Huh – all that work and nobody to read it.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 9:39 PM

Actually…

…it didn’t take much work at all.

In fact, it took me about 10 minutes to put most of that together.

Matt and Illindiva,
As regards maintaining a critical eye, I’ve noticed a special skepticism reserved for the biblical records. King David was regarded for decades as a mythical figure, until an artifact referencing the “House of David” was found. It’s almost as if biblical accounts are automatically presumed to be false until corroborated by non-biblical sources. It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

Yes, the biblical authors each presented a particular point of view, reflecting their own experiences and tailoring the narrative to their intended audiences. That’s one of the characteristics that make the biblical accounts so authentic.

SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 5:55 PM

I think that most people think that David is a historical character although probably more like a warlord and tribal chieftan than a king. I also think that Moses was probably a historical figure.

I do think that the trouble is when you get to the characters before Moses, especially the beginning of Genesis. I’d suspect that most people would argue that Adam, Eve, and Noah were not historical figures.

Umm..no those aren’t bones from the Hellfire Club buried in my basement.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 9:52 PM

Nope, they were the bones of cadavers used by William Hewson’s anatomy school and were buried in the garden.

Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

To sum up:
1) Franklin was NOT a satan worshipper.
2) the remains of 10 bodies where found, not thousands (there were 1,200 bones found, but since the human body contains something like 350 bones, there weren’t thousands of bodies)
3) they were found in the basement of the CURRENT structure, but it would have been the GARDEN during Franklin’s lifetime
4) Franklin wasn’t living at the house at the time the remains were buried – it was the home of an anatomy school.

Other than that, there’s nothing wrong with Olaf’s statement.

/sarc

The people who run/oversee Franklin’s London Home are so intent on covering up the remains of thousands ten people that they have an exhibit of the bones currently going on!

You can find this information on the Benjamin Franklin House homepage:

Throughout October, the full collection of human and animal remains from William Hewson’s anatomy school, run at 36 Craven Street in the late 18th century, will be on display to the public for the first time at Benjamin Franklin House, accompanied by information on Hewson’s life and times. These grisly remains were uncovered during excavation of the basement of Benjamin Franklin House in 1998. A special history of medicine lecture series runs on Mondays throughout the month, while Saturday 18th October sees an adult talk plus free activities for kids.

Wednesday 1st – Friday 31st December, exhibition open daily 12-5pm (except Tuesdays), £7/£5 (includes Historical Experience show)

Oh, here is why Olaf might have gone from 10 to thousands (from the link from the above mentioned homepage to a page about the exhibit):

During the conservation of 36 Craven Street, excavation of the basement uncovered over 1,200 pieces of human and animal bones in what would once have been the House’s garden. Glass slides, ceramics, mercury and other material found, as well as the marks of saws and other instruments, suggest that these were the remains of William Hewson’s anatomy school, run from the house between 1772 and Hewson’s death of septicaemia in 1774. For the first time since their discovery ten years ago, a variety of the larger bone fragments, including skull and limb bones showing instrument marks, will be on display at Benjamin Franklin House, along with contextual information and images on Hewson’s life and contributions to anatomy and surgery.

…um, anyone want to take a crack at this?

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Easy answer is – it’s bunk.

The more detailed answer is:

Ben Franklin was known to occasionally attend meetings of the Hellfire Club in England. The Hellfire Club was known for it’s mockery of religion – although there are many who claim this was done for shock value only.

Because of it’s secretive nature, the Hellfire Club was rumored to be a place where orgies and black masses where held (satan worship). However, there is absolutely no evidence that such occurred.

There is no record that Franklin was a member, and many historians believe that he was, in fact, a spy sent to find out what was happening there.

As for the “thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…”, in 1998 workers discovered the remains of TEN (not thousands of) bodies.

It was a bit difficult to find any kind of credible reporting on the issue (most of the google hits were from conspiracy or occult sites), but I did find an article from The Pennsylvania Gazette, the student newspaper for the University of Pennsylvania. The article tells us that the bodies where in all likelihood used for medical practice:

Then we hit pay dirt: “This work, which started in late 1997, has led to the discovery of the remains of 10 bodies hidden beneath the floor of the basement. The remains, 200-year-old bones, were buried at the time Franklin was living in the house. As most of the bones show signs of having been dissected, sawn, or cut with one skull having been drilled with several holes, the supposition is that they were the results of illegal medical experiments.”
Stop the press, indeed. Enter one William Hewson, husband of Mary “Polly” Stevenson, the daughter of Franklin’s landlady. “In the early 1770s, Dr. Hewson was in partnership with William Hunter who, with his brother John, was one of the founders of surgery in England. After a dispute with Hunter was resolved, with the help of Franklin, Hewson is believed to have established a rival school and lecture theatre in the Stevenson house.” And there, in the basement, according to a Westminster coroner, Hewson apparently buried those “anatomical specimens” — a prudent move, since the corpses had undoubtedly been obtained by illegal grave-robbing.
“The discovery is seen as providing an important insight into a time when significant developments were beginning to take place” in surgery, the Web site notes. “As someone who helped Polly and Hewson, Franklin can be seen as part of that history. There is, of course, no suggestion that Franklin was a grave robber or a participant in the lectures.” Whew.

One more point – while I didn’t do an exhaustive search, all of the articles I looked at that painted Franklin as a Satanist used the same external source – an article in Associated Content, which is an open-content web-site. Their motto is: “Associated Content is an Open Content Network.
Anyone can submit content on any subject in any format. ”

In other words, it’s a blog.

So, on the one hand we have an article in the UPenn newspaper documenting that the bodies (10, not thousands) where used for medical reasons.

On the other hand, we have a blog article written by…,well…,by some person with the username MF.

Nope…sorry…not worth my time or effort. I think I’m going to play Fallout 3 and commit some electronic violence…

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 7:48 PM

Hunting rifle FTW!

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Nope…sorry…not worth my time or effort. I think I’m going to play Fallout 3 and commit some electronic violence…

It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

One of the most important principles of the scientific method and critical analysis is that you’re not trying to prove a hypothesis–rather, the goal of observation, analysis, and critique is to disprove the hypothesis. Essentially, if you go into an experiment or analysis with the goal of proving something, you put yourself at risk of reading the data or source in such a way as to make your theory correct while if you go about attempting to disprove a given theory, then you expose it to much more rigorous testing and analysis.

Did Moses part the Red Sea and was Pharaoh and his army swallowed up?

Red Sea parting:
For what it’s worth, Youtube also features a critic who says that there is a type of coral that grows in a wheel-and-axle-like shape, and warns about religious artifacts shysters.

While you can separate out the Bible as historical source and the Bible as Scripture, it does call for you to maintain a critical eye and be willing to acknowledge and accept your own beliefs or lack thereof.

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Matt and Illindiva,
As regards maintaining a critical eye, I’ve noticed a special skepticism reserved for the biblical records. King David was regarded for decades as a mythical figure, until an artifact referencing the “House of David” was found. It’s almost as if biblical accounts are automatically presumed to be false until corroborated by non-biblical sources. It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

Yes, the biblical authors each presented a particular point of view, reflecting their own experiences and tailoring the narrative to their intended audiences. That’s one of the characteristics that make the biblical accounts so authentic.

Again, it makes me believe that she has mounted a manipulative rumor campaign designed to hurt her former church, that the church is simply trying to undo the effects of her malicious rummors, and that the woman has upped the ante by going to the press — thus undermining her original argument that this is about the church violating her privacy. I can’t prove this, but it seems more reasonable than arguing that her church, or the Christians on this site, are calling for her head.

This is what Allah’s post was about. Does anyone want to speak to it?

flicker on December 22, 2008 at 5:27 PM

The woman definitely pulled a bone-headed stunt when she took this issue to the press. That really undermined any/all argument she had about what the church was doing.

THAT SAID…

…it is obvious that the church continued to go after her after she made it abundantly clear she wanted nothing to do with them.

Now, it IS true that we know this only through her word, which may or may not be completely true (let’s face it, if you’re going to the press you’re going to spin the story to make yourself look better).

However, when contacted by the press, the pastor did NOT take that opportunity to state that they were no longer pursuing discipline against her. In fact, the strong implication in the brief statement quoted in the press is that they most definitely ARE pursuing her.

And the church has no business doing anything with someone who is no longer a member.

Yes, it morphed into a thread filled with TheMightyQueen and his acolytes calling for even more punishment, and condemning all the sin-filled heretics and heathens daring to speak their mind.

As someone who defends Christianity against the actual abuse that the media and society and militant atheists heaps on it, your support of this fundamentalist rhetoric just makes your beliefs look even more insane, and makes those who would tend to give you the benefit of the doubt dwindle.

MadisonConservative on December 21, 2008 at 5:42 PM

I am enjoying this wide-ranging discussion on God, homosexual marriage, Mohamedanism, the Illuminati, and theological inconsistancy, but it looks like most of the players have devolved into trench positions and are more interested in biting humor than further understanding of the others’ arguments.

That’s not really bad here, either.

But for those who say that the Christians are calling for more abuse to be heaped on the woman, back up a bit. As I said, she outted herself, so I really don’t think that she can call what that church is doing to her “persecution” and “crucifixtion” as she has done. These words are most often adopted by a speaker who is more interested in manipulating and inflaming opinion than expressing what he or she really thinks is going on.

Again, it makes me believe that she has mounted a manipulative rumor campaign designed to hurt her former church, that the church is simply trying to undo the effects of her malicious rummors, and that the woman has upped the ante by going to the press — thus undermining her original argument that this is about the church violating her privacy. I can’t prove this, but it seems more reasonable than arguing that her church, or the Christians on this site, are calling for her head.

This is what Allah’s post was about. Does anyone want to speak to it?

The 4 Source theory no longer holds sway in Biblical textual and critical criticism.

Right now there doesn’t appear to be any one leading theory, although many believe the books had a final Deuteronimistic editing before they came to be in the form we now know them.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 4:52 PM

That’s my understanding as well, but you and I can both agree that Moses didn’t write Genesis while receiving the Ten Commandments.

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Like I said. Dhimmi.

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Groan.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:32 PM

While there are a couple of people adamantly defending all of the actions of the church…

…the large consensus of people here believe that the church was well within their rights to do what they had done UP TO the point where she left the church.

After that, it became none of the church’s business.

That all said, I believe the majority opinion is that both the woman AND the church are nuts.

Actually, anyone who has studied Gensis knows that it was written by at least four authors, so that is kind of impossible. (And before you go accusing them of being heathens, I’ll let you know that my Bible knowledge comes from Catholic HS religion classes).

The 4 Source theory no longer holds sway in Biblical textual and critical criticism.

Right now there doesn’t appear to be any one leading theory, although many believe the books had a final Deuteronimistic editing before they came to be in the form we now know them.

That is how they rationalize labeling anyone who is, say Muslim, as a terrorist.

This group has been doing it for, oh, just over 2000 years.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Actually it’s kind of ironic that you say that.

I am an Orthodox Christian and am debating an agnostic(Madison)…

I’m just saying: find out the truth.

If all muslims aren’t all bloodthirsty killers don’t say they are and don’t advocate killing them all.

Christianity preaches NON VIOLENCE..

A violent war with islam or whoever is not Christian teaching.

We don’t accept ANY earthly ruler as our king.

Our kingdom is not an earthly kingdom.

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

Let’s try to clarify this and seperate the truth from the lies.

Supposedly it is the shia that believe in the return of mahdi etc. and NOT the sunni.

Do not shia’s make up only 5% of muslims worldwide?

Do you now see how ridiculous it is to say that ALL muslims want to reign nuclear fire and destroy the world and kill all non muslims?
It’s called propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Yep, but despite this, you want to convert everyone to Christianity.

The dhimmis are crawling out of the woodwork.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:38 PM

They always do.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

The dhimmis are crawling out of the woodwork.