fakes are belong to us.

thinkagain on January 4, 2009 at 7:45 PM

Soulmate, any time that someone talks in terms of defeating Islam…it’s music to my ears.

Indeed for me as well. <3 Our liberal dominated media and education system, as well as our leaders failed to understand and educate the populace on this very serious threat. So the masses are left to there own devices to figure it out and sadly they’re been fully duped by jihadist propaganda and the useful idiots on the left.

Some good news…the leftist Labor Party has actually come out with a statement saying that tolerance has not worked…So maybe they are waking up in Europe, though in Britains case, it’s probably too late.

That is certainly a positive development. If we can get a majority of the liberals to join us, defeating Islam will be fairly easy. If however they side with muslims, then essentially we’re fighting two enemies-one of which is deeply embedded in our society. I think we’re in agreement that Europe is starting to open its eyes to the threat and its about time.

While Britain appears to be capitulating to Islam, the muslim population is about 5% there and its only because they have leftists in power who are completely clueless to the enemy growing in their midst and feckless in doing anything about it. I think the Conservatives are poised to takeover and from what I’ve gathered David Cameron seems to be relatively clued up on the Islamist threat, he’s just hides it well for obvious reasons.

What has been incredibly frustrating on the homefront here, particularly with my Jewish head-in-the-sand friends (and I have many of them in the NY area), is that when over the years I attempt to talk to these knee jerk liberal Democrats about Islam/Muslims, they immediately assume that I’m racist or a xenophobe.

Haha-I laugh because I can totally relate. Its the same with my friends and relatives, most of whom are liberal. There is a way to get them to “see the light” and that is education and persistence. Just as we acquired knowledge and an awareness of Islam, they need to arrive at a similar proficiency by being spoon fed information.

They need to be reminded that Islam is an ideology (not a race), a set of ideas/beliefs that are open to question, ridicule and elimination when proven dangerous. They should realize that Islam divides the world into muslims and non-muslims, the latter must convert, be subjugated or else killed.

The more I researched Islam the more layers of evil and depravity I discovered. Its unconscionable that we allow such inhumane and vile ideologies to be practiced and disseminated. They’ve been able to fly under our radar because there’s an unwritten taboo on criticizing religions but I think that’s changing thankfully.

In their haste to show how liberal and open-minded they are, they assume that I’m wary of dark-skinned people, of any culture other than white Protestants or something. They are so uniformed that they assume I lump in a Hindu Indian with a Muslim Albanian, not understanding how one is an enemy and one isn’t. They brag how they think it’s so great that Ellison, a Muslim, is a US Senator, and pat themselves on the back how open-minded and accepting they are.

That is the typical haughtiness we’ve come to expect from our liberal friends. They think they know better than anyone else and can’t get past their racial blinders. They are projecting their own small-mindedness onto you instead of giving you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that you know the difference between a person’s race and their culture/beliefs.

Its clear they are uneducated on Islam if they believe a muslim becoming a US Senator is somehow progress. Only the muslims stand to benefit (to our detriment) when we hand them power. One only needs to look at the Arabs in Israel to see that they are nothing more than a 5th column.

While I think there’s some great values in liberalism, they need to temper that with reality and learn to draw the line at extending tolerance towards the intolerant (ie Islam or any other evil ideologies).

I’d really like to hear from someone who is Jewish to give me some perspective on this. Simply put, why is the Jewish community so overwhelmingly Democratic and left-wing when it is conservatives and the right-wing who understand the threat of Islam and support pro-Israeli policies and the war on (Islamic)terror?

CarolynM on January 4, 2009 at 9:03 AM

That’s a great question. I think its because Jews have been universally persecuted and so they desire equality and acceptance and generally they find that in liberalism. Historically Conservatism has had an ugly past with racism, anti-semitism and bigotry towards minorities. Of course that has changed for quite some time but people are slow to catch on.

I also think that its cowardice. I once wondered why liberals fail to see that we have an enemy who is hell-bent on destroying us and they need to be eliminated. They do see it but they think (like Chamberlain did) that somehow muslims can be placated and appeased. If we give them what they want they’ll leave us alone-of course history has amply shown what happens when you cave in to thugs and tyrants.

All I can say is thank goodness for conservatives, otherwise we’d all be speaking russian, german, japanese or maybe even arabic by now. ;) Liberals in the past used to be strong people, but now their side is dominated by pacifists and bootlickers. I’m reminded of this quote:

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

thinkagain on January 4, 2009 at 7:46 PM

I’d really like to hear from someone who is Jewish to give me some perspective on this. Simply put, why is the Jewish community so overwhelmingly Democratic and left-wing when it is conservatives and the right-wing who understand the threat of Islam and support pro-Israeli policies and the war on (Islamic)terror?

CarolynM on January 4, 2009 at 9:03 AM

OK, here it goes:
Most of them are ignorant of their own ignorance, are easily lead and are far too easily influenced by empty rhetoric and pretty pictures.
Even supposedly intelligent liberals love pretty pictures and feel-good stories wrapped with a pink bow. It sure beats thinking.
My daughter loves those things too, but she is 9 years old.

TexasJew on January 4, 2009 at 8:11 PM

Actually most all of the book is criticizing the civilian “leadership” and the Joint Chiefs for rolling over to them.

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Strangely enough I feel that you understand my frustration. It’s not even so much that we disagree, hell Col. Hackworth, H.R and many others I respect circle around the same issues. We fucked up and it cost many many lives. Anger is what I know and feel about this issue.

I may have been but a child, but people that I knew and cared about died. The people I knew were not politicians or command level officers, they were just grunts. I refuse to assign any level of blame to them.

I want to strike out at someone for their deaths, and to my shame, you are the person most accessible. Sometimes the things you say, whether right or wrong, seem to suggest that those responsible were my friends.

Col. Hackworth once said that he was given an unwinnable war, and he felt his obligation was to prosecute to the very best of his abilities. That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.

I know in a very intellectual sense that there is room for dissent within the parameters of what constitutes the best way to achieve this goal. But somehow that very needful dissent often strikes me as an attack against those who represent the ideal in my mind of those who are the United States Military.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Gee…. Thanks

paragon27x on January 4, 2009 at 8:18 PM

That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

The true patriotism, the only rational patriotism, is loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government ONLY when it deserves it.
– Mark Twain

My kind of loyalty was to one’s country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to. Institutions and officeholders are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death.
– Mark Twain

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 8:21 PM

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

It is okay to feel anger at what happened. I know how easy it is to target the vet. Heck the protesters did that as a matter of choice thinking they could get at the “establishment” somehow. All they did was alienate a generation of vets against anything they did. Even today we vets do not trust many of them. John Kerry a vet…Jane Fonda a traitor…we’ll never forget and probably never forgive them. What you feel is normal especially if you were a child at the time. Children are not equiped emotionally to deal with the cruel realities of war. Do not worry. We vets know where you are coming from. You should not think we don’t understand, we do. The pain you feel is justified. You were traumatized just as many of us were. Keep the faith. If you attack us of course we’ll defend ourselves but we know in our heart you really mean the government policies during that time. Do not feel guilty. Hang in there, you are one of the most respected here. Your family taught you an honorable value system and you show respect to them by living it.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Excellent quotations thank you.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:31 PM

MB4 on January 4, 2009 at 8:21 PM

I lack the eloquence to express it as you do, that is one of my shames. What I feel I feel with a burning passion. Defame those I hold in the utmost regard and you have made an enemy for life of me. I am what I am, and pretend to be nothing else. I am not always right and am not afraid to admit it when someone can show it to be so.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:39 PM

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM

Thank you.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:39 PM

It is okay to feel anger at what happened. I know how easy it is to target the vet. Heck the protesters did that as a matter of choice thinking they could get at the “establishment” somehow.
kanda on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM

Perhaps that is where some of the anger over Vietnam comes from. I know it does in my case, I tend to lash out at comments that I interpret to indicate that the war was not noble or was fought for the wrong reasons. It’s the same with my feelings on the war between the states. My ancestors were not slaveholders they fought for what they believed was a noble cause as did my family members that perished in Vietnam. We get a little upset when we perceive (rightly or wrongly) that folks don’t honor that sacrifice.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 8:50 PM

That is a sentiment I was raised to believe in. My step-father, my father and my Grandfather lived by a creed that was instilled in me. My country right or wrong.
doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Nothing wrong with that sentiment. The sad thing is that more and more of the men of the “Greatest Generation” that held and passed on that sentiment to some of us are passing away every day. Sometimes I fear that the Republic is passing on with them.

But be proud of who you are dorian, and proud of the men who made you who you are.

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 8:57 PM

conservnut on January 4, 2009 at 8:50 PM

That’s true. Misdirected anger by those who feel powerless against the power of government sometimes do stupid things. It is hard to forgive them. Some who openly apologize I personally forgive. The others who feel that disrespecting the vets was justified are usually self important egomaniacs who we don’t need in our lives anyway. I don’t miss them. Many people don’t know that on the night the south surrendered Abe Lincoln had the band play Dixie to honor those who fell defending the south. Some people are insensitive to the feelings and experiences of others. That is their cross to bear.

kanda on January 4, 2009 at 9:02 PM

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48976

Waterboy on January 5, 2009 at 7:44 AM

Waterboy on January 5, 2009 at 7:44 AM

ha ha I think that was written after Israel goofed around last time. Hamas must have taken it seriously. Oh well live (or die) and learn.

kanda on January 5, 2009 at 7:57 AM

If they don’t pretty much eradicate Hamas, this will not be a success.

drjohn on January 5, 2009 at 8:04 AM

If they don’t pretty much eradicate Hamas, this will not be a success. drjohn on January 5, 2009 at 8:04 AM

If they don’t set up sterilization centers, this will not be a success.

Mojave Mark on January 5, 2009 at 9:12 AM

My country right or wrong.

doriangrey on January 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Exactly, for the reason you listed and another good one, a saying that my dad keeps repeating:

There’s always more that you don’t know than you do.

Ryan Gandy on January 5, 2009 at 9:58 AM

I was just wondering what would happen if canada started lobbing rockets in maine? or just maybe mexico started bombing arizona? how many rocket attacks, bombs, or mortar shells should the u.s. tolerate before we act? i wonder.

TomLawler on January 5, 2009 at 10:56 AM

I have heard that the press was on the military’s side in WWII. Or was that just because we were on the same side as the USSR?

Count to 10 on January 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Whew, that’s gonna leave a mark.

Johan Klaus on January 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM

I was just wondering what would happen if canada started lobbing rockets in maine? or just maybe mexico started bombing arizona? how many rocket attacks, bombs, or mortar shells should the u.s. tolerate before we act? i wonder.

TomLawler on January 5, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Unless I am mistaken, the Mexican military is already shooting at U.S. border patrol agents in south Texas and Arizona.

Johan Klaus on January 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

I was just wondering what would happen if canada started lobbing rockets in maine? or just maybe mexico started bombing arizona? how many rocket attacks, bombs, or mortar shells should the u.s. tolerate before we act? i wonder.

TomLawler on January 5, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Hilarious. I actually just brought that up in the Catch-22 Headline article. My thinking is that Israel’s consistently weak response to their enemies is a symptom of America’s cowardice. Are they still responsible for their lot? Of course they are. I just think that a very strong statement from America in support of our allies and in direct opposition to their enemies would change everything.

Could you imagine if the President publicly congratulated Israel on their restraint, reminded the world of why this isn’t about Israel being a bully, and then proceeded to tell Israel that if they choose to take back Gaza and the West Bank that they have our support?

The big issue is that America is afraid to stand for something…even if that stand is for freedom. If only we would lead I think so many would follow.

blankminde on January 5, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Contrary to hollywood, a lot of us in the military enlisted to serve our country and defend the homeland, not burn through taxpayer dollars on the pet wars of crazed politicians. Of course, no-one ever says this publicly.

I realize that real history isn’t your forte, as much as going along with the Hollywood crowd is to you, (Yeah.. I read what you said, and fell out of my chair laughing at you..)

But let’s see if you can give us a good run down on just what happened to the world at large when Rome fell. I know you wonder about the point, but there really is one.

Just as everyone once were able to get great goods, and at a price that even the poor could afford. Then folks like you got to tearing apart the empire… and even the places that made the good pots, didn’t have them anymore.. and we had a long, very dark age.

The dots you just can’t seem to connect, is that the middle east, and the very unstable nature of Islamic fundamentalism, and yet it’s hold on one very precious resource make for a difference to say… what is going on in other unstable places, as sympathetic to their cause I am.

They had brought the war here, sweet pea, and long before 9/11 although you would think that wake up call would have been enough for lugheads in general to get it, but you are proof that it is not. For other’s calling for Jeffersonian protectionism.. it’s all well and good, but if you think your life will get easier, and cheaper, when you can’t get goods in from other places becauee the stranglehold of islamic hatred for everything else in the world gets in the way of that, I have a hunch you will see it in a different light.

However, I also realize that in that instance you won’t get why you can’t get the cheap goods anymore. You just haven’t got enough of a clue. And it all boils down to a strong military doing their job in a place and time, where borders and war have become a very different thing than Mr Jefferson could have even imagined.

And one more request: for you folks that just have to drone on about “moral authority”, just stop. You don’t even understand the basic moral principle that people, and a country have the DIVINE RIGHT to defend themselves with a defense that obliterates their offenders completely. You never got that lesson in Kindergarten, I guess.

Noelie on January 6, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Proportionality?
Israel’s right, no, their responsibility, is to kill Islamofascists & destroy their stuff until Israel is safe, not until the body count is even-steven!

jgapinoy on January 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM