Slavery spreads from Africa to the US
posted at 9:40 am on December 29, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Share on Facebook | regular view
The AP’s Rukmini Callimachi gives a heartbreaking report on a phenomenon that has spread to the US and Europe but has not garnered much attention. Wealthy immigrants from African countries have child labor imported to the US, where they work as slaves to the families who host them. Their sponsoring families, and even their biological families, say they should be grateful to have a higher standard of living than what they would have otherwise had in poverty, but the abuse and damage done is obvious:
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal but common practice in Africa. Families in remote villages send their daughters to work in cities for extra money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life. Some girls work for free on the understanding that they will at least be better fed in the home of their employer.
The custom has led to the spread of trafficking, as well-to-do Africans accustomed to employing children immigrate to the U.S. Around one-third of the estimated 10,000 forced laborers in the United States are servants trapped behind the curtains of suburban homes, according to a study by the National Human Rights Center at the University of California at Berkeley and Free the Slaves, a nonprofit group. No one can say how many are children, especially since their work can so easily be masked as chores.
Once behind the walls of gated communities like this one, these children never go to school. Unbeknownst to their neighbors, they live as modern-day slaves, just like Shyima, whose story is pieced together through court records, police transcripts and interviews.
Shyima is one of the fortunate ones freed from slavery. She now refuses to speak in Arabic and has cut off all ties with her family in Egypt for selling her into bondage to pay off medical bills incurred by the family. Her parents and siblings see it differently. Despite being confined to a garage with no light, heat, or air conditioning, her mother claimed that it still beats living in their Egyptian tenement. Shyima’s sisters insist that she got opportunities they will never know by working as a child slave to the doctor and his wife, who both spent more than two years in American prisons for their crime and got deported after their release.
While working for the Ibrahims, Shyima never went to school. She worked from sunrise to well into the night. Neighbors recall seeing her washing dishes until midnight on occasion, although it never crossed their minds that she was doing anything other than normal chores. She did all the laundry but could not wash her own clothes or bedding in the machines; Shyima had to wash her own laundry in a bucket outside the garage and hang-dry the clothes. Until an anonymous caller tipped Child Protective Services to her plight, Shyima never thought of escape — and in fact was so afraid of what would happen to her that she lied to investigators for months while they pieced together what had happened to her.
Now Shyima is free, but no one really knows how many more like Shyima are in the US or Europe, locked behind the doors of homes, unable to call for help and unknowing that they should.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2 3 4 Next »
Last time this was a headline, it didn’t turn out too well for the average US taxpayer that was born a few hundred years later, or the white folks that fought for their freedom and died in the tens of thousands.
Hening on December 29, 2008 at 1:09 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Do you have a citation where Jesus condoned slavery? Offhand, I don’t think he really addressed it.
If memory serves me correctly, “slavery” imagery was primarily in the Pauline epistles, and usually about being a servant of Christ. We do have the epistle to Philemon, which could be interpreted both ways (condoning/urging the slaveowner to free his “brother in Christ.”)
Am I overlooking a quote by Jesus on the topic?
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Along with the slavary topic, the scourge of sexual slavery in many parts of the world is underreported.
Human trafficking in all it’s forms is morally repugnant.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Yes, you are.
He condoned slavery.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Actually, there are certain ideas in natural law that make things like slavery wrong in every culture. It’s just as wrong for people to make children virtual slaves in Egypt as it is to make them virtual slaves in America. And it should be condemned as such rather than brushed aside and justified as part of that culture.
Illinidiva on December 29, 2008 at 1:19 PM
One cannot justify slavery as a result of social and economic problems. Does social and economic disparity mean that child prostitution and pornography as well as slavery and forced concubinage are to be tolerated and condoned by any society? If the argument is the lesser of two evils then slavery in America should never have ended since the alternative would be war and disease in Africa. Who cares what horrors awaited them on the crossing or when they arrived. The descendants of American slaves have a better standard of living than any black African nation. The lesser of two evils ignores the basic human spirit of free will. Also the Quakers (Christians) were the chief drivers among the anti slavery movement in the US.
Kuffar on December 29, 2008 at 1:21 PM
The point is this: Folks who live in poverty or repression around the world exhibit a universal trait, which is that the US is the worst place on the planet when they need it to be, and (most often at the same time) the US is the best place…EVAH!…when they need it be.
BobMbx on December 29, 2008 at 1:21 PM
If you want to put it into a business context, yes…if someone wanted to say it gets them out of certain poverty and death, that would be correct…and if someone says it is just slavery then that is correct…it is perspective.
Justification, excuse, or desperation…
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Citation?
I’ll gladly acknowledge a faulty memory if necessary, but I don’t plan to spend the afternoon perusing the Gospels, or just take your word for it.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 1:24 PM
I completely agree. And here, in the US, the perspective on slavery is that it is bad. Anyone who wants to own another person, irregardless of the justification or cultural custom, is despicable.
If a person wants to sell their family members into slavery, do it somewhere else.
BobMbx on December 29, 2008 at 1:28 PM
No, I am simply demanding that everyone follow certain basic tenets. These are part of natural law and are part of the morality under any religion.. Honor killings = wrong; slavery = wrong; denying women and minorities basic rights = wrong; genocide = wrong… Need I go on?
First, I highly doubt that lives in slavery are any better than their lives at home. I’m sure many of the children end up starving to death in slavery as out of it. Moreover, I thinka that more often than not these situations occur because of selfishness on the part of the parents. The parents care more for their lives than their own lives. The family here cared more for the patriarch’s lives than they did for their daughter’s. However, that being said… I do think that it is the “elites” in this case that should be more condemned than the family.
First, countries should be forced to respect certain conventions in order to participate in the world community. And that involves simple rules that I outlined above. The western nations boycotted South Africa during the 1980s because of apartheid; I don’t see why the same cannot be done to nations that fail to crack down on slavery, honor killings, etc. today.
Secondly, I’m tired of people demanding that the U.S. and other Western countries solve everyone else’s ills. A country like Egypt should have more than enough money to complete basic economic development projects in rural areas and provide its citizens with basic healthcare and education. The only issue is that the money is being ciphoned off due to corruption and incompetence.
Illinidiva on December 29, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Matthew 18:25
Mark 14:66
Luke 12:45-48
Ephesians 6:5-9
Colossians 4:1
1 Timothy 6:1-3
…and more, Jesus never condemned slavery, nor did He promote it, He just accepted it as a fact of life (He condoned it).
The Sermon on the Mount would have been a good place for Jesus to take a stand against slavery…but nothing was stated.
No one in the New Testament condemned slavery…it was an accepted practice.
Therefore, Christians have to deny that legacy of Christ and his followers, if they hold slavery in disdain.
Just like they allow women to lead churches…the bible ain’t so perfect?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Ah hell, are we going to be held responsible for THIS slavery too.
Why doesn’t the “new” black panther party go after their “fellow” Africans that are enslaving these children?
Hypocracy anyone?
HornetSting on December 29, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Illinidiva – Bravo, Well said…
Kuffar on December 29, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Defenders of slavery… in 2008! Islam can do anything!
Mark 14:66 condones slavery? It doesn’t even mention it. The first one only uses it as a historical example. So you’re claiming discussing = condoning.
Beagle on December 29, 2008 at 1:47 PM
The slavers are either Democrats or donors to Democratic causes. After all, it is that party’s policy that the rights of the individual are subordinate.
They had that policy during the Civil War, and they have it now.
$76,000 in compensation to Shyima for two years of child abuse and slavery is too little. Everything these people own in the US should have been confiscated and given to her.
And we know of at least one more child like Shyima — the child the AP reporter saw, who apparently is Shyima’s replacement.
unclesmrgol on December 29, 2008 at 1:48 PM
is a parable about forgiveness…what point are you trying to make with regards to slavery???
66While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by.
and, so??
this is a parable about the return of the Lord….and you’re using this about slavery how??
talks about treating your slaves as you want to be treated…
yeah it is perfect. sorry to disapoint you.
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 1:54 PM
I was posting to those who have a historical perspective of the bible. Priests owned slaves, and the quote was Peter observing a slave (”maid” is not our modern maid) and not condemning it, but showing it was accepted. I was showing that is was an accepted practice, it was condoned.
Read all the examples…now show me where it was condemned in the bible?
The fact is, it was part of life, and accepted. We have to as Christians, acknowledge that and state now whether we believe the bible is wrong in our society.
As I stated, the same for women in leadership roles…
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:01 PM
amazing. if it wasn’t for CHRISTIANS like wilberforce slavery would be worldwide. yet you criticize the bible for not condeming slavery more forcefully. but of course the bible does say:
Colossians 4
1Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
one of your own verses…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 2:05 PM
So you think slavery is acceptable?
You think women have no position of leadership in the Church?
If you think differently, then the Bible and you don’t mesh.
It doesn’t disappoint me, I feel that there is discernment.
Just because Jesus accepted slavery 2,000 years ago, does not mean I have to accept it today. He gave me that free will, to make logical decisions. In His day, it was right…now it is not.
So the bible was right then, but not now?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM
Condone-
: to regard or treat (something bad) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless
Thanks for the citations. I clearly disagree with you that Jesus condoned slavery, but acknowledge that he clearly didn’t condemn it.
I don’t think he “condoned” crucifixion, but he accepted it as part of his life and destiny.
Let’s get really off track of this slavery thread, and start analyzing Jesus’ remarkably liberal attitude toward women in his culture (Mary washing his feet with her tears? Refusing to condemn the woman at the well, or the woman caught in adultery?) Heh.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM
To show that slavery was accepted, common place, condoned and not condemned…wasn’t that the challenge?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Thanks, the fact that there is an argument against it is kinda disturbing. Trying to justify what happened to Shyima is like the liberals trying to justify suicide bombing.
As for the two posters discussing the New Testament, here’s a simple way to boil it down.. Jesus’ message was about the dignity and equality of every person and was therefore anti-slavery. Unfortunately, Jesus’ followers didn’t completely get the message (just like it took them quite a while to get the Jesus = Son of God idea) and continued practices that Jesus would consider abhorrent.
Illinidiva on December 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM
I could not disagree with you more. I read the verses that you have cited. I do not see Jesus condoning slavery in any way. I think that you do a disservice to our Lord by misrepresenting His ministry. Jesus was ALL ABOUT freeing the slaves – but the slavery that he chose to address was mankind’s slavery to sin. Sinners are in bondage to their master, viz. Satan and his co-conspirators. The entire reason that God came in the form of the incarnation was to free humans from this spiritual slavery.
My collie says:
Just because Jesus used the master-slave relationship to illustrate basic principles in the parables that He told, It doesn’t mean that he approved of slavery, or even condoned it. It just means that he used metaphors or allegories that contained social settings that were familiar to the people that he was talking to.
It is the desire of God’s heart that ALL men and women turn away from sin so that they can receive all of the blessings and fulfillment that God has for them in this life. It is a foregone conclusion that if ALL men and women DID this (both masters and slaves), slavery would exist nowhere on planet earth — for the Holy Spirit would soon convict people of their sin and the proponents of slavery would have no choice except to free their slaves. This is part of what Jesus meant when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into “all thruth” — implying that He had not yet given us all of truth that God has for us.
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:13 PM
This is what you get for letting savages straight out of the 13th century immigrate to otherwise civilized countries.
madne0 on December 29, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Funny, he condemned a lot of things, but never slavery…thus he condoned it, accepted it.
I only used the women analogy, as exactly that, an analogy. Yes, Jesus accepted women, to wash his feet and do his maid work. And they were is most loyal, but as leaders or having “responsiblity”, well we will let the Bible speak for itself:
But he and his followers were quite adamant (unless you consider his disciples not to speak for Him) that women do not have leadership roles.
Thus, both of these things, slavery, and women leadership, have been the two cornerstones of a new understanding of authority in the church since the reformation.
Theologians have had to wrestle with these two items for hundreds of years.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Where can I buy one? How much do they cost?
Xolom on December 29, 2008 at 2:21 PM
FTFY. No need to thank me. Just bein’ neighborly.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Great, I showed examples where it was abundant around Him, he used it in parables (so it was an accepted practice), yet he never condemned it. None of his disciples ever condemned it.
Why would anyone use something so “distasteful” as slavery as an example, and never state it was wrong…but used it as an example to explain something right?
Jesus was ALL ABOUT freeing the slaves – but the slavery
I have no problem with that, he didn’t care that others were in physical slavery, he accepted it, he condoned it.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:25 PM
We have a winner!
Impoverished slum dwellers pumping out 11 kids … yeah, the poor will always be with us.
funky chicken on December 29, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Once again, you misrepresent the facts of early Christianity. It was only this past year that the Israelis made archeological finds near the site of one of their prisons of a 1st century Christian church. There, in the floor mosaic tiles of the church, were the names of the church founders. Some of the names were DECIDELY female. If women were SO oppressed by the Christian faith, THAT simply would NOT have happened, now would it? The women were CLEARLY being recognized and being given a place of honor.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:20 PM
you do realize that Paul wrote most of the passages you reference, right? and that Jesus was dead long before those things were written?
it’s one reason I don’t like most Xtian churches. they base most/much of their theology on stuff written by a guy who wasn’t even one of the original 12
funky chicken on December 29, 2008 at 2:29 PM
CyberCipher,
Yes, Jesus does use the master/slave relationship to illustrate basic priniples. His unforgivable sin is not condemning the master/slave relationship itself as sinful and evil which makes Jesus sinful and evil.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 2:31 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Couple of chapters earlier (I Cor. 11) Paul is giving instructions as to how women need to have long hair, and or hats/head coverings of some fashion, when they prophesy in church. I think maybe you need to dig a little deeper to fully understand the examples you’re using. While you’re at it, meditate on the fact that the married coupe Aquila and Priscilla worked alongside Paul, and both of them taught Appollos (Acts 18:26).
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM
My collie says:
Be my guest. Just make sure that you don’t bury them in the back yard this time.
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Well then the Bible was right then, but wrong now?
Are you saying that Jesus did not understand slavery, that he did not have an opportunity to deny it?
Even though Paul wrote in Col 3:22?
And of course you are the great theologian who knows that Paul really was just a “groupie”?
This is one of the truly most foolish statements so often made…of course when someone writes about someones impact, often that person is dead, especially one killed at an early age…did you expect someone to do all that writing in the few years Jesus was alive?
Since Paul was sent out on a mission, did you expect Jesus to be still alive, doing God’s work?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:37 PM
As to slavery, I think we’re wrestling around the “condoning” thing. I see you’re statement that Jesus “condoned” slavery to mean He either approved, or didn’t really mind that it happened. I think he accepted it as a reality in His life and culture, He didn’t like it, but He came to deal with sin and eternal realities rather than changing every despicable cultural practice He saw.
FWIW.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 2:38 PM
I saw an ad on eBay a couple of years ago. Some Chinese guy (in Shanghai — if I remember correctly) was selling two Vietnamese slave girls. Needless to say, that guy lost his eBay privileges in short order. I don’t think the authorities ever caught him though. (Not that the Chinese were seriously looking for him.)
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Rather then trying to convince you…why do churches still hold back women from positions of authority?
Lutheran’s, Baptists, Catholic’s, and many others. They all use biblical based theology, it has just been in the past several decades that women have been allowed to instruct.
Do you think that was because:
A…Nobody thought of it
B…They thought they were biblical, but have now re-defined “biblical”.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Jesus was very specific, you judge actions, not what you think is in the heart.
His actions speak, or His lack of actions…whether He embraced it or not, I would never know, but he accepted it without any reservations.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:44 PM
The Race Card on December 29, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Nothing was there. There was no racial offense. If you think a truth as plain as that is going to harm me, then you’re smoking something, buddy. Go hustle your PC whining somewhere else.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 2:46 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:42 PM
No need to try to convince me- and I appreciate the civilized dialogue.
My opinion, on the “women in leadership” issue, is that it was a cultural issue in Jesus’ time, and for many subsequent generations. There are and have been patriarchal societies. Some of this bleeds into the church, and its governance.
There are some verses that can be used to support it, as you’ve noted. My assumption as a Christian is that the Bible is true, and consistent, and if you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture you can find the truth. E.G., the verse about women being “silent” appears to contradict the verse about woment “prophesying,” then I look at the context of I Cor. 14 and see the topic is order vs. confusion, and read “let them ask their husbands at home.” I interpret that to be an instruction about orderly worship services without women (seated on one side of the building) loudly asking questions of their husbands (seated on the other side).
I’ll acknowledge it’s somewhat of an assumption on my part, and I don’t expect you to agree with me on all of this.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Injustices have ALWAYS existed in the Christian church, just like they have ALWAYS existed in society at large. For all practical purposes, nationwide sufferage was granted to women in the 1920’s (and as early as the 1880’s in Wyoming). This is long before blacks got the same treatment with voting rights act of 1965. Christians were smack dab in the middle of BOTH of those struggles.
My collie says:
I will give you the answer to collie’s challenge shortly — but first, I want to see how you answer the question.
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM
As to slavery, I don’t know that Jesus “embraced” it. I haven’t read about any slaves in the Carpenter’s shop….
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson on the other hand-
but I still admire them for other reasons.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 2:56 PM
He did the same with crucifiction….so?
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 2:56 PM
As a female Baptist with Lutheran family members (all of us *gasp* southerners) I can tell you that we don’t hold back women from leadership positions. Many gifted women have been called to serve. But it’s easier to just tell us we’re sexist slave traders I guess.
Doppleganker on December 29, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Is this the same Paul who turned in an escaped slave? To be returned to the “owner”, even though the law prohibited someone from doing that?
Paul’s lack of admiration for women is well documented.
That has been the challenge of the “New Church” is to re-instruct everyone on what had been historical fact. Women shouldn’t have a position in church, but now they can.
I have no problem with that, had a women pastor for years, but even she recognized the dilemma.
It is one of those life choices God allows us to make…is it right for us? And if we decide not to follow the historical bible, we should have a pretty good reason why.
I prefer not to twist God’s word, take it as it is written, and state “For me, even though the Bible says it is Okay, I won’t accept slavery”…and I will own up to that stand when the time comes to the appropriate Person.
…and it is okay with me if someone isn’t brave enough, and tries to pretend that the Bible hated slavery…they have to live with that.
Just be aware of the difference.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:57 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Did you recently graduate from the John Kerry School of Biblical Interpretation?
You’re taking the issue of slavery, especially as it existed in Jesus’ time, WAY out of context. It wasn’t anything like what the modern sense of the word implies. There were VERY specific laws to govern the treatment of slaves for the Israelites – among many other things, all slaves were freed every 7 years.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I think you have to look at the institution of slavery and how it was in biblical times compared to modern times….slavery in biblical times was not based upon race, and it was not lifelong…contrast that to the egyptian treatment of their israeli slaves…it was a lifelong slavery and it was based upon race…..and the Lord’s reaction to that….
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM
ever hear of the exodus?? you’re comparing apples and oranges to try to comdemn the bible…my how liberal of you…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:03 PM
don’t make the collie hold its breath!!! that would be cruel….
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:04 PM
If I’m not mistaken, some of the participants in this thread spent time at Fuller theological seminary (not me).
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I answered it above…Every 500 years there is a reformation, it has been 500 years and we are now in the middle of a reformation…or “A Great Emergence” as one author states.
You now are seeing, first hand, what the reformation went through 500 years ago, a re-defining of authority.
In the reformation it was from the Pope, to the bible…now we are trying to consolidate the 4 Abrahamic religions.
And the Bible is coming into question as the ultimate authority. Bible accepted slavery, we don’t, the bible did not accept women leadership, we do (or are beginning to), accepting of gay, just emerging.
Anytime someone brings up the shifting of authority, they are lambasted, but this is the 4 (?) re-formation, and each one created a stronger Christian church.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:05 PM
In the Torah they didn’t have to be freed if they were from a foreign land. Foreign slaves were like property and could be beaten. There likely were differences between the Israelites concept of slavery and the American practice, but ownership and beatings seem like two important similarities.
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 3:06 PM
yeah the bible predicts that….when the beast installs his one world religion…are you trying to make it easy for him or something??
yeah Revelation predicts what you’ll ‘create’ and it sure won’t be christian…wow. look like a lamb, speak like a Dragon….nice…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM
It seems you cannot grasp the elementary concepts of degrees of evil. At its most basic level one of the most persuasive arguments in favour of slavery is called hunger.
Lets try an imagination exercise:
You are sitting on a dirty makeshift stool. Your clothes are filthy and ragged. The last time you washed was when your midwife dipped you in a bucket of fresh rainwater (or something wet anyway) to rinse your mother’s blood from you. You have no job and no accumulated wealth. Obesity is something you have trouble even imagining. Your house is a collection of boxes piled at one side of a rubbish dump, which also happens to be the place you compete with the dogs, rats, flies and cockroaches for food. The toilet for humans is a hole just to the side of the rubbish dump. Every other living creature empties its bowels wherever it is when the urge arrives. The only time you have any chance of having clean water is when it rains hard enough for the boxes you live in to disintegrate. With you is the nine-year old daughter you adore.
One day somebody offers to provide your child with a job in their house, far away. That person lives in a proper house, eats food that hasn’t been salviated over by cockroaches and has clothes that fit.
Rich people don’t come to the rubbish dump that often. This is possibly the only chance you will ever get to lift your child into a better life. Pass this opportunity by and your remaining hope will be that your daughter gets pregnant by one of the more successful scavengers.
Now, using your skill and judgement, decide what the most loving thing to do is. You probably have no more than two minutes, because rich people find you and your dwelling somewhat offensive and tend not to hang around very long.
Keep in mind that two minutes isn’t long enough to debate the “big picture”, engage in a little diatribe concerning the national economic prospects or pontificate about principles, even assuming you had garnered sufficient education from discarded periodicals to know what any of those things were.
Furthermore, if you think two minutes is long enough to consider something a bit complex, you might like to consider that the rich person is genuinely doing you a favour and trying to help you. Just as Westerners casually and disinterestedly throw a few coins into a beggars bowl this rich person is throwing your daughter a life line. The rich person genuinely wants to help but they are not going to redefine their life around your needs.
Don’t waste your time contemplating governments, NGOs, internation rules or any other such nonsense. In the first place your rubbish dump educational experience has not informed you of the existence of such things and in the second place, if any of them had any significance for your life you wouldn’t be living in a rubbish dump.
They have made their offer. Take it? Leave it? What should a loving parent do? Those seconds are ticking away.
As you like, but in that case I highly doubt you have ever experienced poverty. It comes in several variations, not just the one I described above. You can find it easily in many countries should you ever decide to look for it.
That statement is inane; you apparently have not the faintest, flimsiest grasp whatsoever of what poverty entails, its causes or effects. Before you pontificate further on the moral choices of those who seek to escape poverty, I advise you to go and immerse yourself in poverty for a month or two or however long it takes for you to experience total despair, hopelessness and dysentry.
YiZhangZhe on December 29, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Rather then over reacting, and saying I am “condemning the Bible”, try to understand. Some of the greatest theologians have stated the same.
BTW, Luther would have been considered “Liberal” by you.
These aren’t new theories I am presenting, these are hundreds of years old beliefs by some great honorable theologians.
Hooker, Calvin, Luther,Wesley, Kuyper, Glaser, Geisler, etc.
As you read from the 16th forward, you can see the shifting authority of the Word.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:13 PM
…and it is okay with me if someone isn’t brave enough, and tries to pretend that the Bible hated slavery…they have to live with that.
Just be aware of the difference.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Is this the same Paul who turned in an escaped slave? To be returned to the “owner”, even though the law prohibited someone from doing that?
Paul’s lack of admiration for women is well documented
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Oops, reversed the quotes. Sorry.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 3:16 PM
I post, but you don’t read…where did I say all the religions into one, I said the 4 Abrahamic religions are trying to meld, for the first time.
So you are back to the belief that the Bible is the ultimate authority…therefore, slavery is acceptable, women cannot have any leadership. Men are the head of the household, and treat your slaves fairly.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:17 PM
you’re making simplistic arguments that the bible doesn’t comdemn slavery, so the bible is outdated…yadayada…heard em before. you ignore the cultural context of slavery, and try to compare what we know as slavery, based upon race, to the slavery in Jesus’ time, which was far different….our slavery was more in the egytian model…which the Lord apparently disapproved of, since He went to a great deal of trouble to end that slavery..
as far as the reformation..they did not make some ‘great leap forward’ in some left-wing maoist sense, they made a ‘great leap backwards’ to the authority of the scripture…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:18 PM
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 3:06 PM
That proves you have no idea what you’re talking about:
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/11-04-01.html
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:19 PM
yes the bible is the ultimate authority. you can accept it or not. you can call yourself christian by not accepting it’s authority, but you can’t really be one…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:20 PM
There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It was regulated, not prohibited. If you cannot see that very basic and obvious point, then you will not understand any other.
I don’t like it either, but what is written is written.
Paul didn’t so much dislike women, as not wanting to grant them any authority in the Church.
Please, for past 400 years that has been the fact of the churches, just recently have they decided to “re-investigate” what Paul may have meant.
And no, you won’t acknowledge if you were wrong…you will just say it was “interpretation”.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Hold on there. The Bible says NOTHING about leadership in the government or any other secular sense.
Y’might wanna get that straight.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
Is it just me, or does this guy seem to have some anger issues?
Just curious, can we ever use the word “black” to describe someone who is, well, “black” without being accused of being racist?
CarolynM on December 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
Well then, you accept slavery as part of life, and you have no problem with ownership.
You will never be in a church with women as leaders, not ever Sunday school teachers.
If you are, you are not a Christian by your standards…pretty tough standards.
But at least you are honest and forthright.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:27 PM
do you consider signing up for the military to be slavery? you cannot exit, they’ll throw you in jail.
how about illegal aliens? isn’t their work a form of slavery? they get paid a pittance to do the dirty work…and the ‘bwana’ doesn’t even have to see to their care….
this issue has some nuance that liberals like to brag about posessing in every other debate except the bible…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:28 PM
CarolynM on December 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
The way some people treat this issue, it seems to me like they think Rev. Wright will swing by our homes and eat our firstborn children if we do.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:29 PM
dedalus,
For example, Leviticus 25:42-46
“The people of Israel are the Lord’s slaves, and he brought them out of Egypt; they must not be sold into slavery. Do not treat them harshly, but fear your God. If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you. You may also buy the children of foreigners who are living among you. Such children born in your land may become your property, and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve for as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly.”
The Old Testament god encourages slavery so the New Testament god is not going to look upon slavery as sinful, hence Jesus’ non condemnation.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 3:30 PM
duh yes slavery is part of life…its worldwide even now..as we speak, people are enslaved. and yes I am enslaved…Doulos Christos…a bondslave to the Lord…so?
and no I would not go to a church with a woman as a senior pastor…other roles are fine.
here’s a question for you, taking off on YiZhangZhe’s example…say you were in zimbabwe…you’re starving to death…and watching your children die right before you of starvation and cholera…you had a chance to sell them…they would live the life of a slave, but they’d live….would you sell them???
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:32 PM
What you perceive to be never ending Muslim bashing is in fact commentary on the seemingly never ending atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Honor killings, slavery, genital mutiliation, child bribes, polygamy, Muslims vs Muslim, Muslim vs Christian, Muslim vs Hindu – Muslims have a hand in virtually every conflict worldwide. It’s not “bashing” to cite facts.
CarolynM on December 29, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Nope. Ecclesiastically speaking, yes (as per Paul’s quote that you cited) but by no means all “leadership”, considering the judge Deborah, for instance. I’m sure you’re talking about the context of church, but just making sure.
An t-Oibriche Criosdail on December 29, 2008 at 3:35 PM
So if you are born poor in a poor country you are better off as a slave to rich people in a rich country than free in your own?
That ties in nicely with having your leader assaulted being deemed a sign of freedom and victory.
How many days left in this year?
BL@KBIRD on December 29, 2008 at 3:38 PM
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Any of those “regulations” about slavery in the NT? From the mouth of Jesus?
You are of course right that many churches, for hundreds of years, did not have women in leadership.
And yes, I will acknowledge I’m wrong when I am. Show me the Roman statute making it illegal for Paul to send Onesimus back to Philemon, and I’ll gladly state I was wrong. If there isn’t a Roman statute you can point to, then you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say it was “illegal” for Paul to do so.
Ahem… you know, those Reformers you pointed to “re-investigated” a few things themselves, and apparently felt they were gaining a clearer understanding of the Bible’s true meaning than was lived out in their contemporary churches.
cs89 on December 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
You cast all of your arguments in the Reformation’s “sola scripture” and the subsequent “shifting of authority” of the Word.
Jesus is the TRUE Word of God. He is the alpha and omega. He does not change. Nor do you make any mention of the role of the Holy Spirit in the struggle between good and evil. Your theology wouldn’t be a bit “tainted” by your educational background, now would it? That’s what too much philosophy will do to you, ya’ know. Pretty soon, you are unable to operate an elevator by yourself.
Luthor never wanted to be anything but a Catholic monk. He was simply trying to correct the abuses that he saw within the Catholic church. Abuses that ALWAYS occur in ALL large organizations created by humans, whether they be religious, corporate, or governmental. From my persepctive, Luthor was a conservative. He was trying to restore the original first century Christianity that had been eroded through the centuries by monks that had too much time on their hands.
Furthermore, Calvin (IMHO) succumbed to Nietzsche’s warning against staring into the abyss. He became the monster that he struggled against so mightily.
I could go on, but the point is that each of these people had their flaws. None of them were perfect. God used them anyway to further His own agenda — as He has always done throughout history. God even refers to King Nebakanezer of Babylon as “my servant”.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I’d kill them. It is much more humane and moral to kill them quickly than allow them to become slaves or allow them to die through famine and cholera.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 3:40 PM
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
That’s “Nebuchadnezzar,” and WHOA that’s one smart collie you got there.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:42 PM
you’d kill your kids??? wow. thats pretty scary…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:44 PM
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:28 PM
Yeah ’cause we all have to know they’re SOOOO much more spiritually, morally and genetically evolved than we lowly plebeians.
Speaking of which, I wonder where Bizarro is to talk about his great knowledge of God.
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:45 PM
grdred944 3:17
You must hate me for being one of those incessant Muslim bashers. Why don’t you speak up and defend your Muslim friends and straighten us out on all the mean bashing that is taking place. Tell us how awesome Islam is and how it is so misunderstood by the bad bashers. Or do you think like The Rape Card that the Muslim bashers will make you look bad to the Reagan Dems and you will lose some of their votes when the Bush Twins run in 2024?
BL@KBIRD on December 29, 2008 at 3:45 PM
tell the dog we’re devolving…becoming more barbaric…
I think lost in this is that the Lord gives people a certain amount of free will to order their lives, governments, economies, etc.
you don’t find the Bible saying democracy is the best for people…actually the bible is into a Kingdom…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Suddenly I have a vision …
of petrol being poured onto an raging blaze.
I guess the thread wasn’t already sufficiently hot or lively for you … :)
YiZhangZhe on December 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM
one time I was at Chicago’s airport in the international arriving flights area…and there was this clearly muslim man, robes/red and white bandana…walking with a woman in a full burkha walking 5 paces behind him…carrying the luggage!!
I thought…you know there is good in every culture!!!! ;-)
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:47 PM
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Quick unrelated question: Didn’t the Son of Sam killer hear messages from his dog? :P
Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 3:48 PM
right4life,
Slaves are not allowed by their slave masters to exercise their free will. You are. That’s the difference.
FierceGuppy on December 29, 2008 at 3:49 PM
my free will is to drive a red ferrari…but I can’t do that…we are all constrained in one form or another…is the military a form of slavery? can you just walk out?? no way…you’ll walk straight to jail…
Daniel was a slave in ancient Babylon…and he was one of the most important men in the kingdom…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:52 PM
along with the red ferrari a harem of beautiful girls…I should move to Saudi arabia!! sigh….
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Genesis 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread.”
“To read in the Bible, as the word of God himself, that ‘In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,’ and to preach there-from that, ‘In the sweat of other mans faces shalt thou eat bread,’ to my mind can scarcely be reconciled with honest sincerity.”
– Abraham Lincoln
aengus on December 29, 2008 at 3:54 PM
right4life
Remember the fatwa a year or so ago that would allow men and women to work together alone? The woman had to mimic being the mans mother by putting her nipple in his mouth and pretend to feed him. This would eliminate any fear of impropriety. I liked Islam for a whole day for that gem.
BL@KBIRD on December 29, 2008 at 3:56 PM
is Gates eating off the work of others? not at the beginning of MS, but now for sure…
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:57 PM
see there is good in every culture!! I really like the lady carrying the luggage…and you know a harem sounds good…until you have to listen to them every day…one is bad enough sometimes…
I used to wonder why in heaven they were neither married nor given in marriage….until I got married…then it made a great deal of sense!!!
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Well, then you are doing what you accuse me of doing, picking and choosing what you believe. Women were prohibited from any leadership in the church biblicaly, but you accept them in maybe Sunday School?
Funny how Jesus most precious possession is a child, so you allow women to teach the most precious, but not teach the adults? See how difficult it is to follow the Bible as the ultimate authority?
The answer to the hypothetical, I have already answered…having my child be a “slave” in Irvine, Ca. is better then dead of starvation.
Besides, Irvine probably has the best public school system in the United States. Also one of the finest Universities, and you can’t beat the strawberries come March, not to mention the shopping…just over the hill from Newport, Balboa Bay, Corona Del Mar…hardly a gulag.
Unlike you, I feel God has given me the right to choose, with discernment, a path. That path may be away from God at times, and in contradiction to His will, but I am still a Christian.
By your definition, any straying from the “Authority” and you are not a Christian.
That is where you and I differ.
It is also where liberals, theists, agnostics, have a difficult time understanding. That as Christians we strive to be what we are called to be, but we know we will always fall short of that goal…but it doesn’t matter.
You think not following the exact Word of God makes you a non-Christian, and I believe it doesn’t matter. It is by His Grace, and only His Grace. I can’t fool Him, manipulate Him, trick Him, or work harder or pay more money…He makes the decision.
And if my decisions were not just, by His standards, then it is His will, not mine that I am accepted or rejected….and although you have made that decision about me, I don’t worry, it is Him I have to please.
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 3:58 PM
I don’t understand the question.
aengus on December 29, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Shh. It keeps the other participants here at HA off-balance. Advantage mine.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 4:03 PM
so you think mothers don’t teach their children? you have a caricature of the bible..you don’t explore these issues very deeply, thats obvious.
yeah when you start making it up as you go to please society…le me guess…you’re fine with gay bishops, gay marriage, etc?
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Well, that was cute, when someone presents an intellectual argument, then you say it is tainted by “education”.
Luther was also educated, and an anti-semite.
Funny, that is basically what I am saying, the shifting of authority in the church is a learning process.
It shifted from Gregory, to the Pope, to the Bible, and now the Bible is being “re-interpreted”, and the Authority is shifting once again.
Of course the Word is the Word, but the defining of the Word is not the word.
Hence, women and gay’s in leadership roles…all fully supported by “biblical authority”?
Slavery abolished because of “biblical authority”?
right2bright on December 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM
if your ‘path’ leads you in contradiction to His will…are you sure you’re still a christian, and why would you even want to be at that point?
right4life on December 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Is your contention that Leviticus (25:44-46) doesn’t provide for the owning of other people as property and that there is no passage from the OT allowing a slave to be beaten?
dedalus on December 29, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Based on comments that they made, both Luther and Calvin thought that Copernicus was a lunatic. Yet, the earth DOES go around the sun. Neither man had ALL of the truth. We all see through the glass darkly.
My collie says:
It took the Catholic church 500 years to absolve Galileo. Somehow, I think Luther would have “come around” sooner, though I’m not so sure about Calvin.
CyberCipher on December 29, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2 3 4 Next »