Happy Festivus, the atheist holiday
posted at 1:11 pm on December 23, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Yes, granted, it hasn’t traditionally been limited to nonbelievers. Still: It’s a holiday about nothing popularized by a show about nothing and created explicitly out of antipathy to Christmas. Toss in a rule about celebrating it in French and you’d have perfect existential despair. Even the aluminum pole — unadorned, unsentimental, but unbowed — makes for a fine skeptic symbol. I’m going to e-mail Hitchens and Dawkins and urge them to stake a claim “for the rest of us.” Expect a joint press release shortly.
While the stories of Festivus-inspired laughs are vast — like the woman from Kansas City whose Festivus feats of strength include thumb-wrestling, and the Festivus Pole lot in Wisconsin where the poles are sold like Christmas trees — it has inspired some criticism from pundits who fear it is taking away from traditional religion-based celebrations like Christmas.
”It is odd to me that Festivus would be a part of that debate, because the No. 1 reason this holiday has caught on is that it isn’t exclusive,” Salkin says. “It’s not religious. Festivus means nothing. And something that means nothing is very useful because everyone can agree on it. It excludes no one. It’s the joke that everyone’s in on.”
Today being the day, I’m inclined to take the rest of it off and proceed to the gym for the Feats of Strength, to be followed later by the boss’s Airing of Grievances about why I’m not at work. Celebrants/Seinfeld fans may, if they wish, air their own grievances below; “there’s too much atheist content on the site” has already been duly noted and logged. My own grievance: Did you know there’s not a single copy of Mario Kart Wii available for purchase at a major American chain right now? If you want it under the tree (er, pole), be prepared to be gouged with a 40 percent mark-up by small dealers.
Exit question: According to the episode, Festivus doesn’t end until the head of the household is pinned. Does that mean the holiday must be celebrated with others or, more strictly, that it must be celebrated with family, in which case singles are ineligible? A fine point of theology. Or atheology, as it were.
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Festivus is not a phoney holiday created by the TV show Seinfeld, it was first celebrated in 1966 by Dan O’Keefe and his family, whose son later became a writer for the Seinfeld TV program.
Most likely it was a Catholic that created Festivus, not as an alternative to Christmas, but as an auxillary reason to have fun.
keep the change on December 23, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Hey! This is the time of year when I catch up on all that tithing ;D
Tithing at Best Buy is an addiction actually, perhaps I need an intervention?
Geministorm on December 23, 2008 at 2:21 PM
atheists are so pathetically narcissistic.
As opposed to Christians who think they are the only ones allowed into heaven?
RWLA on December 23, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Actually, Festivus is only a year younger than Kwanzaa. It just has not been actively practiced until it became a mini-media sensation. Again, much like Kwanzaa.
Most holidays/observances/messiahs don’t get the star treatment and mainstream exposure until the media gets around to promoting them. As was mentioned in an earlier thread, even Jesus had to trash a Temple, Pete Townsend hotel room style, to get attention. It’s all about the marketing.
grdred944 on December 23, 2008 at 2:22 PM
That makes me like it even more!
herrevery on December 23, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Seriously enough, Madison, I will reply “Merry Christmas” to you. I will wish for you- everyone here- a good holiday, whatever your faith. I’m really that way. What I am fed up with is someone trying to tell me I’m a bad man because I don’t share their outlook on religion. OhEssYouCowboys set me off because he has no idea what I’ve been through this year, nor what I’ve done for other people. But yet, I’m a hedonist and a narcissist because I can’t discern the “one true G-d”. Folks, really, if I want to be a Christian, I will seek you out. I know where to find you.
BillH on December 23, 2008 at 2:23 PM
LOL
Surprisingly he’s not….though, considering his love of philosophy, he’s a perfect candidate for it. Though, perhaps that’s the difference between a love of pseudo-philosophy (a.k.a. intellectual curiosity) and and love of real philosophy (the kind that reads like a mathematical equation and makes a person’s head explode). He’s into the latter and has the fluency in Latin and Ancient Greek to go along with it.
More than anything I think he’s still a bit shaken by the accident and just doesn’t want to deal with it. It was one of those accidents that was fairly horrific and yet everyone walked away without a scratch. He was (mistakenly) under the impression that as long as he was a safe and attentive driver he’d be able to avoid accidents on the road. In this case, he did everything absolutely right and still ended up in a 4 car pile up. I think he’s lost a sense of control and just doesn’t want to deal. I, however, always feel like I’m in mortal danger when driving on L.A. freeways, so I’m much less traumatized be the whole thing.
That’s why I’m venting on a Festivus thread and handling the insurance for him instead of telling him to suck it up and handle his business. :)
JadeNYU on December 23, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Good effort, but probably not inclusive enough. I believe it should be
Happy HannaRamaKwanzFestiMas. And I mean that.
Mr. D on December 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM
OF COURSE Festivus has to be celebrated strictly. Otherwise, you’re just making a mockery of the whole holiday.
logis on December 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM
For the believers and non-believers alike, this is a very interesting story befitting the season:
Saved by an Angel?
Liberty or Death on December 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Well, out of respect for Allah, maybe you should just post a link next time.
I prefer the commercialization. It’s good for the economy.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Sorry, was attempting to make a joke and hearing the whole story makes me look the fool. I’m sorry. I would never wish harm in a physical way to ANYONE, even a Liberal. I always talk about “killing them” and “destroying them” in ONLY the political arena. I’m glad you roomate is ok.
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Heh, you’re funny Geministorm…I enjoy your posts.
Liberty or Death on December 23, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Here’s my Airing of Grievances:
HA readers/commentators that don’t want the government to control their lives and tell them what to think. But when AP puts up a funny thread, about Festivus all those ‘true’ Conservative Republicans come out of the wood works and start complaining about the ‘Heathen’ holiday.
Loosen up people, you’ll get your Christmas threads on the 24th and the 25h.
Lance Murdock on December 23, 2008 at 2:28 PM
The family on Seinfeld that celebrates Festivus really should be celebrating Hanukkah. Where is the Jewish outrage?
herrevery on December 23, 2008 at 2:31 PM
The Rabid Atheists and the Rabid Christians don’t realize that they are cut from the same revolting cloth.
Enough Grievance for now.
Every day is Festivus at your local strip joint. Enjoy!!
hillbillyjim on December 23, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Tell him that but for his attentiveness and skilled driving it would have been a great deal worse.
Try driving from LA to Long Beach on the 710. It’s bumper to bumper at 70 mph plus, with the remnants of crashes all over the place. One Friday, I was scared to death and said this is it – no mas. The following Sunday, there was a 200 car pile up with fatalities due to fog. People just didn’t want to slow down.
Blake on December 23, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Appreciated. I’m here if you want and here even if you don’t. I try to stay away, really.
That said, I will likewise wish you a Merry Christmas. Ignore people like OhEssYouCowboys. We have a few of them here, but you can’t let them get to you.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Thanks! Yeah, I’m still a Catholic…and as you know, at least Catholics don’t throw scripture around as a weapon of judgment. That’s God’s job.
JetBoy on December 23, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I didn’t, I’m having FUN with this in the “spirit” it was intended.
And I’m as HARD CORE, FAR RIGHT, RACIST, BIGOT, CONSERVATIVE, TIN FOIL HAT WEARING, BIRTHER as they have…
So not EVERY ONE of us Christians has zero humor or tolerance. Blanket statments often times don’t apply.
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:33 PM
God doesn’t send anyone anywhere Allah. It’s all about free will.
I personally see Atheism like I see the anti-war moonbats. It’s not enough to “not believe in God”, but Atheism must actively dispute the existence of God in the hope that God does not exist so they can be “right”…just like the moonbats hoped that we would lose the war. The sad part is, believers only want everyone to share in the bounty of God (like those who supported the war wanted freedom for the Iraqis and success for our troops). As I see it, Aetheist “hope” there is no God, merely so that they can be “right”, and not really for any other reason. If that were the case,if there was a reason for non-belief, there would be no need for the vitiol they have towards believers (or faith-mongers…in keeping with the moonbat/war theme).
Atheism does nothing to diminish my faith, why should my faith do anything to diminish Atheism. Why must Atheists seek to diminish my faith to validate theirs. That is something I never understood.
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 2:33 PM
In all seriousness, I really think that Charles Schulz created one of the best explanations of Christmas for modern Americans.
Linus is a better role model than a lot of the folks on the internet who so vocally claim to know how we should celebrate the season.
Y-not on December 23, 2008 at 2:34 PM
I don’t think Constanza is Jewish.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:34 PM
The actors are, but Frank is supposed to be Italian (and Estelle is Jewish).
Y-not on December 23, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth … shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
OhEssYouCowboys on December 23, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Even though everyone that played the Costanza’s on TV are Jewish, the last name is Italian. Hence, not Jewish. No outrage here.
Lance Murdock on December 23, 2008 at 2:36 PM
I love you Allahpundit. Never leave HotAir.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Maybe, the show never gives an answer to that question.
Lance Murdock on December 23, 2008 at 2:37 PM
I was under the impression that they were a half-Jewish family. In the episode where Elaine become irresistible to Jewish men, doesn’t George fall for her as well? (Not that any of this really matters.)
herrevery on December 23, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Jesus so dearly loves me that he’s willing to let me freely choose, in my fallibly ignorant human way, to shun him and go to hell rather than to intervene and lift the scales from my eyes so that I can appreciate his glory?
He must really respect free will, I’ll say that for him. Although we already know that, per the entire history of the 20th century.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 2:39 PM
fify, in the spirit of Seinfeld. ;-)
Y-not on December 23, 2008 at 2:39 PM
+ infinity
JetBoy on December 23, 2008 at 2:39 PM
nice one! :)
herrevery on December 23, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Yeah, listen: I’ve asked you once nicely not to spam the thread with Bible verse. Anyone who’s interested will find the King James right here. This isn’t a bulletin board.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 2:41 PM
In other news, The Spirit is coming out in a couple of days. Frank Miller is a strong conservative and I love his work too (bonus)! I only hope that The Watchmen will be done true to the graphic novel.
I think the Festivus thread should turn into a holiday wish list for the HA readers/commenters…
Geministorm on December 23, 2008 at 2:41 PM
No apologies necessary. Even if the comment had been made after the full story. I make fun of him and I was there for the event itself. Accidents happen (especially on the 405).
Besides, I’m just being kind to him on this one….he also won’t return something at a restaurant if they give him the completely wrong thing (think – he ordered the chicken salad and they gave him the fish tacos). He’s got a big “I just don’t wanna deal with the hassle streak” that’s nice at times but, can be a bit of a hassle when you’ve got to pick up his slack. :)
Definitely! Thanks to his safe driving and quick reactions, he kept us from hitting the car in front of us even with 3 other cars pushing us. Got it all stopped with a foot to spare which was good because the woman in front of us had gotten out of her car in the fast lane on the 405 to check on her flat tire.
I’m lucky to live an work in the same town here. I couldn’t imagine dealing with a daily commute of any distance in LA. Especially in the rainy season. I love the good folks of L.A., but they really have no idea how to drive in the rain. They either drive 5mph because they’re totally freaked out or they drive 90mph to prove that they aren’t affected by the rain. It’s insane!
JadeNYU on December 23, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Surely you know God doesn’t send anyone to hell but rather gives people the option. Eternity with or without God.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:42 PM
/ zero
MadisonConservative on December 23, 2008 at 2:43 PM
WE HAVE A WIINER !
+100
I knew I really liked this guy deep down, just still have issues with some of his positions, but this on is one I can give the:
ManlyRash seal of approval!~
ROFL! Wow, too much eggnog ?
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:43 PM
+ infinity +1
Lance Murdock on December 23, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Is that seal of approval given in MR’s honor or are you the ghost of ManlyRashes past?
JadeNYU on December 23, 2008 at 2:46 PM
Cheater.
Jaibones on December 23, 2008 at 2:46 PM
FRANK COSTANZA: Kramer, I got your message. I haven’t celebrated Festivus in years! What is your interest?
KRAMER: Well, just tell me everything, huh?
FRANK: Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reach for the last one they had – but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way!
KRAMER: What happened to the doll?
FRANK: It was destroyed. But out of that, a new holiday was born. “A Festivus for the rest of us!”
KRAMER: That musta been some kind of doll.
FRANK: She was.
bryan2369 on December 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM
I’ve also got an issue with Pepsi places that don’t have Mountain Dew on tap.
I realize they’re not one and the same, but, to me, the only benefit of eating at a place that serves Pepsi is the chance to get some fountain fresh Mountain Dew.
When they take that spot and give it to something like iced tea or a fruit-flavored drink, they make the angels cry.
JadeNYU on December 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM
In honor and respect, both for Manly and Allah…
Both men I respect, though one I tend to agree with more often… I’ll let you guess which one that is by my other thread posts.
:)
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Yes, of course. And what is life without free will? Would you want to be forced into worshiping God, like a dictator?
You don’t see to want that here in this life. Why would you want it in the next life?
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Hey Allah,
Here is a Christmas present for you. Go buy a pole and attach a picture of Kristen Powers face to the top of it and imagine the rest. Merry Christmas!
cjs1943 on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
I didn’t think so, but I’m not a Seinfeld expert. I’m sure we have several here.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Eh, as long as you have pets or something, I think you’re in the clear.
Of course whether you or the pets are the head of household is entirely up for debate. I suspect cats might be more accepting of being pinned than, say, a rottweiler.
Tanya on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Jesus is cool like that. And there’s enough out there for the scales to be lifted if you want them to, but it’s up to you, not Him.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Yes, but it’s silly to give them the option, especially in light of Christian belief about how imperfect people are. Maybe Hitchens and I can’t appreciate Christ because of some random quirk in our psychology; according to Christians, if I understand them correctly, he and I are suffering for that right now because we don’t know the joy of accepting Christ into hearts. And yet, that’s not punishment enough: Rather than lift the scales from our eyes after death and forgive us our ignorance after we die, God’s going to respect our “choice” and consign us to eternal desolation. He’s a stickler, I guess.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
I think owl pellets from Think Geek would be the perfect stocking stuffers (why not stockings? they hang from poles!) for a holiday that celebrates bitching and moaning.
chunderroad on December 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Is this thread closed or did my comment just disappear?
chunderroad on December 23, 2008 at 2:50 PM
Yuo, I guess Jesus is the antithesis of the Nanny state.
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 2:51 PM
I have a funny feeling that if the Christian holiday of Christmas went underground, the pagan Festival of Lights would take its rightful place as the Religious Holiday/Commercial Orgy of the Winter Solstice.
Jaibones on December 23, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Oh, there it is. Never mind.
chunderroad on December 23, 2008 at 2:51 PM
I’ll start (but this is my Christmas wish list):
1. Fallout 3 – for the PC, not the Xbox 360.
2. Blackberry Storm – that clicky screen makes me crazy with technolust.
3. Rock Band 2 – I didn’t realize I had a rock-n-roll fantasy until I got the game.
4. A gaming chair for driving Forza 2 – everything I have is uncomfortable after awhile.
5. A job for the wife, paying at least her previous salary and job satisfaction, ethics and happiness.
6. A shoulder operation – so I can start playing tennis again (got this nasty double rotator cuff tear that ended my pro tennis aspirations 20 years ago, now I just want to play recreationally)
7. New tennis gear – I’m fatter now!
8. To lose 30 lbs o’goo – I swear, its being a dad. After the wife got pregnant with the first was when I started packing on the weight.
9. For my lawn to be re-sodded – TS Fay did a number on it, now its incurable.
Next!
Geministorm on December 23, 2008 at 2:51 PM
I’ll second that grievance.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Sound like “An offer you can’t refuse”.
the_nile on December 23, 2008 at 2:52 PM
You
twofour have that in common. (Ooh, just caught myself, there…)Jaibones on December 23, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Rightwinged, you’re being paged, I believe.
hillbillyjim on December 23, 2008 at 2:53 PM
I posted too early, there’s more:
(Frank is still telling Kramer about Festivus)
FRANK: And at the Festivus dinner, you gather your family around, and you tell them all the ways they have disappointed you over the past year.
KRAMER: Is there a tree?
FRANK: No. Instead, there’s a pole. It requires no decoration. I find tinsel distracting.
KRAMER: Frank, this new holiday of yours is scratching me right where I itch.
FRANK: Let’s do it then! Festivus is back! I’ll get the pole out of the crawl space.
And the best quote of the show (in my humble opinion):
GEORGE: Oh, come on! Be sensible.
FRANK: Stop crying and fight your father!
bryan2369 on December 23, 2008 at 2:54 PM
They seek to control others.
wise_man on December 23, 2008 at 2:54 PM
That’s one way to look at it. The thing is, re: “free will,” no one’s will is freer than God’s. The supreme being, all powerful, literally can do anything he wants, including forgiving people whose disbelief or sinful actions would otherwise land them in hell. But he doesn’t, or so believers say/hope.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Heh.
Jaibones on December 23, 2008 at 2:54 PM
There’s plenty of debate over whether or not the trip to hell is eternal. But that aside, don’t you appreciate that the choice is left to you?
And what would be the point of God delivering a weekly radio address to everyone? If that were the case we’d all just start out in heaven.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 2:55 PM
1) To wake up and it’s NOT Nov 4th yet (election do-over)
2) New keyboard for World of Warcraft, wore the old one out, rubbed off several keys, and NOT from porn…
3) Continued good health
4) Saftey and Peace for our wonderful Military
5) An awakening of values and morals in America again
6) Osama’s head on a platter
7) A good Conservative girlfriend for my 16 year old Son
8) Another 50 years with my wonderful Wife of 24 years
9) Another great year of Hot Air
Next!
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Yeah, this is why I’ve always thought that when you die, the scales DO fall from your eyes and that’s when you finally choose. Those of us who already chose Jesus during our lives have more to bring to Him – faith, worship, any good works – but there are many, I’m sure, who will come to Him at the end.
As a kid I read a Jehovah’s Witness piece that said nonbelievers wouldn’t be subjected to an eternity of torture, that God would never be that cruel. Instead God would blink them out of existence. That, while awful in itself, made more sense to me. I can’t see God allowing us to head for an eternity of horrible torment when we have no real concept of what eternity is, let alone how awful the torment could be. I really can’t.
Happy Festivus, Allah! May your Feats of Strength be many and mighty!
Rosmerta on December 23, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Happy Festivus to everyone
I throw a Festivus party nearly every year..it’s just a lark..no real meaning at all except for good friends getting together and having a laugh
I’m Jewish..most of my friends aren’t and never has anyone ever said anything about any religous implications
those who think otherwise need to get a life.
galtg on December 23, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Hey, you know the deal. Why would you want God not to “be a stickler”. There are no “do-overs” in eternity…You get to choose now, before you die…and accept the consequences of that choice. Do you think everyone should get to rewrite their mortgages now that their choice to enter into bad loans didn’t pan out the way they believed it would?
You and Hitchens are no different than any other person on this earth. We all have the same opportunity to know God. There are many paths to God and away from Him. We all have that freedom of choice. We all choose our path.
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 2:58 PM
If he didn’t, he wouldn’t truly respect your freedom, would he?
I mean heaven isn’t described the way most people imagine. It’s mostly a really, really long church service. People just sit around worshiping God all day long. So if you can’t see any reason to do that now, what makes you think you’d change your mind after you die?
I’m sorry, but I really don’t get how this is cruel. The only alternative is to turn is into to robots who have no capacity for thought outside of what God allows in us. If we don’t have the capacity for hating God, then we don’t truly have the capacity for loving him either, and that’s where the joy of accepting Christ comes from. You wouldn’t have it if you were forced into accepting Christ.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Is that really a “choice”? Sounds like the islamists forcing hostages converting to islam or die.
Promise your believers heaven may be nice , but the non believers hell just ain’t sympathetic. It’s sounds like UAW…
the_nile on December 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
The problem I always encounter is that supposedly he’s all-powerful, all-knowing, unlimited…yet his master creation is a race full of flaws and imperfections, which not only leads many of them to completely disregard him, but others to split up into countless factions arguing over exactly what he’s trying to say.
Response? “Well, you don’t want him to run your life for you, do you?”
The aversion to that is based on the history of being ruled by flawed human beings. Assuming he’s truly perfect, I would have no problem living a perfect life ruled by a perfect leader. So what’s the problem? Gumdrops and rainbows and happiness and completely whitened teeth for all time? Bring it on!
MadisonConservative on December 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Dont forget to donate to The Human Fund (Money for People!)
bryan2369 on December 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Well, if God is an equal rights under His law type of Guy, which I suspect He would be, then everyone has to play by His rules and no exceptions. You wouldn’t want someone to get a free seat at the table if they completely ignored the rules would you? The whole system breaks down then. You might as well not have any rules…
I’m no expert, but if I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, would that make a difference (did you see that I incorporated “holiday” into that? Huh, didja’?)
Geministorm on December 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Me too. But I don’t think awful is the right word for it. When you think about what it means you’re missing out on, yes it’s awful. But it’s really what atheists think happens to all of us anyways, so I don’t think they’d mind.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Oh yeah, time to air my grievances!
- Badly planned restrooms (bottlenecks at the towel dispenser, no hooks for coats, etc.)
- Ugly modern churches and uglier modern church music
- Having to get 40 cable channels I don’t want for every channel I do
- Still no flying cars!!
Rosmerta on December 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
There’s no “sending,” you choose a door of your liking. No one is forcing no one to knock on that door to enter. Nothing silly about free will, Allah. If people believe there’s something greater than man alone, then so be it. Hope is much better to look forward to than no hope at all.
Kokonut on December 23, 2008 at 3:04 PM
To give credit where credit is due, I got the quotes from http://www.festivusweb.com/index.htm
And remember: Festivus Yes! Bagels No!
bryan2369 on December 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Hope? That’s a little morbid. But the thing is, were God to do that, it would completely invalidate your free will. And then what’s the point of anything? Why even be alive if all you are is a puppet to some being you’re forced to worship just because he’s more powerful than you are.
I can’t imagine that this is what people really want religion to be.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Of course, Jesus respects free will. Otherwise there is no point to living. The 20th c. illustrates the limitations of a concept of unlimited free will as denial of grace.
As for hell, my favorite writings on the subject were by Swedenborg: After Death Man is Possessed of Every Sense, and of All the Memory, Except His Earthly Body.
chunderroad on December 23, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Yes it’s a choice. Every choice you make, every day, has its consequences. There are pros and cons to every decision you make. This one is no different, it just has bigger pros and cons. But ultimately, the choice is yours. I think that’s a good thing.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Eh, that’s not really true. A Christian friend of mine was lamenting to me a few days ago how she has plenty of other friends who have been praying to God to make them believers, and yet … they just don’t feel anything. There’s no presence. Likewise, there are of course some cultures where the people have no access to Christianity so they can’t be saved.
Because if you believe (a) that God is all-loving, (b) all-forgiving, and (c) that Christian salvation is the greatest happiness a soul can know, it’s perverse to think that he’d acquiesce in people “choosing” hell. The whole point of Christianity is that humans are fallible and will make mistakes. So all sorts of people make all sorts of mistakes — including the mistake of disbelief — and the all-loving, all-forgiving God turns his back on them forever? Doesn’t add up.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Well, we have to disagree there. God’s “free will” does not include making people believe in Him to ensure salvation (in Christianity). Why should God forgive us our sins when we fail to acknowledge them and take the steps necessary to gain His good grace?
That’s like saying you should be able to treat your wife like dirt. Cheat on her, disregard her, belittle her, but expect her to forgive you for everything, because she’s just “good” like that. You know what you have to do to stay in your wife’s good graces and you have the choice to do what it takes or not. But to dismiss her because she doesn’t forgive all your sins in the end is kind of absurd don’t you think? Why should anyone expect God to put up with all our BS when we have all the information we need to stay in his good graces? That’s a very immature thought process.
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 3:07 PM
This statement is objectively false.
No, the peasant in the famine-stricken fields of the prison state of North Korea does not have this chance. Ever. They know nothing except eating tree bark or clay, having no outside information giving to them – EVER – other than the information fed to them from their totalitarian government, which treaches worship of the Dear Leader and his dead father and the Korean Worker’s Party as the “god,” and they do not know what the Bible is, who Jesus is, who the Western version of God is, or anything else except for a combination of propaganda and starvation pains. Then they die after their likely short, brutal lives.
And as such, they’re probably facing eternal damnation from the God who can do all things but somehow or other can’t save “sinners” who didn’t know who he/she/it even was from everlasting “hellfire.”
Good Lt on December 23, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Not all Christians believe that salvation is an issue of free will. Just thought I’d toss that out there.
Back on topic -
Please make all checks to the Human Fund out to me. Thanks!
herrevery on December 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
“Perfection” would mean that man wouldn’t be given free will and are at the whims of God’s every command and man cannot and are unable to think for themselves. Reminds me of Hitler taking control.
Kokonut on December 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Allahpundit, your threads on NFL topics are missed!! I was hoping you would comment on the season, being a Jets Fan yourself (I think).
Being the avid reader that you are, you may enjoy the writings of this philosopher. He is deep, but clear and readable.
I think this book may be most relevant to your comment above.
The philosophical tension and logical incompatibility of free will and atheistic naturalism has been a recurring theme in philosophy for a long time.
In short, if one believes in the existence of free will, then one is not, nor cannot be, an atheistic naturalist.
Thank you for letting me share my .02.
Friends, have a good holiday and an excellent season to all!!
ColtsFan on December 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Aren’t we doing that now? Oh wait, that’s The Humans at the Trough Fund (Money for Deadbeats, Crooks and Anybody Else Who Gets a Bailout)
Mr_Magoo on December 23, 2008 at 3:10 PM
I think you’re describing heaven.
BadgerHawk on December 23, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Exactly. Some of you guys are arguing that “well, free will beats living in a dictatorship.” Er, no, not in this case. If memory serves, no less than Friedrich Hayek argued in the Road to Serfdom that in a perfect world a benevolent dictatorship is the optimal system of governance, but since a perfect world is impossible, we can never risk it. With God, a perfect world is possible, though. So what’s the problem? Using the free will defense in these circumstances seems to me to be Christians’ way of letting God off the hook not only for evil in the world, but for letting people “choose” to go to hell. If he really is omnipotent, he doesn’t have to do anything of the sort.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 3:11 PM
RWLA said:
This isn’t a matter of “narcissism”. Do you even know what that word means?
This is a matter of the reality of truth. Repent and trust God to forgive your sins and He will let you live with Him forever. If you don’t repent then you must go to Hell where such people belong.
TheMightyQuinn on December 23, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Actualy, I think that’s the new Messiah BHO’s administration
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Really? That sounds like something you’d want?
According to the Bible, it’s what humanity had initially. That’s what the Garden of Eden was. But God gave them the option of either continuing to live that way or actually bringing free will into the world.
Despite what a paradise they were in, they chose the latter.
I’ve always felt I would have as well.
Descartes said, “I doubt therefore I am,” implying that without that ability, how do you truly know you life is anything other than a dream? Well, how would you?
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Your premise is flawed. God forgives us for our sins, but dis-belief has never been deliniated as a sin. Why should God forgive something He has not determined to be a sin?
I am Jewish, so I have a different belief system, but I totally understand the rationale behind Christian beliefs and while I do not believe that the only path to God is through Christ, I still believe that God chooses those who choose him when all is said and done.
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
ihasurnominashun on December 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 3:11 PM
*** You guys are getting to “deep” for my feeble brain, what thread is for the kiddies, I need to move there…
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
it’s perverse to think that he’d acquiesce in people “choosing” hell. The whole point of Christianity is that humans are fallible and will make mistakes.
Allahpundit on December 23, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Truer words never spoken (or typed)…
Speaking as one of the Catholic minority amongst Christians here, one goes to Hell if one rejects God’s Word knowing it to be true. If one simply does not believe God’s word to be true, that is no ticket to the “hot spot”.
JetBoy on December 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
I thought this was a damned Festivus thread!
SouthernDem on December 23, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Yes, but wouldn’t you miss Allahpundit??
Maybe not Dawkins….
I joke, I joke. But we’re all part of God’s creation, we all have a spark of His life in us. Isn’t Heaven diminished if even one of us fails to get there? The worst serial killer or child abuser is still a child of God, and I can hope for their repentance and salvation.
There’s probably some name for this line of thought. Don’t have enough theology background to say what it would be. But we can hope for the salvation of all without in any way being assured of it. I like how Chesterton put it:
Rosmerta on December 23, 2008 at 3:16 PM
It isn’t necessary. Abraham didn’t have access to Christianity either, but the Bible still teaches that he’s in heaven now.
It’s about calling on God and receiving the promise that he’ll be there, period. What name you call him, is an argument in semantics.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 3:17 PM
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