How to ensure weather-related traffic accidents
posted at 6:30 pm on December 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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I’ve lived in Minnesota for over 11 years, and one thing people get expert at in a hurry here is snow and traffic. This area has snow abatement down to a science, and they use all the tools at their disposal. We don’t turn up our noses at road salt, and we therefore make driving safer in the Twin Cities. Seattle apparently has other priorities (via Michelle):
To hear the city’s spin, Seattle’s road crews are making “great progress” in clearing the ice-caked streets.
But it turns out “plowed streets” in Seattle actually means “snow-packed,” as in there’s snow and ice left on major arterials by design.
“We’re trying to create a hard-packed surface,” said Alex Wiggins, chief of staff for the Seattle Department of Transportation. “It doesn’t look like anything you’d find in Chicago or New York.”
The city’s approach means crews clear the roads enough for all-wheel and four-wheel-drive vehicles, or those with front-wheel drive cars as long as they are using chains, Wiggins said.
And why do they leave a hard-packed surface? Seattle has abandoned the use of salt to clear snow:
The icy streets are the result of Seattle’s refusal to use salt, an effective ice-buster used by the state Department of Transportation and cities accustomed to dealing with heavy winter snows.
Why? They don’t want salt water running off into Puget Sound. It’s apparently so harmful to the environment that they’re willing to sacrifice a few drivers instead.
Here’s why we use salt, even in enviro-friendly Minnesota. When snow gets packed down onto roads, it turns to ice underneath, and even the best tires can’t find a purchase on it. Salt lowers the freezing temperature of water, allowing the ice to break apart and snow plows to pull it off the road. Gravel also helps, but gravel on ice doesn’t provide nearly enough traction by itself.
I drive on snow-packed roads all winter long when the plows haven’t made it through that road yet. It’s not fun, and even with a full-wheel drive vehicle like mine, spinouts are inevitable. Seattle has discovered the same thing:
“Sunday was full of car crashes, even after several pleas from State Patrol and local police to stay off the roads.
The State Patrol responded to 157 collisions Sunday in King County. …
Between noon and midnight on Saturday, the State Patrol responded to 246 collisions … in King County.”
I’m sorry, but that’s ludicrous. Many of those accidents might have been avoided had Seattle used well-tested and available snow abatement processes that included salt. Instead of begging people to stay home, maybe officials should stop trading the safety of its citizens for an opportunity to pat itself on the back for its environmental sensitivity.
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God.. Seattle is apparently even more incompetent than Chicago. Snow removal is the only thing that Chicago does well, because while Chicagoans are okay with politicians selling Senate seats, they will run the guys out with their pitchforks if they cannot get out of their parking space.
Illinidiva on December 23, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Not quite, not quite… you can compare it to any other city with 20% grades. And those are in town, not in some outlying suburb.
Here in Seattle we’ve declined the use of sand for much longer than that envirodweeb quoted in the article has had a job. (I agree… Chief Wiggums… really?) Since 1990 we’ve used liquid de-icer to clear the roads, as it is much less corrosive than pure salt. The corrosion factor is HUGE here… and has always been the deciding factor concerning the use of salt. Clearing the roads this weekend with salt would give you maybe three days extra road surface, but start an unstoppable corrosion process on all of our raised roads.
This means about 40% of Interstate Roadway in the City of Seattle. Wanna pay for that, Minnisota? Federal Roads dontchaknow. Another big benefit of compact snow/ice on the roads is that the cars and trucks with chains or studded tires get more traction than on pure iced asphalt, and wear the road surface much less aggressively.
I’m sorry Ed, you’re wrong on this one. We know that when we get these once-a-decade storms that we’re stuck for a few days… it’s like a hurricane dropping trees and powerlines down South – it happens, and you take a deep breath and play some Yahtzee.
I drive on the roads professionally, and our vehicles have proper studded tires (yes they are allowed) and chains for when we need them. The fact that the West Seattle precinct doesn’t use them is a Sergeant level decision… other precincts have steeper hills or flatter beats… and chain up when needed. All Fire Department trucks do so as well.
As for buses: Articulated buses are dangerous on DRY roads, and useless on ice — however the buses that crashed through a concrete wall ov er I-5 were from East of the Mountains (where they get Michigan levels of snow) and the drivers chose to go down a 20+% grade ending in a “T”. That, my friends, is driver error, not a road maintenance issue. Thomas Ave E. at that point is a cobblestone neighborhood path, not an arterial…
This whole situation is being reported just as properly as you would expect from Seattle’s Big Media…
Mr Michael on December 23, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Here’s another problem…
This was tried in a local private housing development because sand and gravel was cheaper…
It worked adequately, but, as the snow melted it washed sizeable amounts of a nice slush and gravel slurry into the drains.
That’s right! Clogged, and requiring crews with steam blasters to try to clear the storm drains!
Waydago NitWits! And, since when is salt runoff into the ocean ecologically unsound?
heldmyw on December 23, 2008 at 10:51 PM
this cracks me up.
I live in 6 months of winter. I am use to the snow, ice, frozen rain etc. We do not use salt up here anymore. We use pea gravel and sand/dirt combo. Anchorage is the only place in Alaska that uses the stupid combonation of salt water mix which makes the roads absolutely slick and nasty. Thank Begich.
But the difference is that the main roads are done even while it is snowing due to back up. No need to have 2 to 6 inch humps on the roads when you are trying to get over. But it is people who drive fast, even if it is snowing and thing that their 4 wheel drive is going to be better. It isn’t better on braking.
We just had a fatal car accident due to the snow. Bird creek area (BAD AREA) which is surprising since usually it is cars swept out due to Avalanches.
upinak on December 23, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Mr Michael
Ok, I would say it is more comparable to San Francisco, it is rare for Seattle to get this amount of snow.
What Ed and Michelle are doing is no different then the goons at Kos and HuffPo do. The facts are distorted, and taken completely out of context. A conservative site must use a higher standard then the goon sites.
This site has basically deteriorated into a news reader site with distorted observations.
If you are conservative, get the facts first, then tell your story. This is the worste snow storm to hit the Puget Sound since 1996, and all in all we are dealing with it pretty well, maybe we should ask for a few billion dollar bail out.
Don’t blast NYT for being loose with the facts, then do the same on your site.
Rode Werk on December 23, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Seattle is getting the government they deserve. They voted them into office so they get to live with their decisions.
Theworldisnotenough on December 23, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Do you want to post the facts that Ed is not?
Theworldisnotenough on December 23, 2008 at 11:15 PM
Those evil corporations own the salt companies.
Johan Klaus on December 23, 2008 at 11:40 PM
A buddy made a good point: Seattle may not have thought to buy any salt, and are using the “environment” to cover their A$$es
gmoonster on December 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM
I’m west of Chicago – and can confirm that the one thing Chicago politicians know is that the roads gotta get plowed. Google “Bilandic Snow Byrne”…
Local city gov’t bought salt when it was bloody expensive, so are using it sparingly, and mixing it with beet juice. Yes, I’m serious – Google it yourself.
Mew
acat on December 24, 2008 at 12:18 AM
It’s sad because it is misinformed. Michelle is more hysterical than Ed, however. The Dubai Ports deal was a good one for the US but she went nuts over the security implications (Arabs in our ports!!!) even thought there weren’t any.
The country does not need ideologues now.
lexhamfox on December 24, 2008 at 12:39 AM
Now this is an environmental outrage!!!
From the Christmas Eve edition of the Telegraph:
Inquiry into US plastic surgeon who ‘used fat from clients to run car’
US authorities are investigating a Beverly Hills cosmetic surgeon who claims that he used fat he removed from patients in liposuction operations to power his “green” four-wheel-drive car.
lexhamfox on December 24, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Here in Michigan, most of the county and city governments have cut back on salting because of budget issues (not sure why it’s an issue, Detroit is built over a huge salt deposit left by the receding seas eons ago, but even cheap still is money). Still, we’ve gotten three measurable snowfalls since last week (10″, 4″ and another 4-6″ today plus freezing rain) and the roads are more or less clear without any extraordinary number of accidents than after any snowfall.
BTW, salt only works down to single digit temperatures. Below that it’s not effective so it’s just about plowing.
I just wish my city would use auger fed blowers that fill trailers like in Toronto instead of depositing a plow berm in my driveway every time they plow.
Those of us in the Midwest laugh at the fools in Seattle. Of course the folks posting here from the Soo area really get snow. The fire hydrants up there have attached 10′ long red poles so the fire department can find them.
Also, cars don’t rust as much anymore, regardless of aspersions cast on the Detroit automakers. You can still see 70s and 80s vintage American iron around here but all the Japanese cars of that vintage have long since turned to iron oxide alloy. Modern cars, with electrodip primer and galvanized sheet metal, hardly ever have perforation rust anymore. That’s one problem Detroit faces, cars last 10 or more years and 200,000 miles these days.
rokemronnie on December 24, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Their Detroit bashing gets monotonous and plenty of that is contrary to normative conservative thought. Example: wage and price controls are bad except when its US autoworkers being told by the gov’t that they make too much money (and, no, I’m not a fan of unions but the truth is the truth).
Hell, The Truth About Cars is a site that is hardly friendly to Detroit but they at least allow an occasional post debunking some of the BS flying about the domestic auto industry. Ed and Michelle would never allow something like that to be posted as an article here.
rokemronnie on December 24, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Err… so may we take it that the roads in Seattle are not spec’ed to the same levels as those in the rest of the state ?
If corrosion were such a big deal(salinity of rainwater ?), they would have all ready treated it with sealants, which means they could use road salt with impunity.
That ‘explanation’ is simply… silly… perhaps the plan is to divert some of that sunshine that is being piped.
No, that’s not it. The quality of posters goes down every time they open registration in elgeneralisimo’s not so humble opinion.
BTW, if anyone had taken the time to read the first link posted and possess moderate reading comprehension skills they would have noted the following…
elgeneralisimo on December 24, 2008 at 1:07 AM
Not true – it rains up here here year round (a lot, you might have noticed) so there’s no corrosion problem due to the dilution.
That’s why even though we live next to a salt water estuary
cars don’t have corrosion problems here.
kcewa on December 24, 2008 at 1:27 AM
Sorry Ed, nothing personal, but I find it ironic hat someone from a state soon to be represented by Franken has the balls to criticize any other state for it’s wacky behavior.
csdeven on December 24, 2008 at 1:37 AM
I’ve lived in Chicago and I live in Seattle. Chicago salts the hell out of their roads and they are always passable. Because of this, you have to underbody protective coatings for your car, like Zeibart, or it will rust away in a few years.
this is the first winter I am in Seattle having lived in the south King Co. suburbs. Never had much a problem in the burbs driving when it is icy. They lay down a mixture of sand and salt to help clear the roads. West Seattle has been a nightmare. Lots of sliding and skidding. I finally went out and bought new tires today because they are not taking care of the roads. Very little plowing. The business district in West Seattle, the Alaska Junction, is like an ice rink. It is terrible. Puget Sound is a salt water body. I would bet it can take some more salt runoff.
This is what happens when liberals try to manage a crisis.
Mallard T. Drake on December 24, 2008 at 3:29 AM
I live in Lane Co. in Oregon, where salt isn’t used, either. There is a solution sprayed on the roads which provides better traction in icy conditions. Sand and gravel are usually in “liberal” use here as well. I infrequently use salt on my rural 7 1/2% grade gravel rural driveway, but have no use for eastern sentiments about what is proper for this moderate climate, which is about the same as Seattle’s. If they want to stay on roads that are salt-licks and drive like maniacs-go back home, and watch their cars dissolve.
trl on December 24, 2008 at 5:44 AM
Sorry, Seattle but we here in Minnesota know a bit more than you about snow and ice removal and about keeping our drivers safe! We also have a beautiful environment that we care about with large lakes here in the cities. If you are going to follow these policies, be prepared to suffer people dying and ending up with life changing injuries just so you can feel good about protecting “mother earth”! We believe people are more important! You obviously have your priorities way screwed up!
sabbott on December 24, 2008 at 7:09 AM
My first exposure to the environmental movement was as a teenager back in the 60’s. Then it was all over TV, every other commercial break, pictures of smog and industrial smoke being pumped into the atmosphere, and all sorts of pollution being dumped into pristine lakes and streams. Then there was Iron-Eyes Cody, the Italian Indian, shedding a tear while sitting in his canoe.
Well, everybody wanted clean air and water, and we still do. The point I’m trying to make is how the environmental movement in this country went from a simple “Let’s clean up the air and water” to a full-blown tyrant – telling people how to live, what to drive and how far, what kind of light bulbs for your house, what to eat, and on and on. And now this crusade is endangering lives in order to save the planet. This crusade is preaching that humans are the real “pollution” to the planet. We have become so arrogant we sincerely believe we can turn the planet’s weather more to our liking. Well, God brought down the Tower of Babel for reasons of arrogance, and He can do the same thing to the global warming scam artists too.
Back in the 60’s we only had the liberal media’s take on pollution. At least now we have the news sites and blogs where we can get the other side and weigh out the truth.
abcurtis on December 24, 2008 at 7:50 AM
And the salt companies are owned by Evil Genius(es) Dick Chaney and Karl Rove.
abcurtis on December 24, 2008 at 7:56 AM
Puget SOund
Isn’t that salt water?
…
Paul Murphy on December 24, 2008 at 9:26 AM
So the city[of Seattle]’s approach is to encourage people to buy and drive SUV’s, which consume twice as much gasoline per mile as smaller cars. Won’t that increase emissions of carbon dioxide, as well as real pollutants like carbon MONoxide and nitrous oxides into their precious fresh air?
They also want people putting chains on their front tires for driving in snow and ice? Has anyone figured out how long it takes the average person to put chains on four tires trying to get to work in the morning, and to take them back off again once the snow melts?
Tire chains might be a necessary evil in mountainous areas that get tens of feet of snow per year. In urban areas with lots of traffic and a thin, temporary coating of ice or snow, they will beat lots of cracks into the road, and after rainwater seeps in, with lots of freezing/thawing cycles grow into numerous potholes, which can cause axle damage and traffic delays when construction companies fix them.
What’s wrong with letting a little salt run into an already salty Puget Sound?
I’ll take my icy roads with a grain of salt, rather than face bigger headaches down the road.
Steve Z on December 24, 2008 at 9:58 AM
When I was stationed in Fort Lewis a few years ago I got a chance to see what 2 inches of snow does to these weird northwest parts:
Snow cripples the northwest.
leetpriest on December 24, 2008 at 10:34 AM
My husband works for one of the county road departments here in WA state. Luckily, we are on the opposite side from Seattle. The county uses a grave/sand mixture. About 12 yards sand to 1/2 to 1 yard of salt. He said he wishes they would use 100% salt like the sate does. Works better.
StephC on December 24, 2008 at 10:45 AM
At least they are making their priorities known to those who think clearly.
Vashta.Nerada on December 24, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Lee, no. Snow cripples the Californiac’s who move up and have no clue how to drive on “slick surfaces”. I did fine when it snowed in Seattle area, but then I have been driving on snow most of my life. Unlike those idiots, who would drive like a bat out of hell, even when raining and then wonder why they were in a accident on the side of the road.
upinak on December 24, 2008 at 11:57 AM
Well it’s nice to see that SOMEONE is making sure that salt doesn’t wind up in ocean water! Next up – making sure that our rain is 100% water-free!
Brilliant!
commenter on December 24, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Keep the salt out of the ocean and the carbon dioxide out of the air.
Jim Treacher on December 24, 2008 at 12:45 PM
The fact of the matter is that the Seattle area doesn’t see much snow so they aren’t going to budget much for it. The runoff excuse covers their ass and gives them their “green” cred.
kongzilla on December 24, 2008 at 12:57 PM
The Truth.
When people are paid NOT to work for years on end, there’s something seriously wrong.
I’ve previously told my stories about why I no longer buy American cars, but here’s an even more interesting one about why I drive a Mazda 3 rather than a Mazda 6. I go into the dealer, and tell the fleet manager I’d like to factory order (I always factory order) a Mazda 6. The guy says I have a Mazda 6 which exactly meets your specs right now on my lot, but No You Don’t Want A Mazda 6, you want a Mazda 3. I say Why? He says one out of every three Mazda 6’s he’s sold have been unhappy customer experiences, because each Mazda 6 brought back spends several weeks in the shop getting rebuilt to work properly. He has had No Problems With The Mazda 3 At All. I ask what the difference is between the vehicles — was the Mazda 6 badly designed or something? His response is that while the Mazda 3 is built in Hiroshima, the Mazda 6 is built in a Ford factory in Flat Rock, MI, by Union workers, and those workers are Just Not Capable of Delivering Quality. Given my experience with my strike-bound Ford Taurus, I immediately understood what the sales guy was saying. I ordered the Mazda 3 (which he did not have on the lot), and have been happily ever after.
Yes, I do think the guys at the Ford factory are overpaid, and by extension the guys at GM and Chrysler too. Wages are just one component in the price I pay for a car, and it’s an important one. If I could get the same quality of work from those overpaid union guys, I’d probably look the other way and even Buy American, but those guys in Hiroshima have something in their blood that the guys in Flat Rock, Michigan, don’t, and, until they figure out what it is and gene-splice it into the UAW guys at Flat Rock, I’m not about to approve using my tax dollars to guarantee the Flat Rock boys their jobs.
unclesmrgol on December 24, 2008 at 2:19 PM
I’ll drink to that with my alcohol-free, light beer!
Anyone for a fat-free Christmas cookie?
taznar on December 24, 2008 at 2:54 PM
And yet the roads in MN and other states that use salt have managed not to disintegrate overnight. Salt does wash away- it’s not an “unstoppable” force of some sort.
Salt does tend to corrode vehicles in the long term, but that’s after very frequent and heavy use of salt. For the relatively few times Seattle gets measureable snowfall? Hardly an issue.
Better a car that rusts in 10 years than one wrecked in a crash after driving on icy roads.
Hollowpoint on December 24, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Oh bother….
This isn’t about being green vrs public safety, this is about the cities in the NW not wasting money on clearing snow that usually melts before the plows can finish clearing the main thoroughfares and morons who can’t figure how to get their Escalades into 4-wheel-drive thinking that they can drive safely on ice because Santa does it so well.
Seriously the NW gets snow like this once every 30 years or so. Here in Portland we have maybe a few inches of snow for a week once a year, usually it melts faster than it hits. It makes no sense for the city to invest in massive snow clearing equipment and deicing for the amount of snow we get. If people were smart and either stayed home, used public transport, or chained up it would be fine. The accidents are caused by morons who insist on going out in the weather. It is not the city government’s business to protect the local losers from their own bad driving and poor judgement.
If we had snow for weeks on end every year then sure, it would make sense to clear it. I agree with whoever above said that the “green” thing is mostly a cover to keep the perpetual whiners from whining that they can’t get their hybrid tin can out of the garage.
darcee on December 25, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Ditto on the “Isn’t Puget Sound already salt water” remark.
Oh-oh-oh it’s not organically grown salt. Or-or it’s not free range salt. It’s that evil non kosher salt. Why we can’t expose those meat eating killer whales to just plain ordinary evil salt!
jaaakemm on December 25, 2008 at 3:38 PM
How do you define “Huge” and “unstoppable corrosion” Can you reference any scientific studies to back your assertions?
diogenes on December 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Maybe next time instead of asking people to stay home, they’ll enforce it and prove what a nanny state they really are.
4shoes on December 25, 2008 at 11:54 PM
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