Slavery spreads from Africa to the US
posted at 9:40 am on December 29, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The AP’s Rukmini Callimachi gives a heartbreaking report on a phenomenon that has spread to the US and Europe but has not garnered much attention. Wealthy immigrants from African countries have child labor imported to the US, where they work as slaves to the families who host them. Their sponsoring families, and even their biological families, say they should be grateful to have a higher standard of living than what they would have otherwise had in poverty, but the abuse and damage done is obvious:
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal but common practice in Africa. Families in remote villages send their daughters to work in cities for extra money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life. Some girls work for free on the understanding that they will at least be better fed in the home of their employer.
The custom has led to the spread of trafficking, as well-to-do Africans accustomed to employing children immigrate to the U.S. Around one-third of the estimated 10,000 forced laborers in the United States are servants trapped behind the curtains of suburban homes, according to a study by the National Human Rights Center at the University of California at Berkeley and Free the Slaves, a nonprofit group. No one can say how many are children, especially since their work can so easily be masked as chores.
Once behind the walls of gated communities like this one, these children never go to school. Unbeknownst to their neighbors, they live as modern-day slaves, just like Shyima, whose story is pieced together through court records, police transcripts and interviews.
Shyima is one of the fortunate ones freed from slavery. She now refuses to speak in Arabic and has cut off all ties with her family in Egypt for selling her into bondage to pay off medical bills incurred by the family. Her parents and siblings see it differently. Despite being confined to a garage with no light, heat, or air conditioning, her mother claimed that it still beats living in their Egyptian tenement. Shyima’s sisters insist that she got opportunities they will never know by working as a child slave to the doctor and his wife, who both spent more than two years in American prisons for their crime and got deported after their release.
While working for the Ibrahims, Shyima never went to school. She worked from sunrise to well into the night. Neighbors recall seeing her washing dishes until midnight on occasion, although it never crossed their minds that she was doing anything other than normal chores. She did all the laundry but could not wash her own clothes or bedding in the machines; Shyima had to wash her own laundry in a bucket outside the garage and hang-dry the clothes. Until an anonymous caller tipped Child Protective Services to her plight, Shyima never thought of escape — and in fact was so afraid of what would happen to her that she lied to investigators for months while they pieced together what had happened to her.
Now Shyima is free, but no one really knows how many more like Shyima are in the US or Europe, locked behind the doors of homes, unable to call for help and unknowing that they should.
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right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Which means nothing. The Bible has some very clear words to say on the worth of the “social gospel” as opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. None of it is too good.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 4:13 PM
No, guess you don’t know much, or you haven’t really read my posts.
You react with anger, you should learn to read.
Let me explain where you go astray (this will offend you).
When I was talking of women leadership, I was speaking of Church leadership, so when I stated Sunday School teaching, I was talking specifically about church leadership.
You are against women having leadership roles, often they teach (in Church) the Word, that is not biblical based, that has changed over the a past several decades.
There is a difference between Church and home, however, in both instances (Biblicaly) women are told what to do by men…
Now my theoretical question…see how hard it is to follow the Bible?
Women have a role…it is what the man says, so sayeth the Bible.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Exploiting the hunger of the poor through false promises and putting them into situations that are often worse than their current lives has to be one of the ultimate evils in the world today. Shyima’s “employers” and all other Egyptian families who engage in such a practice clearly are clearly selfish and evil. This was not an act of kindness.
But they aren’t trying to help is the whole thing. A rich person interested in helping would provide you or your older children with a job which pays fair wages doing the same chores as your underaged daughter. Or instead, they could use some of their money for good rather than redecorating their apartments in faux Louis XVI gold.
Yes, but I do have good friends who have worked with NGOs concerned with this issue. Many children who are sold into slavery become child prostitutes. I highly doubt that even you would think that they would be better off. Even in Shyima’s situation, I really don’t think that ripping a girl away from her family, basically imprisioning her in a foreign country, working her to near death, and probably not providing her with adequate food or medical care or even a basic education can be considered to be a better situation, no matter how poor the person is.
I have quite a bit of sympathy for victims who unwilling get tricked into slavery. From what I have read about this case, I really don’t have so much sympathy for Shyima’s family. It’s clear that the “employers” were the main criminals and that there was some trickery on their part, but it is also clear from the way the family has reacted to the situation that the family’s honor and the thirty dollars a month were more important to them than the fact that Shyima is now out of danger.
Illinidiva on December 29, 2008 at 4:17 PM
I think this is a simplistic reading of the bible…since Aquilla taught apollos. you take the ‘liberal’ line of attack on christianity. women sunday school teachers and others in the church…like nuns are under the authority of a man… but all you can do is take the verses of the bible out of context and twist them to an attack on christianity. amazing.
if you’re His its not that hard….
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Looks to me like you have a pretty simplistic view of the Bible, and those who follow it. Heck, even Proverbs 31 (OT passage about the “good wife”) is more liberal than the caricature- if you read it closely, it talks about the woman having business smarts and authority (”she considers a field and buys it…”
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 4:20 PM
he sounds like a typical liberal spewing talking points, its obvious he hasn’t thought about these issues in any depth…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Luther stated that “let the scientists be scientists, and the theologians be theologians”.
Luther made his statement to Copernicus 8 years before his thesis was written. At the time it was finally written it was treated as a theory, and not proved.
In the area of biblical studies, Luther formulated a hermeneutic principle that was flexible in its accommodation to scientific theories, Luther was well schooled in science…but like most didn’t take every theory as fact…nor do we, just ask Gore.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:23 PM
Does the verse in Genesis that says: “…and your husband shall rule over you…” ring a bell? Is it what man says? Or is it a curse measured out by God?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 4:24 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 4:12 PM
There’s nothing in the OT saying that its possible to completely own another individual. So yes, that is my contention.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 4:26 PM
PS: Let’s remember that under Roman law, slaves were beaten to death for trivial violations.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Well, you are probably one of the few who think I am a liberal…what you guys need to do is read a little more.
Do you honestly think that the NT treats women in church as equals?
What I am stating is incredibly conservative, I am stating that the bible says no roles for leadership for women…that is as conservative as you get.
Weird how you derive liberal from that…I state the most conservative viewpoint, and you call that liberal.
What I am saying, is that the churches have had to “reread” the bible to make concessions for the women to have leadership roles. So your churches, the ones you go to are now the liberal churches (since you like the word liberal so much).
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:29 PM
right4life,
There is no slave Master preventing you for morally attaining a ferrari, and it is your choice to enter the military knowing its contractual obligations. You are not free to make others slaves, just as others are not free to make you their slave. So you’ll just have to release that sexual tension built up due to your appetite for slave girls and release it by other means. Try having sex with women instead, or masturbating.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 4:31 PM
no it does not. and you’re saying thats wrong because its the way we think now!! uh huh.
and I think you twist the scripture to say that…there are roles for women in the church, but under the authority of a man.
I think you are the one doing the re-reading..
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM
The Leviticus verse does refer to slaves as property that can be bought and willed to one’s children as property. That seems like ownership.
The beating allowed under Exodus 21:20-21 appears pretty serious.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM
you do understand that in biblical times people voluntarily entered into slavery?
and people voluntarily enter it even now.
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Yes. Pretty harsh times.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM
What I am stating is incredibly conservative, I am stating that the bible says no roles for leadership for women…that is as conservative as you get.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:29 PM
You state these things, then talk about why you disagree with them. Just saying the words you characterize as “conservative” doesn’t mean you are one.
You might be, or might not be. I don’t know, and that’s your business. Much of your argument does, however, mirror a more… liberal, for want of a better word… interpretation of Scripture. (e.g., the Bible says no women in leadership roles, slavery is okay, we can’t accept what the Bible says in these situations).
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM
And no, in NT times there was not equality between men and women. Looking at the culture, there was also a lack of equality in Judaism, and in many other cultures around them.
I think Jesus, some other church leaders, maybe even Paul (”there is neither slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile, male nor female” in Christ) was pretty “liberal” in this context.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Well that settles it, you find one OT, and I could give you six NT stating different.
So we get back to…who is the Authority?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM
No, it seems like indentured servitude. Read a bit more, learn about Judaism, and don’t pick out standard talking points.
Let that sink into your brain a few times.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 4:46 PM
No, it gets back to sola scriptura, sciptura sola.
That is what is changing as we ar going through another reformation. The change from “sola” is dramatic since Luther stated is 95 theses.
Each reformation has brought dramatic strength to the Christian church. But each one has had bitter battles.
The “conservative” is sola scriptura, but that is but a few churches now…what has changed? The bible is the bible.
Even the Baptists have switched back and forth…Lutheran’s have the Missouri Synod, Wisc, and the ELCA, most church’s have both congregations of sola or sola-lite.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:49 PM
You have a terrible time understanding.
That is conservative sola scriptura
I never said “we can’t…” I said I won’t accept slavery, and I do accept leadership for women, knowing that it is against scripture, and I am willing to accept that.
Others just change the wording or meaning and claim they are following scripture.
Which one is more honest?
Using your words, I say the liberal hides behind “new understanding”, and changes the words to fit his beliefs.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:54 PM
right4life,
Oh, noOoze, masta! Please readz Leviticus masta sar!
Leviticus 25:42-46
“The people of Israel are the Lord’s slaves, and he brought them out of Egypt; they must not be sold into slavery. Do not treat them harshly, but fear your God. If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you. You may also buy the children of foreigners who are living among you. Such children born in your land may become your property, and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve for as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly.”
Weez sold like sack of ‘tatoes masta! Ouch! Don’t beats me mister Christian sar!
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 4:56 PM
I’ve read the verse before but the sentence that follows the one you quote is troubling: “Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money”.
Not only is some beating allowed, but the master’s “money” is not just the work product of the slave but the slave’s body as well.
How do you resolve the line you quoted with the one that immediately follows it?
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:03 PM
That’s funny…what some are saying is that the bible does not support slavery; and the most obvious facts are that it does. In fact those who say it doesn’t, well they maybe have not read, but been read to.
But the dilemma is if you reject it, then it is saying the bible is not perfect, but only perfect for its time period?
Thus the question…where is the Authority of the Bible?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 5:04 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Take them both into account. If you were in that situation, wouldn’t the very threat of being put to death be enough to stay your hand? I know it would for me.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:06 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Wow, this is proof you definitely don’t get it.
How are you supposed to learn, other than by learning from someone who knows a heck of a lot more than you do about the subject? Otherwise, you’re just talking out of your hole.
IMHO, this whole “the Bible supports slavery” argument only proves some liberals and Bible bashers can be more fundamentalist than the boogeymen they make to inhabit their heads.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:10 PM
Actually, secular society, at least in my mind, has been remarkably consistant. Based on the caliber of people that we have “serving us” in representative government today, I’d say that will a little added incentive, most could fill the sandals of Nero or Caligula quite nicely.
My collie says:
Collie, would you PLEASE stop it with the shameless plugs for Caroline Kennedy’s candidacy?
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 5:10 PM
What Paul wrote was refered to by Peter — who was one of the Twelve Jesus selected — as “scripture,” so the fact that Paul was not one of the Twelve is pretty much irrelevant.
tom on December 29, 2008 at 5:11 PM
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 5:10 PM
Tell your dog that Caroline isn’t running for President, as much as the Dems would probably like her to.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:12 PM
right2bright,
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 5:12 PM
Not at all. People use violent-but-not-lethal force all the time. Floggings have been standard punishment from the beginning of history until present day. In the American antebellum South there were some laws against murdering a slave but there were plenty of beatings.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM
tom on December 29, 2008 at 5:11 PM
Plus which, 30 years after Jesus’ death isn’t a long time at all, when its compared to other biographies and accounts of people’s accomplishments – such as Alexander the Great for example.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Aw, nuts. I’ll reformat that last reply.
right2bright,
Yes, and that is when Christians become moral relativists just like the lefty liberals we all despise.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 5:14 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM
Oh, stop bringing up the South. You sound like a broken record.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:15 PM
Not true. Seldom have I mentioned the South in my HA comments.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:20 PM
FierceGuppy,
I thought I’d just skip back a few posts, to get to what seems to be your mistaken idea that people never sold themselves into slavery – which is right after what you quoted:
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:22 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Then let me rephrase that:
Stop making comparisons between the slavery of the Israelites (which was in part based upon debt) and the slavery of the South (which was in whole based upon race.)
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:25 PM
I’m not making a case for their equivalence. In my first comment I pointed to two areas of similarity but thought that a few thousand years created significant economic and cultural differences between the institutions.
My comparison a few posts above wasn’t between the two institutions as whole but rather a reference to the non-lethal beating of slaves, which wasn’t averted by laws against the murder of slaves.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:31 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM
By the way, speaking of the distinctions between violent and lethal force, you might want to check this out. Here’s another protection for slaves under Mosaic law:
Exodus 21:26-27
Losing a tooth – violent, but not lethal. Right?
You smite your slave, you lose your slave. Either way.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Still a challenge to resolve with the other Exodus verses, though it looks like a legal justification for some-but-not-too-much beating.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Ryan Gandy,
Leviticus 25:47- “Suppose a foreigner living with you becomes rich, while a fellow Israelite becomes poor and sells himself as a slave to that foreigner or to a member of his family….” — from the “Good” News Bible.
Life wasn’t so cruel for the slave if both he and his master are Israelites. No, don’t treat a fellow Israelite harshly. That’s what those bloody foreigners are for.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 5:49 PM
My question still stands…you may be the one picking and choosing what is believed and not.
Where does the authority of the Bible come from?
If it is the Word, then women can’t lead, and slavery is acceptable. As repugnant as that sounds to some, that is the bible.
Throughout, slavery is supported and accepted, condoned, by the bible.
If it comes purely from scripture (sola scriptura) then most have to rethink the church they are going to, because the church in the past few decades have dramatically changed, and adopted a more “liberal” understanding of the bible.
In fact I can’t think of any sola scriptura church now…maybe some of the Mennonite, Pennsylvania Dutch, Quacker, etc.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM
1. Just because you don’t condemn something by name doesn’t mean you condone it.
2. The bible has numerous moral teachings that would lead one to justifiably say that slavery is, according to the bible, wrong. It has no moral teachings that would lead one to say that the bible approves of slavery.
kcewa on December 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Well, he used it in a parable, and thought that was fine, I never said he promoted it, he accepted it and never showed he had a problem with it.
2. Show me Jesus or the disciple that condemned slavery…now go to the OT and show me where slavery was not acceptable. They even had rules on how to take care of your slaves, that is how moral the bible is. The bible accepted slavery as a matter of life, a fact of life.
I think that pretty much sums up how God thought of slavery…and Jesus did not renounce any of it.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM
And yet, I can show you multiple places in the Bible where financial debt is called bondage or slavery in the Bible. And neither being in debt, nor being a slave, was considered “a good thing” (at least, for a Hebrew). I do not believe that scripture supports your position on this matter.
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 6:49 PM
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 5:49 PM
That’s not what the whole law says.
Are you sure you’re letting the Holy Spirit guide you, and not your own anger?
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 6:52 PM
FierceGuppy,
You might want to take a look at this too:
Exodus 22:21
(emphasis mine to illustrate)
Which is, incidentally, the whole point behind Passover.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM
The Bible’s authority comes from God, seeing as it is His Word, of course.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 6:57 PM
…and the US gets the blame again for an African problem.
This is just like slavery. The black man sells his brother to the world as a slave – then calls the world racist for buying his brother.
At least give us our money back before you blame us for slavery! Where’s our reparations?
Mr Purple on December 29, 2008 at 7:13 PM
That is what one usually states…but historically it is not so.
Gregory changed it, the reformation changed it, and now we are going through another reformation.
Slavery is outlawed (where it was a valid product in the bible), women have leadership roles (which was biblicaly denied), churches are even accepting homosexuals as leaders…two out of those three are almost for sure in your church.
That is a huge change from the reformation of sola scriptura.
So now the authority is from the interpretation…not from the actual word which is what the reformation was about, and Gregory centralized it to a common leader (like the hierarchy of the Catholic Church). or the Great Schism (dividing the east from the west, Latin from Greek).
So we have Gregory, the Great Schism, the Reformation, and now perhaps a new one.
All of the “reformations” had to deal with who has the authority, we know God does, but who divines that for us on earth?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Please read the above quote I gave, that is from the bible.
Jacob, Job, Isaac, Solomon, and others, all slave owners and blessed by God, never admonished for being a slave owner. What God wanted was a righteous slave owner. A fair slave owner, but God never said “don’t own slaves”. Jesus even used them in parables, but never stated don’t have one, or ownership is wrong. It was a fact of life.
America had slaves for only 89 years, the rest of world from the beginning of time.
The Methodist church, and the Baptist church split along slavery lines, one having biblical facts stating it was right, the other side knowing the time has come to give up this awful practice…thus the re-addressing of “authority” in the bible.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 7:37 PM
Ryan Gandy,
That whole law places restrictions on how an Israelite slave master is to handle ~Israelite~ slaves only. No considerations are given to foreign slaves. Look, read the law yourself. Just read it. Leviticus 39- One doesn’t need to be guided by a “Holy Spirit” to comprehend what’s there.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Ryan Gandy,
BTW, why would you want the “Holy Spirit” as your guide while reading Leviticus when it is this same so-called “Holy Spirit” that encourages and condones slavery? A holy spirit would have done the very opposite. A holy spirit would have unequivocally condemned the evils of slavery without hesitation. There is nothing holy about the spirit that guides you.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Gah Bible bashers should just stick to the shellfish argument. I can’t claim to be a follower of Christ when I specifically trash His teachings. And I’m an oppressed Baptist woman who is led in part by other Baptist women and teaches my children to love Christ. I consider raising my children up to love God more important than any church ordained leadership role. We are ALL servants of our God – men AND women. We all serve in the way we have been most blessed to serve. My leadership role lies in my family.
Seeing men bash Christianity because it oppresses women pisses me off. I’m more free as a God-fearing Christian woman than I would be were I a pastor forced to put family on the back burner.
Doppleganker on December 29, 2008 at 8:38 PM
mmm… shellfish…
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 9:04 PM
It isn’t the bashing that is being discussed, it is the changing of authority of the Bible.
The reformation (where the Baptists were born) came the sola scriptura, and the Baptists have held pretty close to that, closer then most. (although southern baptists moved from women in leadership, back to no leadership)
But they did split with the slavery issue, they knew it was biblically okay, but others felt the moral issue out weighed the biblical.
And that is the grist of the problem…where or when do you say the bible is not right, or do you ever say that?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 9:23 PM
there is where you really just don’t get it. there is NO changing authority of the bible…the bible is what it is..and it says what it says.
some things, like slavery, the form of government you should have, are grey areas!!! and are open for debate…christians have known about these ’secondary issues’ since the resurrection of Christ! there are other issues, however that are NOT secondary,…the divinity of Christ, etc. deny these, and you’re not a christian..ie you’re a mormon or whatever.
hate to tell you, but there is NO problem. and you never say the bible is not right…because then you are setting yourself up as god…declaring good from evil, right from wrong…and if you do, then you’re probably not a christian.
how hard is this???
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 9:37 PM
and all you whiners who bash christianity about women, slavery etc…take a hike. go to another religion, like islam, or hinduism. or become an atheist, and be your own little god!
Christianity is much better than any alternative out there…learn to love it, because its the best thing going!!! WHOOOOOOO (little ric flair lingo there)
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 9:41 PM
right4life,
The Bible doesn’t condemn slavery, but we atheists like to hear Christians ignore the Bible and condemn slavery as though it did rather than sanction it. We prefer the Christanity of today that condemns slavery, gay bashers, racists, and the ill treatment of women. I also prefer Christianity over other religions for its shunning of asceticism, if not in word then in practice, with its desire for the material comforts provided by capitalism. The more Christians turn away from the (Un)holy Spirit the better for us all.
Now, if only Islam would hurry up and do the same.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 10:54 PM
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Okay. You obviously are letting your anger control you, more so than any rational thought. With that in mind, I don’t know how I can say this . . . but . . .
Jewish. Law. Does. Not. Condone. The. Abuse. Of. Slaves. It never has. It never did. It never will.
Please, check this out. I’ve already posted a brief quote before, but I think you need to read the whole thing and get some idea of what you’re talking about before you make yourself look uneducated:
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/11-04-01.html
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 11:11 PM
gee why am I not surprised that such idiotic drivel comes from an atheist??
oh yeah you atheists that have committed MASS MURDER on an unprecedented scale in the last century…and given us such wonders of ’science’ as eugenics and the gas chambers..
I’m sure your very proud!!
I’ll put christianity up against your hellish little faith and the tens of millions you atheist scum have slaughtered any day..thanks..moron.
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:41 PM
and speaking of racism…that icon of atheism DARWIN and his hellish theory of evolution is racist as hell…and that racism continues to this day…Watson??
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Apparently, you answered your own question…if you say there are “gray areas”, are you saying that God’s word is not clear? That it is not easily understood?
That when Paul says that women should not have church leadership, that it is misunderstood, Luther and hundreds of other great theologians did not understand His words?
So we are back to the essential statement…the bible is clear that it condones slavery, Jacob, Isaac, Job, Solomon all had slaves and were blessed, and never reprimanded for slavery. They were told how to care for them, but never not to have them. And the NT never denounced those Words, and so carried on that tradition…therefore, the bible clearly supports the ownership of slaves, as long as you treat them well.
But the majority of Christians find that abhorrent, so who is correct? The majority now, or the Luther’s of the world? 500 years ago the words were stated that slavery was scripture. The words haven’t changed, so whose authority are you relying on?…if you read the words, you would have to rely on sola scriptura…unless the bible has changed.
That is the advantage of the Mormon’s, they don’t wrestle with those issues, they just say their “living prophet” now believes differently.
But as Christians we have to wrestle with those problems…do we allow women in any leadership role (which is non-biblical), do we allow slavery (which is biblical), and on whose authority to we make those decisions…at the congregation level? The synod? or just personally…
So now I ask you, I am Lutheran, what denomination are you…and let’s see where you stand on these issues.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 11:52 PM
It’s a good thing Luther never took this advice, because the bible he was taught from was different from the one he eventually helped bring to the masses.
In fact it is a good thing all theologians do not believe this, God can handle all of the inquiries, all of the criticism, because He is the truth.
If I state that the bible says that slavery is okay, then it is a simple matter for anyone to say, no that is wrong here is the passages that specifically say slavery is wrong and should be abolished…but you don’t, or you can’t.
It is the lies that cannot handle the inquisition. It is the ones who are weak in their faith who end up calling people names, and not answering the call with facts.
So what could make the bible wrong…well, maybe we (generic men) just made an error in interpretation…or maybe his laws are sensitive to the time period, and some are “passe”.
Maybe women should be in leadership, and slavery abolished…but you only believe in women’s partial leadership, some but not much…how do you determine how much is much?
See, following the bible exactly isn’t so easy is it…
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 12:03 AM
Man, I return from chopping up a bike and this debate is still going.
Ryan Gandy,
I’m not being angry, Ryan. It’s a nice warm Tuesday evening for me where I live and the debate here has been going amazing well with one side pointing out God’s (and jesus’) immorality in the Bible with regards to slavery and the other side doing its very best to make Biblical slavery smell good. It means you’ve lost the debate, which I can’t get angry over that. Also I am quoting from Leviticus which is very clear on God’s position concerning the enslavement of foreigners and their children and I really don’t want guidance from you nor your (Un)holy Spirit to tell me about some Jeeves and Wooster like relationship the Israelites had going on with their slaves back then.
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 12:34 AM
right4life,
See, Ryan? Now ~that~ is an angry man. Dear right4life. Blame the Marxists and nazis pagans. Nothing they represent is any part of my philosophy. Slavery is evil. There has never has been nor ever will be a rational moral principle in support of slavery, neither by your (Un)holy Spirit, nor by Nazi pagans, nor by Marxists. It can’t be done because it is irrational and destructive to its core.
Geez, that sounds even angrier. The core principles of my philosophy are Objectivist/libertarian, so I sure would love for you to detail how “my hellish faith” has led to the slaughter of tens of millions.
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 1:10 AM
Well you should prefer it…the world you live in, the world that you make your money in, your freedom, was built by the faithful. With little help from atheists.
The atheists get to enjoy the fruits of life, provided by the faithful…the schools, the hospitals, the caring of the poor, the abused, the homeless…all of that is taken care of society by the faithful. So the atheists can enjoy a society that is organized and responsible.
I don’t blame the atheists for preferring the Christians of today, the faithful have made it a great place for you…to bad you won’t participate, but glad you appreciate what has been given to you.
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 1:23 AM
right4life,
Have you thought about giving your beliefs about TOE and Charles Darwin an airing on LittleGreenFootballs? There’s a lot of Christians, agnotics and athiests over there that are much more knowledgeable on these matters than me. I tried reading a chapter from the “Decent of Man” online and almost snoozed off.
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 1:25 AM
Liberty, sweet liberty is by far the best antidote to the poison of slavery.
When people are free to self determine an invested middle class develops and an invested middle class hires instead of enslaves.
Slavery depends on tyranny to create very rich and very poor.
Socialism=tyranny.
Speakup on December 30, 2008 at 1:25 AM
right2bright,
I am also thankful for the Enlightenment values imported from England into the U.S. generations after the Mayflower set sail. It made Christians easy to live with.
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 1:35 AM
Which were born from then about 300 years of education of the masses due almost entirely from the reformation.
After the reformation, schools for the public began to be created. The reason for learning to read for the masses, and not just the elite, came from Luther and his proclamation (95 theses) that the common man can read and determine the voice of God. His bible, first in German, then in all the languages (coincidentally the same time as the Gutenberg press), inspired people and began the process of no longer following the trade of the father…but well read “commoners” could rise above their humble family histories.
Those “intellectuals” of enlightenment, would be nothing without Luther and his reformation.
Once again, the “elitists” who held religion in disdain, did so from the knowledge that was given to them by the ones they received it from.
Voltaire, Rousseau, Smith, Hume, Paine, all received education from the Christians they so disdained…once again proving that the beggar has no respect for what is given to him.
Of course they inspired the Great Awakening, which established so much of our giving society…and of course was one of the main reasons slavery was ended after only 89 years in America.
Someday, our great “intellectuals” will actually produce something worthwhile. Something other then words, maybe something that actually helps society, rather then pick it apart.
Maybe a hospital, just one would be nice…but they are too busy whining about those faithful who feed the hungry, take care of least…
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 1:58 AM
right2bright,
Luther was born in the 15th Century. Why did it take 1400+ years to Luther then another 200 years for the Age of Enlightenment to occur? What was it about Christian culture that prevented the Age of Enlightenment from happening a thousand years ealier?
A ~hospital~?! pffftt. How about giving thanks to that often denigrated minority called capitalists that employ masses of people, taking them out of poverty in the process of making money, and in doing so create a huge amount of wealth without which governments would have nothing to plunder, and without which Christians would have nothing to give to the poor except God’s forgiveness?
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 2:23 AM
I explained what Luther did, he brought the bible to the common man and showed them that they can think on their own. That was the beginning of education for the masses, until then education was reserved only for the “elites”. Kind of what is happening now with the liberals in control of the school system.
It wasn’t just the “Christian culture” but the ruling class that did not allow commoners to be educated. Books were not published, the printing press had not been invented, until the time of Luther…so it all came together.
I was being sarcastic about “a” hospital, the faithful has built our total hospital system (a pretty substantial system), while nothing from the seculars’.
What makes you think capitalists aren’t also the faithful. One has nothing to do with the other…however, your age of enlightenment was the model for modern day liberals. That is where was born the idea that government cares for the people, or where capitalists could be tapped to pay for society’s ills.
The modern church never asked for capitalists to pay more taxes, or for the government to take care of the poor…that was the birth from the age of enlightenment that you so embrace.
So the “elites” you so admire, are now the ones that have created the “great society”, that has drained our heritage, while the church is the one supporting individual responsibility.
Looks like you picked the wrong side…unless you are a liberal, then it would be right for you to fear the faithful. They represent what the liberals hate most…independence, self worth, liberty, freedom, non-government intervention…
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 2:42 AM
No. The US gets the ‘the blame’ for a US problem. If African slave-trading is unworthy of the US then you ought to disallow African slave traders and their merchandise from entering the US in the first place.
Open borders have consequences.
aengus on December 30, 2008 at 3:05 AM
The Catholic Church first condemned slavery in 1435 – more than two hundred years before the birth(s) of Voltaire, Rousseau, Paine.
aengus on December 30, 2008 at 3:30 AM
Look. When you use somebody’s race as a pejorative, veiled in a descriptor, you come off like a bigot. Or at least you come off as indifferent to racially charged language, which is a hallmark characteristic of bigots.
Also, nobody is calling you a bigot. But for the record, being a racist is not the worst thing someone could be. Some of my best friends are racist, really.
Follow the bouncing ball:
If I see that you’re acting drunk and call you on it, I’m not calling you an alcoholic. If mean to call you a racist or an alcoholic, I will. You won’t need a magic negro decoder ring.
Furthermore, I think “black” is a perfectly legitimate adjective. But if you can’t see that his usage in this case was used to pile on insults, then you will never see it.
You can pretend to be obtuse, thick or otherwise unable to comprehend this simple reality. But I and you both know the truth. You can quit acting like you’re wounded because I call out someone for using my race as an askance epithet. Or you can continue to blame me for trying to reign in what I believe to be a perpetually-failing PR campaign by the Republican party in minority communities.
There are myriad racially-tinged charades around which Republicans have closed ranks with bananas in their ears that prove the party to be tone-deaf. Democrats aren’t much better; they’re just have better PR. You can’t win any public relations battle with bad PR — which is all we get.
As far as my issues go, that is a long list containing psychological and legal terms that would probably bore and confuse you.
Now, keep it movin sugarsack and kindly step off my d***.
The Race Card on December 30, 2008 at 3:55 AM
right2bright,
Oh, I’m sure many capitalists are Christians of a sort. It is just that the moral principles by which the wealth creation process proceeds is so wonderfully and benevolently both selfish and ungodly. It certainly eschews selfless service and self-sacrifice and replaces them with self-interest and the profit motive. No shunning material wealth here. No master/slave relationship as encouraged in the Bible, just a free exchange of values to mutual benefit. Capitalists have done far far more to raise living standards of people than a million popes and the sacrifice of a million mother Teresas could ever achieve just by acting for their own rational self interest. Free men acting for their own rational self interest has proven to work for the betterment of all mankind, and the U.S. proved capitalism works. So there you go. Forget the Bible. Make rational self interest the basis of morality.
I’m not sure of these “elites” to which you refer and that I supposedly support. Better to name them. Other than a few Objectivists and sundry libertarians that embrace Enlightenment values like reason, independence, pride, self esteem, rational inquiry, free will, and individual liberty, I don’t know anyone else you could justly construe I support.
Oh, well. Good night.
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 5:56 AM
I am a *gasp* Southern Baptist and we have women leading all over the place at my church. Mostly leading other women and children – and I see nothing wrong with that – no one there seems upset about it either. Why do you care about it?
If you would learn to read using historical and contextual clues you might develop a better understanding. My personal favorite is the constant misuse of “judge not lest you be judged”. People completely ignore the original language and context. I don’t think the Bible is wrong. You do. Of course you’re going to take every verse you can google and splat it on the page as proof that you’re right. I’m just never going to agree with you. I hope it makes you happy though – seems pretty typical of atheists to hate something that makes so many people happy.
Doppleganker on December 30, 2008 at 7:54 AM
Having seen these tenements firsthand, sadly the mother is probably correct. Doesn’t condone slavery, though.
Vashta.Nerada on December 30, 2008 at 9:54 AM
NO. Stop perpetuating this lie. Men are not the masters of their wives. Wives are to submit to their husband’s spiritual authority – the husband’s role is leader and protector of his family. And husbands are commanded to love their wives the same way Jesus loved his church – he died for her. Jesus never dominated His disciples and he never advocated such a thing. Wives submit spiritually to husbands while husbands submit to Christ, as Christ submits to the Father. Try reading Ephesians 5:22-28. It’s all laid out. But all people want to see in this piece of scripture nowdays is a misinterpretation of “submit.” Wives are not slaves, and husbands are not slave holders. It’s time this lie was set straight. And yes, my wife does submit to my spiritual leadership. We have a partnership that has lasted 33 years. I do not tell her to jump, nor does she expect me to. I love her enough to lay down my life for her.
As far as women having authority over men and teaching men, this is Paul’s instructions for running a church to Timothy. As far as a I can see, the only roles in church a woman should not have is as pastor and teacher of men. It is the role of the men of the church to lead and teach. But too many men have become lazy and will not step up to their responsibilities so women have to step forward.
I grew up in and am currently a minister in a Southern Baptist church. If not for the wonderful, Godly women, these churches would have collapsed long ago. Women while maybe not pastors, are the pillars of every Baptist church I’ve been in. I cannot speak for other denominations, only my own.
abcurtis on December 30, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Good word, Doppleganker.
abcurtis on December 30, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Thanks, abcurtis. I’m glad you could lay it out there. And I’m super glad that another *gasp* Southern Baptist is hanging out. We don’t condone slavery, we don’t enslave women. We are free. Even were we to be sold into actual slavery we would still be free. Is that what bothers some?
Doppleganker on December 30, 2008 at 10:48 AM
*present*
johnnyU on December 30, 2008 at 11:00 AM
If it’s your “free will” to drive a red ferrari, why cant you? Maybe you have desire and free will mixed up? I exercise my free will by coming to this site, or not.
Btw –
When you join the military you take an oath to uphold the constitution and defend it. You also enter into and sign a contract with the military to serve a set amount of time. If you walk out on that contract before it expires you have broken your oath and failed to uphold your end of the contract. What then do you suppose will happen if you break a legally binding contract?
If you sign a contract, then maybe you have used your free will to make a slave of yourself for the duration of the contract.
If you contract with a bank to purchase a red Ferrari at so much per month for “X” months, then decide unilaterally you want out of that contract and stop making payments what do you suppose will happen? It’s the same with the military.
abcurtis on December 30, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Right4live – listen up!
Atheist scum? Moron? Are you even Christian? What kind of witness is that? Is this how you propose to let others see Jesus in you? No wonder non-believers hate Him. How do you expect to bring others to Him by calling people names like an adolescent? We are told to speak the truth in love and I see nether truth nor love in any of your posts. Only hatred, contempt, and ignorance.
If you want to call yourself a Christian, so be it, but dont be surprised when non-believers want to throw rocks at you.
Maybe you’re young so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowledge and wisdom.
And btw – how about checking out a short course in English grammer. Using “your” for “you’re” doesnt help your witness either.
abcurtis on December 30, 2008 at 11:29 AM
I’m really sick of holier than thou types…go to hell.
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 11:51 AM
And how many women pastor’s do you have in your synod?
How many Southern Baptist women ministers are there?
See they are the pillars, but are not allowed to lead…now that is biblical, I agree, but is that the direction church is moving towards?
You think I am wrong when I say women do what is told, but you just cited in your church that is true…they can participate, and do the chores, but not be a pastor, they are not worthy to carry the Word? (ironically, they carry the Word to Christ’s most precious the children). See the irony, a church says “you can’t lead”, but gives the most precious leadership to women…even they can’t see the hypocrisy.
The autonomy of the SB lends itself to electing women as leaders and pastors, but generally SB refuse to ordain women as pastors or leaders.
Well looks like you are the one who mis-judged, you get in the middle of a discussion and you make false assumptions and accusations.
You call me an atheist? And then you fear me using bible verses (yeah, I know the verses about Satan and using the Word)…so you do think that the bible did not condone slavery? Well, you are smarter then thousands of theologians who think differently, and of course God thought it was okay to own a couple, He just wanted them to be treated fairly, do you recall Him saying to release all the slaves? Did he punish Isaac, Job, and many others for owning slaves?
Gregory, the Great Schism, Reformation, and now another reformation…you like history, every 500 years or so.
Each seeking to define authority, and each time it expands Christianity, making it stronger…now perhaps trying to meld the 4 Abrahamic religions, perhaps.
No, I do not think the Bible is inherently wrong, but because man compiled it, it is more then likely some areas wrong (unless a perfect man compiled it, and I think He died sometime ago).
Your church split along the lines of slavery, so which side was right? The side that said the OT and NT never stated that owning a slave was wrong, or our society that now reads something that never existed in the bible, that slave ownership is wrong…sola scriptura, scriptura sola, Baptists perhaps as close to any, yet they couldn’t decide themselves.
So who has the authority, you as a pastor to tell me that I am not reading it correctly, or me, as a lay person, saying I have studied it and I say, women should be pastors, the bible and specifically Paul was incorrect in his beliefs, and if not incorrect, then wrong statements were included.
Do you think the bible gives authority to women to be pastors?…and who decides, who has the authority to interpret the bible?
That is what each “reformation” was about…although you are the pastor so you know so much more then the rest of us.
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 12:38 PM
FierceGuppy on December 30, 2008 at 12:34 AM
You think I’ve lost the debate? Pssh.
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You have no idea what you’re quoting from, your ignorance is stunning, and quite honestly – YOU are the one that lost the debate, since you have no recourse in the face of information directly from the Bible, and Torah, which deal with this subject in great detail and even order Jews to not mistreat their foreigner slaves, other than to spout your own tired old “Unholy Spirit” insults. You can’t answer anything, you don’t know anything, and you SURE as heck won’t take the time for anything outside your little bubble.
You are like the one who says Jesus supports pedophilia because the Bible shows, as part of a small sentence, that He “. . . took a little child . . .” You are like the one who says the Bible supports atheism because one sentence in one Psalm contains the words “There is no God.” You are like the cross-burning klucker who says some passage in the book of Ezekiel affirms that the penalty for marrying outside your race is death.
You’re so focused on small verses, without knowing a thing about them, that your mind and heart are closed off to a much greater truth. That is why I said people like you are much more fundamentalist than a Bible-believing Southern Baptist.
You are uneducated. In the most literal sense of the word. And I’m done with you. I hope and I pray that your heart will be opened at one point down the road, but its – and this is a definite since we’re talking to each other across a sea of digital information – not going to be in any further dealings with me.
Spout whatever you like from this point on, in this thread or any other, I am ignoring it.
abcurtis on December 30, 2008 at 11:29 AM
He’s not young. He’s said as much in other posts on HA.
And you’re not the only one that’s thought these kinds of things about him.
I just prefer to ignore it now. There’s not much I can do about it over the Internet, and not knowing him from a hole in the wall.
Ryan Gandy on December 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Gee, looks like the women can’t lead or teach, but they can what? Clean and do the windows? Care for the elderly, be a secretary?
Looks like you started off saying I was wrong, then showing us I was correct.
Women can do anything in a church, but lead and teach…luckily then can iron and cook…
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 12:43 PM
The Race Card on December 30, 2008 at 3:55 AM
Yeah, suuuuure buddy.. Whatever you say.
*rolls eyes*
Grow some thicker skin while you’re at it.
Ryan Gandy on December 30, 2008 at 12:45 PM
You guys are missing the big picture…of course you don’t condone slavery, but biblically God does. So if you don’t accept what God accepts, are you out of step?
I say know, that God wants us to make those decisions…but that means we determine what verses are important, and which is not…so the continuing question, from Gregory, the Great Schism, the Reformation, who has the authority? If it is only God, then we have lost the free will, and we have to accept slavery as an acceptable system…or do we assume some things are “historical”, and we move away from them as history evolves…but then who makes that decision.
In your church, it was split almost down the middle concerning slavery…who was correct?
right2bright on December 30, 2008 at 12:50 PM
yes I know, I wish you all weren’t so concerned about me….and what would do in person? just curious…
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM
I would offer the same advise to you and the others who are *So* offended by what I say….sheesh…
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 1:39 PM
so its OK for you to say such things…but a MORTAL SIN when *I* do :rolleyes:
and I didn’t notice the most holy right reverend abcurtis coming here denouncing you with fire and brimstone!!
laughable. (oooops another *sinful* word) oh I repent in sackcloth and ashes!!!
you may want to take the beam out of your own eyes…get the picture???
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 1:45 PM
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Dude, don’t. Just don’t.
You have no room to talk.
Ryan Gandy on December 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM
oh I know..I haven’t attained your level of holiness!!
please. you just called him a moron…a rose by any other name…and its OK for you to, but not for me…the hypocrisy is laughable…
but hey I don’t care what you say. I have a thick skin, you can call me names..don’t bother me none…so much for my english skoolin…
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 2:00 PM
still no righteous pronouncements from sinai from the most-holy, sitting on his high-horse, right reverened ABCURTIS!!!
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 2:02 PM
R4L has usually been very polite in responding to my comments. There is a lot of snarky language in the comments section. R4L and I often have different points of view but I’m regularly interested how well-informed his responses to my questions have been.
dedalus on December 30, 2008 at 2:30 PM
thank you! that is very gracious of you!
right4life on December 30, 2008 at 2:37 PM
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