Hamas gets its war

posted at 10:15 am on December 27, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

The patience of the Israelis reached its end today.  After taking more that 200 missile attacks in the past week, the IDF attacked every known Hamas security station in Gaza today, killing hundreds and wounding hundreds more.  Gazans pledged resistance to any ground invasion, but Israel has not yet indicated when — or if — one will come:

Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing at least 155 and wounding more than 310 in the single bloodiest day of fighting in recent memory.

Hamas said all of its security installations were hit and responded with several medium-range Grad rockets at Israel, reaching deeper than in the past. One Israeli was killed and at least four people were wounded.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said “the operation will last as long as necessary,” but it was not clear if it would be coupled with a ground offensive. Asked if Hamas political leaders might be targeted next, military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich said, “Any Hamas target is a target.” …

But with 200 mortars and rockets raining down on Israel since the truce expired a week ago, and 3,000 since the beginning of the year, according to the military’s count, pressure had been mounting in Israel for the military to crush the gunmen.

Hamas made it clear last week that they wanted war.  They announced the end of the so-called truce, although as the 16th paragraph in this report finally makes clear, Hamas and other affiliated groups had never stopped attacking Israel.  They want to provoke a wider war and hope to get Egypt involved.  The Egyptians opened the border to provide emergency medical care to the wounded and condemned the attack, but have not broken diplomatic relations with Israel yet over the attack.

The world should step aside and quit interfering in the war Hamas so desperately wants and will desperately lose if left to their own devices.  As long as Hamas controls Gaza, a state of war exists, and cease-fires do nothing to advance peace, as this year has proven yet again.  Tiresome calls for “restraint” don’t work when one side is determined to have war.  The best way to resolve this conflict is to allow Hamas to have its war and get utterly crushed by Israel or overthrown by Gazans to avoid that unavoidable conclusion.

Hamas insists on a war of annihilation and won’t accept any other solution.  Let them have it.

Update: Meanwhile, Fox needs a new headline writer, according to HA reader Roger B:

No mention of the 200+ rocket attacks Hamas conducted on Israel over the past week, or at least some hint in the headlines of the context of Israel’s response?  Surely they can do better than that.


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Look at the thing in evolutionary terms. Consider a society to be a species. The species posited by DeadMediaHack and St Olaf are doomed to extinction because of an plethora of principles and a paucity of balls, respectively.

Things that survive fight to do so, whether they be viruses, bugs, plants, or people. People who won’t resist aggression will be weeded out quickly once the inevitable happens and the status quo gets seriously disturbed, whether that be by a megaeruption at Yellowstone, an astroid strike, or nuclear warfare.

Somehow, that is immensely comforting to me.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 6:32 PM

an a plethora

fixed

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 6:43 PM

could not possibly be streched to include committing murder to “defend” one’s body.

Define “murder” for me. Killing enemy combatants on the battlefield, killing to protect one’s home is not murder. Murder is the unjustified killing of another. Murder is killing with evil intent. Abortion is murder. Shooting the clerk in a convenience store prior to robbing it is murder. Defending my wife and children from rape and murder by killing the perpetrator is not murder. I love family enough to protect them, spiritually and physically. Over my dead body will someone harm them.
Also, you have yet to respond to any of the other texts that I mentioned.

I’m sorry bro but your form of Christianity is not the correct form you just made it up now.

Just War Theory is not a new concept. Justification for armed self-defense is not a new concept. I’ve made nothing up. Both are scripturally based, as I have shown.

Your form is too worldy and materialistic.
SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 1:03 PM

How so?

Send_Me on December 29, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Defending my wife and children from rape and murder by killing the perpetrator is not murder.

Send_Me on December 29, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Absolutely. To the contrary, it is your duty to do so, and if you failed to do your utmost to fulfill that duty you would be beneath contempt.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 7:25 PM

My mom was watching Jane Velez-Mitchell lay the blame for this whole thing on Israel and the U.S., bitching about “shock and awe.”

And she still says that CNN is completely and totally objective because . . . she has a degree in journalism.

More like, stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 8:41 PM

My mom was watching Jane Velez-Mitchell lay the blame for this whole thing on Israel and the U.S., whining about “shock and awe.”

And she still says that CNN is completely and totally objective because . . . she has a degree in journalism.

More like, stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Ryan Gandy on December 29, 2008 at 8:42 PM

Look at the thing in evolutionary terms. Consider a society to be a species. The species posited by DeadMediaHack and St Olaf are doomed to extinction because of an plethora of principles and a paucity of balls, respectively.

Evidently that’s your problem right there.
You’ve obviously embraced evolutionary “spirituality”..a false, flawed and evil philosophy.

Frankly it makes you quite the dangerous pychopath.
Your philosophy encourages you to kill all those whom you perceive as weak and encourages you to do any evil deed that you think you can “get away” with..

One day you WILL meet your maker and find out there is more to this life than you imagined.

Every knee will bow before Him one day. For you that will be a hellish experience.

I feel very sorry for you, if you persist in your murderous philosophy and die in the state that you are in today..

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

Just War Theory is not a new concept. Justification for armed self-defense is not a new concept. I’ve made nothing up.

Sorry man, “just war” does NOT exist in Christianity.

The only war that exists in Christianity is Spiritual War!

Because you do not understand this, it is obvious to see why you are butchering the Holy Scriptures,butchering Christianity and promoting heresy.

You don’t understand that because you have a materialistic and worldly view of Christianity.

THAT’S NOT WHAT IT’S ABOUT.

Both are scripturally based, as I have shown.

No you haven’t shown anything but that you believe in heresy.

I have thoroughly refuted your claims in this post:

“The problem with both SendMe’s and Right4Life’s faulty interpretation is that you are taking a verse way out of context without understanding the power of God and placing a false interpretation on it, that contradicts the vast majority of other verses related to the subject..(I’m speaking about Luke 22:35-38).

NEVER does Christ preach that His believers should practice violence…NEVER.

HE ALWAYS preached the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The “sword you are referring to is the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT!!

He is referring to the Living Word of God in the battle against sin!

When He is talking about giving up one’s garment and buying a sword He is also referring to surrendering the body to the sword of martyrdom!
Because the disciples were thinking of swords literally Christ ends the discussion abruptly saying “it is enough” or better translated from the Greek “ENOUGH OF THIS”!

Do you see what you’ve done?

You’ve taken one verse way out of context without understanding and it contradicts EVERYTHING ELSE Christ has said about this subject and it is leading you to sin!

Any Bible scholar will tell you this verse does not refer to an actual sword and that it would contradict everything else He has said. That’s what happens when you pick and choose verses and quote them out of context.

I don’t know if it is just a demonic hatred of muslims that you harbor or if it is just your shallow and materialistic fear of martyrdom that lead you to so blatantly butcher the Holy Scriptures but it is a serious and dangerous error.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 3:00 AM”

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:40 PM

You’ve obviously embraced evolutionary “spirituality”..a false, flawed and evil philosophy.

Frankly it makes you quite the dangerous pychopath.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

Phooey. You’re a crank, Olaf. The monks of Constantinople manned the walls on that terrible day in 1453 when the Turk took and desecrated the city. You’re holier than them, though – you would have willingly handed it to them and offered your own children to be raised as slave-soldiers of the Ottoman sultan.

Resisting evil is not a sin. Yeilding to evil is not a virtue. It is a weakness and a sin in itself, especially when in so doing you abandon those who have been entrusted to your care and who depended upon you for protection.

The good shepherd doesn’t stand by while the lambs are carried away by wolves.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 9:44 PM

No you haven’t shown anything but that you believe in heresy.

I have thoroughly refuted your claims in this post:

same old same old saintolaf..but you can’t prove it by the bible or 2,000 years of christianity..

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 9:47 PM

The monks of Constantinople manned the walls on that terrible day in 1453 when the Turk took and desecrated the city

with a cross in one hand, and a sword in the other. thats the way it should be!!

thank God for those men, they had guts.

Thank God for the Crusaders, and Charles Martel, I wish we had him around now…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 9:48 PM

The monks of Constantinople manned the walls on that terrible day in 1453 when the Turk took and desecrated the city
with a cross in one hand, and a sword in the other. thats the way it should be!!

The problem with that is, it is not a true statement.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:50 PM

You don’t return evil with evil.

“Thou shalt not Kill”

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:54 PM

Heresy, indeed – if anybody on this forum were to be chosen as guest of honor at an auto de fe, Olaf, you would be my top pick. Your combination of your certitude and refusal to consider the teachings of the General Councils and traditions of the christian church in arriving at your extreme opinions marks you as a renegade.

And the monks did, too, man the walls. As did the Emperor. Read up on it.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 9:56 PM

No man the monks did not “man the walls”, it doesn’t matter if the emperor did though.

BTW please inform as to which of the 7 ecunemical councils advocated murder..

Don’t spend all day looking for it though because you won’t find it.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:59 PM

Resisting evil is not a sin. Yeilding to evil is not a virtue. It is a weakness and a sin in itself, especially when in so doing you abandon those who have been entrusted to your care and who depended upon you for protection.

Sure you can murder an intruder to defend your family….but don’t lie and say that it’s not a sin to take a human life.

But wouldn’t you agree that the proper response would be to pray and trust God?

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:02 PM

The problem with that is, it is not a true statement.

Taintaloaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:50 PM

Is it possible that you’re wrong?

Itchee Dryback on December 29, 2008 at 10:03 PM

“Thou shalt not Kill”
SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:54 PM

its actually ‘thou shall not MURDER’ otherwise God was violating His own commandments when He told the Israelites to wipe out the ammorites.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:11 PM

Sure you can murder an intruder to defend your family….but don’t lie and say that it’s not a sin to take a human life.

But wouldn’t you agree that the proper response would be to pray and trust God?

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:02 PM

this is getting annoying…if you KILL an intruder its NOT MURDER..get a clue.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:11 PM

No man the monks did not “man the walls”, it doesn’t matter if the emperor did though.

BTW please inform as to which of the 7 ecunemical councils advocated murder..

Don’t spend all day looking for it though because you won’t find it.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:59 PM

Council of Arles, 314 A.D. – Besides dealing with the Donatists, this council made considered whether christians could properly be called upon to go to war and decided that they could, saying that to forbid the state to protect itself would be to condemn it to extinction.

What else would you like to know?

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:12 PM

and yeah monks fought…

In 1048 some Italian merchants founded an order of monks called the Order of St John of Jerusalem. They cared for sick pilgrims. In 1113 the order was formally recognised by the Pope.

However at that time the Christians were fighting the Crusades against the Muslims. The Order of St John began to fight Muslims as well as care for sick pilgrims. So they became the Knights of St John.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:13 PM

The problem with that is, it is not a true statement.

Taintaloaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Is it possible that you’re wrong?

Itchee Dryback on December 29, 2008 at 10:03 PM

It’s ok Itchee, you can call me by my handle SaintOlaf…it doesn’t imply that I’m a saint(I’m far from it actually..I’m probably the worst of sinners)…

It’s my ancestors name.

And yes I am often wrong. So I guess I would concede that possibility.

But the picture these guys are painting with the warmongering killer monks and Jesus freeing Himself and slaying the roman guards at his crucifixion and telling his disciples to kill their enemies sounds like something from crazy land to me.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:14 PM

The Order of the Knights Templar were founded in the years following the end of the First Crusade. From that point on The Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon grew until it became one of the most powerful forces in medieval Europe. For 200 years its members served in the Holy Land until they were all arrested on Friday October 13, 1307. The Order was dissolved in 1312 and the last Grand Master burned to death in 1414 – condemned as a heretic after years of persecution and a trial. Many believe that this was because the European monarchs, most notably Philip the Fair of France, felt threatened by the power the Order held.

Most of the knights who joined became monks – taking vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. They were outfitted for fighting by the Order, a suit of armour, three horses and a sword, but could not retain possession of anything else. There were varying ranks, according to their social position upon entering the Order and it was difficult for the men to move up. Knights made up the first rank, common men made up the second rank of sergeants (who acted as squires) and priests made up the third rank. The vows were for life, just like any other monastic vows, but provisions were made to allow others to serve with the Order for a set period of time. Bernard of Clairvaux set out the Rule after being contacted by the Order’s founder, Hugh de Payens in 1127. Those who joined for life, though, could not leave unless they retired to a monastery to live out their life there.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:17 PM

and thank God those monks did fight…else we would be muslim…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:18 PM

But the picture these guys are painting with the warmongering killer monks and Jesus freeing Himself and slaying the roman guards at his crucifixion and telling his disciples to kill their enemies sounds like something from crazy land to me.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:14 PM

you have to lie about your opponents positions…and lying ain’t very christian…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:12 PM

BS.

Many martyrs are officially recognized who died in battle because they refused to kill another human being.

Order of St John of Jerusalem

I think you’ve proven my point. That was a heretical Roman Catholic order.
Who cares what they did. They didn’t represent Christianity they changed it and fled from it and in fact attacked the Church and sacked Constantinople during the so called fourth “crusade”. They were murderers,criminals and heretics.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:19 PM

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Ok I was exaggerating.

Killer monks and Jesus telling his disciples to kill humans with swords…better?

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM

They didn’t represent Christianity they changed it and fled from it and in fact attacked the Church and sacked Constantinople during the so called fourth “crusade”. They were murderers,criminals and heretics.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:19 PM

I consider them far more christian than you.

and I’d rather fight with them, than bend over with you.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM

Killer monks and Jesus telling his disciples to kill humans with swords…better?

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM

they weren’t ‘killer’ monks…they fighting to defend their faith, their country, and their families. the muslims slaughtered tens of millions of people when they took control of a country.

and Jesus DID tell His disciples to get a sword, to defend themselves…

King David…God’s chosen man, WARRIOR to the Nth degree…and you think God CHANGED?? and decided no, I like people who just sit back and die…keep dreaming…

your god is not the God of the Bible, who does NOT change…get a clue.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:24 PM

Dostoyevsky was right when he said:

Roman Catholicism eventually leads to imperialism and Protestantism eventually leads to atheism.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:25 PM

and Who do you think Jesus is?? He is the Angel of the Lord who went and killed 185,000 assyrians..He is the one who will open the seals of the book in revelation, and pour out the wrath of God..He is the ONE at the great white throne…who will cast people into hell…

your ‘jesus’ is a figment of your imagination..

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:26 PM

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:14 PM

I think part of the problem is that you’re expecting the entire world to either see things through the lens of your peculiar sensibility, or they are not only wrong, but closing in on evil.
Is it possible that the view..not any particular of it, but that view is wrong or an irrational expectation?

Itchee Dryback on December 29, 2008 at 10:27 PM

CANONS TO SYLVESTER FROM THE COUNCIL OF ARLES

The assembly of bishops who were gathered at the town of Arles, to our lord and most holy brother Sylvester:

That which we in common council have decreed, we hereby make known to your most esteemed person, so that also the bishops might know what ought to be observed in the future.

1. In the first place, concerning the celebration of Easter Sunday: That it is to be observed by us on one day and at one time in all the earth, and that you should send out letters to all as is the custom.

2. Concerning those who have been ordained ministers in certain places: They are to continue to serve in those same places.

3. Concerning those who lay down their weapons in peacetime, it is resolved that they be excluded from fellowship.

Thus, it was not only decided that Christians

could

be soldiers, it was decreed that deserts were to be excommunicated even in peacetime.

It’s perfectly OK to have a ultra-pacifist view of Christianity. That was the prevailing view for the first three centuries of the church, and it is still the view of several minor groups, including Mennonites and Quakers. If that’s your belief, Olaf, good on you. But you’re kidding people when you try to convince them that your view is in accord with the traditional orthodoxy.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM

deserts deserters were to be excommunicated

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM

and Jesus DID tell His disciples to get a sword, to defend themselves…

Dude I’ve already proven you wrong about that several times…read the above post.

And when exactly have I ever personally attacked you?

Never.

I consider them far more christian than you.

Nobody asked you.

I’d rather fight with them, than bend over with you.

fight with them if you like.

It’s your own free will that decides whether you follow Christ’s commandments or not. But don’t call yourself Christian if you choose not to follow Him.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM

Cornelius, the first gentile convert, was a CENTURION…and he was never told to leave the Legions…and olaf said ‘I didn’t kow that for sure’ like the Holy Spirit just ‘forgot’ to mention that…

annoying…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:30 PM

And re: the BS comment – not very Christian of you, Saint Olaf.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:31 PM

Nobody asked you.

oh please, this from the man who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is posessed by a devil..you really are a moron.

It’s your own free will that decides whether you follow Christ’s commandments or not. But don’t call yourself Christian if you choose not to follow Him.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM

I sure don’t call you a christian. you’re an anti-semite…and I didn’t know much about the orthodox, but since I’ve run into you, I really don’t like them at all…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:32 PM

3. Concerning those who lay down their weapons in PEACETIME, it is resolved that they be excluded from fellowship.

Good job. Thanks for proving my point for me buddy.

Christians were allowed to be in the military but NOT allowed to kill!

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:33 PM

Dude I’ve already proven you wrong about that several times…read the above post.

And when exactly have I ever personally attacked you?

Never.

I consider this a personal attack…

200+ innocent civilians are dead due to israeli terrorism and you maniacs are sitting there hoping that they will wipe out another 1.5 million.

You’re all a bunch of sick maniacs.

SaintOlaf on December 27, 2008 at 8:50 PM

and anti-semitic as hell…and thats just one example…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:34 PM

Cornelius, the first gentile convert, was a CENTURION…and he was never told to leave the Legions

The question of the propriety of christians serving in the Roman Army came up later, after the army was employed in the pre-Constantine persecutions.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:35 PM

here’s another one…

It’s so sad to see how many of you are homicidal pychopaths who support murder and genocide of innocent children.

It’s also so sad to see how many of you are just brainless sheep who believe whatever the media tells you and would gladly murder innocent civilians if the media tells you to.

What is the world coming to?

SaintOlaf on December 27, 2008 at 9:18 PM

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:36 PM

The question of the propriety of christians serving in the Roman Army came up later, after the army was employed in the pre-Constantine persecutions.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:35 PM

that may be, but the bible itself never told a believer serving in the military to leave…and Centurions weren’t exactly baby sitters…and the legions weren’t exactly boy scouts…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 10:37 PM

A lot of anger there. Very disturbing. I respect pacifists even if I disagree, and I love the Orthodox Church. But, Olaf, you are giving both a bad name here by your name-calling and anger.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:38 PM

right4life,

I hope you notice I’ve always been very patient with you even though you chase many people away from Christianity with your calling people “Trash” and etc.. possibly because I think you are persistent about what you believe at least and I’m patient, I believe peole will learn more if they are interested in learning.

But honestly I think you will find islam more akin to your violent and ill tempered version of Christianity.

You believe in moralism not morality and you believe in Christianity(your own version of it) not Christ imo..

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:41 PM

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:31 PM

How so man? I called BS and I was right.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:42 PM

I consider this a personal attack…

Maybe you’re right. I didn’t really mean it as a personal attack but as to stating my opinon re. people who believe in such philosophy and it wasn’t posted to you BTW.

Regardless I apologize for insinuating that those people are sick maniacs for stating that they would like to kill 1.5 million innocent children. There was probably a better way for me to communicate my disgust and disapproval.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:48 PM

No wonder the Republican Party is dead.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:51 PM

Food for thought from David Bernstein at the Volokh Conspiracy:

…when a terrorist entity controls territory bordering that of a sovereign nation, and indiscriminately lobs rockets into that nation’s territory, terrifying the civilian population and making normal life unlivable, what is a proportionate response?

Israel has engaged in pinpoint targeting of military facilities operated by said terrorist entities, and has gone so far as to send messages in Arabic to residents of Gaza, warning them that if they allow their homes or businesses are sheltering Hamas weaponry, they will be destroyed. Even according to Palestinian sources, the overwhelming majority of victims of Israeli bombs thus far have been Hamas fighters. This is perhaps the least extreme response that any sovereign nation faced with an analogous situation has ever engaged in. Cf. Russia in Chechnya.

Venusian, don’t let a minority of posters get to you. The GOP is fine, particularly on this issue.

Y-not on December 29, 2008 at 11:11 PM

A lot of anger there. Very disturbing. I respect pacifists even if I disagree, and I love the Orthodox Church. But, Olaf, you are giving both a bad name here by your name-calling and anger.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:38 PM

I actually agree with you. It proves my point that I made earlier..I’m just a sinner. I don’t represent the Church.

If I am a stumbling block that leads right4life to not find the truth I apologize and I would suggest he look up their position himself.

That’s what I believe the position is, but look it up for yourself and tell me how you can reconcile the numerous Scriptures that advocated non violence with your position.

Thou shalt not kill

turn the other cheek

My Kingdom is not of this world

do not return evil with evil

put away your sword, those who live by the sword will die by it

blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God

etc etc etc etc.

And no r4Life I am no anti semite.

I truly believe Christ when he condemns racism and try to live by it when He tells of the good samaritan and also when He says:

there is neither jew nor gentile

Just because I believe Christ when He says Israel of God is by FAITH not flesh and blood and there is neither jew nor gentile does not mean I am racist, that is ridiculous.

Yes I oppose judaism and yes I oppose zionism, but just because I stated that the Christians are the Israel of God and that the so called “israeli’s” are not israel does not mean I am racist, it just means I believe the Bible.

That is a cheap shot liberal tactic you are using.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 11:17 PM

But honestly I think you will find islam more akin to your violent and ill tempered version of Christianity.

you should check the mirror.

and yes you are an anti-semite. and no you cannot defend your position by scripture.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:20 PM

That is a cheap shot liberal tactic you are using.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 11:17 PM

again you should check the mirro..people like you NEVER condemn the muslims…and their atrocities..

ever hear of the MILLIONS of armenians who were slaughtered by the muslims???

please.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:21 PM

Regardless I apologize for insinuating that those people are sick maniacs for stating that they would like to kill 1.5 million innocent children. There was probably a better way for me to communicate my disgust and disapproval.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 10:48 PM

but you have no problem with the muslim desire to kill all the jews…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:22 PM

blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God

and being a peacemaker doesn’t mean SURRENDER…pathetic.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:23 PM

people like you NEVER condemn the muslims…and their atrocities..

Wrong. I condemn the atrocities of the anti-Christ religion of islam all the time.

Even on this thread I have numerous times.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 11:23 PM

I sure didn’t see it…post it…I saw you tell how the muslims don’t kill christians, we live as dhimmis…as if thats OK…

and you sure haven’t said anything about the muslim missiles striking and killing the jews…..no all you do is condemn the state of israel for protecting themselves..

and you know if there weren’t people willing to die to defend this country, you would not have the freedom you do to spout such nonsense. I find your position a distortion of scripture, and frankly despicable.

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:31 PM

I find your opposing judaism more than a little ironic, given Jesus was a jew..and have you never read what Paul said about the jews in Romans?? perhaps you should re-read it before speaking so ill of the jews again..

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Using the term Israeli terrorism to describe self defense is ridiculous

It’s not self defense. It’s terrorism.

They are killing innocent civilians outside of the legal conventions of war.

Why are you defending terrorists and then condemning others for the same thing?

Kind of hypocritical don’t you think?

SaintOlaf on December 27, 2008 at 9:13 PM

this is beyond the pale. calling israel terrorists for defending themselves is pathetic and sickening.

since you want to be a martyr SO much, why don’t you go to karachi, and preach Christ crucified on the street?

and see what your ‘friends’ the muslism do…

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:35 PM

muslims have ruled over majority Christian nations for 1,200 years and they haven’t “killed all non muslims” like you claim.

It’s total propaganda.

Yes we’re second class citzens in muslim nations and yes we may have to pay a jizya tax but they do not kill you because you are not muslim!

SaintOlaf on December 28, 2008 at 1:26 PM

this is a flat out lie…the muslims have conquered christian lands, and forced them to convert..or die, or become dhimmis…

and not a word about what happened to the armenians….predictable..

right4life on December 29, 2008 at 11:37 PM

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:40 PM

See previous post. I address your arguments there. Thanks.

Because you do not understand this, it is obvious to see why you are butchering the Holy Scriptures,butchering Christianity and promoting heresy.
You don’t understand that because you have a materialistic and worldly view of Christianity.

You claim that I’m speaking heresy. Interesting. If I am speaking heresy, then please show me: book, chapter, and verse. I’ve explained my position thoroughly using Scripture, as have others here. I’ve answered your contentions that Jesus was somehow telling the disciples to buy “swords of the spirit”. You have yet to answer any of the other texts that justify the position of armed self-defense. Jesus taught meekness, not weakness. There is a difference. Not once have I advocated for hate, but rather for a righteous anger. An example of righteous anger was Jesus in the Temple when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. Joshua was a warrior. David was a warrior. Jesus is a warrior (Revelation 19:11-21). Not once in all of Scripture is a soldier condemned or rebuked for his status as a warrior. Rather, Jesus saves his greatest complement for a centurion: “When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, ‘I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.’” (Matthew 8:10)
Here’s some other food for thought from Judges 3:
“These are the nations the Lord left to test all those Israelites who had not experienced any of the wars in Canaan (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo Hamath. They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the Lord’s commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.” Did God all of a sudden change his character, his views on killing? Did Jesus come to pacify the world? No. Jesus came to “fulfill” the law, not to change it (Matthew 5:17).
Now, I do agree with you that we’re fighting a spiritual war. But wouldn’t you agree that this spiritual war would manifest itself physically? This is the law of the harvest. Thoughts lead to desires; desires to temptations; temptations to action; action to habit; habit to character; character to destiny. Are you saying that abortion, for example, is not the physical manifestation of the spiritual war on this earth? I’d like to know your thoughts on this.

Send_Me on December 29, 2008 at 11:45 PM

No actually I post about the armenian holocaust of 50 million Orhtodox Christians frequently..

I find your opposing judaism more than a little ironic, given Jesus was a jew

So what if Jesus was of hebrew blood? Judaism is a different story entirely…they deny Christ entirely.

Judaism is an anti-Christ religion. (as is islam)

In no way should Christians blindly side with them.

This situation is a situation where we have no dog in this fight. The only thing I can think of is the preservation of holy sites in palestine and the arabs HAVE done a very good job of preserving those sites which we should give them credit for.

That being said I think they are both wrong and honestly they both commit acts of terror which we shouldn’t blind our eyes to.

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 11:51 PM

I will concede that this debate re. pacifism has certainly been a very interesting debate that has made me think(I hope you all can say the same)

If I have scared anyone away from the true faith of Orthodox Christianity regarding my ultra pacifist view I sincerely apologize and again say that you should seek out the true position of the Church for yourself with a priest..

While the mantra: “there is no just war in Orthodoxy” sounds cut and dry it really is not.

I will admit there are certain situations which this might not apply.

For example there is an Orthodox Saint(St. Nestor) who did kill in order to protect some Christians.

And I would concede that a home invasion may be one such instance where this is justified.

As for war, I do believe that there is no such thing as a “just war”, only a “lesser evil war”.

One of the problems with just war is the atrocities that result when it turns into a “holy war” such as in the crusades where the Roman Catholics even went so far as to say that one’s sins wuld be absolved by killing muslims…

Remember that there was a time when even Orthodox Christians and muslims fought side by side against the corrupt Roman Catholics who sacked and invaded Constantinople during the fourth “crusade” and brought back the art,literature and etc. (which resulted in the “enlightenment in western europe)…

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 12:11 AM

Now, I do agree with you that we’re fighting a spiritual war. But wouldn’t you agree that this spiritual war would manifest itself physically?

I think that’s a dangerous proposition.

One is supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin.

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 12:13 AM

muslims have ruled over majority Christian nations for 1,200 years and they haven’t “killed all non muslims” like you claim.

It’s total propaganda.

Yes we’re second class citzens in muslim nations and yes we may have to pay a jizya tax but they do not kill you because you are not muslim!

SaintOlaf on December 28, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Dude what do you think happened to the Christian community in Istanbul Constantinople during the 20th century!!????

Venusian Visitor on December 30, 2008 at 12:54 AM

A lot of anger there. Very disturbing. I respect pacifists even if I disagree, and I love the Orthodox Church. But, Olaf, you are giving both a bad name here by your name-calling and anger.

Venusian Visitor on December 29, 2008 at 10:38 PM

Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist.
- George Orwell

MB4 on December 30, 2008 at 2:31 AM

“Thou shalt not Kill”

SaintOlaf on December 29, 2008 at 9:54 PM

It’s “Thou shalt not commit murder”, you sanctimonious tool.

If you can’t even get that much right, it speaks volumes to your ecclesiastical acumen.

War and murder aren’t the same thing. Only a coward or a scoundrel would argue so.

SuperCool on December 30, 2008 at 2:39 AM

Yes that is a very good point.

I believe I mentioned that a couple of posts ago.

50 million Orthodox Christians were martyred.

That was the worst holocaust in human history with the exception of the Russian holocaust of Orthodox Christians in which the communist atheists martyred 70 million Orthodox Christians ina 70 years period

Still I believe that the only way that islam will be destroyed is not by violence, but by converting the muslims back to the Orthodox Church.

The reality is islam is fundamentally flawed and it will fall apart.

Islam is not really a seperate religion, it is a Christian heresy that began with the arian or nestorian excommunicated heretic monk who taught mohammed.

Here is an interesting link about St John Damscene’s thoughts about the heresy of islam.

http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210

(St. John Damascene lived right around the time that islam was formed and grew up with the man who became the Umayyad Caliph)

“St. John of Damscus, The qur’an contains foolish sayings worthy of laughter” Note that he quotes a section of the qur’an that no longer exists also.

The Brittish writer Hillaire Belloc in his book the Great heresies described Islam as the original Calvinism: no priesthood, no sacraments, etc.(and also I might add they eliminated the Holy Trinity like the mormons)

In “The Inferno” Dante puts Mohammed in the eighth circle, ninth bolgia of hell with the other sowers of scandal and schism.

The reason why it sounds like I’m defending the muslims sometimes is because it only makes it harder to convert the muslims if we persist in demonizing each other.

Islam is so flawed in so many ways and any muslim who is exposed to the fact that they originated as simply a heresy of Orthodox Christianity will without a doubt convert back to the true Faith, if given the opportunity to set their guard down and hear.

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 3:11 AM

It’s “Thou shalt not commit murder”, you sanctimonious tool.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. King James Version

I’ll be waiting for your apology.

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 3:24 AM

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. King James Version

I’ll be waiting for your apology.

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 3:24 AM

Be sure to hold your breath while you do.

Torah says “Thou shall not commit murder.”

I think the guys who transcribed the Torah know their Hebrew better than the guys who wrote the KJB.

Sorry if that inconveniences you, it’s just how it is.

SuperCool on December 30, 2008 at 4:19 AM

Wow..this back and forth is still going on! In my opinion, this is a living example of the futility of trying to reason with anyone who simply refuses to allow reason the enter their world view.

You can’t reason a person out of a position that was not reasoned into.

SO and DTMH seem to fit that bill. One seems to float in a universe of intellectual and philosophical dodgeball and one in a in a universe of biblical cryptology. Neither of these reflect reality.
In my opinion, this is the same mindset of the terrorist, only much less personally involved in the stated beliefs.

That is the ONLY similarity I’m pointing out with terrorists. I need to state that because part and parcel of the mindset of those who refuse to deal with reality is to try to deflect anyones point by accusing one of making statements that were not made.

The possibility of reasoning terrorists into changing their ways and world view, has about as much possibility of success as talking a tree out of being a tree and maybe trying out being a rock for a change…..ain’t gonna happen.

If reason can’t touch the minds of basically peaceful and respectful people and allow them to see another’s point of view as valid and resonable, what are the chances of reason having an effect on the minds of those in terrorist organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, AQ or other radical organizations…people who see horribly brutal acts against innocent people as something to celebrate and build their egos? The only solution is to either contain or kill them and teach the young another way.

Itchee Dryback on December 30, 2008 at 9:02 AM

In my opinion, this is a living example of the futility of trying to reason with anyone who simply refuses to allow reason the enter their world view.

You can’t reason a person out of a position that was not reasoned into.

SO and DTMH seem to fit that bill

It’s so ironic that you say that..

It seems like you’re referring to yourself.

If you would have bothered to read a few posts up, you would be aware that the only example here of someone who improves upon their position upon further consideration is me.

I did basically concede that while a war can never be considered “Just” it may be considered a “lesser evil war” and I did state that killing an enraged pychopath during a home invasion could be considered “just”.

I think this finally proves my point that the biggest problem we are facing is the lack of most peoples ability to do the slightest amount of research.

SaintOlaf on December 30, 2008 at 1:34 PM

I did basically concede that while a war can never be considered “Just” it may be considered a “lesser evil war” and I did state that killing an enraged pychopath during a home invasion could be considered “just”.

Thank you! that was surprising! see there is hope for the disparate groups of christianity to come together!

right4life on December 30, 2008 at 2:23 PM

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