therefore there is no “wrong” interpretation.

I beg to differ.

obviously *WE* do…each of us has to determine what God means by what He says in the bible…
right4life on January 1, 2009 at 9:01 AM

Then you help make my point, if you are the ultimate authority as to what God says, you can determine what God means.
In other words, each of us has our own definition…think about what you said, think about what you believe…you believe any interpretation, therefore there is no “wrong” interpretation.
This, I hope, has been a good exercise in looking at your faith and where you get authority…

This from the guy who doesn’t understand the versatility of a Greek word like doulos. Lawl.

Ryan Gandy on January 1, 2009 at 1:29 AM

Not worth responding to…you obviously know nothing about me or my education.

Really? I almost thought you were a Calvinist.

You also miss my point…
on earth, who determines what God means?

no I didn’t miss your point. its just been gone over so much…obviously *WE* do…each of us has to determine what God means by what He says in the bible….and we have this religion, called ‘christianity’ that has gone over all of these issues ad nauseam…and we have determined what is a primary issue, and what is a secondary issue. and slavery is a secondary issue. Slavery isn’t a primary issue…shocking isn’t it? as I said before, God gives us leeway in ordering our societies….free will…another shock!!

You say God did not condone slavery, I say he does…

where did I say that…post your proof. The bible accepts slavery obviously. so? the bible accepts death and poverty…so??

You bring in so many disjointed issues…I will ask you once more…do you think God condoned slavery? If not, show me the verses where he condemned it.
He condemned poverty, he condemned death…
Please be more reasonable in your arguments.
Now what denomination do you worship with? You seem to be dodging that question

sigh..they’re not ‘disjointed’ show me where the bible condemns poverty or death. how can God ‘condemn’ death, when it is a righteous judgment of His, for our sin?? He overcomes it for us, but doesn’t ‘condemn’ it. same for poverty…its a result of our actions….how can He ‘condemn’ it?? and where does He ‘condemn’ it?

you have a shallow understanding of the bible, apparently. its not like these are new issues you raise…and your failure to see the larger picture is telling.

as far as ‘dodging’ when did you ever ask me? sounds like you’ve confused me with someone else. I go a non-denominational church…you would call me a pentacostal/charismatic.

Thanks for the response. Still waiting for any clue as to where you get the idea it was “against the law of the land” for Paul to send Onesimus back to Philemon, and I’m curious if you conflated this situation with the Northern states who had laws against returning slaves to the South prior to the Civil War?

Paul never condoned, nor condemned slavery…Paul’s mission was to transform relationships (in this one page letter).

I actually agree with this statement. However, I’m getting a little dizzy trying to follow the “Paul didn’t condone slavery, but did send Onesimus back” and “Jesus used slavery in parables, and didn’t explicitly reject OT slavery laws, so he condoned slavery” and “the Bible (and Jesus) condone slavery- if you don’t, you’re not following the Bible” logic.

Anyway, this thread will probably drop off the front page soon.

Happy New Year to you as well.

And I might add, what every Christian fears and tries to hide, the bible, both the OT and the NT, never condemns slavery, indeed they set about an abundance of rules to make sure the slave is treated fairly, but never do they say “release the slaves”, the fact is, the bible condoned slavery.
So if you are a Christian, you are doing no wrong, according to scripture.

right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 6:32 PM

I didn’t say Christians as individuals…

right2bright on December 31, 2008 at 2:52 PM

The evidence would seem to indicate ya did, Jackass…

I have verses to back me up, you have your feelings.

This from the guy who doesn’t understand the versatility of a Greek word like doulos. Lawl.

Any thoughts?

cs89 on December 31, 2008 at 3:26 PM

I don’t get this “hung up” since all of my responses have been to others posting about this. Don’t mention it, and I won’t respond.
Here is my thoughts:
Paul never condoned, nor condemned slavery…Paul’s mission was to transform relationships (in this one page letter).
Philemon was a letter and a lesson on how to deal with conflict between Christians (as well as forgiveness).
Happy New Year…

sigh.

right4life on December 31, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Yes, sigh…
You also miss my point…
on earth, who determines what God means?
You say God did not condone slavery, I say he does…I have verses to back me up, you have your feelings.

so does the bible condone poverty? since the poor you have among you always…how about death, since it is appointed for man to die, then comes judgement??

You bring in so many disjointed issues…I will ask you once more…do you think God condoned slavery? If not, show me the verses where he condemned it.
He condemned poverty, he condemned death…
Please be more reasonable in your arguments.
Now what denomination do you worship with? You seem to be dodging that question…

Okay, Okay. Slavery is bad. But can I hold it over my kids’ heads to make them clean their rooms?

Sponsor backs them then pays a shitload less than the American who could do the job.

No surprise here.

Baptists, Methodists, and other churches literally split into two “churches” over the slavery issue…

what a shock!! christian churches splitting over differences!!! amazing! its never ever happened before…well except for the whole orthodox/catholic thing around 1000 AD and the protestant reformation and split from catholicism….

yes christians disagree on secondary issues!!! amazing isn’t it…but we don’t over fundamental issues…and yes the church has long ago decided what is a primary and a secondary issue…thats why mormons are NOT christians, as much as they proclaim they are…and catholics and protestants, and orthodox are….

we’ve been at this a while…and have all your so-called ‘issues’ settled long ago.

I didn’t say Christians as individuals, unless you are incredibly dense, you know I am talking about scripture.
Do you believe that the bible supported banning slavery? Do you think that God condemned slavery, or did he provide guidance as to how to care for slaves?

you miss the point entirely. what inspired men like Wilberforce were their deep faith.

no other faith inspired the ending of slavery.

The individual people who stood against the bible edict of condoning slavery (in the U.S.)

so does the bible condone poverty? since the poor you have among you always…how about death, since it is appointed for man to die, then comes judgement??

you make straw man arguments, because you have nothing better to offer.

once again, I get back to my basic question…who has the authority to determine God’s Word?

He does. and He’s made it really clear, to any who choose to listen. its all in the bible…and its really not hard.

as far as God ‘changing His mind’ obviously not. again all you can do is spout meaningless lines that have been rehashed for millenia about christianity. can’t you ‘evolve’ some new lines at least???

sigh.

“But without your consent, I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary.”

Any thoughts?

Of course the rest of the story is that Paul broke the law returning the slave…the law of that land was to not return the slave, but let him be free.

You know, you brought this up earlier, and I asked you about it. Don’t think I saw any response from you. What law was Paul breaking?

Put up or shut up time- or at least quit recycling crap you can’t prove in the same thread.

In the NT the Apostle Paul actually sends a runaway slave back to his owner(but also asks for his release so he could serve(help) Paul.
Corsair on December 31, 2008 at 2:47 PM

Of course the rest of the story is that Paul broke the law returning the slave…the law of that land was to not return the slave, but let him be free.
So he did two things that I feel was immoral, one against Jesus’s edict, that is to follow the laws of the land, which Paul ignored. And the second, more of a moral issue, is that he led a free man back to slavery.
Call “indentured servants” what you may if that makes you feel better, but most were slaves for life.
But no doubt, the bible condoned slavery…

and pray tell me what other religion ever worked to ban slavery? and who were the men behind banning slavery? what religion were they?

please list for me the muslim/hindu/atheist/any other abolition societies other than christian

right4life on December 31, 2008 at 11:25 AM

I didn’t say Christians as individuals, unless you are incredibly dense, you know I am talking about scripture.
Do you believe that the bible supported banning slavery? Do you think that God condemned slavery, or did he provide guidance as to how to care for slaves?
The individual people who stood against the bible edict of condoning slavery (in the U.S.) are the brave ones. Baptists, Methodists, and other churches literally split into two “churches” over the slavery issue…one supporting slavery as biblical, the other saying it was historical and Jesus would (note the word “would”) have spoken for freedom…as I feel He WOULD have, but he didn’t 2,000 years ago…so was God right then but would be wrong now? Did God change his mind, or do we now interpret the bible different for the times we live in…once again, I get back to my basic question…who has the authority to determine God’s Word?
Obviously man has problems with it…and if God is never changing, what has changed to make slavery “sinful” or wrong.
You never answered my question…what denomination do you worship with?

And I might add, what every Christian fears and tries to hide, the bible, both the OT and the NT, never condemns slavery, indeed they set about an abundance of rules to make sure the slave is treated fairly, but never do they say “release the slaves”, the fact is, the bible condoned slavery.
So if you are a Christian, you are doing no wrong, according to scripture.

right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 6:32 PM

While the bible never condemns slavery, it puts quite a few rules in place to protect slaves(owned by Christians)(and by Jews in the OT) Slavery under the Mosaic Law was more like extreme indentured servitude(it allowed for your freedom after pay-off what you owed/served a specific time. The only ones who were slaves for life were those who chose to become slaves for life – usually because they loved their master. In the NT the Apostle Paul actually sends a runaway slave back to his owner(but also asks for his release so he could serve(help) Paul.
Does this mean that we as Christians should not complain about slavery? I cannot think of any modern slavery that contains the protections of the slaves that the Jews had. We need to speak out against the abuse of the helpless wherever it happens.

And I might add, what every Christian fears and tries to hide,

right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 6:32 PM

alright, you’re onto us..guess I gotta fess up…

you know Jesus said ‘the poor you have with you always’

what people don’t know, outside the elect, is that its OK to oppress people, and keep them poor!! since Jesus said we’re gonna have the poor around anyway…we decided it’d be more fun to KEEP EM POOR!!

yeah, its one of our ‘hidden’ sacraments…we do everything possible to make the poor even poorer, and take everything we can from those who have, in order to make THEM poor..and its a lot of fun besides!!

And I might add, what every Christian fears and tries to hide

in your dreams. laughable.

And I might add, what every Christian fears and tries to hide, the bible, both the OT and the NT, never condemns slavery, indeed they set about an abundance of rules to make sure the slave is treated fairly, but never do they say “release the slaves”, the fact is, the bible condoned slavery.
So if you are a Christian, you are doing no wrong, according to scripture.

right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 6:32 PM

and pray tell me what other religion ever worked to ban slavery? and who were the men behind banning slavery? what religion were they?

please list for me the muslim/hindu/atheist/any other abolition societies other than christian

Reader Digest had this story 6 months ago.

http://tinyurl.com/8tu5k4

Check it out if you want to “read more about it”.

Although this lengthy report from the AP Wire (via Hot Air) doesn’t mention Islam, those who understand what’s going on can certainly tell what can be behind this, and the cause of it:…