Church to ex-congregant: End your affair or we’ll publicly humiliate you

posted at 3:59 pm on December 19, 2008 by Allahpundit

They warned her twice to break it off, once in front of witnesses, but evidently God’s healing love requires a ritual shaming in front of the entire congregation. Which, incidentally, includes her kids — but not her. She quit the church after they violated her confidence the first time.

They’re going ahead with it anyway. To do otherwise might be considered un-Christian.

Hancock learned that her private sessions with her mentor hadn’t been so private after all, when in October her mentor pulled her aside in church and asked her come into another room.

“In the room, there were several women that I never told my business to. And they proceeded to tell me about my business and what I was doing and what a sinner I was — just persecuting me.” Hancock said. “One of the ladies was even saying ‘I was at your house when you didn’t come home all night.’”

It was then that Hancock said she decided to leave Grace Community Church…

Darrell L. Bock, a research professor for the Dallas Theological Seminary, said that public admonishment is not uncommon in churches that focus on discipline but added, “Most churches would handle this much more privately than this particular community is choosing to do.”

This kind of process normally would happen after “much more private interaction” with the person, Block said, and is normally reserved for church leaders as opposed to “a normal member of the church.”

More importantly, he said, the actions are unusual given that Hancock had severed her relationship with the church.

Here’s the actual letter they sent her, two months after she left the congregation. I can’t tell what they’re planning to do, whether it’ll be just a pro forma declaration that she’s sinned — which of course is public knowledge now anyway — or whether they’re going to spill secrets about the particulars of the relationship that were confessed to her pastor. Predictably, at least a few commenters in Headlines are citing chapter and verse to defend the church; my own reading of the relevant passage in Matthew 18 is that she’s already “neglected to hear” the third admonishment by cutting off ties with them, in which case they should skip it and just dismiss her as a heathen. Exit question: Is this actually S.O.P. in Protestant ministries, at least for congregants who are still members? I’ve never heard of anything remotely like it happening in a Catholic parish.


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Comments

Oh, the same Middle East where the Protocols is a top seller from Egypt to Syria to Iran

??

Because muslims like it, it obviously means it’s bad or wrong?

A bunch of religious fundamentalist terrorist bloodthirsty barbarians hold that thing next to their holy book. Is it a coincidence?

How do YOU know that they are all bloodthirsty barbarians?

They’re semi-dangerous heretics yes.

Globals threat?

I doubt it.

The vast majority of the muslim world is controlled by the corrupt Saudi Arabian royalty.

Those guys are not muslims.

They are NWO.

They come here drink, do drugs, buy hookers etc. and then get on the microphone and say

“we are good muslims, we do not drink etc..”

after which a billion muslims bow 5 times a day to mecca saudi arabia.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Wrong again.

Genesis was written by Moses on Mount Sinai.

Actually, anyone who has studied Gensis knows that it was written by at least four authors, so that is kind of impossible. (And before you go accusing them of being heathens, I’ll let you know that my Bible knowledge comes from Catholic HS religion classes).

Dude, I’m at work. People are asking what I’m laughing so hard at.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 3:43 PM

+1

Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 3:59 PM

Yes Islam needs to be destroyed.

It is a dangerous heresy and muslims often persecute Christians.

BUT, muslims need to be converted…not killed in bulk, like YOU barbarians advocate.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM

How do YOU know that they are all bloodthirsty barbarians?

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Iranians? Syrians? Oh, I don’t know. Maybe it has something to do with their view of Americans as being The Great Satan and that their messiah will return to them once they murder my ass.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:56 PM

The Muslims desire a One World Order, too. They call it the Caliphate.

Global Threat?

Hell, yes!

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:03 PM

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM

+1

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:05 PM

Yes Islam needs to be destroyed.

It is a dangerous heresy and muslims often persecute Christians.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM

Persecute.

As in cut their fricking heads off because they aren’t Muslim.

Oh, oh, that’s right. Hezbollah, Al Qaeda…they’re separate entities with no connections to the governments of those nations.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:05 PM

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Oh, oh, that’s right. Hezbollah, Al Qaeda…they’re separate entities with no connections to the governments of those nations.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:05 PM

And their murderous behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the Koran.
/

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Call me silly, but I’m a lot more concerned with the fresh bodies Muslims are piling up every day at the biding of the Koran than I am some bones found in Franklin’s basement.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:10 PM

their messiah will return to them once they murder my ass.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM

First of all I don’t think that part about “messiah” is an accurate description of muslim beliefs.

You’re also wrong about the second part…muslims don’t kill you because of your religion(unless you apostacize)…they make you pay a jizya tax.

You are spreading false propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Iranians? Syrians? Oh, I don’t know. Maybe it has something to do with their view of Americans as being The Great Satan and that their messiah will return to them once they murder my ass.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

…um, anyone want to take a crack at this?

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Uhuh… Did he dismember bodies in France as well??

Yes Islam needs to be destroyed.

It is a dangerous heresy and muslims often persecute Christians.

BUT, muslims need to be converted…not killed in bulk, like YOU barbarians advocate.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM

That sounds dangerously like what Saudi Arabia wants to do (i.e. force everyone to practice one religion).

Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

And their murderous behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the Koran.
/

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Or a book that paints a story of Jewish elders plotting to take over the world.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:12 PM

Maybe Franklin and all the other Founding Fathers were a bunch of occultists. But they created the best country this world has ever seen.

There is hardly a Muslim country that isn’t a Hell on Earth.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Or a book that paints a story of Jewish elders plotting to take over the world.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:12 PM

Again…+1

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:14 PM

You’re also wrong about the second part…muslims don’t kill you because of your religion(unless you apostacize)…they make you pay a jizya tax.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Is that like Harry Reid saying taxes are voluntary? He just doesn’t mention what happens if you don’t pay the tax. Just like you don’t mention what happens if you don’t pay the jizya.

Two of a kind.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:14 PM

You’re also wrong about the second part…muslims don’t kill you because of your religion(unless you apostacize)…they make you pay a jizya tax.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

But they’ll behead you if you dare to teach algebra to a girl in Afghanistan.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:16 PM

There is hardly a Muslim country that isn’t a Hell on Earth.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Correction: Turkey and Kosovo. The former is an actual successful democratic Muslim country. The latter is also a predominantly Muslim country and, curiously, one of the most pro-American nations in the world.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:16 PM

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:16 PM

That’s why I added the qualifier “hardly.”

But I have heard that Turkey is backsliding toward extremism.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Actually I was right to call BS on your attempts to portray the muslim world as waiting for a “messiah” and conquering the world and killing all non muslims.

Total BS lie.

There is nothing within sunni islam that says anything of the sort.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:19 PM

First of all I don’t think that part about “messiah” is an accurate description of muslim beliefs.

St.Olaf might want to study Muslim end-times beliefs. They believe Jesus will return to tell everyone that Mohammed was right and the Christians got it all wrong.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:22 PM

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:19 PM

Interesting. You protect the reputation of people who believe that mass killing of infidels by nuclear fire will bring back the Mahdi…

…and you call me a lib.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM

St.Olaf might want to study Muslim end-times beliefs.

sorry bro but that’s just not a true statement.

That is NOT what muslims believe.

Look I would like to get rid of islam just as much as anyone else….but what do you want to know the truth or lies? That’s not what muslims believe.

It’s propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Muslim End Times Philosophy

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Link didn’t work. I’ll try again.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:26 PM

St.Olaf might want to study Muslim end-times beliefs.
sorry bro but that’s just not a true statement.

That is NOT what muslims believe.

Look I would like to get rid of islam just as much as anyone else….but what do you want to know the truth or lies? That’s not what muslims believe.

It’s propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Then why does Walid Shoebat, an ex-Muslim terrorist, discuss it in his book Why I Left Jihad?

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:28 PM

One of many articles discussing how Dinner Jacket is a bloodthirsty lunatic who can’t wait for his nukes to get finished.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Muslim End Times

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Let’s try to clarify this and seperate the truth from the lies.

Supposedly it is the shia that believe in the return of mahdi etc. and NOT the sunni.

Do not shia’s make up only 5% of muslims worldwide?

Do you now see how ridiculous it is to say that ALL muslims want to reign nuclear fire and destroy the world and kill all non muslims?
It’s called propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

I give up. My links are not working. You can google it yourselves.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

But, God is able to make a prophecy fail if He chooses based upon the decisions that men make that have an effect on bringing what was said to pass.

TheMightyQuinn on December 21, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Isn’t that convenient.

I knew that if I waited awhile to read this, the thread would dissolve into the typical finger-pointing nonsense common on HA.

I’d guess about half the people here would feel just fine if this woman had an ‘A’ tattooed on her forehead (provided they could not burn her at the stake) and are rehashing tired old religious arguments to tie this story into their desire to impose their morality on the rest of us. As if this issue now ties into gay marriage, abortion and Festivus.

If you belong to a health club and forget to towel your sweat off of the equipment (a la George Costanza) the club will call or send you a letter to let you know they no longer want you as a member. They would not put your picture up in the locker room with a note telling other members how you broke the rules or broadcast your dismissal over the PA system.

But churches seem to think that heavy doses of public humiliation are necessary. Humiliation inflicted by people who have no moral authority other than they have the audacity to claim to be a ‘man of god.’ Humiliation inflicted after making sure everyone on the church staff had all the juicy details and had an opportunity to confront this woman. Never mind, most of them are not even remotely qualified to deal with these situations. They just happened to be in the church when someone who should know better, decided to gossip.

It is disgusting behavior and, as is the norm here, rather than admit the church f’ed up and is wrong in how they handled it, the usual suspects here would rather dust off the Bible and bring it all back to God; using that as the rationale to twist the situation (as they do any situation) to suit their needs.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Do you now see how ridiculous it is to say that ALL muslims want to reign nuclear fire and destroy the world and kill all non muslims?
It’s called propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

I could say the same about the Illuminati conspiracy stuff you go on about.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:33 PM

Do you now see how ridiculous it is to say that ALL muslims want to reign nuclear fire and destroy the world and kill all non muslims?

No more ridiculous than discussing gay agendas and FEMA death camps.

It’s called propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Yes. The Protocols are just that. As is Infowars. You know, all that stuff that you rely on for just about everything you think you know.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:33 PM

That is NOT what muslims believe.

Look I would like to get rid of islam just as much as anyone else….but what do you want to know the truth or lies? That’s not what muslims believe.

It’s propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:25 PM

You are wasting your time, buddy. The same people here who regularly chastise anyone who lumps all Christians together have zero problem with generalizing people of any other faith. Check that — they probably do not even consider it a ‘faith’ since it does not match their own indoctrination. That is how they rationalize labeling anyone who is, say Muslim, as a terrorist.

This group has been doing it for, oh, just over 2000 years.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

You’re right..they were not Christians. I won’t deny that.
Most of them were high level freemasons(read: Occult Satanists).

It is a fact that they dug up dozens of dismembered bodies under freemason/illuminati member Benjamin Franklin’s house from the period that he lived there. Look it up.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 3:06 PM

But we sound “ridiculous?” You seem to be painting with some broad brush strokes yourself.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

The dhimmis are crawling out of the woodwork.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:38 PM

The dhimmis are crawling out of the woodwork.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:38 PM

They always do.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Let’s try to clarify this and seperate the truth from the lies.

Supposedly it is the shia that believe in the return of mahdi etc. and NOT the sunni.

Do not shia’s make up only 5% of muslims worldwide?

Do you now see how ridiculous it is to say that ALL muslims want to reign nuclear fire and destroy the world and kill all non muslims?
It’s called propaganda.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Yep, but despite this, you want to convert everyone to Christianity.

Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 4:47 PM

That is how they rationalize labeling anyone who is, say Muslim, as a terrorist.

This group has been doing it for, oh, just over 2000 years.

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Actually it’s kind of ironic that you say that.

I am an Orthodox Christian and am debating an agnostic(Madison)…

I’m just saying: find out the truth.

If all muslims aren’t all bloodthirsty killers don’t say they are and don’t advocate killing them all.

Christianity preaches NON VIOLENCE..

A violent war with islam or whoever is not Christian teaching.

We don’t accept ANY earthly ruler as our king.

Our kingdom is not an earthly kingdom.

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Actually, anyone who has studied Gensis knows that it was written by at least four authors, so that is kind of impossible. (And before you go accusing them of being heathens, I’ll let you know that my Bible knowledge comes from Catholic HS religion classes).

The 4 Source theory no longer holds sway in Biblical textual and critical criticism.

Right now there doesn’t appear to be any one leading theory, although many believe the books had a final Deuteronimistic editing before they came to be in the form we now know them.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 4:52 PM

grdred944 on December 22, 2008 at 4:32 PM

While there are a couple of people adamantly defending all of the actions of the church…

…the large consensus of people here believe that the church was well within their rights to do what they had done UP TO the point where she left the church.

After that, it became none of the church’s business.

That all said, I believe the majority opinion is that both the woman AND the church are nuts.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Groan.

Disturb the Universe on December 22, 2008 at 4:55 PM

It is better to be martyred for our faith than to go against our faith and kill the invaders.

Often times the muslims who ruled the Orthodox countries treated us better than the Latin conquerors.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Like I said. Dhimmi.

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:57 PM

The 4 Source theory no longer holds sway in Biblical textual and critical criticism.

Right now there doesn’t appear to be any one leading theory, although many believe the books had a final Deuteronimistic editing before they came to be in the form we now know them.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 4:52 PM

That’s my understanding as well, but you and I can both agree that Moses didn’t write Genesis while receiving the Ten Commandments.

Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 5:16 PM

Yes, it morphed into a thread filled with TheMightyQueen and his acolytes calling for even more punishment, and condemning all the sin-filled heretics and heathens daring to speak their mind.

As someone who defends Christianity against the actual abuse that the media and society and militant atheists heaps on it, your support of this fundamentalist rhetoric just makes your beliefs look even more insane, and makes those who would tend to give you the benefit of the doubt dwindle.

MadisonConservative on December 21, 2008 at 5:42 PM

I am enjoying this wide-ranging discussion on God, homosexual marriage, Mohamedanism, the Illuminati, and theological inconsistancy, but it looks like most of the players have devolved into trench positions and are more interested in biting humor than further understanding of the others’ arguments.

That’s not really bad here, either.

But for those who say that the Christians are calling for more abuse to be heaped on the woman, back up a bit. As I said, she outted herself, so I really don’t think that she can call what that church is doing to her “persecution” and “crucifixtion” as she has done. These words are most often adopted by a speaker who is more interested in manipulating and inflaming opinion than expressing what he or she really thinks is going on.

Again, it makes me believe that she has mounted a manipulative rumor campaign designed to hurt her former church, that the church is simply trying to undo the effects of her malicious rummors, and that the woman has upped the ante by going to the press — thus undermining her original argument that this is about the church violating her privacy. I can’t prove this, but it seems more reasonable than arguing that her church, or the Christians on this site, are calling for her head.

This is what Allah’s post was about. Does anyone want to speak to it?

flicker on December 22, 2008 at 5:27 PM

Again, it makes me believe that she has mounted a manipulative rumor campaign designed to hurt her former church, that the church is simply trying to undo the effects of her malicious rummors, and that the woman has upped the ante by going to the press — thus undermining her original argument that this is about the church violating her privacy. I can’t prove this, but it seems more reasonable than arguing that her church, or the Christians on this site, are calling for her head.

This is what Allah’s post was about. Does anyone want to speak to it?

flicker on December 22, 2008 at 5:27 PM

The woman definitely pulled a bone-headed stunt when she took this issue to the press. That really undermined any/all argument she had about what the church was doing.

THAT SAID…

…it is obvious that the church continued to go after her after she made it abundantly clear she wanted nothing to do with them.

Now, it IS true that we know this only through her word, which may or may not be completely true (let’s face it, if you’re going to the press you’re going to spin the story to make yourself look better).

However, when contacted by the press, the pastor did NOT take that opportunity to state that they were no longer pursuing discipline against her. In fact, the strong implication in the brief statement quoted in the press is that they most definitely ARE pursuing her.

And the church has no business doing anything with someone who is no longer a member.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 5:36 PM

Did Moses part the Red Sea and was Pharaoh and his army swallowed up?

Red Sea parting:
For what it’s worth, Youtube also features a critic who says that there is a type of coral that grows in a wheel-and-axle-like shape, and warns about religious artifacts shysters.

While you can separate out the Bible as historical source and the Bible as Scripture, it does call for you to maintain a critical eye and be willing to acknowledge and accept your own beliefs or lack thereof.

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Matt and Illindiva,
As regards maintaining a critical eye, I’ve noticed a special skepticism reserved for the biblical records. King David was regarded for decades as a mythical figure, until an artifact referencing the “House of David” was found. It’s almost as if biblical accounts are automatically presumed to be false until corroborated by non-biblical sources. It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

Yes, the biblical authors each presented a particular point of view, reflecting their own experiences and tailoring the narrative to their intended audiences. That’s one of the characteristics that make the biblical accounts so authentic.

SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 5:55 PM

Arrgghh. I’m not too good with the hyperlink thingy. Try again.

SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 5:57 PM

It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

One of the most important principles of the scientific method and critical analysis is that you’re not trying to prove a hypothesis–rather, the goal of observation, analysis, and critique is to disprove the hypothesis. Essentially, if you go into an experiment or analysis with the goal of proving something, you put yourself at risk of reading the data or source in such a way as to make your theory correct while if you go about attempting to disprove a given theory, then you expose it to much more rigorous testing and analysis.

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 7:44 PM

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Nope…sorry…not worth my time or effort. I think I’m going to play Fallout 3 and commit some electronic violence…

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 7:48 PM

Nope…sorry…not worth my time or effort. I think I’m going to play Fallout 3 and commit some electronic violence…

Matt Helm on December 22, 2008 at 7:48 PM

Hunting rifle FTW!

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 8:08 PM

…um, anyone want to take a crack at this?

MadisonConservative on December 22, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Easy answer is – it’s bunk.

The more detailed answer is:

Ben Franklin was known to occasionally attend meetings of the Hellfire Club in England. The Hellfire Club was known for it’s mockery of religion – although there are many who claim this was done for shock value only.

Because of it’s secretive nature, the Hellfire Club was rumored to be a place where orgies and black masses where held (satan worship). However, there is absolutely no evidence that such occurred.

There is no record that Franklin was a member, and many historians believe that he was, in fact, a spy sent to find out what was happening there.

As for the “thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…”, in 1998 workers discovered the remains of TEN (not thousands of) bodies.

It was a bit difficult to find any kind of credible reporting on the issue (most of the google hits were from conspiracy or occult sites), but I did find an article from The Pennsylvania Gazette, the student newspaper for the University of Pennsylvania. The article tells us that the bodies where in all likelihood used for medical practice:

Then we hit pay dirt: “This work, which started in late 1997, has led to the discovery of the remains of 10 bodies hidden beneath the floor of the basement. The remains, 200-year-old bones, were buried at the time Franklin was living in the house. As most of the bones show signs of having been dissected, sawn, or cut with one skull having been drilled with several holes, the supposition is that they were the results of illegal medical experiments.”
Stop the press, indeed. Enter one William Hewson, husband of Mary “Polly” Stevenson, the daughter of Franklin’s landlady. “In the early 1770s, Dr. Hewson was in partnership with William Hunter who, with his brother John, was one of the founders of surgery in England. After a dispute with Hunter was resolved, with the help of Franklin, Hewson is believed to have established a rival school and lecture theatre in the Stevenson house.” And there, in the basement, according to a Westminster coroner, Hewson apparently buried those “anatomical specimens” — a prudent move, since the corpses had undoubtedly been obtained by illegal grave-robbing.
“The discovery is seen as providing an important insight into a time when significant developments were beginning to take place” in surgery, the Web site notes. “As someone who helped Polly and Hewson, Franklin can be seen as part of that history. There is, of course, no suggestion that Franklin was a grave robber or a participant in the lectures.” Whew.

One more point – while I didn’t do an exhaustive search, all of the articles I looked at that painted Franklin as a Satanist used the same external source – an article in Associated Content, which is an open-content web-site. Their motto is: “Associated Content is an Open Content Network.
Anyone can submit content on any subject in any format. ”

In other words, it’s a blog.

So, on the one hand we have an article in the UPenn newspaper documenting that the bodies (10, not thousands) where used for medical reasons.

On the other hand, we have a blog article written by…,well…,by some person with the username MF.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 8:20 PM

-heh-

The people who run/oversee Franklin’s London Home are so intent on covering up the remains of thousands ten people that they have an exhibit of the bones currently going on!

You can find this information on the Benjamin Franklin House homepage:

Throughout October, the full collection of human and animal remains from William Hewson’s anatomy school, run at 36 Craven Street in the late 18th century, will be on display to the public for the first time at Benjamin Franklin House, accompanied by information on Hewson’s life and times. These grisly remains were uncovered during excavation of the basement of Benjamin Franklin House in 1998. A special history of medicine lecture series runs on Mondays throughout the month, while Saturday 18th October sees an adult talk plus free activities for kids.

Wednesday 1st – Friday 31st December, exhibition open daily 12-5pm (except Tuesdays), £7/£5 (includes Historical Experience show)

Oh, here is why Olaf might have gone from 10 to thousands (from the link from the above mentioned homepage to a page about the exhibit):

During the conservation of 36 Craven Street, excavation of the basement uncovered over 1,200 pieces of human and animal bones in what would once have been the House’s garden. Glass slides, ceramics, mercury and other material found, as well as the marks of saws and other instruments, suggest that these were the remains of William Hewson’s anatomy school, run from the house between 1772 and Hewson’s death of septicaemia in 1774. For the first time since their discovery ten years ago, a variety of the larger bone fragments, including skull and limb bones showing instrument marks, will be on display at Benjamin Franklin House, along with contextual information and images on Hewson’s life and contributions to anatomy and surgery.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 8:28 PM

Ben Franklin was a known satan worshipper and thousands of dismembered bodies were found in his basement…

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM

To sum up:
1) Franklin was NOT a satan worshipper.
2) the remains of 10 bodies where found, not thousands (there were 1,200 bones found, but since the human body contains something like 350 bones, there weren’t thousands of bodies)
3) they were found in the basement of the CURRENT structure, but it would have been the GARDEN during Franklin’s lifetime
4) Franklin wasn’t living at the house at the time the remains were buried – it was the home of an anatomy school.

Other than that, there’s nothing wrong with Olaf’s statement.

/sarc

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 8:36 PM

Huh – all that work and nobody to read it.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 9:39 PM

Umm..no those aren’t bones from the Hellfire Club buried in my basement.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 9:52 PM

Umm..no those aren’t bones from the Hellfire Club buried in my basement.

SaintOlaf on December 22, 2008 at 9:52 PM

Nope, they were the bones of cadavers used by William Hewson’s anatomy school and were buried in the garden.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 10:07 PM

Matt and Illindiva,
As regards maintaining a critical eye, I’ve noticed a special skepticism reserved for the biblical records. King David was regarded for decades as a mythical figure, until an artifact referencing the “House of David” was found. It’s almost as if biblical accounts are automatically presumed to be false until corroborated by non-biblical sources. It’s just as unscholarly to uncritically presume they are false as it is to uncritically presume they are true. The advantage to presuming they are true is that further archeological discoveries tend to vindicate the believer.

Yes, the biblical authors each presented a particular point of view, reflecting their own experiences and tailoring the narrative to their intended audiences. That’s one of the characteristics that make the biblical accounts so authentic.

SheofTwoMinds on December 22, 2008 at 5:55 PM

I think that most people think that David is a historical character although probably more like a warlord and tribal chieftan than a king. I also think that Moses was probably a historical figure.

I do think that the trouble is when you get to the characters before Moses, especially the beginning of Genesis. I’d suspect that most people would argue that Adam, Eve, and Noah were not historical figures.

Illinidiva on December 22, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Huh – all that work and nobody to read it.

Religious_Zealot on December 22, 2008 at 9:39 PM

Actually…

…it didn’t take much work at all.

In fact, it took me about 10 minutes to put most of that together.

Religious_Zealot on December 23, 2008 at 9:42 AM