Has Britain lost its stomach for fighting?
posted at 1:42 pm on December 22, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Michael Portillo says that the British failure in Basra over the last five years exposes the UK as a paper tiger, unwilling to muster the political will to win when engaging its military. He gives a caustic summation of the British retreat, noting that the Iraqi Army in its infancy did more than what the world-class Brits could achieve. The problem isn’t the military, at least not its rank and file, but its leadership and the political class in London:
The fundamental cause of the British failure was political. Tony Blair wanted to join the United States in its toppling of Saddam Hussein because if Britain does not back America it is hard to know what our role in the world is: certainly not a seat at the top table. But, for all his persuasiveness, Blair could not hold public opinion over the medium term and so he cut troop numbers fast and sought to avoid casualties. As a result, British forces lost control of Basra and left the population at the mercy of fundamentalist thugs and warring militias, in particular Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.
The secondary cause of failure was a misplaced British disdain for America, shared by our politicians and senior military. In the early days in Iraq we bragged that our forces could deploy in berets and soft-sided vehicles while US forces roared through Baghdad in heavily armoured convoys. British leaders sneered at the Americans’ failure to win hearts and minds because of their lack of experience in counterinsurgency. …
Britain’s shaming was completed in March 2008 when Iraqi forces, backed by the US, moved decisively against the Mahdi Army, inflicting huge casualties and removing them from Basra. Operation Charge of the Knights was supervised by Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, exasperated that Iraq’s second city was controlled not by Britain but by an Iranian-backed Shi’ite militia.
Trust in the British had fallen so low that neither the Iraqi nor the US government was willing to give us much notice of the operation. General Mohammed Jawad Humeidi remarked that his forces battled for a week before receiving British support. He rubbed salt in the wound by noting that for five years the Mahdi Army had “ruled Basra without being punished or held to account”, and had during that time controlled ports, oil, electricity and government agencies, whose funds bought them weapons.
Many people will seize on this to score a few points for triumphalism, especially given the public “sneering” provided by British commanders about American efforts over the last few years in Iraq and Afghanistan. I’d call that a mistake. While the commanders eventually got proven wrong, at the time they correctly noted American failures which created the vacuum that allowed the uprisings of 2006-7 and the near-disintegration of Iraq to sectarian violence. They came up with the wrong solution, but they weren’t entirely wrong, either.
Also, while Portillo scolds Britain for its lack of political will, it’s still good to remember that the UK showed considerably more political will than other nations in Iraq. The Spaniards bugged out after the Madrid bombings, and other members of the Coalition gradually left the front as well. Britain’s forces still fight on the front lines in Afghanistan alongside Americans, Canadians, Australians, and a few other nations (update: like the Danes) that don’t refuse to engage in combat. The British remain our friends, and while they have made some serious errors in Iraq, they stuck around until almost the very end and remain by our side in Afghanistan.
The lack of political will is a problem that doesn’t just afflict Britain, either. The US has shown a remarkably short supply of it in Iraq, if not yet in Afghanistan. Bush bucked a rising tide of public opposition to the war to raise troop levels in Iraq, in part because he had the political cover of a federal system instead of the parliamentary system Britain has. Had Tony Blair followed suit and sent several brigades to bolster the Basra forces and start using much more aggressive tactics and strategies that initially raised casualties as we did, he probably would have seen his government toppled. Bush didn’t have that concern.
Portillo’s scolding about political will applies to most Western nations, including ours. Once we’re in a war, we’d better win it, regardless of how we got into it in the first place. All of the other options are worse. That’s not just a recipe for policy once we’re in the war, but for picking fights carefully in the first place.
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There’s an old saying.
If there is nothing in your life worth dying for, then there is nothing in your life worth living for.
I’m afraid that Great Britain has lost the will to live.
MarkTheGreat on December 22, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Obama would consider the acknowledgment of defeat courage, such is the left.
pat on December 22, 2008 at 1:45 PM
I disagree with this. See: Soviets in Afghanistan.
Endless wars eventually bankrupt a nation.
lodge on December 22, 2008 at 1:47 PM
The ghosts of The Black Prince, Francis Drake, Rudyard Kipling and Winston Churchill weep in shame.
Jim62sch on December 22, 2008 at 1:47 PM
The American people would have stayed onboard if the Bush Administration would have aggressively and forcefully counterattacked the absolutely worthless Democrat Party, when the Democrats lied about the reasons for war.
The Democrats, along with their lickspittle media, cynically attempted to sabotage our Commander in Chief and our military in Iraq, for crass political gain at the expense of our nation.
The Democrats failed. We’ve won in Iraq.
But the damage that the Democrat Party has done to this country due to their treasonous behavior, must never be forgotten.
NoDonkey on December 22, 2008 at 1:50 PM
This is a rhetorical question, right?
Given that they’ve lost the stomach to defend their own culture or Western Civilization in general from the onslaught of political correctness, nanny statism, etc. etc. etc. … I’d say the answer is a resounding yes.
thirteen28 on December 22, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Acknowledgement of defeat, when one is beaten, is courage.
What Obama advocates is the acknowledgement of defeat before the battle is engaged.
MarkTheGreat on December 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Only Germans, Japanese, Americans, Brits, sort of the Russians and the Aussies had any stomach for it before so celebrate diversity.
Speakup on December 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Betafication isn’t pretty.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on December 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
The West in general is in dcecline. Baby Boomers told us that we were evil oppressors who dont deserve what we have…….so now we’re giving it away to the 3rd world.
Our grand children will curse our cowardice.
DwnSouthJukin on December 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
It’s a general Western problem. We are still suffering from the emotional reactions we had post-WWII, when we signed all sorts of treaties declaring most of our winning tactics to be illegal, combined with a dangerously high rate of naive, childish leftist idiocy in the West. If we don’t remember how wars are actually fought, and how ugly they are, then we will lose. Heck, we haven’t forced anyone into unconditional surrender since Japan, (nothing even close, really) and we don’t even talk about that, anymore. We fight tribal cultures applying rules developed for individualistic cultures. We have strategic nukes but like to make pretend that killing civilians is never “allowed” in war. This sort of cognitive dissonance is typical of the natural state of the leftist’s mind, but too many have been dragged into this disturbed sort of thinking and cannot find their ways out.
progressoverpeace on December 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Before we go off the deep end here commenting about their elected officials, quick word about British soldiers. I worked with them in OIF and OEF and there isn’t a more professional or fierce soldier on the planet. If any are about that look in to HA, my hat is off to your and was proud to serve along side of you.
Cheers!
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 1:56 PM
My nephew said same thing hawkdriver. He said they are very professional and reliable. We don’t know this though.
sheebe on December 22, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Patton.
Alden Pyle on December 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM
The dhimmi British are doomed.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 2:03 PM
I think its more a Western problem in general. We’ve enjoyed an unprecedented period in human history of general peace and prosperity since the end of the Second World War and Western Europe, in particular, has enjoyed the protection of the American nuclear umbrella for the past forty-plus years. These factors have engendered a sense of complacency that, when combined with nanny-statism and the alienation, disillusionment and ennui brought about by the counter-cultural movement of the sixties, the pernicious wearing away of any sense of cultural cohesion and rejection of the universal values of the Enlightenment thanks to the influences of post-modernist thought, multiculturalism, and cultural relativism, and with the emasculation of males brought about partly as a result of the more radical elements of feminist theory, have resulted in a cultural and civilizational malaise.
The popularity of Ghandi’s famous (or rather, infamous) quote when asked about Western civilization–”I think it would be a good idea,” with many Western pundits and educators illustrates perfectly this sense of Western cultural shame that permeates much of our educated and “elite” classes. We in the West should be proud of our culture and heritage. It was the ancient Spartans who held Thermopylae Pass; Charles Martel and the Franks who defeated the Moors at Tours; Duke John who defeated the Turks at Lepanto; Stephen Decatur who humbled the Barbary Pirates; Generals Petraues and Odienero and the men and women of the United States and Coalition armed forces along with the Iraqi people who are in the process of securing victory there. It was Western minds that developed the concept of inalienable rights and individual liberty and it was a Western state that landed men on the moon. Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were products of Western culture.
One of our most important missions as conservatives is to remind people that Western civilization and culture is something to take pride in.
Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 2:03 PM
+1
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Ditto Disturb
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:06 PM
What is particularly depressing for those Brits who still take pride in their country is just how meaningless the UK is in the world. I’m sure some Brits will dispute that but really, what has England become? Half the population is imported from muslim countries and they are exerting their influence to the point that it is starting to look like a cross between some bad High Grant movie and Blade Runner.
grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Maybe they are just discerning about what wars are worth fighting and for how long it’s worth fighting and for what purpose it’s worth fighting. The United States became that way after Vietnam but now seems to have largely forgotten those lessons.
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:13 PM
BTW, here we go again.
Fresh off of the presses.
My unit just received official notification.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Also see U.S. in Vietnam.
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:16 PM
There goes Ed, trying not to offend anyone. I didn’t realize there were lots of british liberals reading HA. the british hunkered down behind barricades at the Basra airport and let the thugs run wild. They’ve avoided or backed off from conflict since the beginning of the Afghan war. They caused an international incident when they surrendered to the iranians when the iranians weren’t even asking for surrender. What the hell do they know about what is happening on the ground? They know what they see on international cnn.
peacenprosperity on December 22, 2008 at 2:16 PM
What you said is true but the GWOT is not a war that can be won in several years or maybe even several decades and certainly not just in two or three countries. Folks need to understand that it’s going to take patients and determination.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:19 PM
The Soviets didn’t win, they fell into a similar situation as we had with Vietnam. They couldn’t recover from it as we eventually did from Vietnam. However, we had MAJOR economic and international problems at least partly stemming from our failure there (not to mention the subsequent problems in Laos and Cambodia after we left). We were seen as not being able to back up our promises. It took the first gulf war to win that back – and then we threw it away in Somalia. Later, we showed a lack of will to truly engage and risk lives with our decision in Bosnia-Herzegovina to rely on airstrikes and not troops. Our weak response to acts of terrorism during the 90’s led terrorists like Al-Qaeda to think we would be ineffective in preventing and in our response to their acts. They were right. It all comes down to fulfilling our promises, and we didn’t do it effectively enough enough times. We’ll always be hated by someone, but we better be respected (or feared) or else we will die by a thousand cuts.
JeffWeimer on December 22, 2008 at 2:22 PM
There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.
- Sun Tzu
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Folks need to understand that putting almost all of your eggs into Islamic nation building in Iraq is not synonymous with the “GWOT”.
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I was in that war for years and I can assure you that the United Sates military did not lose. We won every battle and were never defeated. The wormy, weak willed, liberal politicians and their noisy anti-war followers created the conditions that lost the war. If we ultimately “lose” in Iraq the same kinds of despicable people will be the cause.
rplat on December 22, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Oh well, a shame. Time to start buying the women folk Burkas.
PS, the Soviets lost Afghanistan for three major reasons.
1. Telegraphing operations.
2. Isolating their FOBs from ground access.
3. CIA provided Stinger SAMs which limited air access.
If you throw in the water poisoning and grudge bombing, they just fought it poorly.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Not everywhere in the west. The red states and Australia are not pussywhipped and dhimmified yet. Russia is technically a part of western civilization and they are the ones the Islamofascists should fear. Once they get done using their Islamofascist allies as a proxy army and a tool against America they will crush them.
Nahanni on December 22, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Roger that! +10.
Charley Mike, my friend.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Oh well, a shame. Time to start buying the women folk Burkas.hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Hope not! I don’t know how to sew! :)
sheebe on December 22, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Thank you for your service and a thank you to them for theirs.
I’ve no doubt about the courage and professionalism of their rank and file soldiers. However, like soldiers is most (all?) western countries, they are bound to follow the decisions of the elected officials who, for the most part, follow the will of the people these days.
If the majority of the people in the country itself have lost the will to fight, the bravest soldiers in the world won’t make a difference until things are so awful that ‘leaders’ no longer take opinion polls to decide whether or not something is worth fighting for.
JadeNYU on December 22, 2008 at 2:33 PM
You missed a vital part of Ed’s paragraph:
Pick your fight carefully, and you wont be in endless wars – as America has not been anywhere NEAR a state of “endless war”
I remind you that 9/11 happened a scant 7 years ago.
Also:
Dude, you’re an All American?
apollyonbob on December 22, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Sheebe, I’m sure you be lookin fine in your Burka. Remember though, no white Burkas before Easter. Oh right, no more Easter. Never mind.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Indochina is devoid of decisive military objectives and the allocation of more than token US armed forces in Indochina would be a serious diversion of limited US capabilities.
- Joint Chiefs of Staff, 26 May 1954
See THIS from the US Army War College Quarterly, Winter 1996-97.
Norman Podhoretz, who believes that American intervention in the Vietnam War was “an attempt born of noble ideals and impulses,” has concluded that “the only way the United States could have avoided defeat in Vietnam was by staying out of the war altogether.” His judgment, in retrospect, appears to be as reasonable as any. The United States intervened in the Vietnam War on behalf of a weak and incompetent ally, and it pursued a conventional military victory against a wily, elusive, and extraordinarily determined opponent who shifted to ultimately decisive conventional military operations only after inevitable American political exhaustion undermined potentially decisive US military responses. Even had the United States attained a conclusive military decision, its cost would have exceeded any possible benefit. Vietnam was then, and remains today, a strategic backwater, and the US decision to fight there in the 1960s was driven by a doctrine of containing communism that in the 1950s was witlessly militarized and indiscriminately extended to all of Asia. Bernard Brodie observed in the early 1970s that “it is now clear what we mean by calling the United States intervention in Vietnam a failure. We mean that at least as early as the beginning of 1968 even the most favorable outcome could not remotely be worth the price we would have paid for it.”
The key to US defeat was a profound underestimation of enemy tenacity and fighting power, an underestimation born of a happy ignorance of Vietnamese history, a failure to appreciate the fundamental civil dimensions of the war, and a preoccupation with the measurable indices of military power and attendant disdain for the ultimately decisive intangibles. In 1965, Maxwell Taylor confessed that “the ability of the Viet Cong continuously to rebuild their units and make good their losses is one of the mysteries of this guerrilla war. We still find no plausible explanation of the continued strength of the Viet Cong.” Four years later, Vo Nguyen Giap commented that the “United States has a strategy based on arithmetic. They question the computers, add and subtract, extract square roots, and then go into action. But arithmetical strategy doesn’t work here. If it did, they’d have already exterminated us.”
The United States could not have prevented the forcible reunification of Vietnam under communist auspices at a morally, materially, and strategically acceptable price.
Also read H.R. McMaster’s “Dereliction of Duty: Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam.”
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:35 PM
I be. 4 aces as a matter of fact. Both arms.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:36 PM
You too?
Come on…sing the song!
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:37 PM
As simplistic as it might sound, for the time Viet Nam was a line in the sand to show China and Russia we would fight them. In the overall Cold War it was the greatest battle and we won. Our Viet Nam verterans ultimately won. We didn’t lose just because Walter Conkite declared it so. We won!
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Iraqi-centric belief system:
1) All roads start in Iraq.
2) All roads end in Iraq.
3) The Sun revolves around Iraq.
4) The moon revolves around Iraq.
5) The stars revolve around Iraq.
6) If the United States does not keep sufficient troop mass in Iraq, the orbital stability of the Earth will become unbalanced and all Muslim terrorists will slide into America [, and make American women wear burkas].
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:41 PM
We didn’t win anything and 60,000 Americans died.
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:42 PM
I agree. I’d just hate to see their soldiers maligned after hanging with us for all these years.
And thank.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Your opinion.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:44 PM
My mom, to this day, regrets the part she played in protesting the Vietnam war.
She was not at all anti-war. She was protesting because she believed that if American men were sent over there, they should be allowed to do what it took win the war. It pissed her off to no end that there was an arbitrary line drawn on the map that the enemy could retreat across and be perfectly safe.
Now, she realizes that she was a ‘useful idiot’ tool of the left since no one could really tell the difference between a protester that was angry that the soldiers were being hamstringed in the conflict and a protester that was anti-war.
I like to think she made up for it, at least in part, by raising 4 very pro-military kids (one of whom is now in the Navy).
JadeNYU on December 22, 2008 at 2:46 PM
It is always dangerous when you talk about our allies. They all have their own goals and limitations. We have numerous examples of their weak commitments.
However, if anyone doubts that the Brits are the best, let me know. And don’t use the limited experience and capabilities of the Eastern Europeans. Though you gotta love them.
One is example is somewhat interesting. I can’t find the cite but the Germans will not go out after dark in the Afgan theatre.
IlikedAUH2O on December 22, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Haha, no, no I’m not. I’m just a guy at a computer XP
I do thank you for your service. It’s always good to be able to get the perspective of soldiers who have been in “Indian Country” as it were.
apollyonbob on December 22, 2008 at 2:49 PM
What I think would be nice to hear from Brits regading Iraq is a little ackowledgement of one of the US Armed Forces greatest strengths, our ability to adapt to a changing situation. Lets face it, both the US and UK went into Iraq with the WRONG strategy to handle the reconstruction. The difference is that while the US adapted equipment and tactics to the situation, the Brits stayed with the same ineffective tactics and substandard equipment. Sure on day one, we had unarmored Humvees while the Brits had armored Snatch Land Rovers. But over the next few years, we went from unarmored Humvees, to Hummvees with armor add on kits, to fully armored M1114s, to MRAPS equipped with IED jammers. Meanwhile the Brits were still using their Snatch Land Rovers built for Northern Ireland.
BohicaTwentyTwo on December 22, 2008 at 2:50 PM
lol, Okay I’ll sing for you next time.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 2:52 PM
It was pretty widely held when I was there.
MB4 on December 22, 2008 at 2:56 PM
After Obama changes the military into a gay fighting force, we will be feared once again.
faraway on December 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Pretty widely held opinion here in Fayetteville NC that it was a stratigic imperative in the Cold War. Albiet costly.
But you put me at a disadvantage. I couldn’t come in till 76 so I’ll just have to say I respect your service, your opinion becasue you served there and that I’d love for us younger vets to be able to plan a belated tribute to the Viet Nam vets who weren’t treated as well when they came home.
I still believe we won though.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 3:04 PM
There was also the incident at sea in which a bunch of guys in rubber boats captured several British sailors and kept them hostage without firing a shot.
burt on December 22, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Not to mention inventing the automobile, the airplane, the telephone, television, computers, etc.
But Western culture is soooo evil. We should all still be living in caves and trying to figure out how to make fire.
Liberalism really is a mental disease.
AZCoyote on December 22, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Britain is the new France.
liquidflorian on December 22, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Some Americans, conservatives in particular, have a very wrong view of Britain’s decline. It’s true our power and influence isn’t half what it was, but that’s because we gave up the empire after WW2 (couldn’t afford it anymore, the Germans won really). It’s true that the left has dominated culturally for most of the last 30 years or so,but that’s a generational thing, and is true all over the West. It doesn’t mean that Britishness or any of our four nations have diminished in spirit.
What I would like to hammer home to Hot Air readers is that Muslims make up TWO POINT FIVE PERCENT of our population. TWO POINT FIVE. They are a tiny community, of little economic or social significance except for the fact that a tiny number of them like to blow people up. The idea that this is of great concern to us is nonsense. I urge you to consider the fact that from the late 60s hundreds of people were killed in the UK by terrorists. It sounds tough, but we aren’t as bothered as you guys. We’re used to it, and most people (not I) thought that the war in Iraq was an over-reaction. We’ve dealt with far worse than the 7/7 bombings in London. The idea that we have lost the will to defend ourselves is ludicrous, just look at what went on in Northern Ireland if you doubt Britain’s strength of mind. We are more concerned aout the government using the terrorists as an excue to take away our libeties, which is the beating heart of our cultural heritage.
We have had a left wing government for the last ten years, which has minorities amongst its constituencies, so it has been fighting the terrorists at the same time as throwing bones to the interest groups. This is no more a sign of the end of the UK than electing a Democrat means that America has suddenly become a socialist country. It’s swings and roundabouts gentlemen, the lefties get their turn, that’s democracy. You will see an altogether different tone in relations with the Muslim community in this country when the Tories get back in power.
Many of you, I mean this respectfully, act like a lot of Brits do about the US. You see a sensationalist story about Sharia, or a group of idiots in a Pakistani camp and jump to conclusions about the entire nation. Just chill out a bit. What Portillo says above is backed up by Ed – it was a political matter that the support for our troops wasn’t forthcoming after the early days of the Iraq war, it’s not some failure of the British spirit. Let’s not forget that our boys have been dealing with Helmland in Afghanistan, the toughest province, and have been taking heavy casualties. It’s the other NATO members you have to look at harder. I warn you that if we get trapped into the EU, you will find NATO diminishing rapidly, and then things really will be tough for the trans-Atlantic alliance. The EU is the real problem in our politics, not a few bearded wierdos who need to get laid more.
thedarknight on December 22, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Ouch, sorry about that second post. First post here. Maybe a mod can delete it?
[Done. -- Ed]
thedarknight on December 22, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Thank you for your service. My bro’s in the 82nd and he’s getting geared up. Last they heard they were going to the same spot he was at last time(OIF ‘07). Said it was boring and dirty and wasn’t looking forward to Khadimayah(sp?) again.
It’ll be interesting if it’s mountains instead of sand this time. Good luck and good hunting to both of you.
Kai on December 22, 2008 at 3:55 PM
I dig the brits. Hell, one of their units did a BAYONET charge in Iraq back in 2004. MOXY!
(Yes, I know it was mostly scots, but it’s under the same flag)
Kai on December 22, 2008 at 3:58 PM
thedarkknight,
As a fellow Brit,i am delighted that you have put our countries views beautifully. Well done.
mags on December 22, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Why are you turning this into a generational war? Most of those drafted into the Vietnam war were baby boomers. It was the people who fought WWII who were largely reluctant for another great war – just as was the case after WWI. And reluctant to send their sons and daughters off to the same horrors they lived through.
And baby boomers moving into the work force have been the ones to pay the freight in taxes over their entire working lives for many governmental programs introduced when most of them were not yet eligible to vote. Some of which may well be bankrupt and yield them no benefits when “their” time comes.
A lot of baby boomers – like me – are conservatives, and are tied of being dumped on for the “sin” of being born of those who fought the second world war.
ProfessorMiao on December 22, 2008 at 4:09 PM
We had one of your Royal Military Policeman named Corporal Mike Gilyeat who died with our crew on Flipper 75 on May 30th, 2007. Near simultaineous hit with an RPG and SAM.
Helmant Province was our toughest area in the beginning of 07.
Like I said up top, hats off to your soldiers.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Boring is good.
hawkdriver on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM
History, doesn’t back that. They were already bankrupt and were unable to push to a victory. They also chose not to fight like they did earlier. Typically they would mass slaughter/starve the population. They they didn’t do that, because the were worried about the PR. Had they acted like Stalin did in the 1920s, they would have taken that, but this time they didn’t have the NYTs on their side.
We aren’t willing to bleed out a country either, we try to do it nicely.
Romans figured it out. Doesn’t work to be nice and work with your enemy, it takes “Salting the Fields” to win.
Tim Burton on December 22, 2008 at 4:14 PM
How can you say this? have you seen the makeup of our government now? Bush did what he felt was right regardless of the political ramifications.
free on December 22, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Ta very much.
thedarknight on December 22, 2008 at 4:28 PM
If you don’t want endless wars, then you need to win the ones you fight, and deter enough that you don’t fight any more. To deter war you must convince every other country that either (a) they would rather have you as a friend than an enemy or (b) you’re an enemy but picking a fight with you would be suicidal.
Feckless behavior destroys your reputation on both counts.
Beyond that, there is the question of what we mean by “country.” al Qaeda is a “state without borders”, just as some international crime syndicates are. We have to know how to fight such forces, and we are still learning. The worst thing we can do is pigeonhole this threat and say that our existing tools and laws are good enough. The worst thing we can do is to stop learning. Yes, we may have faced these people before, but they are playing in our computer networks, our financial systems, our world of science and technology, and even our courts. They know how to hurt us; they are learning how to get better at it. We must be concerned not just with hurting them but with stopping them and destroying their “nations.” And the leaders who can organize and make such things happen must be found and killed, or locked up in solitary in the basement of a fortress somewhere.
njcommuter on December 22, 2008 at 4:33 PM
When you allowed the neo-cons to take over your forfeited any claim to this principle.
DeathToMediaHacks on December 22, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Sorry, Captain Ed, but there are some Brits who’ve been a bit too willing over the years to sneer (without scare quotes) at we less-than-sophisticated Yanks. We’ve earned the right to a bit of schadenfreude.
smagar on December 22, 2008 at 4:56 PM
I really did not have a clue what our soldiers were up against until I read Sniper One, which was an eye openner, a unit of 100 men killed 400 + for the loss of one man killed in an accident and quite a few injured, though they were under continious attack with mortars and two very heavy all out attacks of the Cinic house in Al Amarah. The British soldiers are pretty damn good, but their equipment is rather poor and as always they are lions lead by sheep, especially in terms of the current government.
I think the assessment by Ed was fair and I also like what my fellow Brits said. The issue is quite rightly that we have a left wing government in power that is so PC it hurts and going to war was Tony Blair only, the rest of teh Labour party would have been against, they do not have the stomach for it, they kept things quiet about the level of war fighting so as not to upset the Muslims at home, if you read Sniper One you can see that, also they were selling the bit about keeping the conflict down to their left wing party members, the rules of engagement were just amazing. I noted also that the writer made some comments about Americans being a bit gung ho, but he also shows some respect too.
I do not think it will be totally solved by a Tory government, there are some Tories who have the same sneering attitude as the left sadly.
smagar, your thinking of the left wing superior Brits who I detest, feel free to call them every name under the sun, I agree with you, but remember that many of us are not like that and are very pro-American and appreciate what your guys have been doing, I happen to know that we are in a war, many people don’t even know or want to know it.
TrueBrit on December 22, 2008 at 5:11 PM
They have been fighting in the holy lands longer then the U.S. remember the Crusades.
Dr Evil on December 22, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Brits use to be tough…but sadly they have been taken over by sissies and pansies who have infiltrated every aspect of their society including their military. Witness the soldiers who surrendered during a firefight at sea! I cannot imagine our SEALS doing same!
sabbott on December 22, 2008 at 5:48 PM
++
the_nile on December 22, 2008 at 6:28 PM
The British Navy is considered, man for man, the best maritime force in the world. Bar none.
There are also some really intense film clips of the Brits in Afganistan and Iraq.
And US Seals (or Coast Guard) would not have surrendered to the Iranians as the British did recently? I’ll bet there is all kinds of data for you to support that contention. And one event proves nothing. Remember Delta’s super performance in Somalia. Against rabble.
IlikedAUH2O on December 22, 2008 at 7:33 PM
Very little of the 2nd WW is known by this generation and we will end up repeating the same mistakes that led to over 20million people dying in that war. Liberals take the US to task over our Abomb of Japan. Everyone should be required to look at the CD’s of “The World at War” by Time life. Japan raped SE Asia, slaughtered more people (women and children) in one Chinese city than died in both Abomb attacks. They butchered all over that continent, Philippines, Malaysia, Borneo & China. The Brits surrender 130,000 men to a relatively small but fierce Japanese force in Malay. The US did similar in the Philippines. 3000 out of 10000 survived the Bataan death march. We are under estimating today what we face in the Jihad, China and Russia. Our own decay within is weakening us to the point that renders us a paper tiger. God have mercy on us when the first suitcase nuke goes off in a major city. We just won’t know what to do or against who to strike. Keep it up Democratic congress with your greed, feckless demands to close Gitmo, no wiretaps and on and on. Judges letting 52000 harden criminals go free in CA because they will “suffer” in over crowded prisons. We have as many enemies within as we do outside. Praise God we still have a hard core group of men and women who will fight to the end to defend what freedom we have left. Keep them in your prayers.
wepeople on December 22, 2008 at 8:04 PM
England needs Lady Thatcher back, or a reincarnation of Sir Winston. England also needs First Sea Lord Jackie Fisher back as well.
Mooseman on December 22, 2008 at 8:09 PM
wepeople — GOD bless YOU.
IlikedAUH2O on December 22, 2008 at 9:23 PM
It is rapidly becoming a problem here in the US as well.
Conservatives do not fight to get their message heard.
They sit in a corner and mumble their talking points – then cower as the leftists organize, protest and get their message out to the masses.
Christmas has been taken away and the right doesn’t do a thing. No marches on 5th avenue, no protests with picket signs at the malls and the stores that refuse to advertise Christmas.
Conservatives still shop at these stores and when they get a ‘Happy Holidays’ greeting their response is to hand over their credit card and pout they didn’t get a proper Christmas greeting.
I really hope you guys wake up in the next few months.
What will it take for Conservatives to get organized and form some protest marches to get their message to the masses?
Mr Purple on December 22, 2008 at 10:06 PM
We spent greater than 50 years fighting the Cold War. Some allege we even “won” it. I’m not so sure. Western Europe is far to the left of Russia and its former Warsaw Pact puppets and now America, under Obama is portside (by miles) of Communist China and North Korea.
It’s as if someone waved a magic wand and we became our enemies and they became us.
MaiDee on December 22, 2008 at 11:35 PM
1991 – The Soviet Union collapses.
1992 – The Maastricht Treaty is signed.
Nigel Farage on who’s who in the EU commission
Vladimir Bukovsky: “THE WEST LOST the Cold War.”
aengus on December 23, 2008 at 2:45 AM
Having the Soviet Union just collapse under its own weight, and disapear in the flash of an eye, after all those years of immediate threats of near annihilation, was just a shock too strong for the West to absorb.
George Bush Sr.’s idiotic empowering of the UN for The First Gulf War, and building that moronic “coalition” of non-participants, enemies, and nincompoops, was the first great step down a very dangerous, and ill-advised, path on the policy front. Empowering a peerless, competitionless entity is about the dumbest thing one can do.
On the social side, Westerners just made pretend that the Cold War had never happened and started thinking that the peace in the world had just been a natural event all along, and was to continue on, naturally, forever. And if there were another enemy to appear, we didn’t have to do anything but wait for them to collapse. All clean. They forget the work and the threat that was the Cold War – and, incidentally, that ultimate threat never went away, as we still have the “football”, but now we have ruled threatening like that to be illegal, so we generally just pretend that our strategic nuclear arsenal doesn’t exist, and if it did(!), then it isn’t a really serious thing … just for show. Not a smart sort of strategizing, but that’s what shocks can do to you.
This effect was even more pronounced with the Europeans, since they had been living in an artificial security/wealth bubble (which they took sport in ignoring) that had been built, paid for, and maintained by the US.
That’s how I see it, in broad strokes.
progressoverpeace on December 23, 2008 at 4:12 AM
“Has Britain lost its stomach for fighting?” No, not at all. There are many who are itching for a fight … with the EU, with misguided “tolerance” for evil, with political cronyism and establishment incompetence. However there are real problems, some as noted by previous commenters, plus:
1. Conservatives have ceased to be “for” something and are just “against” the liberals and socialists. Psychologically that is a hard stance to maintain; it is difficult to be perpetually enthusiastic about opposing something.
2. Conservatives in Britain lack strong leadership, in part because they are overwhelmed because socialists and libeals are pressing in on many fronts and have been for several decades.
3. Tony Blair’s government was an arrogant and inept clique surrounding an unwise, inexperienced, controlling, and slightly narcisstic leader.
4. More people supported the war than opposed it but Mr Blair and his colleagues made a complete mess of trying to justify a war that very few understood and thereby spread doubt even amongst supporters. The importance of the conflict has never been well explained.
5. The traditional champions and focus points of conservative values have crumbled almost to the point of irrelevency. The conservative political party lost power and two subsequent elections not because the socialists are widely loved but because it is (justifiably) perceived to be out of touch, cliquey, and fragmented with no strong values or coherence. Meanwhile the upper echelons of the church of England are perceived to be clueless wimps with all of the presence of fallen leaves at the bottom of an autumn puddle and with nothing worthwhile to say. No new leader has yet arisen around whom followers can rally.
6. A careless democracy tends to give power and influence to those who are least well equipped to handle it. The vote of the emotionally motivated ignorant person becomes worth exactly as much as that of the rational and informed person. Unfortunately there are far more of the former than of the latter.
The result of these things is that Mr Blair never really had the support of the nation in the Iraq conflict and was therefore politically restrained.
YiZhangZhe on December 23, 2008 at 5:14 AM
MB4:
The Soviet defeat in Afghanistan is more an outcome of their collapse rather then its cause. Bin Laden and other Muslim radicals believe that they brought down the USSR but that is merely a matter of Islamic self-centeredness. Had they won in Afghanistan they still would have lost the Cold War. In fact, the anti-Soviet forces were losing until the late 1980s. Another AQ self-myth is that they were agents of victory. They weren’t, the Northern Alliance won it.
The Brits have derided US military prowess since Bunker Hill. After Kasserine Pass Montgomery called US forces “our Italians.” He never seemed to have noticed that after Kasserine US forces out performed British troops from Tunis to Bavaria. The British military still treats the colonials (that includes us) with contempt. While it is true that the individual British soldier is well trained and tenacious fighter, in aggregate the British army generally underperforms other peer forces.
jerryofva on December 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM
They came up with the wrong solution, but they weren’t entirely wrong, either.
Let me take on the persona of House for a moment. There’s worthless and then less than worthless. Coming up with the wrong solution goes in the less than worthless category.
That also ignores the fact that we did find the right solution. Had we followed the “superior” British approach, al Sadr would be in charge, and Iraq would be an Iranian proxy state.
Oh, and there would be a bit of religious cleansing going on, too. Think the Christians would be able to celebrate Christmas in an open fashion?
I R A Darth Aggie on December 23, 2008 at 12:52 PM
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