Video: Greg Jarrett cuts interview with Palestinian apologist short

posted at 2:45 pm on December 30, 2008 by Allahpundit

Not as sweet as it should have been. Nonsense like this demands snarling, Megyn Kelly-style pugnacity or even a full-on finger-pointing O’Reilly hissyfit, not the polite disdain Jarrett musters. Frankly, he’d have been within his rights to stop the interview after she dropped the detail about Israel’s brief incursion into Gaza after the election without explaining why they were there. But as palate cleansers go, it’s still cool, clean, and refreshing.

She’s a former PLO spokesman, too. Of course.


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Shooting rockets into civilian areas, deploying rockets by schools, hospitals and using civilians as human shields: NOT WAR CRIMES.
Anything Israel does: WAR CRIME
DSchoen on December 31, 2008 at 1:03 AM

Maybe you didn’t watch the video.

She clearly stated that Israel is not only sending “rockets” but precision guided missles into HOSPITALS and mosques etc..

War crimes committed by israel = Good

War crimes committed by muslims = Bad

I guess this is the logic of the propaganda newscasters that don’t let their opponents speak.

Tell me, is there some flaw in their precision guided missles or does it not matter when israel commits war crimes?

Evidently it doesn’t according to the newscaster…he says hamas is responsible for israel’s murder of innocent palestinian Christians and muslims in hospitals.

That’s the same kind of “logic” as:

“That woman was clearly begging to be raped because she wore that revealing mini skirt, therefore my crime was justified”.

The reality is both sides(israel and hamas) are wrong and both are committing war crimes.

Why is this so hard for you to admit?

Is she lying about the precision guided missles being sent into Hospitals and mosques?

If you find out that it is true….will you not be outraged also?

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:32 AM

Diana Buttu is a Christian.

Just thought you should know.

mofo on December 31, 2008 at 2:24 AM

Diana Buttu is a Christian dhimmi.

Just thought you should know.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 2:32 AM

She clearly stated that Israel is not only sending “rockets” but precision guided missles into HOSPITALS and mosques etc..

No hospitals were targeted. So she’s a liar.

The IDF has already explained that the mosque(s) targeted contained weapons stashes. So she’s a conniving misleader.

Is she lying about the precision guided missles being sent into Hospitals and mosques?
Yep.

If you find out that it is true….will you not be outraged also?

And if you find out that you’re a sucker for any anti-Semitic tripe, will you break your habit, Junkie?

Regards from Jerusalem, the eternal capital of the Jewish nation.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 2:38 AM

Diana Buttu is a Christian.

Just thought you should know.

mofo on December 31, 2008 at 2:24 AM

That’s very interesting.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:39 AM

Didn’t she- Diana Butto, used to be the Massengill spokeswoman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG55k6HisCs

Dr Evil on December 30, 2008 at 3:20 PM

“Spokeswoman”? I think you have her confused with the product itself.

soundingboard on December 31, 2008 at 2:44 AM

Diana Buttu is a Christian.

I wonder how many racist people here automatically assumed she was a muslim because she(GASP)..said that israel is committing war crimes and because she is(GASP)dark skinned.

The fact is, the only people Christians should be supporting in that area of the middle east are the Palestinian Christians.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:54 AM

Rockets without “explosive heads”?

I assume she means “warheads”, but that being the case, she’s either lying, or Hamas are some really stupid mofos when it comes to weapons design.

My money’s on the former.

Qassam

(OK…it’s Wiki, but still…)

soundingboard on December 31, 2008 at 2:59 AM

The fact is, the only people Christians should be supporting in that area of the middle east are the Palestinian Christians.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:54 AM

Then Palestinian Christians should stop lying about facts on the ground.

And I think anybody assuming she’s a Muslim, is doing so not for the reasons you listed, but because the terrorist organisation she’s defending, is by its defining charter, Islamic.

soundingboard on December 31, 2008 at 3:05 AM

The fact is, the only people Christians should be supporting in that area of the middle east are the Palestinian Christians.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:54 AM

Are you saying that Christians should not support Israel?

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:27 AM

The reality is both sides (israel and hamas) are wrong and both are committing war crimes.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:32 AM

And I don’t understand what you mean here?

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:33 AM

Are you saying that Christians should not support Israel?

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:27 AM

Clearly according to the Holy Bible, Christians ARE the Israel of God!

Israel is not of flesh and blood but by FAITH.

If anyone thinks that judaism is in any way pro Christian, they are fooling themselves.

They are NOT pro Christian whatsoever.

Any one who denies Christ is of the anti-christ spirit.

No. Christians should not support the zionist state of “israel”.

If anything we should support the palestinian Christians and listen to them when they complain about the injustices committed against them by the zionist state of israel, instead of writing them off as racists or “dhimmi’s”.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:36 AM

And I don’t understand what you mean here?

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:33 AM

This woman(who most people here automatically assume is lying) is a palestinian Christian and she is complaining that the state of israel is using precision guided missles and bombing HOSPITALS, mosques and civilian areas intentionally.

If you do some research you will find that MANY,MANY Palestinian Christians complain about atrocities committed against Christians within the state of israel and palestine in general.

The jews in israel are persecuting Christians.

Why should we be allies with them?

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:42 AM

Clearly according to the Holy Bible, Christians ARE the Israel of God!

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:36 AM

You wanna clarify what all this means?

No. Christians should not support the zionist state of “israel”.

Zionist state? You sound like Ahmadinnerjacket. Does God support Israel SaintOlaf?

If anything we should support the palestinian Christians and listen to them when they complain about the injustices committed against them by the zionist state of israel

“Injustices committed against them by the zionist state of israel??” I’m really surprised to hear you talk like this. Garbage like this gets me really upset.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:44 AM

Does God support Israel SaintOlaf?

Zionism means judaism as a political and military force essentially.

God “supports” Israel.

CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAEL.

That is very clear in the Bible.

I don’t know why this upsets you and you assume that it is garbage but do your research…that is what the Bible says.

Do you deny that anyone or religion that denies Christ is of the anti-christ spirit? Does judaism deny Christ?

You may have never heard this before but do your research and you will see.

What is Christ talking about when He cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit?

What does Israel is not of flesh and blood but of Faith mean?

What does there is no longer jew nor gentile but all are one in Christ mean?

Why was the temple destroyed?

There is a multitude of evidence supporting the fact that the Christians are the israel of God.

There is also a propaganda war going on. We have to trust God and seek the truth.

Search the Scriptures and you will see.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:58 AM

Any one who denies Christ is of the anti-christ spirit.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:36 AM

I’m an anti-christ that cares.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 3:58 AM

That is very clear in the Bible.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:58 AM

Sorry, sir pagan, no such thing anywhere in the holy Torah, Prophets and Scriptures.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 4:00 AM

Zionism means judaism as a political and military force essentially.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:58 AM

The way you talk you sound like one of Israel’s enemies. Like Ahmajenicide, or one of those wacko lefties holding signs protesting at reprobate Berkley. “Stop the injustices committed by the zionist state of israel!! Stop the injustices committed by the zionist state of israel!” That’s pathetic man! There’s no excuse for the way you’re talking about Israel, and that is who you are talking about. You said it yourself, “Christians should not support the zionist state of “israel”.” Disgraceful Saint Olaf!

God “supports” Israel.

Yes, He certainly does! WHO do you think defended tiny little Israel in all it’s wars since it became a nation again in 1948!? God did! Starting in 1948, Arabs have collectively tried to snuff out the life of tiny Israel, attacking her in six major wars, not to mention all the terrorist attacks. But, they cannot succeed because God has set His Hand against them and put a hedge of protection around little tiny state of Israel — protecting them against their enemies like Hezbollah and Hamas, Fatah, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia ….

“When thou (Israel) goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt… For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.” Deuteronomy 20:1

God will fight for Israel, and you are making a BIG mistake with this philosophy you have here Saint Olaf. It makes no sense that God would restore Israel after 2500 years, protect them in war after war, and then abandon them today like you are saying that Israel is committing war crimes and that Christians should not support them. BIG MISTAKE.

CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAEL.

Huh?? Are you talking about replacement theology? That that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Is that what you mean?

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 4:26 AM

Apacalyps,

This link might help you understand this.

I have other links with MULTITUDES of Scriptures proving this point if you need those also but you are very Bible literate so you may not need those links if you know what to look for.

http://www.antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Who_Is_The_New_Israel.htm

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:29 AM

Who is the Israel of God Apacalyps?

Tell me, is Christ’s kingdom of this world?

Who is Paul speaking to when he refers to the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 and numerous other verses?

The prophecies relating to the restoration of the land to the hebrews clearly had already been fulfilled when they were restored from the Babylonian captivity. That happened before Christ..

Without that you have nothing to prove the point that you are trying to make.

Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.
The Christians are the Israel of God Apacalyps.

Study this issue deeply in the Holy Scriptures before you condemn me.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:36 AM

It makes no sense that God would restore Israel after 2500 years

Israel is by FAITH not flesh and blood.

Christ said to the jewish elders:

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and
given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matt. 21:43

Christ said to His disciples:

Do not fear, little flock, for it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Luke 12:32

What did Christ mean when he cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit??

The point you are trying to make regarding the anti-christian jews defeat of the poor and illiterate anti-christian arab nations does not mean anything and it contradicts so many of the Scriptures that clearly you could not use that as the one example proving your point.

If you are going to prove me wrong and say that I’m in error…prove me wrong with the Holy Scriptures.

Don’t just point to a few small earthly battles and the fact that anti-christian zionists took over a nation.

Prove that God supports a religious group clearly inspired by the anti-christ spirit and all of the blessings that He gives for us Christians is really towards a group inspired by the anti-christ spirit.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:55 AM

The Christians are the Israel of God Apacalyps.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:36 AM

No. Christians are not Israel. That teaching is dangerous man. You are talking about Replacement Theology. That the Christian church replaced Israel – and get it’s promises. That is nowhere taught in Scripture and is an anti-semitic philosophy. The Church has no relationship to the curses or blessings for Israel. They are completely different and distinct from each other.

The prophecies relating to the restoration of the land to the hebrews clearly had already been fulfilled when they were restored from the Babylonian captivity. That happened before Christ.

No. No. No. That is wrong. Big time! God’s blueprint for the restoration of Israel is the most referred to theme in the Bible. That’s (literal) Israel, not the false doctrine that the Church is the “new” Israel. This all part of the plan. Once in the land, the converion to Christ begins — and it is. And when Israel is planted back in the land, she will not be uprooted again (Amos 9).

Study this issue deeply in the Holy Scriptures before you condemn me.

I’m not condemning you. I’m trying to help you. You’re whole outlook on the end times is messed up man, and I blame it on the people you’re getting this onformationfrom, the Orthodox Church. I’m not saying you’re not saved or their aren’t saved people in the Orthodox Church, but they are clearly wrong on Israel and on some other issue too like praying to Saints and to Mary. You’ve got to re-think things. Take a step back. Because you’re all wrong on the role Israel plays and the plan God has for them. Here’s the bottom line Saint Olaf, and what you need to understand. Christians should support the nation of Israel despite the Jews’ failure to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because the Lord has said He will judge the nations largely upon their treatment of Israel. And this judgment is coming. It’s in the future. God told the Prophet Joel,

“I will also gather ALL nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat (this refers to Armageddon).” Joel 3:2

The valley of Jehoshaphat MEANS “judgment of God”. The NATIONS will be gathered and brought down into the valley of Jehoshaphat for JUDGMENT.

You see, the scapegoat Jew have always been BLAMED by this world no matter what their enemies do – it’s always Israels fault. God see’s the hypocrisy, how the nations (the UN) sympathize with the bad behaviour of the Arab terrorist’s always forcing Israel to give up more of it’s land. “Cut in pieces” as Zechariah 12:3 says for those who divide God’s land and give it to His enemies.

“And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be CUT IN PIECES, though ALL THE PEOPLE of the earth be GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST IT.”

And so the trap is being set, because one day all these nations and people are going to be judged on how poorly they treated the Jews and the nation Israel. Don’t be one of these people who gets judged Saint Olaf.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 5:10 AM

God has preserved His people for a reason, Saint Olaf. They have divine right to the land promised to their forefathers and previously taken from them. You should know that and you should not be speaking against them. Following what God says is more important than reading the doctrine of the Orthodox church. The Bible is right! What GOD says is what’s right! “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee (Genesis 12:3).” “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Those that love Me shall prosper” (Psalm 122:6). That is the BLUEPRINT FOR THE MIDDLE EAST! And that’s what Christians should be doing and that’s what every nation should be doing! And YOU need to understand that!! I have to go. I still like you don’t worry, but this should NOT even be an issue Saint Olaf. Man! I am so dissapointed and upset that you fell for that false teaching! I’ll be praying your heart softens and you have the courage to change your mind on Israel and do what is right. This is so very important, I can’t tell you how important it is we support the Jewish people and the state of Israel. Ciao.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 5:29 AM

If you are going to prove me wrong and say that I’m in error…prove me wrong with the Holy Scriptures.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:55 AM

Okily dokily!

Has God Divorced Israel? What is the Meaning of the ‘New Covenant’ Promised in Jeremiah?

See you in shul, this coming Shabbos?

:)

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 5:34 AM

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008

I don’t know why you seem to hate Jews so much. Is this how you express your Christianity? Without Christ there are no Christians and without Judaism there is no Christ. He was born to Mary (a Jew) and Joseph (hey there, another Jew!) of the house of David for a reason. He was born a Jew and remained faithful until his death. If you are pissed because all the Jews haven’t converted to Christianity yet, get over yourself. God has a plan for His chosen people and we don’t have to know all the details of that plan. Until God tells me otherwise, I will respect and revere the Jewish rock upon which my Christian faith is built and support the state of Israel as long as they are faithful and follow God’s laws handed down to Moses (damn, another Jew…can’t get away from them, thank God).

SKYFOX on December 31, 2008 at 5:40 AM

This just in:

Shin Bet head: Hamas dealt serious blow; operatives hiding-out in hospitals

…..

The Shin Bet head added that many of Hamas’s senior activists were hiding out in mosques and hospitals in Gaza, some of them in the guise of doctors and male nurses.

Wow! Just like in The Dark Knight!

:-p

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 5:41 AM

BTW, while hamas may have been dealt a “serious” blow, the problem remains that Israel is not willing to deal it a “lethal” blow.

And that is the mistake of this operation, just like the one in Lebanon 2 summers ago.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 5:56 AM

the Lord has said He will judge the nations largely upon their treatment of Israel(The Christians)

Replace the racialist (and racist) view of Israel with the true interpretation of Christians as the Israel of God and that is the ONLY way any of those interpretations you have makes sense. Think about it Apacalyps…does it make any sense whatsoever that all of the promises Christ makes to us Christians are really meant instead for the hebrews and judaism(an anti-christ religion)? Your interpretation is a false interpretation invented less than two hundred years ago and is used as propaganda today…it has ZERO connection to the interpretation that has been placed on this term for the past 2,00 years.

The valley of Jehoshaphat MEANS “judgment of God”.

See now you’re beginning to get to the true interpretation.

Did you even read the link I posted, where it talks about dispensationalism(invented in the late 1820′s) and typological interpretations(invented by Christ)?

Christ Himself used typological interpretatons as did St Paul and St Peter.

Typology is the method of Biblical understanding which seeks the spiritual meaning of the
historical events described in the Old Testament…
The typological method is not just the invention of the Fathers, but is based firmly on the New Testament. Our Lord Himself used the example of Jonah as a type of the three days that He would spend in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). He also compared the lifting up of the serpent by Moses to his own ascent of the cross (John 3:14). Saint Paul considered the passing through the Red Sea as a type for baptism (I Corinthians10:1-2). Saint Peter even uses the term “antitype” to compare the ark with baptism (I Peter 3:20-21). Thus the typological method of interpretation is firmly grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

Again I will state that you have no reply to any of the hundreds of Biblical verses that prove that Christians are Israel.

And again I will ask you to disprove me using the the Holy Scriptures.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:06 AM

He was born to Mary (a Jew) and Joseph (hey there, another Jew!)

Sorry man but you have NO idea what you’re talking about.

Jesus Christ was NOT born to Joseph.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:07 AM

Jesus Christ was NOT born to Joseph.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:07 AM

And we all know what that means!

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 6:12 AM

Sorry, sir pagan, no such thing anywhere in the holy Torah, Prophets and Scriptures.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 4:00 AM

Sorry man, but you have all of the wrong interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

You crucified your own God when He was incarnated. You have no idea what the Scriptures mean.

All of the Old Testament is about Christ.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:19 AM

Sorry man, but you have all of the wrong interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:19 AM

Yeh. What do Jews know about interpreting the Torah! How silly of us!

You crucified your own God when He was incarnated.

Ah, but what if he was just a dead Jew on a stick? I’m not even bothering to delve into the fact that crucifixion was a Roman form of capital punishment, not a Jewish one.

You have no idea what the Scriptures mean.

All of the Old Testament is about Christ.

So that’s why nobody throughout Jewish history was aware of the concept of a walking/talking Jesus god in the flesh.

That’s one sneaky-peeky Creator of the world we have there, keeping this vital information from us since the creation of the universe and right through the Exodus, the giving of the Torah at Sinai and throughout the hundreds of years of prophets and kings.

Must’ve been a minor oversight on His part.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 6:45 AM

So tell me, St Olaf, do you believe in replacement theology, that the church has replaced Israel?
You can choose to support or not anybody you want. I stand with Israel.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:27 AM

I wonder how many racist people here automatically assumed she was a muslim because she(GASP)..said that israel is committing war crimes and because she is(GASP)dark skinned.

The fact is, the only people Christians should be supporting in that area of the middle east are the Palestinian Christians.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 2:54 AM

If that is your criteria for a racist, then I guess you could include me. Because yes, from her appearance and her propaganda I did assume she is muslim. I say again, this Southern Baptist evangelical Christian supports Israel.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:30 AM

Clearly according to the Holy Bible, Christians ARE the Israel of God!

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:36 AM

Give me a couple of scripture references – in context please.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:32 AM

CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAEL.

That is very clear in the Bible.

Christians are NOT Israel. Scripture references, please.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:34 AM

Christians have been grafted into the olive tree that is Israel, but we have NOT replaced Israel. Romans 11:17, 19, 23 and 24.
So, Olaf, give me your verses that Christianity is now Israel.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:37 AM

Does judaism deny Christ?

Judaism aside, not all Jews have denied Christ. Many have recognized their Messiah.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:38 AM

I think Olaf got it from here.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 7:38 AM

ve other links with MULTITUDES of Scriptures proving this point if you need those also but you are very Bible literate so you may not need those links if you know what to look for.

…if you know what to look for. The Bible is sort of like the internet, isnt it, Olaf, if you know what to look for. You can find scripture to support or refute any point you want to make. But put it all in context and it’s a different story isnt it?
God has one covenant with man – Jew or Gentile – the shed blood of Christ. Israel is not abandoned, merely set aside. She will recgonize her messiah. God will send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to preach Christ to the world. No, Israel is not abandoned or replaced.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:44 AM

Skyfox – you make a good point about Moses. And, WOW!, Jesus, Paul, James, John, etc, etc were JEWS too!
Apacalyps, you are doing a great job of teaching Olaf.
Good on ya.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:53 AM

Sorry man but you have NO idea what you’re talking about.

Jesus Christ was NOT born to Joseph.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:07 AM

Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit, but wasnt he referred to among men as “the carpenter’s son”? Legally, Jesus certainly was the son of Joseph. Hence the reference to Jesus as Son of Man – that connotes his humanity. Son of David connotes his earthly lineage, Son of God connotes his divinity.
I think I can refute everything you’ve said with scripture, Olaf. I’ll be back later today when I’ve done my homework.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:58 AM

Skyfox – you make a good point about Moses. And, WOW!, Jesus, Paul, James, John, etc, etc were JEWS too!
Apacalyps, you are doing a great job of teaching Olaf.
Good on ya.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:53 AM

Hey! What am I? Chopped liver?!?!?!?!

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 7:58 AM

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:29 AM
You are an ignorant asswipe.

Hilts on December 31, 2008 at 9:49 AM

Sirhan Sirhan that terrorist was also a christian.

Hilts on December 31, 2008 at 9:50 AM

Hey! What am I? Chopped liver?!?!?!?!
Shy Guy on December 31, 2008

Depends. Are you kosher?
Seriously, I don’t think any slight is intended by not attributing your cogent remarks.
Some of us Christians get touchy when jew-hating Christians start to unlimber their typing fingers and our responses don’t always give credit where due. Gotta tolerate all opinions, I know, and Saint Olaf is no less entitled to an opinion than we, but it’s important to counter that point of view. Hatred itself is a sin (yes, I am a sinner in this regard) but I consider hatred of Jews as particularly egregious. My bible has two testaments; old and new. I consider it all to be the inspired word of God. Guess what…the whole thing is chock full of Jews. Kinda makes that hatred seem foolish at least.

SKYFOX on December 31, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Depends. Are you kosher?

SKYFOX on December 31, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Certified. :)

Seriously, I don’t think any slight is intended by not attributing your cogent remarks.

I was seriously just kidding.

Guess what…the whole thing is chock full of Jews. Kinda makes that hatred seem foolish at least.

I disagree. The fact the Christianity’s founders were Jewish does not automatically equate to your religion having to be nice to Jews. In fact, I was not relating to that point in any of my comments about Olaf’s posts.

That being said, I prefer friends to enemies. Strange, no?

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 12:16 PM

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:44 AM

As they say, don’t feed the trolls (St Olaf) otherwise they keep coming back. Anybody with half-a-brain would not take this moron seriously.

I suspect he’s either a muslim or liberal posing as a Christian or he’s one of those pacifist Christians that welcomes his own enslavement or death at the hands of his enemies.

Regardless we should all avoid giving him the attention he craves cause he has no friends in real life. Hopefully his loneliness and desperation will drive him to join some terrorist group and wind up eating a US or Israeli bullet one day. :)

thinkagain on December 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Every time they open their mouths and spouting their bullshit, they should be called on it in no uncertain terms. When they find the world isn’t buying it, maybe they might be encouraged to try a new tactic…..like stop shooting at their neighbors.

GarandFan on December 31, 2008 at 1:11 PM

I suspect he’s either a muslim or liberal posing as a Christian or he’s one of those pacifist Christians that welcomes his own enslavement or death at the hands of his enemies.

thinkagain on December 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

I think the link he gave above to the Antiochian Church legitimately defines him.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 1:22 PM

So, Olaf, give me your verses that Christianity is now Israel.

abcurtis on December 31, 2008 at 7:37 AM

Look through my posts I already quoted 15+ verses that without a doubt prove the fact that CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAEL.

Evidently you don’t agree with the Bible but would rather stick with your own false interpretation that was invented in the late 1820′s.

Tell me now…Is Paul wrong when He calls the Church Israel?

Is Paul’s clear interpretation that Christians ARE Israel heretical becuase John Darby said so in the 1820′s?

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 3:17 PM

Think about it Apacalyps… does it make any sense whatsoever that all of the promises Christ makes to us Christians are really meant instead for the hebrews and judaism.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:06 AM

Nobody said that. Show me where I said that?

Who is Paul speaking to when he refers to the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 and numerous other verses?

Galatians 6:16 (“the Israel of God”) is the main passage people use to support this anti-semitic Replacement Theology view, and they use it as proof that the Church has “replaced” Israel. Galatians 6 verse 16 does not say that the Christian Church has replaced Israel, and it’s not saying that “the Israel of God” is the Church. I think you’re well-meaning Saint Olaf, but you are reading something that is not there. I blame you’re poor biblical interpretation on the Orthodox Church’s teachings, which is I think you get alot of your beliefs. The Orthodox Church have alot of screwy ideas on things Olaf, like remember when you tried to convince me that Christians should pray to Mary and the saints to get blessing from God? That is quite unbiblical. The Bible never infers that any saints, living or dead, sympathize with us more than God does, nor does it even once mention the possibilty of anyone praying to or through them, yet were trying to convince us it did. Replacement Theology is a shining example of poor biblical interpretation. The “Christian Church has replaced Israel” is a lie. Galatians 6:16 does not say any such thing. And this is the primary passage used as proof that the Church has “replaced” Israel! In Galatians 6:16, Paul was writing to the Gentile Christians telling them not to follow certain Jews who were recommending circumcision and Jewish ritualism in general for Christians. Paul scolded the Judaizers who said circumcision was necessary for salvation, because Christians were under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ rather than under the Law of Moses. Galatians 6:16 is insufficient grounds on which to base this erroneous concept that the Christian Church has replaced Israel.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 3:36 PM

after she dropped the detail about Israel’s brief incursion into Gaza after the election without explaining why they were there http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Nice picture at the link. There just happened to be a stuffed pink bunny, in pristine condition no less, at the top of a pile of rubble? What kind of fools do they take us for?

agmartin on December 31, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Gosh. I can even quote from the KJV:

“1 Chronicles 16:13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. [14] He is the LORD our G-d; his judgments are in all the earth. [15] Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; [16] Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; [17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.”

An incovenient truth.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 3:58 PM

“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither jew not greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:26-29

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Which came first, the Torah or the contradicting New Testament?

Or are you saying that G-d is fickle? Perhaps moody? Mondays and Thursdays, He likes us, Tuesdays and Thursdays you guys get His attention?

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Apacalyps,

Christians ARE Israel. This is 100% Biblical and there are so many Scriptures proving this that it is a major error to say otherwise.

I know this is a hard thing for you to understand because if you accept the truth of the Scriptures proving this, the you will have to rethink your end times eschatology.

But remember Apacalyps, as Christians we are not afraid of the truth..in fact we embrace it and it proves us right.

I know that you are sincere and I am sure that once you study the hundreds of Biblical verses proving this point you will eventually embrace the truth.

What did Christ mean when He cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit Apacalyps?

What does Israel is not of flesh and blood but of FAITH mean?

Why does Paul call the Church the Israel of God? Is he in serious error and a “racist” also?

Instead of inferring that I am a racist (which is a serious error), search the Scriptures and see that the Church is Israel for yourself. The reality is it is the ONLY thing that makes sense. It is 100% Biblical.

I’m sure you will eventually get it and ask my forgiveness for accusing me of racism, eventually.

As for what you keep mentioning, asking the Saints to have intercessory prayer for us, that IS 100% Biblical and I’ve already proven that in another thread.

1. The Saints are Living.(Do you deny that is Scriptural?)

2. The incense in Heaven before the throne is the intercessory prayer of the saints(do you deny those Scriptures also?)

Is your mother a mediator between you and Christ when she prays for you?

Of course not! Are any of the other Biblical references to us praying for others heretical also? Is the Bible not true?

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:25 PM

What did Christ mean when he cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit??

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:55 AM

“Now in the morning as he (Jesus) returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!” Matthew 21:18-20

He was thinking of Judah and Jerusalem, outwardly prosperous and religious, but inwardly spiritually barren. Israel had often been symbolized in Scripture as a fig tree (Hosea 9:10) and it’s religious leaders had rejected Him and were now intent on getting rid of Him. Accordingly, He cursed the fig tree (Mark 11:21) just as He cursed Adam and Eve and their disobedience. It was no different. The withering of the fig tree was symbolizing the terrible fate awaiting the Jews because of their spiritual unfruitfulness. Just look at all the trouble the Jewish people have had since that time. Throughout history, they have been persecuted, the Romans scattered the Jews across the world, Hitler, the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is re-emerging in Europe and rampant in the Islamic. Hate for the Jewish people is spreading like wildfire throughout the world – again!! Look, I pray the Jews learn the Truth and finally recognize Jesus as her Messiah, but the “cursed fig tree that didn’t bear fruit” has nothing to do with Replacement Theology, Olaf. Nowhere does this passage indicate that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Israel’s promises remain Israel’s promises. They have not been transferred to the Christian church. God has not forgotten the nation of Israel, Saint Olaf. He is going to one day restore them to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (See Romans chapter 11). When it’s all said and done, the Lord will rule from Israel. Jerusalem will be the center of everything that happens in the world. All those who persecuted Israel will be defeated (they are God’s enemies) and Israel will finally have the Messiah as King – as will Christians. Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the rebuilding of Israel and the time when God removes the curse from mankind. So, as long as Christians are still here we should continue to lobby and protect Israel. If the Lord supports Israel so should we!

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Which came first, the Torah or the contradicting New Testament?

Or are you saying that G-d is fickle? Perhaps moody? Mondays and Thursdays, He likes us, Tuesdays and Thursdays you guys get His attention?

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 4:22 PM

He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him.

The new testament does not contradict the old testament.

It fulfills it.

The Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

Judaism does not have the Father. It is an anti-Christ religion and a heresy.

Who do you think the Word of the Lord is?

Do you not know that God is a Holy Trinity?

Who is the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? Why does God refer to Himself as us?

Because He is a Tri-Unine Being.

I’d rather not debate with you because you don’t know the New Testament nor the power of God. You do not know of which you are speaking.

I think it’s hilarious that the protestants here are attacking me and say nothing about your anti-christ spirit inspired statements.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:44 PM

Nowhere does this passage indicate that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

Really?

You are leaving out the part where He says he will give the Kingdom to a nation that DOES bear fruit. That’s convenient.

And also Apacalyps what is the “nation” He is referring to?

Tell me, Is Christ’s kingdom of this world?

Is His a worldy kingdom?

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Apacalyps,

Christians ARE Israel.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:25 PM

The more times you say it Saint Olaf, doesn’t make it so. To argue that God has replaced Israel with the Christian church is to depart from a huge amount evidence in the Holy Bible. You’ve been misled by whoever, and are spreading anti-semitic lies.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 4:50 PM

Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the rebuilding of Israel.

I’ve already proven that all of the prophecies relating to the return of the hebrews to the land were fulfilled by the restoration of the temple when the hebrews were restored from captivity from Babylon BEFORE CHRIST was Incarnate.

Without that you have NO Biblical verses suporting your point!

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:52 PM

I gotta go. Thanks to all those who posted kind comments to me regarding this topic. And thank you “most of all” for supporting Israel. Later.

“I (God) will bless them that bless thee (Israel), and curse him that curseth thee” Genesis 12:3

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 4:53 PM

I think the link he gave above to the Antiochian Church legitimately defines him.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 1:22 PM

You’re right-I didn’t check that link earlier. Seems to me they’re a bunch of closet anti-semities.

thinkagain on December 31, 2008 at 5:00 PM

Look I’m going to end this right now by providing numerous Biblical references proving this point.

If you have a problem with this view take it up with the Holy bible or convert to the anti-christ religion of judaism if you like..

OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
THE BELOVED OF GOD
A) Israel Is Beloved Of God:
- Ex. 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God:
- Lev. 3:16, Jer. 12:8, Jer. 16:5, Hos. 9:15
C) Christians Are Beloved Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
- Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God:
- Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
- John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1
THE FIELD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Field Of God:
- Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Field Of God:
- 1 Cor. 3:9
THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A) Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- Psa. 78:52, Psa. 80:1, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1,2,3, Jer. 31:10, Eze. 34:12,15,16, Mic. 5:4, Zec. 10:3
B) Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- John 10:14,16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Pet. 2:25, 1 Pet. 5:2,3
THE HOUSE OF GOD
A) Israel Is The House Of God:
- Num. 12:7
B) Christians Are The House Of God:
- 1 Tim. 3:15, Heb. 3:2,5,6, Heb. 10:21, 1 Pet. 4:17
THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
- Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
- Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
- Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6
THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
- Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God:
- Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14
THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
- Ex. 19:6
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God:
- 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
- 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10
THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Vineyard Of God:
- Isa. 5:3,4,5,7, Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Vineyard Of God:
- Luke 20:16

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 5:03 PM

THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- Isa. 54:5,6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hos. 1:2
B) Disobedient Israelites Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- Jer. 3:8, Hos. 2:2
C) The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:31,32
THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A) The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham:
- 2 Chr. 20:7, Psa. 105:6, Isa. 41:8
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham:
- John 8:39, Rom. 9:6,7, Gal. 4:25,30
C) The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham:
- Rom. 4:11,16, Gal. 3:7,29, Gal. 4:23,28,31
THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A) The Israelites Are The Chosen People:
- Deut. 7:7, Deut. 10:15, Deut. 14:2, Isa. 43:20,21
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People:
- Deut. 31:17, 2 Ki. 17:20, 2 Chr. 25:7, Psa. 78:59, Jer. 6:30, Jer. 7:29, Jer. 14:10
C) The Christians Are The Chosen People:
- Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 2:9
THE CIRCUMCISED
A) The Israelites Are The Circumcised:
- Gen. 17:10, Jud. 15:18
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised:
- Jer. 9:25,26, Rom. 2:25,28, Phil. 3:2
C) The Christians Are The Circumcised:
- Rom. 2:29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11
ISRAEL
A) Israel is Israel
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites:
- Num. 15:30,31, Deut. 18:19, Acts 3:23, Rom. 9:6
C) The Christians Are Israel:
- John 11:50,51,52, 1 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 6:15,16, Eph. 2:12,19

JERUSALEM
A) Jerusalem Is the City And Mother Of Israel:
- Psa. 149:2, Isa. 12:6, Isa. 49:18,20,22, Isa. 51:18, Lam. 4:2
B) Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians:
- Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22
THE JEWS
A) Israelites Are Jews
- Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8,9, Zech. 8:22,23
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews:
- Rom. 2:28, Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9
C) The Christians Are Jews:
- Rom. 2:29
THE NEW COVENANT
A) The New Covenant Is With Israel:
- Jer. 31:31,33
B) The New Covenant Is With The Christians:
- Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:6,8,10
AN OLIVE TREE
A) Israel Is An Olive Tree:
- Jer. 11:16, Hos. 14:6
B) The Christians Are An Olive Tree:
- Rom. 11:24

Man I could go on and on with about three more long posts like this but i will spare you as this is more than enough..like I said if you have a problem with this view take it up with the Bible or convert to another religion.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 5:06 PM

Sorry, was ready to leave and saw this:

As for what you keep mentioning, asking the Saints to have intercessory prayer for us, that IS 100% Biblical and I’ve already proven that in another thread.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:25 PM

You did not prove that, lol. You keep saying this. “I’ve proven it! I’ve proven it!” Without proving anything, okay, lol. Praying to Mary and the saints is unbiblical, man. The Bible does not teach this – at all. Show me one verse where anyone is praying to or through them. And explain what that verse is saying. No. On second thought. Show me a few verses where where anyone is praying to or through Mary and the saints. There ya go. Now you can prove it! Now, I really gotta go. Ciao.

apacalyps on December 31, 2008 at 5:12 PM

He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him.

The new testament does not contradict the old testament.

It fulfills it.

The Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

Do a word search for jesus or christ anywhere in the Tanach. Zippo.

Read any ancient historical scriptures or texts written about Israel prior to the advent of Christianity and – zippo again. No reference to any such pagan beliefs amongst the Jewish nation at any time.

Judaism does not have the Father. It is an anti-Christ religion and a heresy.

So G-d at Sinai instructed His people to practice heresy and go against something called a christ which no Jew had ever heard of or imagined about until more than 1000 years after the Torah was given?

Who do you think the Word of the Lord is?

Christian newfangled terminology. Words are words and lords are lords.

Do you not know that God is a Holy Trinity?

On the contrary! Even Jesus didn’t know what a trinity was:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” – Mark XII 29

Who is the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? Why does God refer to Himself as us?

Because He is a Tri-Unine Being.

Nope. G-d never refers to himself as “us”.

Read: What is the meaning of God said: “Let us make man in our image?

Read: Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

I’d rather not debate with you because you don’t know the New Testament nor the power of God. You do not know of which you are speaking.

You’re an arrogant ignoramous of the Tanach. You cannot prove any of your claims except through NT quotations, which aren’t worth squat in consideration of what G-d has previously stated in the Tanach. You’re desparately dependent on circular reasoning by proving Jesus by what it states in the New Testament. That’s because you have nothing to stand on in G-d’s original unchangeable Torah.

You represent 2000 years of blatant falacy.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 5:15 PM

This is more hilarious than the interview itself.

Happy New Year!

Reaps on December 31, 2008 at 5:51 PM

The Torah teaches that, although Israel often fell short of fulfilling their end of the agreement made at Sinai and, in effect, broke the covenant, G-d has stated on many occasions that He will not break His covenant with Israel:

Leviticus 26:44-45 – (44) And despite all this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant with them; for I am the L-rd their G-d. (45) And I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d to them; I am the L-rd.

Judges 2:1 – And an angel of the L-rd came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said [in G-d's name], “I will bring you up from Egypt, and I have brought you to the land which I swore to your forefathers, and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.’

Ezekiel 16:59-60 – (59) For thus said the L-rd G-d [to Jerusalem]: “I have done with you in accordance to that which you have done, that you have despised an oath in breaking a covenant. (60) Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.

Psalms 105:8-10 – (8) He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. (9) That which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac; (10) And He established it for Jacob as a law, and for Israel as an everlasting covenant;

There is no argument about the fact that Israel has strayed from the path many times since the promise was made at Mount Sinai, and for which Israel has suffered the consequences. Yet, the Torah clearly shows that G-d will neither break that covenant nor replace the Torah – The Torah is eternal.

Shy Guy on December 31, 2008 at 6:11 PM

On the contrary! Even Jesus didn’t know what a trinity was:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” – Mark XII 29

Again you have proven your ignorance of the Holy Scriptures.

Jesus Christ Himself teaches us of the Holy Trinity..

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”
Matthew 28:19-20

FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT
have One Nature, One Essence.
Thus the Three Persons are the Trinity, One in Essence.

God is a Holy Trinity. A Trinity Consubstantial and indivisible. Consubstantial, i.e., one essence, one nature. A Trinity indivisible: the Son has never been divided from the Father, nor the Holy Spirit from the Father or the Son, and never will be divided.

Here is your problem..your understanding of the Holy Scriptures is completely wrong because you do not understand that the Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST!

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:44-46

The God whom you claim to worship YHWH is in fact Jesus Christ(God the Word). One cannot see God the Father.
All manifestations of God are in fact Christ Jesus ,God the word.

The hospitality of Abraham is a representation of the Holy Trinity.

And God appeared to him by the oak of Mamre, as Abraham sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and beholds three men stood before him. When he saw them, he ran from the door of the tent to meet them. He bowed himself down to the earth and said, ‘Lord,if I have found favor in Thy sight, do not pass by Thy servant”
(Genesis 18:1-3)

Some Holy Scripture references on the Most Holy Trinity, Whom Abraham addressed in the Old Testament among the three angels symbolize the Trinity, and that is whom Abraham was talking to was God the Son, the God of the Old Testament. Read Genesis 1:27. Read first Psalm 32:6 and then read Job 33:4. Daniel 3:8-30. As God as the consuming fire read Deut. 4:24; Heb. 12:29. We see our God as ‘Holy’ read: Isa. 6:1-3. Christ as the Son of Man read Daniel 7: 13, 14. also read St. Matthew 25:31. “Take not the Holy Spirit from me.” Read Ps. 51:3. Read also Numbers 11:16-17 as the Hebrew elders where calling upon the grace of the Holy Spirit to come upon them all. “Word became flesh” (John 1:14).

As for who is israel..I have already definitively proven beyond a doubt with hundreds of Scriptural references(a few posts above) that it is the Christians that are the Israel of God.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:53 PM

If she told the truth the disciples of the religion of peace would have thrown acid on her.

DL13 on December 31, 2008 at 7:35 PM

As they say, don’t feed the trolls (St Olaf) otherwise they keep coming back. Anybody with half-a-brain would not take this moron seriously.

I suspect he’s either a muslim or liberal posing as a Christian or he’s one of those pacifist Christians that welcomes his own enslavement or death at the hands of his enemies.

thinkagain on December 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

SaintOlaf, SaintOlaf… is SaintOlaf the guy/gal who was claiming – quite insistently, as I recall – that Barack Obama is NOT in fact half-black, but rather 1/4 Arab and 1/4 black? As I remember it, Baldilocks had to get involved on that one.

SaintOlaf: You dismiss the term ‘dhimmi’ too quickly to sway any of us who are familiar with the general concept of dhimmitude, and also the way it has affected Palestinian Christians of the Edward Said variety.

If you come back with a detailed refutation of the body of claims based on this scholarship, or can point us to such a document, then we will start there. Until then, I’m left scratching my head wondering, how can someone look at this situation and side with Hamas, any more than they could look at Barack Obama and believe with a straight face that he’s ARAB?

If you want to do the Christian thing, and side with some Christians in the Holy Land, why don’t you start with the Maronites – who are taking fire from every position imaginable w/o any help from your lot – instead of the dhimmi Christians who are either openly hostile or studiously indifferent to the Maronites’ plight and perfectly happy, it seems, to let the likes of Hizballah or Hamas drive (or wipe) them out?

Your call. But you call yourself a Christian, so I thought I’d suggest that, perhaps, it’s time for you to wake up and start behaving like one.

RD on December 31, 2008 at 10:23 PM

As for who is israel..I have already definitively proven beyond a doubt with hundreds of Scriptural references(a few posts above) that it is the Christians that are the Israel of God.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 6:53 PM

You claim to make your case based on the Bible, but you ignore the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient for your argument. It’s strikingly dishonest to list all those Bible verses while skipping over Romans 11 that actually addresses the relationship of the churches of God to Israel:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Note that blindness in part has happened to Israel (present tense), until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (future tense). And then, all Israel (no longer in part) will be saved (future tense.)

And Paul wrote this so that Christians would not be wise in their own conceits.

Isn’t the idea that God is through with Israel a conceit, because it would put you more at the center of God’s universe? “Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.”

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Then Paul quotes from Old Testament prophecy about the last days. Now, you could argue that this was already fulfilled by the church. Except that this was written in the first century AD, which would be after the prophecy was supposedly fulfilled. And Paul is clearly saying it will be future.

Now you may say that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was in the future of the epistle, and that Paul could have been referring to that. That would be plausible, except that the destruction of Jerusalem did not see anything at all like “all Israel being saved.”

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Some opposition and conflict between Jews and Christians is inevitable over the core of Christianity, the Gospel. But we should never be enemies in any other sense of the word. Christians are called to love the Jews, and to love Israel.

Israel has not been replaced. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God said to Jeremiah that He had not divorced Israel, and that is still true.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You ignore the parts of the Bible that speak the most to the issue. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and, as he himself put it, a “Hebrew of the Hebrews.” It’s hardly surprising that he spent some time talking about the issues of Israel and the churches of God. I have quoted only eight verses, and it’s enough to smash the pretense that God has discarded Israel. There’s much more, such as the discussion earlier in Romans 11 about how God grafted us into the “good olive tree” that is Israel. Or about how God still has His remnant of Israel that is faithful to Him, and how the whole nation will turn to him again.

Now, there have always been those who are of Israel by birth, but not of God because they have rejected Him. So it only makes sense that those who have come to God, though Gentiles, should be grafted in to the promises made to Israel. But they have not therefore replaced Israel.

Bear in mind that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who spent his life going to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel, always started his preaching in a new city by going to the synagogue first. He even says as much repeatedly in Romans 1-3, “to the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles.”

And one of the ministries Paul carried out with keen interest was the collecting of money and food from the Gentiles to give to the Jewish Christians who were undergoing a famine. Paul sought to bring the Jews and the Gentiles together. This was referenced in several epistles, but the reference in Romans 15 is especially on-topic:

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Note again that the Gentiles were made partakers of the Jews‘ spiritual things, and had a duty to help them with carnal or physical things.

Jews in America have learned recently that evangelical Christians are friends to Israel. Gentile Christians in Paul’s day were friends of Israel. It’s very disturbing to read comments such as yours that undermine that fact and encourage Jews to believe that Christians are against them.

ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on December 31, 2008 at 11:43 PM

Me:

Mark XII 29

You:

Again you have proven your ignorance of the Holy Scriptures.

Jesus Christ Himself teaches us of the Holy Trinity..

Matthew 28:19-20

Let me make myself clearer to you. I do not mean to say that the NT does not advocate a trinity. It does, just as you point to its well know verses. The problem is back in Mark XII – look at the context.

There, verses 28 through 34 are Jesus’ dialogue with the Pharisee scribes. Verse 29 is the essential commandment of Israel relating to G-d’s Oneness. Here, according to Mark, Jesus introduces no hint of the trinity, whose concept again is elementary heresy to Judaism and always was such from time immemorial. And so the scribes answered back in verse 32 what was obvious to them and our Jewish ancestors for 1000s of years prior: “And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he.”

So you can either decide whether Jesus was 2-faced, saying one thing (or perhaps a half truth, according to you) to the scribes and another thing altogether to his disciples, or whether Mark and Matthew’s texts don’t jive with one another (no lack of NT examples). Frankly, it makes no difference to me.

Here is your problem..your understanding of the Holy Scriptures is completely wrong because you do not understand that the Old Testament is ALL ABOUT CHRIST!

Repeating something ad nauseum doesn’t make it true. As already pointed out, terms like jesus and christ and father/son/holy-ghost are nowhere to be found in the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures. Nor can you find not even one single historical reference, dating from prior to the appearance of new testament texts, which even hints that any of these pagan concepts were part and parcel of anything having to do with the Torah or the nation of Israel. You have struck out – again.

Let’s go on…

Luke 24:44-46

I’ve been trying to remind you, but you fail to comprehend, that since Judaism’s view of other Christianity is that it is one large fabrication, your reference to verses within the New Testament as proof to Jews that they are mistaken amounts to primitive circular reasoning.

That’s why you now begin to try and bring “proofs” of trinity doctrine from the Tanach itself. Very well. Let’s examine your claims, verse by verse.

(Genesis 18:1-3)

Some Holy Scripture references on the Most Holy Trinity, Whom Abraham addressed in the Old Testament among the three angels symbolize the Trinity, and that is whom Abraham was talking to was God the Son, the God of the Old Testament.

And yet it does not say so. People/angels are mentioned. Nothing of a god, let alone a 3-faceted one. The magic words “father, son and holy ghost” do not appear here, In fact, they do not appear anywhere – not even once – in the entire Tanach. Strange that. You feel forced to hammer a round peg into a square hole. You have little alternative.

Moving right along…

Read first Psalm 32:6 and then read Job 33:4

I have no idea where you see an allusion to trinity in Psalm 32. Let’s quote, using the KJV, just to be sure it’s to my disadvantage:

5I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

Nope. No trinity/FSHG mentioned there, either. But you want me to associate that somehow with Job 33:4:

4The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Nope. Zippo. Nada. In Hebrew, the words are “Ruach El”, simply meaning “the spirit of G-d”. The Tanach is full of references to spirit, of G-d or of people, and all of them, like here in Job 33, don’t mention a trinity.

BTW, how is your grasp of Hebrew?

Next:

Daniel 3:8-30

Here we’ll ask you how is your grasp of Aramaic? Mine is intermediary, after an adult lifetime of studying the Babylonian Talmud, the majority of whose text is in Aramaic.

This is the story of Chananya, Mishael and Azariah (their Aramaic names being Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) being cast into the fiery furnace by Nevuchadnetzar and coming out alive and unsinged.

Your excitement is obviously over verse 25. Let’s first quote the KJV to point out what makes you so happy:

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Just one problem. That’s wishful thinking into what the Aramaic term “bar elohin” means. First let’s see the standard literal translation of the same verse:

He answered and said: ‘Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.’

For those of you not experienced with the terminology “bar elohim” in Aramaic or “bnei elohim” in Hebrew – throughout Tanach – the term always refers to an angel or a highly influencial person. Before you see examples in Genesis 6:2, Exodus 22:7, 8, 27, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, look no futher than 3 verses ahead in this Chapter of Daniel, verse 28, even using the KJV for your benefit:

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

So, is it your son of god or an angel? Can you make up your mind?

We Jews, not only still study in Aramaic, we also have a few prayers remaining from Babylonian times, still in Aramaic. One of them is “B’rich Sh’meih D’Marei Alma”, meaning “Blessed is the name of the Master of the universe.” We recite this prayer any time a portion of the Torah is read in the Synagogue, when the Ark of the Torah has been opened. Today, Thursday, is one of those times.

In that prayer, among other things, we Jews declare our dependence on G-d, exclusive of any other force, with following words, 2 of them should be recognizable to you by now:

“Lo al enash rachizna v’lo al bar elohin somichna. Elah b’Elaha d’Shemaya”

Meaning “I do not rely on man and I do not depend on angels. Rather (my reliance is) on The G-d of the Heavens”. We’ve been saying this prayer from before the time Jesus was just a gleem in his mother’s eye. We’ve not changed the text, nor the meaning.

The truth hurts, Olaf, but, how shall I say it, it will set you free. But not if you close your eyes shut and shove your fingers in your ears. You’re just lying to yourself.

Moving right along…

As God as the consuming fire read Deut. 4:24

Here it is: “For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.”

So? Again, no trinity or FSHG mentioned. In fact, browse down to verse 35 in that chapter and you’ll find just the opposite:

“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”

And again I am quoting from the KJV.

You continued with:

We see our God as ‘Holy’ read: Isa. 6:1-3

The word “holy” in Hebrew is “kadosh”. We Jews used this word to describe our awe, fear and humble respect for G-d way before the advent of Christianity. It is irrelevent to any claims of trinity or FSHG doctrines.

Isaiah 6:3 states:

“And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.”

I realize that you are infatuated with the number three but, sadly for you, no trinity nor FSHG mentioned yet again.

Maybe you should become a binitarian, based on 1 Kings 18:39:

“And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.”

Hey, binitarianism was good enough for early Christians but you don’t wanna go there. It’s a good thing the Council of Nicaea eventually came around and put a stop to playing the numbers. It just took Christianity 325 years to get there. Now that’s a pretty big number!

Reading up on the history of the trinity doctrine formulation is almost comical.

Sorry. I needed a moment of humor. Back to your “proofs”:

Christ as the Son of Man read Daniel 7: 13, 14

KJV: “13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You already know I can easily point out, as I did above, that “son of man” is ambiguous, always referring to angels or persons of high influence, which is what this verse is referring to.

How do I know this? Context. Read the whole chapter. Daniel had these visions in a dream. Verses 2 through 15 are Daniel’s own words recollecting his vision. Verses 16 through 27 are the dreams interpretation. Contrast verse 14′s vision to its interpretation in verse 27:

“27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

The people. Israel. Here you have the true story of the end of days, as Jews have always proclaimed from time imemorial.

Almost finished. Next you state:

Read Ps. 51:3.

KJV:

“For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.”

No trinity or FSHG there. I must confess you’re consistant!

Finally, we get to your last claim to fame:

Read also Numbers 11:16-17

KJV:

16 The LORD said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone.

Spirit of G-d? Yes, I never argued.

Trinity? Not mentioned here. Tsk.

Father/son/holy ghost? Not mentioned here, either. Tsk.

While you indeed do show a tremendous amount of ignorance when it comes to the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures, it is the act of ignoring which highlights your foundationless claims.

I thank you for this opportunity. Have a nice day.

Shy Guy on January 1, 2009 at 3:59 AM

Speaking of targeting mosques, here’s why and how:

IAF Video: Attack on rocket mosque

Shy Guy on January 1, 2009 at 4:26 AM

You are leaving out the part where He says he will give the Kingdom to a nation that DOES bear fruit. That’s convenient.

SaintOlaf on December 31, 2008 at 4:48 PM

I don’t appreciate your suggestion that I am being deceptive to make an argument. I would not purposely leave out Scripture to make my point. Please tell me which “part” I left out that nullifies, and this is important, that nullifies the fact that the “withering of the fig tree” symbolized the terrible fate awaiting the Jews because of their rejection of Christ? Jesus cursed the fig tree (Mark 11:21) just as He cursed Adam and Eve and their disobedience. It was no different. You asked, “What did Christ mean when he cursed the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit??” That is the answer and the meaning of the “cursed fig tree”. Throughout history the Jewish people have been persecuted exactly as Christ foretold. Nowhere does this passage indicate (anywhere) that the Christian church has replaced Israel in God’s plan! Nowhere! Israel’s promises remain Israel’s promises. They have not been transferred to the Christian church. And this is one of the passages you are using to support replacement theology that teaches that Christians have replaced Israel in God’s plan! If somebody is being dishonest regarding this passage it is not me.

apacalyps on January 1, 2009 at 2:22 PM

Secondly, Saint Olaf, I had a chance to read that article you posted by the Orthodox church titled, “Who is the NEW Israel,” and that was anti-Semitic trash. Spin it however you like, if that is what they believe then the Orthodox Church is spreading antisemitic propaganda. And if you believe it you have been brainwashed. Indeed, disturbing anti-Semitic rhetoric has surfaced here in some of your comments, enough that I can not support a person with such views. You might say 10 things that are true and I agree with, but if you are spreading hate against Jews and anti-Israeli sentiment, and calling God a liar in the process by implying that He has washed His hands of the Jewish people and Israel, it does not look good on me to defend such a person. I was not aware you felt this way about Israel and the Jewish people. At first, I was taken aback and angered at your deceptive statements, but I am more dissapointed than anything else. I really am. Of course, I will still discuss issues with you, but until you denounce this anti-semitic replacement theology lie, and accept what God’s Word says, that Israel is and always has been the apple of God’s eye; For the Lord God Almighty has declared of Israel: “for he that toucheth you (Israel) toucheth the apple of his (God’s) eye” (Zechariah 2:8) I must withdraw my support and refute your preposterous claim that the Christian church is Israel’s replacement, the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and that God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. This false teaching only adds anti-Israeli sentiment to a world where anti-semitism is on the rise. People persecute Jews and think they are offering a service to God is not something I want to be a part of.

apacalyps on January 1, 2009 at 3:14 PM

And lastly Saint Olaf, your remark that I am worried about having to “rethink” my end times eschatology (as if that is my concern in all of this) sorry, but I think you’re being a little sophomoric. I’ve stated repeatedly I am for truth and against error. Period. If something’s true, I’m for it. If something’s false, I’m against it. And I search the Scriptures, to see if those things are so. God knows that I want to be accurate and would never purposely tell a lie to promote my point. I’m not worried about having to “rethink” my end times eschatology as you say, I would gladly change my position on something if it was proven I was wrong. I am worried about people’s lives, okay. The way you are vilifying Jews is impossible. You are spreading hate and propoganda with this replacement theology which translates into anti-semitism and persecution of God’s people. Replacement theology is a lie, it is anti-biblical, anti-Semitic, it is a lie straight from the pits of Hell, and it is particularly detestable to all believers in Christ because it attempts to makes God a liar because it cancels His promises to the nation Israel. End of story.

apacalyps on January 1, 2009 at 3:24 PM

“For I am with thee (Israel), saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee (I will destroy those nations that persecute you), yet I will not make a full end of thee (the people of Israel will continue): but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” Jeremiah 30:11

I will not make a full end of thee. This amazing prophecy has been fulfilled now continually for over 2500 years! Nation after nation which persecuted the Israelites in their dispersion throughout the nations have eventually fallen, with some yet to come, but the people of Israel still continue. Scripture right here tells us that God’s promises to the Jews, including the land of Israel, are still intact. He’s promised to preserve them. God still has a plan for the Jewish people and Israel. You just read it! The LORD said, “I will not make a full end of thee (Israel).” God did not wash His hands of the Jews and tell the “Christians to take their place.” Replacement theology is a lie from Satan. It is utter blasphemy because it calls God a liar! That is why it must be categorically rejected and refuted. God does not break His promises to anybody.

apacalyps on January 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM

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