Church to ex-congregant: End your affair or we’ll publicly humiliate you
posted at 3:59 pm on December 19, 2008 by Allahpundit
They warned her twice to break it off, once in front of witnesses, but evidently God’s healing love requires a ritual shaming in front of the entire congregation. Which, incidentally, includes her kids — but not her. She quit the church after they violated her confidence the first time.
They’re going ahead with it anyway. To do otherwise might be considered un-Christian.
Hancock learned that her private sessions with her mentor hadn’t been so private after all, when in October her mentor pulled her aside in church and asked her come into another room.
“In the room, there were several women that I never told my business to. And they proceeded to tell me about my business and what I was doing and what a sinner I was — just persecuting me.” Hancock said. “One of the ladies was even saying ‘I was at your house when you didn’t come home all night.’”
It was then that Hancock said she decided to leave Grace Community Church…
Darrell L. Bock, a research professor for the Dallas Theological Seminary, said that public admonishment is not uncommon in churches that focus on discipline but added, “Most churches would handle this much more privately than this particular community is choosing to do.”
This kind of process normally would happen after “much more private interaction” with the person, Block said, and is normally reserved for church leaders as opposed to “a normal member of the church.”
More importantly, he said, the actions are unusual given that Hancock had severed her relationship with the church.
Here’s the actual letter they sent her, two months after she left the congregation. I can’t tell what they’re planning to do, whether it’ll be just a pro forma declaration that she’s sinned — which of course is public knowledge now anyway — or whether they’re going to spill secrets about the particulars of the relationship that were confessed to her pastor. Predictably, at least a few commenters in Headlines are citing chapter and verse to defend the church; my own reading of the relevant passage in Matthew 18 is that she’s already “neglected to hear” the third admonishment by cutting off ties with them, in which case they should skip it and just dismiss her as a heathen. Exit question: Is this actually S.O.P. in Protestant ministries, at least for congregants who are still members? I’ve never heard of anything remotely like it happening in a Catholic parish.
Blowback
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One son per planet is still an ‘only’ son per planet.
Or one son on many planets is still ‘only son’
I’ve got to go, I’ll try to get back to this sometime tomorrow.
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 9:16 PM
Brigetown’s “that almost everyone who picks up a Bible believes he is the greatest surgeon alive, therefore has divine authority to mercilessly carve up anyone who disagrees” is a bit harsh, I think.
I think this page has been quite respectful even while discussing one of the “don’ts” of polite discourse (the other being politics).
flicker on December 20, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Actually, it would be more intellectually honest to learn how Christianity actually treats Old Testament law from somebody who’s a subject expert in theology.
Just out of curiosity, Madison, do you also judge biology on the basis of what you learn from high-school-level biology students? or construction on the basis of what the shop class is able to build on their own? So, why are you here judging Christianity on the basis of what you hear from some nincompoop who knows about as much Christianity as somebody can learn in a week?
The question of how Christianity treats Old Testament law is truly not very difficult to understand — if the person asking actually wants to understand. The problem I find is that most of the time, the person asking just wants to sneer. If that’s what you want, it doesn’t matter if your teacher is Jesus, Archimedes, Plato, or Isaac Newton, you’re not going to learn.
philwynk on December 20, 2008 at 9:53 PM
I think you are being intentionally obtuse.
If we are to take God Knows Everything as True, then we can surmise the following:
-God knows what you will do before you do it.
Definition of Predetermine
Definition of Foreknowledge
Definition of Omniscient
Based on what the words actually mean, you have no free will. God knows what you will do, you cannot change what God already knows, unless you think God is fallible. God, by definition, is infallible.
God already knows your sins before you are born. He already knows if you will accept or reject Christ. He can do this because he is the Alpha and the Omega.
Krydor on December 20, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Wow. You’re not even intelligent enough to know when you’ve been completely owned by a man who’s five times your intellect.
Take my advice and go home. You lost.
philwynk on December 20, 2008 at 10:08 PM
Based on your obvious contextual ignorance, you already have. It’s quite profound to see self-styled intellectuals making fools of themselves in public by expostulating about subjects that Sunday School children are more proficient in.
fossten on December 20, 2008 at 10:11 PM
I’m seeing something on this conversation that I don’t see nearly often enough: Christians who a) know their religion well enough to explain it cogently, and b) understand their critics well enough to ignore — or better yet, dismiss with appropriate disdain — the ones who are only there to sneer. Would that all Christians would be taught to do both so well.
One of the reasons there’s so much atheism is there are so few Christians with the wit to make the nasty atheists look as stupid as they actually are.
philwynk on December 20, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Re: philwynk: Hear him, hear him! I would just add that a person who has lived within Christian circles for most of his life might be more capable of describing the way various churches treat the Mosaic law than any seminary expert, in much the way that an long-employed Master’s in Engineering is generally more broadly experienced in various functional aspects of engineering than a PhD who spends his time teaching in a university. But that’s neither here nor there.
But I would like to offer a purely personal speculation about this lady’s case against Grace church. In the past decades I have seen many good and bad churches. But I have never seen a church, no matter how legalistic or strict, air dirty laundry months after the congregant has left. My guess is that there must have been some on-going smoldering rumor campaign conducted against the church in order for them to feel that, after the fact, they still have to publically excommunicate her.
After all, she has in other reports said that the church was “persecuting” her and even “crucifying” her. It seems to me that this kind of hyperbole is more an agumentative PR convention rather than a statement of how she has been, as she argues, betrayed. My uneducated guess is that the church is just trying to set the record straight. I may be wrong, but I don’t think you should just automatically condemn the church.
flicker on December 20, 2008 at 10:31 PM
leetpriest on December 20, 2008 at 11:02 PM
That’s good. My Catholic school education should be more than enough to satisfy your arbitrary standards. I note you didn’t present the damning “context”. Please, tell me what I left out of Exodus 22:18 that didn’t involve “sorceresses must be put to death”. And please also tell me how that was never actually implemented. *cough*Salem*cough*
I apologize. I forgot to put quotes around “vices”, as I normally do.
Already got that point from Matt Hall, and acknowledged and agreed with it.
Ah, that ever-present “homosexual agenda” bobs up again. Being that I’m neither homosexual nor part of an agenda, and that I argue against militant homosexuality as much as the next guy (check the post about Prop 8ers attacking and intimidating people for my take on it), I’m afraid you’ll have to try again.
MadisonConservative on December 20, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Depends if the “experts” in question hold up a high-school-level biology book and proceed to tell me that all that needs to be known about biology is contained in that book. If I went to the school that used that book, and spent more time studying it not only than most of the rest of the students, but especially read it over when the teachers never really told us to, then I would feel at least somewhat justified in discussing the subject without being “dismissed with appropriate disdain” just because you don’t like what I point out.
MadisonConservative on December 20, 2008 at 11:16 PM
Krydor said:
This is only true if “everything God knows” does NOT include everything that might happen or could happen. This is the kind of knowledge God actually has according to the way God talks about His knowledge of the future in the bible.
If you want tons of examples you can find them here on this site.
http://www.biblicalanswers.com/predestinationindex.htm
TheMightyQuinn on December 21, 2008 at 2:22 AM
I am saddened to read most of the comments on this post. What good is a church if it does not stand up for what is right? When did fornication become OK and not something to be rebuked? For anyone who’s actually read the Bible, how is there any disputing what Jesus himself instructed in Matthew 18:15-20, or what Paul wrote in I Timothy 5:20? “Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.”
The real problem is that most churches today are unwilling to take a moral stand. They permit unrepentant sin in their churches and in doing so, lower the moral standards of that church. How can that church any longer have any moral authority if it allows sin to go on openly without addressing it?
What about all the church members that are trying to bring up their children with good moral standards, and instead their children get sent a message that fornication is discouraged but still allowed with absolutely no consequences? How does that help those children make it through the turbulent teenage years without bowing to peer pressure amid our secular culture? If the immorality they are surrounded by at school and in the world is also allowed at church, what chance do they have to lead moral lives?
And this moral decline has real-world consequences. Do you really have to wonder why we have a huge problem with single parent households that too often provide a far-less-than-ideal situation for the children (Mom has to work two jobs, does her best but just can’t possibly have enough time for her kids, they get raised up by day care centers, many lack a father figure in the home, and are much much more susceptible to drugs, gangs, crime, rebellion against authority, etc.), and are the single greatest reason for families living under the poverty level in this country.
If the immorality doesn’t bother you, then consider that the decline of the family has an economic impact on every tax payer through the welfare state (all the means-tested subsidies, tax credits, etc. plus paying far less than fair share for “public goods” — e.g., roads, bridges).
I find laughable all these comparisons to the Taliban. Seriously? They aren’t threatening to stone her. They were attempting to get her to repent with the threat of bringing the matter before the entire church, and all she had to do was stop fornicating long enough to get married to the guy. She obviously isn’t too worried about it going public. She chose to go public with it nationwide rather than repent. It sounds like she clearly knew what the church taught on this matter. Unfortunately for her, she assumed the church would be like most of the other churches and allow her to continue on with her sin.
Finally, I acknowledge that IF there was a promise of confidentiality, then that should have been honored. At the start of mentoring, the mentor should disclose what steps would be taken should something like this come up. However, I think there is a happy medium to confession. I am all for confession if it is someone truly confessing sins and asking for forgiveness with a repentant heart and pledging to try their best to avoid that sin in the future. On the other hand, I am opposed to confession if it is simply a way to assuage one’s guilt and go on sinning.
willamettevalley on December 21, 2008 at 4:50 AM
If that so-called church goes public I hope the poor victim comes to her senses and uses man’s law to sue that cult out of existence.
Annar on December 21, 2008 at 7:08 AM
That’s unlikely. If he’s five times my intellect, then he is the smartest man on the planet. The smartest man who has ever been. That counts even if he’s 5 times your intellect, which is a much more obtainable goal.
Thanks for playing, though. I’m actually having a conversation here. You remind me of the kids who agree with the popular kids in order to become popular.
Then he is not the Beginning and the End. Remember, all the predictions handed to the prophets are never wrong. (I’m letting that one go for the sake of argument) Therefore, he knows the outcomes prior to them happening.
My main beef with Christian Theology is that the supreme being is logically inconsistent.
Krydor on December 21, 2008 at 10:53 AM
So are we all. Maybe that’s what’s meant by “God made man in his own image.”
Disturb the Universe on December 21, 2008 at 10:57 AM
As an agnostic. I don’t care much for fundamentalist goody two shoes dictating morality for everyone, but as someone whose been cheated upon, I find myself in total agreement with what they’re doing.
And as others have said, if you’re going to sit in a church and claim to follow the rules, don’t get upset when you get taken to task for not only breaking them, but brazenly flaunting them in everyone’s face. In the amoral world we live in, maybe a little shame and condemnation would do not only this woman, but many others, a little bit of good.
JFS61 on December 21, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Yikes. I take a night off and look what happens – 600+ comments on religion? spirituality? God? god? truth?
I’m not sure what is being debated here. Is there anyone who is arguing that God and heaven are not bound by linear time and therefore are not controlled by linear time?
If not, there should be since that would explain a lot of the confusion trying to pass as knowledge.
As far as religion goes, is there a single one that is not created by man? And if all were created by man, how can they help God? Help Him do what, exactly?
There’s a video on youtube that shows a cat chasing the end of its leash around a toilet. This thread appears to be doing much the same thing with God.
platypus on December 21, 2008 at 12:39 PM
It happens with the ones that know their Bible.
Those who doubt God are like the mice living inside a piano. The mice think that the beautiful music they hear just comes from the strings.
Mojave Mark on December 21, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Krydor said:
No, a prophet is never wrong in telling what God told him to say. But, God is able to make a prophecy fail if He chooses based upon the decisions that men make that have an effect on bringing what was said to pass. Here are a few good examples that demonstrate this.
Jeremiah 26:2-19
“Thus says the LORD: ‘Stand in the court of the LORD’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship [in] the LORD’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 ‘PERHAPS everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’ 4 “And you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5 “to heed the words of My servants the prophets whom I sent to you, both rising up early and sending [them] (but you have not heeded), 6 “then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.” ‘ ” 7 So the priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD. 8 Now it happened, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded [him] to speak to all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people seized him, saying, “You will surely die! 9 “Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without an inhabitant’?” And all the people were gathered against Jeremiah in the house of the LORD. 10 When the princes of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of the LORD and sat down in the entry of the New Gate of the LORD’s [house.] 11 And the priests and the prophets spoke to the princes and all the people, saying, “This man deserves to die! For he has prophesied against this city, as you have heard with your ears.” 12 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the princes and all the people, saying: “The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city with all the words that you have heard. 13 “Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 14 “As for me, here I am, in your hand; do with me as seems good and proper to you. 15 “But know for certain that if you put me to death, you will surely bring innocent blood on yourselves, on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing.” 16 So the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man does not deserve to die. For he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.” 17 Then certain of the elders of the land rose up and spoke to all the assembly of the people, saying: 18 “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Zion shall be plowed [like] a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, And the mountain of the temple Like the bare hills of the forest.” ‘ 19 “Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD’s favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”
Jeremiah 18:7-10
“The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy [it,] 8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it,] 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Isaiah 38:1-8 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’ ” 2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, 3 and said, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done [what is] good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, 5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years. 6 “I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city.” ‘ 7 “And this [is] the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing which He has spoken: 8 “Behold, I will bring the shadow on the sundial, which has gone down with the sun on the sundial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward.” So the sun returned ten degrees on the dial by which it had gone down.
This shows that God does in fact know the future as being partly open with actual possibilities existing and not only inevitabilities.
TheMightyQuinn on December 21, 2008 at 4:23 PM
Great thought!
highhopes on December 21, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Proof that faith isn’t a dead institution. Allah started this thread so that we could all bash those evil Christians who dare attack women who shack up and thumb their noses at religion. But, as usual it morphed into something else.
highhopes on December 21, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Wrong. God knew His plan from the beginning. What you call logical inconsistency is really man trying to apply earthly logic to the Supreme being.
highhopes on December 21, 2008 at 5:10 PM
Yes, it morphed into a thread filled with TheMightyQueen and his acolytes calling for even more punishment, and condemning all the sin-filled heretics and heathens daring to speak their mind.
As someone who defends Christianity against the actual abuse that the media and society and militant atheists heaps on it, your support of this fundamentalist rhetoric just makes your beliefs look even more insane, and makes those who would tend to give you the benefit of the doubt dwindle.
MadisonConservative on December 21, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Exactly how bad does this church want to lose a suit for defamation of character?
nelsonknows on December 21, 2008 at 6:16 PM
I stayed out of this thread, beause judging, accusing, and damning are not in my area of expertise. Except on the receiving end.
Pelayo on December 21, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Because the piano player did not see the mice climb into the piano, he or she thinks God must have put them there.
Pelayo on December 21, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Pelayo on December 21, 2008 at 6:29 PM
The piano is a figment of your imagination. Unplug from the Matrix.
:)
Disturb the Universe on December 21, 2008 at 6:44 PM
Now we’re getting to the good stuff!
platypus on December 21, 2008 at 8:36 PM
I’ve refrained from commenting thus far, mainly because most detractors of the concept of church discipline aren’t basing their opinions on the Bible. Matthew 18? 1 Timothy 5? 1 Corinthians 5? Romans 16? No wonder American Christianity is so messed up… In the last 50 years or so, the American Church has reduced the Gospel to the “four spiritual laws” and telling people to pray the “sinner’s prayer” and that makes them “good”. Then, after a few years, when the person doubts, the person’s pastor merely says, “well, check the back of your Bible, you know, where you wrote your name and date, and just tell Satan to stop bothering you.” When was the last time anyone here ever heard the term “propitiation” in church? How many sermons preached across the country today were about holiness? Sin? True repentance? People need to start reading their Bibles rather than basing their faith on what Hollywood and Joel Osteen tell them.
Send_Me on December 21, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Send_Me, Joel Osteen! Yikes! A prophet of positive thinking and money money money! great observations!
sabbott on December 22, 2008 at 7:23 AM
Vice? Sinful? Goody, everybody’s quoting Paul, the Original Misogynist. I’m sure a shrink could have a field day with Paul. In 1 Corinthians, Paul writes, “It is better if a man never touches a woman….”
Uh, yeah. You guys have fun with a religion that keeps that quote in its core texts. I’m a male heterosexual homo sapiens sapiens, and I enjoy the company of female homo sapiens sapiens–and if there IS a God, I reckon he designed things to be just that way.
Paul is just this side of Mohammed in his loathing of the female sex. Keep those “morals” away from me.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Oh yeah–and you might note that Christ never said any such thing. Instead every whackjob with issues over natural human sexual behavior insists on referring to a Roman tax collector who never met Christ. Whatever.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Did Paul have sex with a 9 year old child?
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Paul didn’t have sex period. And tried to get everyone else in the Christian world to stop, too. I guess future generations would have been born by immaculate conception? *snort* As Freud said, “Abstinence is the ultimate perversion…”
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:15 AM
I’d say having sex with a 9 year old would come a whole lot closer to the ultimate than abstinence.
You’d be a better debater if you weren’t so prone to hyperbole.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Why don’t you ask the Shakers how well abstinence works for a religious movement? They took Paul seriously.
Oops, that’s right. All the Shakers are dead now.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Yeah, but they didn’t pork any children.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Paul and Christian theology: Guilt issues and psychological sexual dysfunction to go!
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Paul’s point is a valid and interesting one.
If one is not married (which is the context of the verse), then one has more time to devote solely to God.
This thought is very difficult to argue against.
Paul, as other Christians of that time, also thought that Christ was returning in the very, very near future. Thus, he believed, things could be put off and dealt with for the short time needed before Christ returned.
Yes, Paul was very, very zealous in his faith and wished/hoped that every one else would be/could be as zealous as him.
Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 11:30 AM
And you shifted focus. I never said following Paul was a good or bad thing for future generations. I just took offense at your suggestion he was little better than Mohammed.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:30 AM
This is called an argument from silence and gains us nothing.
Or, to put it another way, Christ never said anything about rape…
…thus should we assume He was all for it?
Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 11:31 AM
“Yeah, but they didn’t pork any children.”
Uh okay and…? We’re talking about normal, healthy sexual relations between consenting male and female. Normal and healthy until they get loaded down with a bunch of crap about how their act is BAAAAAADDDD. “It is better if a man never touches a woman”. Read that carefully, please. It means sex is WRONG. EVIL. SINFUL. At its very core. Marriage is only there to mitigate the evil, but not to erase it. If you want a part of that stupidity, that’s your biz.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Mohammed could have used a little guilt, as well as some sexual dysfunction.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:32 AM
“Paul, as other Christians of that time, also thought that Christ was returning in the very, very near future.”
Ooops! (rolling eyes)
And yet I thought that everything in the Bible was the revealed Word of God? So uhhhhh…when Paul was wrong about the imminent return of Christ, the revealed Word of God got that one wrong? Or lied? Or was just….horse pucky?
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:33 AM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Slow down. Get a grip. Don’t hyperventilate.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:34 AM
There are several different ways to look at and perceive the Bible.
You’re attacking those that take a very literal approach to it.
I’m more in the ‘infallible’ camp which posits that the Bible is truthful in all spiritual matters but also shows how fallible human kind can be.
Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 11:39 AM
quikstrike98 strikes quickly but with little precision.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:42 AM
I’m breathing quite normally, thanks. I find it amusing to throw the logical inconsistencies, hypocrisy, and theological bilgewater right back in the faces of the people who love to sell it. I mention Mohammed because Paul did for Christian sexuality what Mohammed did for t’ other side. Quite frankly, the 9 year old issue is “shifting focus”. We’re talking about Paul, the insistence by Christians on treating his anti-female rants as being Word of God, and their trotting his wormy corpse out to justify all kinds of social/sexual persecution right up to this very day. Paul writes some ignorance 2,000 years ago, and the woman in the article (who uhhh, ISN’T MARRIED, for those of you with reading comprehension problems) gets to be publically persecuted by “right-thinking” whackjobs, half of whom are probably using this as an amusing activity in between fornicating in their own adulterous or pre-marital relationships.
A nice big show trial and public burning at the stake does help to distract people from what you’re doing under the stands….
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:42 AM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:42 AM
I’m not selling any “theological bilgewater.” I just detest a false comparison.
You’re much more likely to see a nice big show trial or public burning in the Muslim world. Women who have been raped there are frequently accused of adultery and stoned to death or hanged from cranes. Under Sharia a woman’s testimony is only worth half that of a man.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:48 AM
If the woman whose story launched this thread had been a Muslim we might be reading about an Honor Killing instead of a silly story about outing her to her congregation.
I am not for outing anyone’s personal business in church, but it’s a far cry from what could happen to her under Islam.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Quite frankly, the 9 year old issue is “shifting focus”. We’re talking about Paul
No, you compared Paul’s misogyny to Mohammed’s.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
It’s all a matter of degree. Not that long ago women in this country were being branded, pilloried, and otherwise molested and mutilated by “right thinking Christians in this country…with quotations from Paul among their chief weapons against the “evil” sex.
And if you want some fun light reading, go hunt down a translation of the “Malleus Maleficarum”
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
But it is happening as we speak in Iran, Saudi Arabia, et al.
Live in the present.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:56 AM
If you want to see where the current misogyny reigns supreme, read anything by Robert Spencer. Or go visit JihadWatch and DhimmiWatch.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Read an autobiography entitled Burned Alive by a Palestinian woman named Souad.
She had sex outside of marriage. He parents hired her brother-in-law to douse her with gasoline and set her on fire.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:03 PM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book Infidel. Especially the chapter that describes in graphic detail the genital mutilation she and her sister endured.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:05 PM
I am living in the present. As is the woman in this article, being persecuted by “Christians” who don’t like her sexual mores. I’m sure they’d love to have a good stoning if only the laws of this country would allow it. I live in the Bible Belt and I get to see “Christians” trying to push laws on the rest of society all the time. Oh–and no, I’m not lib troll from HuffPo, I’m a former Marine whose political beliefs tend to be just a tad to the right of Genghis Khan…but who also has a strong libertarian streak, and who believes in free minds. The vast majority of Christians I’ve seen in action (including an uncle and cousin who are Baptist ministers) are all about social, mental, and sexual control of others. All with a saccharine smile and all Jesus’ lurve, of course.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 12:07 PM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Paul’s legacy of misogyny is nothing in comparison to Mohammed’s!
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:07 PM
First, thank you for your service as a Marine.
Second, I too have a strong libertarian streak.
Third, I too have wrestled with Christian misogyny and haven’t attended church in years because of it.
Yet, I see that Christianity has mellowed much in 2000 years where Islam has not.
Where Christians to start stoning women again, I would be the first to fight against such misogyny.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:12 PM
Nine more comments to get this thread to 666!
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:16 PM
I’m fully cognizant of crimes committed against women in the name of Islam. I won’t even post my strong feelings about what should be done to end *that* evil. At the same time, I’m also fully cognizant of the heinous crimes committed against women by “Christians” in the past, and I have no delusions that humanity has evolved in the last few hundred years. Some clear thinkers managed to put laws into place in Western countries to prevent the religious zealots and their following mobs from doing precisely what their interpretations of the Bible told them to do.
I’ve seen the woman living next door to my parents hospitallized by her abusive husband–and when she divorced him and kicked his lousy a$$ out of her house, she was ostracized by the neighbors (not my folks) because “Good Christians” don’t get divorces. I’ve seen women psychologically marred by religious teachings regarding sexuality–and I’m not going to get into the sordid details on that one. I’ve seen brilliant, intelligent women driven by their families’ shaming them into a life of religious zealotry, shutting off their spirits of inquiry, of skepticism, their lively minds shackled by some minister’s poison lies.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Some of those clear thinkers were Christian themselves.
That’s sad. But it is a free country (thanks to the Marines and the other armed forces), so they are sadly complicit in their own oppression.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 12:37 PM
No actually no Catholic Church would think about publicly shaming a woman for committing a sin. Sins should be confessed in private with a priest under the sacrament of Reconciliation. Priests are forbidden from bonds of Reconciliation and will be excommunicated for doing so.
Just another example of how the Bible should not be taken out of its historical context.
As a Catholic, I’ve always been taught that the Bible is spiritually true but not historically accurate.
Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Don’t bother with quikstrike98, He doesn’t get it and is too enslaved to his Passions to begin to comprehend what St. Paul was talking about.
He was obviously raised by a household with a legalistic view of Christianity.
Sin IS something to be taken seriously but the legalistic approach is absolutely the wrong approach.
In truth, it is SICKNESS/HEALING NOT stain/juridical satisfaction.
Legalism ALWAYS leads to minimalism…(i.e. what is the least I can do)
The reason why quikstrike here is so beligerantly disrespectful and virulently hateful is because,while he knows nothing about Christianity, he thinks he knows all about it and rejects his own false version of it.
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Oh, I’ve seen plenty of Christianity. Both on the Catholic and on the Protestant sides. Spent several years in Catholic High School. Got tons of Christmas “presents” from my aunts and uncles of fundy proselytizing garbage for me to read. Got dragged to Assembly of God services after my mother in law badgered my (now EX) wife into thinking she needed more Jesus in her life (along with more faith healing, pretending to speak in tongues, flopping around on the floor, etc, etc…)
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 1:03 PM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 1:03 PM
My father forbade me from entering any church where the congregation spoke in tongues.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 1:04 PM
You haven’t checked out the Orthodox Church.
That is the true Church.
It is vastly different than both the Roman Catholics and the Protestant churches.
The roman catholics and the protestants are wrong and are in fact responsible for much of todays agnosticism.
You haven’t seen or heard about Christianity if you haven’t checked out the Orthodox Church.
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 1:08 PM
I often wonder what it’s like to live so ridiculously closed out to competing ideas.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Number 666?
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM
I find that statement troubling, since the Bible is so useful and reliable when exploring history.
SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 1:30 PM
In answer to AllahPundit’s question, I attend an interdenominational Protestant church, and our response to sin has always been discrete, with a view to lovingly supporting the restoration of the sinner. An adulterer would be required to step away from any ministerial duties, but would not be publicly shamed. Some people have chosen of their own accord to confess their sins to the congregation, but I think they were able to do that because they are secure in our mutual love and know that we will pray for and support them.
SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Like any other historical source, the Bible should be examined critically–remember, it’s the history of a people and as such, will have a definite point of view. Traditions and legends interweave with historical fact. Did Saul, David and Christ exist? Yes, historical evidence from other sources supports their existence. Did David slay Goliath with a sling-stone? Did Christ feed the multitudes? Did the rams’ horns cause the walls of Jericho to topple? Did Moses part the Red Sea and was Pharaoh and his army swallowed up? Well, this is where faith comes in. If you do not believe that those events took place, then they’re folklore or invented traditions. If you believe they did take place, then they’re miracles.
While you can separate out the Bible as historical source and the Bible as Scripture, it does call for you to maintain a critical eye and be willing to acknowledge and accept your own beliefs or lack thereof.
Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM
And many were Deists. Like Washington and Franklin. Have a look at Thomas Jefferson’s Bible some time. He got himself a razor and spent some time liberally cutting passages out of his King James.
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Don’t forget Thomas Paine. The Christians turned on him when he wrote The Age of Reason.
But John Adams was a Christian and a good man.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 2:01 PM
And a damn hard man to like….
quikstrike98 on December 22, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Doesn’t that prove that Christians have no…Common Sense?
Yuk, yuk.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 2:12 PM
I’ll give you Franklin and Jefferson, but will disagree on Washington being a Deist–he was a regular churchgoing Anglican/Episcopalian. Read Gordon S. Wood’s biography of Washington sometime. Jefferson’s views on God and religion are actually quite complicated–as was the man himself. In any event I would classify Deism more as a philosophy than a religion. Now, what tends to get ignored is that while the Enlightenment was going on you also had a religious reawakening known as Pietism in Europe or the First Great Awakening in North America taking place at the grass-roots level emphasizing a more personal, introspective piety.
While the church might have been losing its institutional powers, people still sought spiritual outlets in a variety of creative ways–far from being dead, religion thrived.
Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Funny thing is that–for all that people tend to dump on Voltaire for his criticism of religion, one of the few truly decent characters in Candide was a person of deep faith: Jacques the Anabaptist. What people forget is that Voltaire was against religious hypocrisy and religious tyranny and intolerance–not against faith.
Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 2:20 PM
This is the point that gets lost in this ongoing tug-of-war between atheists and Christians over the faith of the founding fathers.
I would hazard a guess that the founding fathers would have a problem with our attempts to label them in such narrow definitions (Christians, theists, deists, etc.)
Jefferson and Madison, for instance, both show a great deal of thought, nuance and even changes in their beliefs as time went by.
It’s quite easy to find quotes from most all of the ‘founding fathers’ that show their belief in God and Christ…
…and also quotes showing their divergence with religion and the church.
Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Highly doubtful that many stories the Old Testament are 100% accurate. I don’t think that most serious Bible scholars take the Creation story or Noah’s flood word-for-word. In fact, Noah is basically a rework of Gilgamesh.
The New Testament has more accurate, but even there many of the incidents are filtered through the author’s own experiences and opinions. Each of the Gospels is written to a distinctive audience, which is why they all have a different take on the same events.
Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 2:38 PM
I don’t know. I like him, but I have a soft spot for curmudgeons.
I like Ben Franklin, but I bet John Adams was a better husband to Abigail than Ben was to poor Deborah.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 2:49 PM
In the case of Paine, yes.
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 2:50 PM
FIFY
Just because some secular,biased and dishonest oxford professor said that does not mean it’s fact.
The truth is, the story of Noah is far older than the Gilgamesh story.
You’re right..they were not Christians. I won’t deny that.
Most of them were high level freemasons(read: Occult Satanists).
It is a fact that they dug up dozens of dismembered bodies under freemason/illuminati member Benjamin Franklin’s house from the period that he lived there. Look it up.
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Dude, you should charge admission to read this stuff. It makes Alex Jones look like an amateur.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Okay. I looked it up. But isn’t there another explanation for the bodies? In this time period many doctors were involved with grave robbers because this was the only way to get their hands on cadavers to experiment on. Franklin was a scientist, so is this so far fetched?
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Did you look it up smart guy?
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Are you talking to me?
Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Heh, I guess linking to Alex Jones’s insane infowars tabloid gets posts moderate. No wonder you didn’t provide a link yourself.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:23 PM
The guy was a 33rd degree Mason(you have to perform satanic rituals to get that far BTW)+ an illuminati member(who also perform satanic rituals) and there were tons of dismembered bodies found unceremoniously buried in his basement (many of children)….
Hey, but the founding fathers were not a bunch of rich elitist occultists…they were all good guys.
Winners write the history books.
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:25 PM
No.
I was talking to MadisonLib..
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:26 PM
Zeitgeist.
New World Order.
Rex-84.
Black helicopters.
Bilderberg.
Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (one of the biggest hoaxes in history for those not familiar)
There, I’ve spoken your warped, hilarious language, most often taken seriously by white supremacist groups, neo-nazis, and doomsday cults. Getting through to you yet?
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:29 PM
Versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh were written in the 2100 BCE and the version most widely read (Akkadian version) was written between 1300 BC and 1000 BC. The first part of Genesis was probably written during the Babylonian exile by a priestly caste and both the first creation story and the story of Noah are reworks of Akkadian myths and legends. It was likely a way for the priests to refute the Babylonian religion and keep the Jewish exiles faithful.
However, even though the stories aren’t true, that does not mean that they aren’t spiritually relevant. There is a reason for how YHWH works unlike the vengeful and unpredictable Akkadian gods.
Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Doubt the existence of the Illuminati, scoff at ranting nuts like Alex Jones, and you’re a lib. So sayeth the word of SaintOlaugh.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Someone’s read too much Dan Brown.
Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM
If that is such a “hoax” like you’re always claiming…can you tell me why everything in that book, written hundreds of years ago, has come true?
Is it a coincidence?
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Wrong again.
Genesis was written by Moses on Mount Sinai.
Somebody’s not paying attention.
Dan Brown is an illuminati propagandist.
SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:39 PM
It’s gotten to the point where that response is unsurprising coming from you.
You mean like the destruction of Islam and the rise of Judaism as the dominant social group?
Why not ask everyone in the Middle East how true that’s become? Oh, the same Middle East where the Protocols is a top seller from Egypt to Syria to Iran, and even Saudi Arabian textbooks teach the damn thing to their children as fact.
A bunch of religious fundamentalist terrorist bloodthirsty barbarians hold that thing next to their holy book. Is it a coincidence?
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Dude, I’m at work. People are asking what I’m laughing so hard at.
MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:43 PM
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