Melissa Etheridge to gays: Turns out Rick Warren’s a great guy, so let’s let it go
posted at 9:03 pm on December 22, 2008 by Allahpundit
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I told my manager to reach out to Pastor Warren and say “In the spirit of unity I would like to talk to him.” They gave him my phone number. On the day of the conference I received a call from Pastor Rick, and before I could say anything, he told me what a fan he was. He had most of my albums from the very first one. What? This didn’t sound like a gay hater, much less a preacher. He explained in very thoughtful words that as a Christian he believed in equal rights for everyone. He believed every loving relationship should have equal protection. He struggled with proposition 8 because he didn’t want to see marriage redefined as anything other than between a man and a woman. He said he regretted his choice of words in his video message to his congregation about proposition 8 when he mentioned pedophiles and those who commit incest. He said that in no way, is that how he thought about gays. He invited me to his church, I invited him to my home to meet my wife and kids. He told me of his wife’s struggle with breast cancer just a year before mine…
Brothers and sisters the choice is ours now. We have the world’s attention. We have the capability to create change, awesome change in this world, but before we change minds we must change hearts. Sure, there are plenty of hateful people who will always hold on to their bigotry like a child to a blanket. But there are also good people out there, Christian and otherwise that are beginning to listen. They don’t hate us, they fear change. Maybe in our anger, as we consider marches and boycotts, perhaps we can consider stretching out our hands. Maybe instead of marching on his church, we can show up en mass and volunteer for one of the many organizations affiliated with his church that work for HIV/AIDS causes all around the world.
Maybe if they get to know us, they wont fear us.
I know, call me a dreamer, but I feel a new era is upon us.
“A new era is upon us”? Man, that must have been some phone call. In fact, Warren’s position on Prop 8 was always more lukewarm than was advertised and he’s taken steps in the last few days to downplay Saddleback’s views on gays. It can’t hurt either that he’s gotten a vote of confidence from The One, whose Absolute Moral Authority is more absolute than most progressives’. Whatever the reasoning, it’s a shrewd move by Etheridge: There isn’t much politically that gay leaders can do for Warren, but as a hugely influential evangelical there’s a lot he can do for them by helping to mainstream gays and gay rights with values voters. The media will lionize him for it, too, which adds to the incentive. The question is, is this brand of identity politics capable of laying aside grievance and victimization and building a bridge if it’ll benefit in practical terms from doing so? What’s more important, in other words, the identity or the politics?
Here’s Warren addressing MPAC recently, affirming that he loves everyone (atheists too?) and emphasizing Etheridge’s point about restoring civility to disagreement. A common theme today.
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correction: status quo
your_worst_enemy on December 23, 2008 at 1:01 AM
I understand your position. Also, I’m not attacking him. From a business standpoint the big fat check is a liability if he has to pay state and federal income tax on it. If he is keeping money in a entity that he controls, or reinvesting in a manner that builds his brand equity then it might be a good business decision.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 1:03 AM
Not for you to say.
hillbillyjim on December 23, 2008 at 1:05 AM
Either way, he’s not hurting for money.
Fundamental Fred on December 23, 2008 at 1:05 AM
Go right ahead, if that makes you feel better about yourself, but it doesn’t change a thing.
Try to change the subject, or try to change the parameters; it’s still the same damn thing, whether you like it or you hate it and hate and hate and hate…
…eventually you will find that everyone else already gets it and all you have is your pitiful, destructive, crappy little hateful attitude.
hillbillyjim on December 23, 2008 at 1:13 AM
I know some gay people who are political and some who abhor politics and don’t have an agenda beyond dealing with issues like inheritence.
You should be able to teach that homosexuality is morally wrong without triggering the “fighting words” criteria that courts have looked to. If you aren’t inciting an immediate breach of peace there shouldn’t be a problem.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 1:21 AM
Umm…. no they can’t prohibit you from saying anything in your church and you can have big burly bodyguards with sidearms to keep them out of your church. This has nothing to do with religion. This is a temporal and civic matter relating to the recognition of a relationship by the state. You really don’t seem to understand the issues here. People like myself, who sincerely believe in equality and the Bill of Rights, will defend your right to say whatever the hell you like in your pulpit just as we think gay people have a right to be treated the same as the rest of us. It’s the American way.
lexhamfox on December 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Some fundamentalist he is. The fundamentalism I was brought up in many preachers would not say grace at a potluck dinner without doing an alter call. And here he is speaking to a room full of nonChristians without the alter call. Him and all his new fangled ways but the ignorant press insists on calling him a fundamentalist.
snaggletoothie on December 23, 2008 at 2:05 AM
Scary as it may sound, this place is tame compared to Michelle’s. At least there’s no talk of tampering with AIDS medications here.
SnarkVader on December 23, 2008 at 2:59 AM
hillbillyjim,
dude, I dont need to link to anything to “make myself feel better”. I can, however, to show that this batch of comments is not indicative of the usual response to these sorts of posts.
The rest of whatever you wrote doesnt even make sense.
moving on …
your_worst_enemy on December 23, 2008 at 3:42 AM
Rick Warren is a CA celebrity. It stands to reason that he would be more “conciliatory” when he’s called out. I am praying that this man (as he is only a man) remains solid on key biblical principles.
That said, this is true:
I’d also add: John Piper at http://www.desiringgod.org He has some awesome messages on homosexuality in his archives.
I also like Al Mohler who has a radio broadcast and blog entry on this topic.
Add to that, Mark Dever, CJ Mahaney, R.C. Sproul…and you have the recipe for really solid teaching. These men, by God’s grace, are unapologetic and loving.
Mommypundit on December 23, 2008 at 4:30 AM
Not a Rick Warren fan. As a Lutheran I simply do not agree with his theology or the theology of any fundamentalist preacher. He may be a fundamentalist lite but he is still fundamentalist. I will stick to the teachings of my church. No “decision theology”, no “rapture”, grace plus faith only for salvation! Thanks!
sabbott on December 23, 2008 at 4:51 AM
Don’t let the hypocrisy of false teachers disude you from learning about the honest Teacher. The Bible is easy to read, and the example is easy to follow.
Let the fools have their golden temples and plastic idols, you just worry about your own spirit.
TMK on December 23, 2008 at 4:58 AM
I am not sure that you understand the nature of liberalism. If the definition of marriage were to be changed, and gay marriage was to become recognized by the legislatures as a civil right- do you honestly believe that the government or ACLU would sit by quietly and allow my little church to object to the performance of a gay wedding ceremony within our doors? My pastor is a high school science teacher who gets 300 dollars a month to pastor the church. How many lawsuits from the ACLU could he afford before they broke his bank? Would the ACLU recognize my civil rights to keep my religion separate from the mandates of the government?
People ought not be so presumptuous as to believe that the only goals of the Gay establishment is just to secure things like hospital visitation and rights to inheritance. In many places in the country, there is a concerted effort to indoctrinate the children in the schools. The goal is to erase any fundamental disagreements with the practice and the agenda thereof. The goal is to redefine principled opposition to the practice of homosexuality as bigotry and discrimination.
Why is it, when the will of the people is spoken on the ballot initiatives- it is always challenged? A ballot initiative is democracy in its purest sense and form. To the best of my recollection, no ballot initiative to preserve marriage as one man and one woman has ever lost.
Fundamental Fred on December 23, 2008 at 6:05 AM
If Rick Warren is too fundamental for you, you would seriously disagree with my doctrinal stances.
Fundamental Fred on December 23, 2008 at 6:09 AM
Rick Warren’s comments to Etheridge that he believes every loving relationship should have equal protection and his backstepping from his earlier words regarding the sinful nature of homosexual behavior are troubling to many who have the utmost respect for Rick Warren.
It would be sad if he becomes corrupted and star struck, in his expanding powerful position. He may be trying to be all things to all people, which is a recipe for failure. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely – and all that.
sinsing on December 23, 2008 at 6:38 AM
Who?
scrubbiedude on December 23, 2008 at 7:20 AM
And speaking of gay, the Bears beat the Packers in overtime. I take little pride in this, as the Packers kicked their asses all over the field all night, and just failed to outscore them somehow.
The Bears are the worst 9 – 6 football team in history. They suck, and if they somehow squeak into the playoffs, every NFC playoff team will be hoping to draw them in the first round.
Jaibones on December 23, 2008 at 8:02 AM
*** As Mark Garnett steps up to the soap box a hush falls over HotAir *** (tap, tap, tap, is this thing on?)
My dear Brothers and Sisters,
I come before you today with a heavy, heavy heart… Mainly because I just ate a Pepperoni pizza, but also because ANOTHERONE BITES THE DUST! People who call themselves Pastors, Preachers, Ministers and DO NOT speak, teach and uphold the gospel of the Lord’s Bible are DEAD TO ME! The gay agenda for America is just another in the vacated morals that has and is dooming our once great Nation. In God We Trust… is just a saying? God Bless America… is just a song?
Where are the values that a srong and vibrant America once held near and dear? No, I am NOT suggesting that all gays should “burn in hell” nor that all of ANY group is evil or vile… I AM saying that the fabric of decay that surrounds gays and other so called “minorities” in America IS rapidly killing our soul as a Nation. I AM saying that people with agendas that try to “change” the basic morals and social values that we, as a people, once understood bound our Nation together ARE evil. Thier purpose is NOT for equal rights or freedoms, it is to FORCE CHANGE upon the structure of civility, the structure of family and faith and the hearts and minds of the oppresional childern exposed to such a moral morass.
The Roman Empire, as it decayed from within due to morals and values, immigration and corruption that fell to unimaginable lows, is looming over our heads in America like an Albatros. It’s the example of things to come and things that have already arrived, Politicians that no one can trust, morals that allow the teaching of sex education and gay rights to 1st graders, the porn industry, failing marriages, the breakdown of families and the abcense of God in our public square and schools and homes.
Now we have our Clergy that are joining forces with those groups that seek to destroy the American way of life, they call it “progressive” and “change”… They say folks like me are racists and bigots, that we are stuck in the past, that we faer change… No, wrong oh Mary Lou, we fear and SEE the destruction of a once proud, strong America. Men like “Pastor” Rick Warren, “Father” Flagher, “Reverned” Wright make me sad, angry and just plain confused. What happend to us? When did it change? How can we not shout from the mountain tops that this is NOT the “progress or change” that our Lord calls forth, where are the MEN of America, standing on the ramparts to protect our Country from the invaders within? Where are the WOMEN, protecting the children from this decay? Where are OUR voices?
God help us all if we do NOT stand and fight against the fast approaching enemy within, this “hopenchange”, this armageden of basic values and humanity.
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 8:05 AM
For the record, people who are against gay marriage don’t feel that way because of “fear.” We are not afraid of gays nor are we afraid of “change.” I like change. I used to spend hours writing out checks to pay my monthly bills; now I pay them instantly and automatically online. That is change I believe in. But redefining marriage, the bedrock of any stable enduring society, because gays have suddenly decided that they are into traditional institutions? Nah.
Also, Melissa, I know you mean well and I like your music but are there any other worthy charitable causes other than AIDs? Is it always all about the gay agenda? Of course it is. Not that that’s divisive, oh no, only when white straight Christians have a cause is it divisive. This may be a “new era” but some rules never change.
CarolynM on December 23, 2008 at 8:10 AM
Well said Mr. Garnett. More of us feel exactly like that than you’d know. I for one don’t even believe in the legitimacy of the word, “homophobe”. I have no ignorant fear of any group of people trying to make their way in this world and I certainly wish no harm to any other fellow American. But the militant and angry movements in this country are going to destroy us.
Personally, I think the most oppressed and persecuted groups in this country right at this point in history are Christians and Jews.
But thanks Melissa for being so darned….
Magnanimous! We ignant unwashed masses presiate it.
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 8:24 AM
I dont fear you, Melissa, I just dont condone your lifestyle. In this country you’re free to live how you want and it’s none of my business. But I dont have to accept it as normal.
abcurtis on December 23, 2008 at 8:25 AM
Btw – as an evangelical, Warren doesnt speak for me. I stand on my own two feet, listen to my own counsel, and know my own mind. I dont need a beach bum in a pulpit in California to tell me how or what to think. And I dont have to suck up to Melissa Etheridge either.
I have to wonder what position in Obama’s administration Warren is angling for.
abcurtis on December 23, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Ditto Carolyn M. and Mark Garnett.
Fundamental Fred on December 23, 2008 at 8:31 AM
I agree with you, dedalus.
If I stand in the pulpit and declare homosexuality the sin that it is, that God loves homosexuals (he does) and there is redemption and freedom from the bondage of homosexuality, then I should have no problem with the government. I expect to have it from the gays but not the government. Although I do expect the day will come when that free speech will come under hate speech laws.
However, if I stand in the pulpit and tell my flock homosexuals are an abomination to God so go kill them, THEN I’d expect to have all sorts of problems, as I should.
But I’m not Fred Phelps, and I renounce and condemn everything that man says. Period.
abcurtis on December 23, 2008 at 8:39 AM
Warren has compromised the Gospel and Biblical doctrine his whole ministry. I will not compromise truth, no matter what! I was a lesbian for a time, and even went to a gay church. But when I started reading the Bible I knew there was no way God intended that life style for normal behavior. The choice was clear! My way or HIS WAY!
Homosexuality as well as many other sins I have committed have been selfish acts for ME ME ME ME ME ME ME. I don’t struggle with homosexuality, but sin is sin.
I don’t even discuss the “morality” of homosexuality anymore. I get to the damage it does physically. You can’t refute that.
Mercy4Me on December 23, 2008 at 8:45 AM
After thinking about this overnight, there is really no legitimate way to compare Rev. Warren to Billy Graham. One has spent his entire life traveling to every country on Earth proclaiming the Sovereignty of Jesus Christ and leading millions of people to Him. The other one has a big church in California, has written a couple of books, one book on how to grow a big church, and spoke at a Muslim Conference.
No comparison at all.
So go ahead, Rev. Seek stardom first, proclaim His Word second. See where it gets you.
kingsjester on December 23, 2008 at 8:45 AM
Dont forget Dr’s Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley.
abcurtis on December 23, 2008 at 8:46 AM
Wow, thank you for that heart-felt brutal honesty. You touched me… I am so glad we have a loving and forgiving God. I wish you well and my God continue to bless you.
Merry Christmas Mercy4Me
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 8:49 AM
This is a quote from the Obama is a bigot article in Time.
I think it is very telling how they describe Obama’s…bigotry. Both Obama and Warren support equal rights for homosexual couples, but what gays want is equal recognition.
BohicaTwentyTwo on December 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM
And mine too. I’m looking forward to the rapture and I made my decision for Christ over 40 years ago.
abcurtis on December 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM
Rick is good. Right out of the gate he appealed to Melissa’s Ego. Worked like a charm.
bridgetown on December 23, 2008 at 9:04 AM
“Homosexuals are called by God to struggle against their homosexual tendencies as ALL people are called to struggle against the sinful passions which they find within themselves, while they work to heal the causes of their disorientation and disease.
The homosexual is called to a particularly rigorous battle. His or her struggle is an especially ferocious one. It is not made any easier by the mindless, truly demonic hatred of those who despise and ridicule those who carry this painful and burdensome cross; nor by the mindless, equally demonic positive affirmation of homosexual activity by its misguided advocates and enablers.
Like all temptations, passions and sins, including those deeply, and oftentimes seemingly indelibly embedded in our nature by our sorrowful inheritance, homosexual orientation can be cured and homosexual actions can cease”.
SaintOlaf on December 23, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Grin. Yes you do. That is what is being demanded of you, one way or another. Until you accept it as normal, the war will continue, on this, and many other “liberal” issues. Your choice is to be in a constant state of war with vast parts of your own society, or give in. Other than leaving the country, you have no other choice, and the sooner you realize and accept that, the better you will feel. Time to stop bemoaning the loss of our previous society. It’s done and gone. Time to adjust to the new reality and recognize your place as an outsider and protester in it.
On a related topic (insane liberalism), and torn right from the pages of Atlas Shrugged, the WSJ reports today on page A4 (Colorado Tightens Reins on Energy Extraction) that Colorado has passed new laws which will effectively shut down the energy industry in that state.
Traditionally, Colorado is energy.
There’s more. It’s worse. The story should be the headline on the front page, that the state of Colorado is tightening a noose around the United States, in an act of economic suicide and treason.
The gay thing, and this, are both of a theme. It’s the same conflict, different battlegrounds. I don’t think we’re fighting to see who will win anymore. That phase is over. The next phase will be to see if we can reclaim any land.
JiangxiDad on December 23, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Isn’t Melissa on her 3rd or 4th partner for life?
Bevan on December 23, 2008 at 10:12 AM
I won’t Submit to Islam, and I won’t accept the Gay agenda.
Welcome to the Dar al-Harb.
pseudonominus on December 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Yup.
JiangxiDad on December 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
You have said some wise things on your post, my man. Christians have staggered away from the teachings of the BIBLE – sometimes willfully and knowingly and on other occasions, mindlessly. The truth is that there are quite a few men in the church today who claim to be men of God and have these grandiose titles that they would like to be addressed as. I bow my knee to my Creator (ONLY) and thankfully know quite a few men who SERVE(as in being a servant) as leaders in the Church.
As Christians who follow the Bible we need to be able to be able to defend our faith with reasoning like the apostle Paul, rather than pure rhetoric. God sent HIS only SON for the (entire) World. We are called to model HIS love to people we live each with(whatever their past, current lifestyle, family history or dare I say it, political affiliation) without compromising on the TRUTH of Scripture.
It starts at the HOME fellas!!
defendfaithandfamily on December 23, 2008 at 10:30 AM
You can have my values when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
BohicaTwentyTwo on December 23, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Hmm..I don’t care anymore really.
The only thing that is going to change the hard left is total submission.
I say…Why don’t we just stop pussy footing around and quit playing nice.
I”m tired of conservatives being worried about being called a ‘bigot’ by people that don’t know what the definition is.
Lets stop flogging ourselves. They wanna fight?
I say…lets give it to them. Fight on their terms.
really, really nasty. Or at least as nasty as they do.
Why not? They are giving us an invite. Lets see who wins?
Handel on December 23, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Thank you very much. May God bless you too.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Mercy4Me on December 23, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Meh. Who cares. The whole Rick Warren invite is a trojan horse anyway. Obama’s gonna go radical lefty on the gay agenda — and every other agenda — and everyone knows it. This is just meant to confuse the unwashed masses for awhile. And it’ll work.
Rational Thought on December 23, 2008 at 11:05 AM
So only lawyers and musicians and movie stars and people who foreclose on homes or steal millions of dollars through “bonuses” can be wealthy?
Surely you realize that the Temple used to be the most extravagant building in all of Israel.
I don’t think you’re reading it correctly. One of the commandments is to have no other gods before God. Jesus was testing the rich man. Since he wouldn’t give up his wealth, then Mammon was his god, not God.
Jesus also said the same of family members. It’s not the item you’re being asked to give up that’s the problem but rather your heart on the issue. If you can’t give it up, then you’ve put it before God. That’s what the whole Abraham sacrificing Isaac was about. God didn’t actually want Abraham to become a murderer.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Second. How many wives has Rush had?
SnarkVader on December 23, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Never trust a washed up stand up comic who died on a toilet with a needle in his arm.
fivefeetoffury on December 23, 2008 at 11:14 AM
I just can’t trust this Warren. He seems to be one of those people who says all the right things to whatever audience he is speaking to. One minute it is incest and pedophiles and the next he is showing Etheridge how ‘tolerant’ he is. He reminds me of the Dabney Coleman character in Modern Problems. On the surface you think he is an everyman — great guy who appeals to all. When in fact he is little more than a fraud.
grdred944 on December 23, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Kathy, you’re the best!
CarolynM on December 23, 2008 at 11:17 AM
I agree, but the first battle to be won is with the media..good luck with that.
Itchee Dryback on December 23, 2008 at 11:18 AM
At least Rush did not drag any children into the middle of things.
pseudonominus on December 23, 2008 at 11:19 AM
You can still think homosexuality is a sin and also believe those relationships should be protected by the state (whatever that means).
The law does not define morality.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Maybe thats what Obama likes about him.
Warren is really just a very watered down Depoked Chakra imo.
Itchee Dryback on December 23, 2008 at 11:22 AM
So, many other heteros have. I’m actually a rarity with both my parents and my husband’s parents still being together.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Jesus was critical of the Temple and the way it ignored the poor and sick. After arriving in Jerusalem he created a fairly big disturbance at the Temple and scattered the property of the money changers.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 11:23 AM
That was for a completely different reason. Those people were selling sacrifices, when those were supposed to be personal. It was cheapening something that was supposed to have meaning.
It’s like saying that rather than say my prayers myself, I’m going to pay someone to do it. Yes, of course that made him angry.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Yeah, because straight couples with kids NEVER get divorced and remarried. Nope, never happens.
SnarkVader on December 23, 2008 at 11:37 AM
He also likely understood that it was a broader assault on the authority of the Temple leaders. While the Jewish Temple was large, as you point out, it was also destroyed within the lifetime of many Apostles, who would then more clearly see that Jesus, and Christianity, was the new Temple to be built in its place.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 12:07 PM
I attended the “union ceremony” of my cousin in San Fransisco in 1994, so I am not opposed to the concept of formalized relationships between same-sex couples. However, I voted for the support of Proposition 8. Why? The reasons were multiple, but the biggest is that the courts overturned the initial vote of the people (who desired marriage be legal only between a man or a woman). The second was the arrogant, entitlement attitude of many gay leaders and SF Mayor Noisesome. If those two things alone didn’t seal my opposition, then the recent spate of attacks on the Mormons sure did.
I think if gays and lesbians were serious about being taken seriously, then they would follow Etheridge’s suggestions. Stop the in-your-face parades of S and M and degradation, touted as “Gay Pride” (and stop forcing police and fire service people to appear in them). Stop the attacks on the Catholics (e.g. appearing in churches in nun drag), Mormons, and all Christ-oriented denominations). Stop forcing the attempts to teach that a gay couple is exactly equivalent to a heterosexual couple — it is not. Stop demanding “marriage” — focus on “civil unions” and then follow-up with the blessings from a religious organization willing to give it (it may surprise you to learn that many churches don’t marry hetero couples either, unless they meet certain standards).
In other words, stop acting like adolescents. No one “has” to accept you. You have to allow them to be willing to accept you.
Mutnodjmet on December 23, 2008 at 12:08 PM
True. That was the point of the curtains being torn in the Temple at his death. The separation of God and man was to be no more, and sacrifices were no longer to be required either.
But none of this is the same as saying a preacher can’t make money. Most of Warren’s money has come to him the same way Obama’s did, from writing best selling books.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Music to Melissa Etheridge: Quit making it.
therightwinger on December 23, 2008 at 12:19 PM
I don’t have a problem with Warren or with him making money. He runs a big operation and is looking to participate on the global stage.
I do think it make sense to be skeptical of preachers who instruct about the next life while they live lavishly in this life. Jesus did identify wealth, and its pursuit, as a serious obstacle to heaven.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 12:26 PM
An obstacle, yes, but he never said it was impossible. The point merely being that if you love this life more than the next, you won’t want to concentrate on God or Jesus.
Money is universal in that sense, but he could have just as easily said, books for others or movies or music or sports.
Esthier on December 23, 2008 at 12:32 PM
The impression of financial extravagance is as damaging as the reality on a ministry. That’s why Billy Graham formed his Evangelical Association all those years ago and took a salary. Every thing is above board and the facts and figures are available for those who wish to investigate. Tthat is why there have been no financial improprieties discovered concerning him.
kingsjester on December 23, 2008 at 12:38 PM
“Second. How many wives has Rush had?”
Not a fan, nice try
Bevan on December 23, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Abnormal SEX isn’t an alternative life style. It is what it has always been recognized to be a sickness that should only be punished if it involves a minor or a militant QUEER trying to make deviancy normal. Yet, to stop the corruption of society by the militant queers trying to corrupt society so that they feel good about themselves, the Inquisitions cleansing by burning may be the only answer in the END.
Max47 on December 23, 2008 at 12:42 PM
People can legally have abnormal sex lives–many straight people do. There’s no requirement to abide by what is practiced only by the majority. If a couple is into, say, sploshing, that deviates from the norm but may also add to their enjoyment of their relationship.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Me too Mercy. That you for sharing something so intimate. I have someone very special to my family that remain in our prayers for an awakening. That isn’t to say if she never changes we will love her any less.
Merry Christmas
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Defining your life by having abnormal sex provides the perfect example of subhuman behavior. In history, militant gays have met the fate of the “Band of Thebes” which is death. Don’t ask don’t tell is OK for societal purposes as long as consenting adults are involved. Calling such behavior an alternative life style destroys the society itself because anything goes always ends up with nothing going.
Max47 on December 23, 2008 at 1:23 PM
“Thank” you for sharing…Mercy
I couldn’t disagree more. Nothing in the Bible tells a person of the cloth not to be successful. These people, (and I’m no great fan of Warren) have lives too. They have children who will be their heirs and they have the same desire to pass fortune on to their children. Should anyone who chooses to follow God as a teacher condemn their offspring to poverty?
I suppose you would argue that the idea of celibacy in the Catholic Church orders is antiquated. (Assuming by other posts you’ve made, maybe a reach) But the fact that remains that if they were allowed to have wives and families, the church doesn’t really allow for acquisition of wealth to take care of said family.
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Most straight people (at least those out of their teens) don’t define their lives by their sex acts. They seek something beyond sharing pleasure with someone. Careers, charity, hobbies are some important ways people define themselves. In a relationship, sex is a part but the specifics are less important than the love, the mutual respect, the support and caring. Children, for many, are the greatest joy and biggest responsibility. All much more significant than what causes an orgasm.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 1:30 PM
If someone else (or many people) responded to this, and I missed it, I apologize. Your point is based on an incorrect premise–that government is “defining” marriage. Marriage has existed in its current state–man and woman–for thousands of years. This definition has never been questioned in civilization, prior to now. The fact that a group of people is now demanding government redefine this fundamental institution is what is at issue. One does not need to be religious to oppose such a goal.
DrMagnolias on December 23, 2008 at 1:36 PM
I wouldn’t argue that celibacy is antiquated. It seems consistent with the Apostolic example in the Bible.
I’m fine with anyone making money, especially when they have essential bills to pay. If a guy like Warren is compensated for enriching the lives of millions–then he deserves the money. Let people judge him on the quality of his message.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Over the centuries women have done much to redefine marriage in a manner that directly impacts straight males. A straight male is entering a marriage institution with his wife that is very different than when the country was founded, and he is much more affected by those changes than by whatever gay people do.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Perhaps I’m not understanding what you are saying–although expectations of behavior in marriage (individual roles, etc.) have changed, the definition of marriage remains man and woman.
DrMagnolias on December 23, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Are you talking about the fact that most men in America today have been NEUTERED by the wuss-i-fication of the male populace, the metro sexual farts, the mamby-pamby Feminist boot lickers?
Mark Garnett on December 23, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Point on Marriage is perfect. It has been around for all of human history & has never been about same sex abnormalities. Although, Barney Frank would be an appropriate partner for BOZO the CLOWN.
Max47 on December 23, 2008 at 2:18 PM
I’m ashamed to admit that I go to one of the Rick Warren type churches. And, I’m not ashamed. I’m ashamed that people like Warren may be too complacent in the face of immorality, confusing not only his followers but also those that he would evangelize. But, I’m not ashamed of men of faith that choose to overcome superficial differences (as some of theses civil rights movements are mere facades), choosing to elevate his grander purpose to the forefront of his intention.
Case in point of pastors wooing the left, as Warren is clearly doing. My pastor started blogging for Arianna Huffington. Meh.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tri-robinson/conspiring-against-consum_b_152650.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tri-robinson/please-forgive-us_b_151231.html
But, honestly, when I’m talking to a lib, I don’t just bash them over the head constantly. I flatter and I make fun of them and myself. It’s a strategy not an end in and of itself.
Warren certainly comes off as more genuine than some of our Baptist friends that typically come out against this sort of “new-age” Christianity (as some call it).
But, I’d say he’s more interested in real evangelism and bringing sinners to the faith than most of us. That gives Warren a moral superiority.
But, I totally understand that it seems antithetical to everything we at HA believe. Yet, the Bible notes that not everything is as it seems. See Proverbs 14:12.
Would you rather have Warren close to Obama or Wright? Warren or Wright?
anti-boomer on December 23, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Something like that. A man used to be the boss of the family. Legally, he got to make decisions, own all the property, have sex whenever he wanted and the wife couldn’t legally disagree. Now, his wife can divorce him whenever she wants, for no reason, and get half his wealth. Those seem to be some pretty big changes for straight people, much more material than whatever gay couples do.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 2:55 PM
In the U.S. the legal rights of individuals within marriage have changed dramatically. Restrictions on who can marry have changed significantly.
Historically, outside the U.S. one-man-one-woman has defined marriage except where one-man-many-women has also defined it.
Maybe gay marriage is a bad idea, but modifying the institution of marriage by extending it to another group of people doesn’t seem ipso facto to make it a bad idea. Did outlawing polygamy change the the definition of marriage for some groups? Perhaps it was a change for the better.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe polygamy has ever been legally recognized in Western countries. I don’t mean it hasn’t been practiced–we know it has been in the U.S.–but my understanding is that it was practiced within a religious context, rather than with legal sanction. Even with polygamy, however, marriage has been a man married to a woman (or a number of women)–no same sex relationship has ever been defined as a marriage.
DrMagnolias on December 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Yes, to the best of my knowledge. The definition of marriage has changed over the millenia, but not in a way that has included same-sex couples.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 3:44 PM
I would like to tell you how I appreciate your well-thought and reasonable way of approaching these questions. I am weary of how quickly some of these discussions escalate into “shouting” matches and name-calling. You are lovely to talk with.
DrMagnolias on December 23, 2008 at 4:10 PM
I don’t have a problem with redefining marriage at a point when a majority of society deems it necessary. I do have a problem when a small minority attempts to force such a change on the rest of us.
BohicaTwentyTwo on December 23, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Yes, AllahPundit, atheists too. I suppose if “he who is forgiven little, loves little,” then he who is forgiven much (i.e. a Christian), loves much.
SheofTwoMinds on December 23, 2008 at 4:21 PM
If the courts stay out of it, I think it will happen in the coming years given the way that opinion breaks down by age group.
If the courts see it as an equal protection issue, as the state courts recently have, then it won’t be a function of what the majority thinks. I’m hoping SCOTUS avoids the issue for a few years, as they may since they often consider “ripeness” before taking a case.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Likewise. Have a Merry Christmas.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 4:33 PM
If Melissa Etheridge can figure out how to get God to rewrite the bible, we won’t have a problem.
The left and gays(is there a difference?) just don’t get it. Christians historically have withstood far more persecution than getting called names like ‘bigot’ and ‘homophobe.’ If they think that Christians are going to throw out the parts of the bible modern society doesn’t like, they’ve got another thing coming.
TTheoLogan on December 23, 2008 at 4:39 PM
The state recognizing gay marriages doesn’t throw out the Bible any more than the state recognizing divorced individuals remarrying does. The state could enact laws against fornication or sodomy to legally enforce Christian teaching, but it doesn’t.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 4:46 PM
I have been checking HA all day here at work. I have noticed you haven’t left. At all.
Serious question. Are you a volunteer with an organization assigned to stay here and try to guide this discussion? You answers are almost exactly the same as prepared talking points a liberal friend of mine had gotten and shared with me.
If not, what is your dedication to this particular subject?
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 5:39 PM
“Your” answers…
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 5:39 PM
You’ve just described every date I had back when I was a misguided liberal.
As a woman, the best thing about crossing over to conservative circles after life as a liberal is the you leave beta males behind. And good riddance.
CarolynM on December 23, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Actually, I just got back from some Christmas shopping. I’m in front of my screen much of the day since I’m usually dealing with the financial markets. When I’m following a thread I tend to have an auto refresh on and keep that window open on one of my screens. I tend not to follow more than one thread at a time due to screen real estate and if someone responds to one of my comments I find it is more interesting to get back to them quickly.
If my answers correlate to someone else’s I can’t account for it since most of my reading is related to economics and financial history, though I do find the time-to-time contention between church and state an interesting topic. Also, most of my answers are off the top of my head since I’m usually just blowing off “real” work for a moment.
dedalus on December 23, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Okay. Thanks for the measured answer. I must say that I’m rather indignant when I read you’re posting on your firms time. I would never blow off work for even a moment. When I post through the day, it’s always on scheduled…
Haaaaah, I almost got it out.
jinx
hawkdriver on December 23, 2008 at 7:42 PM
Militant US Gays should move to Muslim lands to find out why they’re wrong about 9/11/2001 as well as doing the rest of us a favor.
Max47 on December 24, 2008 at 7:52 AM
What drives the tension is that many gays think that Christians are bigots because they believe marriage is a “Covenant” and a Sacrament. Gays don’t take time to understand it from the Christians’ perspective.
If gays only knew how much Christians do love them, they might be able to stop hating on Prop 8 and start thinking about what they are doing.
The hate of gays, just like the hate of others is NOT going to convince people that same sex relationships are a “Covenant” or that they are within natural law or that they are right. Violence is not gonna work. Gays taking a page from militant Islam does not provide any more moral justification to redefine marriage for same sex.
Sapwolf on December 26, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Yep. They will have to be ‘tolerant’ of Christians. But, based on my experience of the left over 30 years, they will not be tolerant. They rarely are of people who have a different opinion.
Reason and Faith go together so well that when they attack Faith, they always end up throwing Reason out too.
Sapwolf on December 26, 2008 at 1:10 AM
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