I will not make a full end of thee. This amazing prophecy has been fulfilled now continually for over 2500 years! Nation after nation which persecuted the Israelites in their dispersion throughout the nations have eventually fallen, with some yet to come, but the people of Israel still continue. Scripture right here tells us that God’s promises to the Jews, including the land of Israel, are still intact. He’s promised to preserve them. God still has a plan for the Jewish people and Israel. You just read it! The LORD said, “I will not make a full end of thee (Israel).” God did not wash His hands of the Jews and tell the “Christians to take their place.” Replacement theology is a lie from Satan. It is utter blasphemy because it calls God a liar! That is why it must be categorically rejected and refuted. God does not break His promises to anybody.

You are leaving out the part where He says he will give the Kingdom to a nation that DOES bear fruit. That’s convenient.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:48 PM

I don’t appreciate your suggestion that I am being deceptive to make an argument. I would not purposely leave out Scripture to make my point. Please tell me which “part” I left out that nullifies, and this is important, that nullifies the fact that the “withering of the fig tree” symbolized the terrible fate awaiting the Jews because of their rejection of Christ? Jesus cursed the fig tree (Mark 11:21) just as He cursed Adam and Eve and their disobedience. It was no different. You asked, “What did Christ mean when he cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit??” That is the answer and the meaning of the “cursed fig tree”. Throughout history the Jewish people have been persecuted exactly as Christ foretold. Nowhere does this passage indicate (anywhere) that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan! Nowhere! Israel’s promises remain Israel’s promises. They have not been transferred to the Christian church. And this is one of the passages you are using to support replacement theology that teaches that Christians have replaced Israel in God’s plan! If somebody is being dishonest regarding this passage it is not me.

IAF Video: Attack on rocket mosque

Mark XII 29

You:

Again you have proven your ignorance of the Holy Scriptures.

Jesus Christ Himself teaches us of the Holy Trinity..

Matthew 28:19-20

Let me make myself clearer to you. I do not mean to say that the NT does not advocate a trinity. It does, just as you point to its well know verses. The problem is back in Mark XII – look at the context.

There, verses 28 through 34 are Jesus’ dialogue with the Pharisee scribes. Verse 29 is the essential commandment of Israel relating to G-d’s Oneness. Here, according to Mark, Jesus introduces no hint of the trinity, whose concept again is elementary heresy to Judaism and always was such from time immemorial. And so the scribes answered back in verse 32 what was obvious to them and our Jewish ancestors for 1000s of years prior: “And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he.”

So you can either decide whether Jesus was 2-faced, saying one thing (or perhaps a half truth, according to you) to the scribes and another thing altogether to his disciples, or whether Mark and Matthew’s texts don’t jive with one another (no lack of NT examples). Frankly, it makes no difference to me.

Here is your problem..your understanding of the Holy Scriptures is completely wrong because you do not understand that the Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST!

Repeating something ad nauseum doesn’t make it true. As already pointed out, terms like jesus and christ and father/son/holy-ghost are nowhere to be found in the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures. Nor can you find not even one single historical reference, dating from prior to the appearance of new testament texts, which even hints that any of these pagan concepts were part and parcel of anything having to do with the Torah or the nation of Israel. You have struck out – again.

Let’s go on…

Luke 24:44-46

I’ve been trying to remind you, but you fail to comprehend, that since Judaism’s view of other Christianity is that it is one large fabrication, your reference to verses within the New Testament as proof to Jews that they are mistaken amounts to primitive circular reasoning.

That’s why you now begin to try and bring “proofs” of trinity doctrine from the Tanach itself. Very well. Let’s examine your claims, verse by verse.

(Genesis 18:1-3)

Some Holy Scripture references on the Most Holy Trinity, Whom Abraham addressed in the Old Testament among the three angels symbolize the Trinity, and that is whom Abraham was talking to was God the Son, the God of the Old Testament.

And yet it does not say so. People/angels are mentioned. Nothing of a god, let alone a 3-faceted one. The magic words “father, son and holy ghost” do not appear here, In fact, they do not appear anywhere – not even once – in the entire Tanach. Strange that. You feel forced to hammer a round peg into a square hole. You have little alternative.

Moving right along…

Read first Psalm 32:6 and then read Job 33:4

I have no idea where you see an allusion to trinity in Psalm 32. Let’s quote, using the KJV, just to be sure it’s to my disadvantage:

5I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

Nope. No trinity/FSHG mentioned there, either. But you want me to associate that somehow with Job 33:4:

4The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Nope. Zippo. Nada. In Hebrew, the words are “Ruach El”, simply meaning “the spirit of G-d”. The Tanach is full of references to spirit, of G-d or of people, and all of them, like here in Job 33, don’t mention a trinity.

BTW, how is your grasp of Hebrew?

Next:

Daniel 3:8-30

Here we’ll ask you how is your grasp of Aramaic? Mine is intermediary, after an adult lifetime of studying the Babylonian Talmud, the majority of whose text is in Aramaic.

This is the story of Chananya, Mishael and Azariah (their Aramaic names being Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) being cast into the fiery furnace by Nevuchadnetzar and coming out alive and unsinged.

Your excitement is obviously over verse 25. Let’s first quote the KJV to point out what makes you so happy:

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Just one problem. That’s wishful thinking into what the Aramaic term “bar elohin” means. First let’s see the standard literal translation of the same verse:

He answered and said: ‘Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.’

For those of you not experienced with the terminology “bar elohim” in Aramaic or “bnei elohim” in Hebrew – throughout Tanach – the term always refers to an angel or a highly influencial person. Before you see examples in Genesis 6:2, Exodus 22:7, 8, 27, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, look no futher than 3 verses ahead in this Chapter of Daniel, verse 28, even using the KJV for your benefit:

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

So, is it your son of god or an angel? Can you make up your mind?

We Jews, not only still study in Aramaic, we also have a few prayers remaining from Babylonian times, still in Aramaic. One of them is “B’rich Sh’meih D’Marei Alma”, meaning “Blessed is the name of the Master of the universe.” We recite this prayer any time a portion of the Torah is read in the Synagogue, when the Ark of the Torah has been opened. Today, Thursday, is one of those times.

In that prayer, among other things, we Jews declare our dependence on G-d, exclusive of any other force, with following words, 2 of them should be recognizable to you by now:

“Lo al enash rachizna v’lo al bar elohin somichna. Elah b’Elaha d’Shemaya”

Meaning “I do not rely on man and I do not depend on angels. Rather (my reliance is) on The G-d of the Heavens”. We’ve been saying this prayer from before the time Jesus was just a gleem in his mother’s eye. We’ve not changed the text, nor the meaning.

The truth hurts, Olaf, but, how shall I say it, it will set you free. But not if you close your eyes shut and shove your fingers in your ears. You’re just lying to yourself.

Moving right along…

As God as the consuming fire read Deut. 4:24

Here it is: “For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.”

So? Again, no trinity or FSHG mentioned. In fact, browse down to verse 35 in that chapter and you’ll find just the opposite:

“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”

And again I am quoting from the KJV.

You continued with:

We see our God as ‘Holy’ read: Isa. 6:1-3

The word “holy” in Hebrew is “kadosh”. We Jews used this word to describe our awe, fear and humble respect for G-d way before the advent of Christianity. It is irrelevent to any claims of trinity or FSHG doctrines.

Isaiah 6:3 states:

“And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.”

I realize that you are infatuated with the number three but, sadly for you, no trinity nor FSHG mentioned yet again.

Maybe you should become a binitarian, based on 1 Kings 18:39:

“And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.”

Hey, binitarianism was good enough for early Christians but you don’t wanna go there. It’s a good thing the Council of Nicaea eventually came around and put a stop to playing the numbers. It just took Christianity 325 years to get there. Now that’s a pretty big number!

Reading up on the history of the trinity doctrine formulation is almost comical.

Sorry. I needed a moment of humor. Back to your “proofs”:

Christ as the Son of Man read Daniel 7: 13, 14

KJV: “13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You already know I can easily point out, as I did above, that “son of man” is ambiguous, always referring to angels or persons of high influence, which is what this verse is referring to.

How do I know this? Context. Read the whole chapter. Daniel had these visions in a dream. Verses 2 through 15 are Daniel’s own words recollecting his vision. Verses 16 through 27 are the dreams interpretation. Contrast verse 14′s vision to its interpretation in verse 27:

“27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

The people. Israel. Here you have the true story of the end of days, as Jews have always proclaimed from time imemorial.

Almost finished. Next you state:

Read Ps. 51:3.

KJV:

“For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.”

No trinity or FSHG there. I must confess you’re consistant!

Finally, we get to your last claim to fame:

Read also Numbers 11:16-17

KJV:

16 The LORD said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone.

Spirit of G-d? Yes, I never argued.

Trinity? Not mentioned here. Tsk.

Father/son/holy ghost? Not mentioned here, either. Tsk.

While you indeed do show a tremendous amount of ignorance when it comes to the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures, it is the act of ignoring which highlights your foundationless claims.

I thank you for this opportunity. Have a nice day.

As for who is israel..I have already definitively proven beyond a doubt with hundreds of Scriptural references(a few posts above) that it is the Christians that are the Israel of God.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:53 PM

You claim to make your case based on the Bible, but you ignore the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient for your argument. It’s strikingly dishonest to list all those Bible verses while skipping over Romans 11 that actually addresses the relationship of the churches of God to Israel:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Note that blindness in part has happened to Israel (present tense), until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (future tense). And then, all Israel (no longer in part) will be saved (future tense.)

And Paul wrote this so that Christians would not be wise in their own conceits.

Isn’t the idea that God is through with Israel a conceit, because it would put you more at the center of God’s universe? “Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.”

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Then Paul quotes from Old Testament prophecy about the last days. Now, you could argue that this was already fulfilled by the church. Except that this was written in the first century AD, which would be after the prophecy was supposedly fulfilled. And Paul is clearly saying it will be future.

Now you may say that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was in the future of the epistle, and that Paul could have been referring to that. That would be plausible, except that the destruction of Jerusalem did not see anything at all like “all Israel being saved.”

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Some opposition and conflict between Jews and Christians is inevitable over the core of Christianity, the Gospel. But we should never be enemies in any other sense of the word. Christians are called to love the Jews, and to love Israel.

Israel has not been replaced. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God said to Jeremiah that He had not divorced Israel, and that is still true.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You ignore the parts of the Bible that speak the most to the issue. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and, as he himself put it, a “Hebrew of the Hebrews.” It’s hardly surprising that he spent some time talking about the issues of Israel and the churches of God. I have quoted only eight verses, and it’s enough to smash the pretense that God has discarded Israel. There’s much more, such as the discussion earlier in Romans 11 about how God grafted us into the “good olive tree” that is Israel. Or about how God still has His remnant of Israel that is faithful to Him, and how the whole nation will turn to him again.

Now, there have always been those who are of Israel by birth, but not of God because they have rejected Him. So it only makes sense that those who have come to God, though Gentiles, should be grafted in to the promises made to Israel. But they have not therefore replaced Israel.

Bear in mind that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who spent his life going to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel, always started his preaching in a new city by going to the synagogue first. He even says as much repeatedly in Romans 1-3, “to the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles.”

And one of the ministries Paul carried out with keen interest was the collecting of money and food from the Gentiles to give to the Jewish Christians who were undergoing a famine. Paul sought to bring the Jews and the Gentiles together. This was referenced in several epistles, but the reference in Romans 15 is especially on-topic:

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Note again that the Gentiles were made partakers of the Jews‘ spiritual things, and had a duty to help them with carnal or physical things.

Jews in America have learned recently that evangelical Christians are friends to Israel. Gentile Christians in Paul’s day were friends of Israel. It’s very disturbing to read comments such as yours that undermine that fact and encourage Jews to believe that Christians are against them.

As they say, don’t feed the trolls (St Olaf) otherwise they keep coming back. Anybody with half-a-brain would not take this moron seriously.

I suspect he’s either a muslim or liberal posing as a Christian or he’s one of those pacifist Christians that welcomes his own enslavement or death at the hands of his enemies.

thinkagain on December 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

SaintOlaf, SaintOlaf… is SaintOlaf the guy/gal who was claiming – quite insistently, as I recall – that Barack Obama is NOT in fact half-black, but rather 1/4 Arab and 1/4 black? As I remember it, Baldilocks had to get involved on that one.

SaintOlaf: You dismiss the term ‘dhimmi’ too quickly to sway any of us who are familiar with the general concept of dhimmitude, and also the way it has affected Palestinian Christians of the Edward Said variety.

If you come back with a detailed refutation of the body of claims based on this scholarship, or can point us to such a document, then we will start there. Until then, I’m left scratching my head wondering, how can someone look at this situation and side with Hamas, any more than they could look at Barack Obama and believe with a straight face that he’s ARAB?

If you want to do the Christian thing, and side with some Christians in the Holy Land, why don’t you start with the Maronites – who are taking fire from every position imaginable w/o any help from your lot – instead of the dhimmi Christians who are either openly hostile or studiously indifferent to the Maronites’ plight and perfectly happy, it seems, to let the likes of Hizballah or Hamas drive (or wipe) them out?

Your call. But you call yourself a Christian, so I thought I’d suggest that, perhaps, it’s time for you to wake up and start behaving like one.

On the contrary! Even Jesus didn’t know what a trinity was:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” – Mark XII 29

Again you have proven your ignorance of the Holy Scriptures.

Jesus Christ Himself teaches us of the Holy Trinity..

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”
Matthew 28:19-20

FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT
have One Nature, One Essence.
Thus the Three Persons are the Trinity, One in Essence.

God is a Holy Trinity. A Trinity Consubstantial and indivisible. Consubstantial, i.e., one essence, one nature. A Trinity indivisible: the Son has never been divided from the Father, nor the Holy Spirit from the Father or the Son, and never will be divided.

Here is your problem..your understanding of the Holy Scriptures is completely wrong because you do not understand that the Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST!

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:44-46

The God whom you claim to worship YHWH is in fact Jesus Christ(God the Word). One cannot see God the Father.
All manifestations of God are in fact Christ Jesus ,God the word.

The hospitality of Abraham is a representation of the Holy Trinity.

And God appeared to him by the oak of Mamre, as Abraham sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and beholds three men stood before him. When he saw them, he ran from the door of the tent to meet them. He bowed himself down to the earth and said, ‘Lord,if I have found favor in Thy sight, do not pass by Thy servant”
(Genesis 18:1-3)

Some Holy Scripture references on the Most Holy Trinity, Whom Abraham addressed in the Old Testament among the three angels symbolize the Trinity, and that is whom Abraham was talking to was God the Son, the God of the Old Testament. Read Genesis 1:27. Read first Psalm 32:6 and then read Job 33:4. Daniel 3:8-30. As God as the consuming fire read Deut. 4:24; Heb. 12:29. We see our God as ‘Holy’ read: Isa. 6:1-3. Christ as the Son of Man read Daniel 7: 13, 14. also read St. Matthew 25:31. “Take not the Holy Spirit from me.” Read Ps. 51:3. Read also Numbers 11:16-17 as the Hebrew elders where calling upon the grace of the Holy Spirit to come upon them all. “Word became flesh” (John 1:14).

As for who is israel..I have already definitively proven beyond a doubt with hundreds of Scriptural references(a few posts above) that it is the Christians that are the Israel of God.

Leviticus 26:44-45 – (44) And despite all this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant with them; for I am the L-rd their G-d. (45) And I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d to them; I am the L-rd.

Judges 2:1 – And an angel of the L-rd came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said [in G-d's name], “I will bring you up from Egypt, and I have brought you to the land which I swore to your forefathers, and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.’”

Ezekiel 16:59-60 – (59) For thus said the L-rd G-d [to Jerusalem]: “I have done with you in accordance to that which you have done, that you have despised an oath in breaking a covenant. (60) Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.

Psalms 105:8-10 – (8) He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. (9) That which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac; (10) And He established it for Jacob as a law, and for Israel as an everlasting covenant;

There is no argument about the fact that Israel has strayed from the path many times since the promise was made at Mount Sinai, and for which Israel has suffered the consequences. Yet, the Torah clearly shows that G-d will neither break that covenant nor replace the Torah – The Torah is eternal.

Happy New Year!

He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him.

The Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

Do a word search for jesus or christ anywhere in the Tanach. Zippo.

Read any ancient historical scriptures or texts written about Israel prior to the advent of Christianity and – zippo again. No reference to any such pagan beliefs amongst the Jewish nation at any time.

Judaism does not have the Father. It is an anti-Christ religion and a heresy.

So G-d at Sinai instructed His people to practice heresy and go against something called a christ which no Jew had ever heard of or imagined about until more than 1000 years after the Torah was given?

Who do you think the Word of the Lord is?

Christian newfangled terminology. Words are words and lords are lords.

Do you not know that God is a Holy Trinity?

On the contrary! Even Jesus didn’t know what a trinity was:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” – Mark XII 29

Who is the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? Why does God refer to Himself as us?

Because He is a Tri-Unine Being.

Nope. G-d never refers to himself as “us”.

Read: What is the meaning of God said: “Let us make man in our image?

Read: Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

I’d rather not debate with you because you don’t know the New Testament nor the power of God. You do not know of which you are speaking.

You’re an arrogant ignoramous of the Tanach. You cannot prove any of your claims except through NT quotations, which aren’t worth squat in consideration of what G-d has previously stated in the Tanach. You’re desparately dependent on circular reasoning by proving Jesus by what it states in the New Testament. That’s because you have nothing to stand on in G-d’s original unchangeable Torah.

You represent 2000 years of blatant falacy.

As for what you keep mentioning, asking the Saints to have intercessory prayer for us, that IS 100% Biblical and I’ve already proven that in another thread.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:25 PM

You did not prove that, lol. You keep saying this. “I’ve proven it! I’ve proven it!” Without proving anything, okay, lol. Praying to Mary and the saints is unbiblical, man. The Bible does not teach this – at all. Show me one verse where anyone is praying to or through them. And explain what that verse is saying. No. On second thought. Show me a few verses where where anyone is praying to or through Mary and the saints. There ya go. Now you can prove it! Now, I really gotta go. Ciao.

Man I could go on and on with about three more long posts like this but i will spare you as this is more than enough..like I said if you have a problem with this view take it up with the Bible or convert to another religion.

If you have a problem with this view take it up with the Holy bible or convert to the anti-christ religion of judaism if you like..

OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
THE BELOVED OF GOD
A) Israel Is Beloved Of God:
- Ex. 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God:
- Lev. 3:16, Jer. 12:8, Jer. 16:5, Hos. 9:15
C) Christians Are Beloved Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
- Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God:
- Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
- John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1
THE FIELD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Field Of God:
- Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Field Of God:
- 1 Cor. 3:9
THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A) Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- Psa. 78:52, Psa. 80:1, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1,2,3, Jer. 31:10, Eze. 34:12,15,16, Mic. 5:4, Zec. 10:3
B) Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- John 10:14,16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Pet. 2:25, 1 Pet. 5:2,3
THE HOUSE OF GOD
A) Israel Is The House Of God:
- Num. 12:7
B) Christians Are The House Of God:
- 1 Tim. 3:15, Heb. 3:2,5,6, Heb. 10:21, 1 Pet. 4:17
THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
- Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
- Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
- Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6
THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
- Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God:
- Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14
THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
- Ex. 19:6
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God:
- 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
- 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10
THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Vineyard Of God:
- Isa. 5:3,4,5,7, Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Vineyard Of God:
- Luke 20:16

I think the link he gave above to the Antiochian Church legitimately defines him.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 1:22 PM

You’re right-I didn’t check that link earlier. Seems to me they’re a bunch of closet anti-semities.

“I (God) will bless them that bless thee (Israel), and curse him that curseth thee” Genesis 12:3

Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the rebuilding of Israel.

I’ve already proven that all of the prophecies relating to the return of the hebrews to the land were fulfilled by the restoration of the temple when the hebrews were restored from captivity from Babylon BEFORE CHRIST was Incarnate.

Without that you have NO Biblical verses suporting your point!

Apacalyps,

Christians ARE Israel.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:25 PM

The more times you say it Saint Olaf, doesn’t make it so. To argue that God has replaced Israel with the Christian church is to depart from a huge amount evidence in the Holy Bible. You’ve been misled by whoever, and are spreading anti-semitic lies.

Nowhere does this passage indicate that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

Really?

You are leaving out the part where He says he will give the Kingdom to a nation that DOES bear fruit. That’s convenient.

And also Apacalyps what is the “nation” He is referring to?

Tell me, Is Christ’s kingdom of this world?

Is His a worldy kingdom?

Which came first, the Torah or the contradicting New Testament?

Or are you saying that G-d is fickle? Perhaps moody? Mondays and Thursdays, He likes us, Tuesdays and Thursdays you guys get His attention?

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 4:22 PM

He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him.

The new testament does not contradict the old testament.

It fulfills it.

The Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

Judaism does not have the Father. It is an anti-Christ religion and a heresy.

Who do you think the Word of the Lord is?

Do you not know that God is a Holy Trinity?

Who is the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? Why does God refer to Himself as us?

Because He is a Tri-Unine Being.

I’d rather not debate with you because you don’t know the New Testament nor the power of God. You do not know of which you are speaking.

I think it’s hilarious that the protestants here are attacking me and say nothing about your anti-christ spirit inspired statements.

What did Christ mean when he cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit??

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:55 AM

“Now in the morning as he (Jesus) returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!” Matthew 21:18-20

He was thinking of Judah and Jerusalem, outwardly prosperous and religious, but inwardly spiritually barren. Israel had often been symbolized in Scripture as a fig tree (Hosea 9:10) and it’s religious leaders had rejected Him and were now intent on getting rid of Him. Accordingly, He cursed the fig tree (Mark 11:21) just as He cursed Adam and Eve and their disobedience. It was no different. The withering of the fig tree was symbolizing the terrible fate awaiting the Jews because of their spiritual unfruitfulness. Just look at all the trouble the Jewish people have had since that time. Throughout history, they have been persecuted, the Romans scattered the Jews across the world, Hitler, the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is re-emerging in Europe and rampant in the Islamic. Hate for the Jewish people is spreading like wildfire throughout the world – again!! Look, I pray the Jews learn the Truth and finally recognize Jesus as her Messiah, but the “cursed fig tree that didn’t bear fruit” has nothing to do with Replacement Theology, Olaf. Nowhere does this passage indicate that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Israel’s promises remain Israel’s promises. They have not been transferred to the Christian church. God has not forgotten the nation of Israel, Saint Olaf. He is going to one day restore them to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (See Romans chapter 11). When it’s all said and done, the Lord will rule from Israel. Jerusalem will be the center of everything that happens in the world. All those who persecuted Israel will be defeated (they are God’s enemies) and Israel will finally have the Messiah as King – as will Christians. Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the rebuilding of Israel and the time when God removes the curse from mankind. So, as long as Christians are still here we should continue to lobby and protect Israel. If the Lord supports Israel so should we!

Christians ARE Israel. This is 100% Biblical and there are so many Scriptures proving this that it is a major error to say otherwise.

I know this is a hard thing for you to understand because if you accept the truth of the Scriptures proving this, the you will have to rethink your end times eschatology.

But remember Apacalyps, as Christians we are not afraid of the truth..in fact we embrace it and it proves us right.

I know that you are sincere and I am sure that once you study the hundreds of Biblical verses proving this point you will eventually embrace the truth.

What did Christ mean when He cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit Apacalyps?

What does Israel is not of flesh and blood but of FAITH mean?

Why does Paul call the Church the Israel of God? Is he in serious error and a “racist” also?

Instead of inferring that I am a racist (which is a serious error), search the Scriptures and see that the Church is Israel for yourself. The reality is it is the ONLY thing that makes sense. It is 100% Biblical.

I’m sure you will eventually get it and ask my forgiveness for accusing me of racism, eventually.

As for what you keep mentioning, asking the Saints to have intercessory prayer for us, that IS 100% Biblical and I’ve already proven that in another thread.

1. The Saints are Living.(Do you deny that is Scriptural?)

2. The incense in Heaven before the throne is the intercessory prayer of the saints(do you deny those Scriptures also?)

Is your mother a mediator between you and Christ when she prays for you?

Of course not! Are any of the other Biblical references to us praying for others heretical also? Is the Bible not true?