Aww: The official atheist/Christian reconciliation post
posted at 8:30 pm on December 19, 2008 by Allahpundit
Via Breitbart, a palate cleanser to wash away all the bad vibes of the past few days.
Here’s where the love begins, people. It’s time to heal.
Update (Ed): As a believer, I’m impressed with Penn’s message and the acknowledgment of the love behind true evangelization. However, I suspect Penn may regret offering this encouragement before too long.
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Most people aren’t strong enough accept that when its over, its over.
Speakup on December 19, 2008 at 11:58 PM
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, why would you ever want Bin Laden to escape Hell? And how could you accept a God willing to forgive Bin Laden?
Sign of the Dollar on December 19, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Yeah, but they didn’t know as much about the world as we know today.
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 12:06 AM
How is that strength?
spmat on December 20, 2008 at 12:09 AM
I was thinking that too. Penn is usually a lot more fluent as a speaker. You could see how much this little incident touched him.
Bad camera angle though. I hate looking up people’s nostrils.
Rosmerta on December 20, 2008 at 12:09 AM
To refer to human beings as sheep is to slander what it means to be human. Man is more than an animal, and he certainly does not require a shepherd.
Sign of the Dollar on December 20, 2008 at 12:10 AM
You are kidding. The promise of eternal life or, dones, done.
Outrage in 3.2.1…
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 12:13 AM
I don’t see why it would take strength. It would just mean focusing on living a good life, and not preparing for some afterlife.
MadisonConservative on December 20, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Of course you don’t the finality doesn’t occur to most people right away, especially when they’re perspective is from the alternative.
What do you tell a friend who’s loved one has passed away, oh well, gone now, or too bad about your wife being raped and murdered the guy that did will rot in..well maybe not or watching the life drain away from a man who saved your life many times, been nice to know ya, don’t worry about the light it just means your about to die, forever.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 12:22 AM
muyoso on December 19, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Evolution is science? Darwin’s Theory has three main postulates, can you name all three and give an actual proof for each one? Show your work.
p.s. I’m talking macroevolution not micro, do you know the difference?
celtnik on December 20, 2008 at 12:22 AM
That’s true. It’s the loudmouths from whatever camp that get the attention.
ddrintn on December 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM
That’s where the concept of “tact” comes in.
MadisonConservative on December 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM
^ I’d have to say also that, even as a Christian, when conservative Christians look on the Republican party as their own special preserve, it’s just asking to be marginalized. I’m not voicing a RINO position there, either.
ddrintn on December 20, 2008 at 12:28 AM
That would be a monumental amount easier if outrage and prejudice weren’t mandatory belief perpetuating components.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Very true and no small amount of strength of itself.
Tact=lie to help people get through it.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 12:33 AM
What is happening to Hot Air? Nuts, bigots and atheists. Good grief, its like Kos or Huffington; has the Obamessiah taken over your minds? This thread has the richest trove of losers I’ve ever seen here. Is this some sort of set up or a leftist conspiracy flood? Come on , it’s a joke right?
Mason on December 20, 2008 at 12:35 AM
JGap, the difference is believing in God’s law as written and believing in the literalist take on creation. Little had changed in scientific knowledge from the time of Abraham to the time of Christ. It does not bother me if I was created as I am or evolved from a pool of primordial ooze or am the offspring of apes and aliens, I am still the child of God. We as men cannot claim to know the designs of the Lord only that we are a part of them. I find it highly conceited to claim we were created in His image. Yes we have the knowledge of good and evil but that gets into a whole other range of theology.
My email is in the profile on my site if you would like an extended conversation.
goat on December 20, 2008 at 12:38 AM
*wondering where I fit in…”nuts” and “losers” sounds like me…*
ddrintn on December 20, 2008 at 12:40 AM
You raise an interesting point. Religious, and the lack thereof, must be a joke.
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Exactly, microevolution is a fact as proven by Darwin and others since. Macroevolution still has many gaps and is still a theory but a very strong one. I believe evolution is a gift from God to enable His creation to survive, part of the grand design we are just beginning to understand if we ever do at all.
goat on December 20, 2008 at 12:43 AM
ReligiousReligion, and the lack thereof, must be a joke.FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Terribly sorry. If you click the little “X” in the top right corner of your screen, you’ll be linked to a site that might suit your desires more aptly.
MadisonConservative on December 20, 2008 at 12:50 AM
The Big Sleep
Pelayo on December 20, 2008 at 12:53 AM
Obviously, you ain’t buying any of that reconciliation stuff.
Pelayo on December 20, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Huh? GOOD – GOD = the letter “O”.
What does Oprah’s magazine have to do with this?
hepcat on December 20, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Off the top off my head:
Terri Schiavo
Blue laws
Gambling laws
Gay marriage
The stem cell minutiae
Prayer in schools
Notice i leave out abortion, because there’s a logical non-religious argument to be made that human life begins at conception [even though I can nuance that fact quite a bit].
toliver on December 20, 2008 at 1:01 AM
If your belief is pagan, after 1k years you come back, if your worthy.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Wait a minute… when I saw P&T perform at the Rio in ’06 I was selected to pick a joke out of the book but didn’t get to keep the joke book. Then again, I didn’t “hover” afterward.
It’s a great show–highly recommended. I was also glad to find out firsthand that Jillette was one of the few professional performers that was a normal-sized human male rather than a 5’4″ Oompa-Loompa with a Napoleon complex like 99% of the other actors/musicians I’ve met.
ScottMcC on December 20, 2008 at 1:02 AM
How do Neanderthal, Cro Magnon, Homo Habilis, and Homo Erectus and the other human types fit in with creation as told in Genesis?
Genesis literalists will never reconcil anything as long as thay keep trying to claim that evolution is some kind of faux religious dogma. The lack of scientific understanding is obvious.
As recently as the mid 1950s, Neanderthals were thought of as a link between modern humans and the early ape like ancestors. New discoveries have shown that Neanderthal was a separate branch and even lived in the same regions with early humans. The theories in evolution science will be modified with new discoveries.
Pelayo on December 20, 2008 at 1:13 AM
The stem cell issue has been rendered moot by the advances in adult, umbilical, and other stem cell research and the utter failure of EMBRYONIC stem cells to accomplish anything beyond tumors.
Marriage is an institution built on the procreation and care of children, homosexuality is about sex.In most cases they have all the legal rights of married hetero couples but it is still wrong.
Prayer in schools is a personal thing, a child can pray anytime they wish as long as they don’t disrupt others.
If someone wants to waste their money gambling I have no problem with that.
Terry Schiavo, I had mixed feelings on that one and still do though I do not think the Feds should have gotten involved in a family decision.
goat on December 20, 2008 at 1:17 AM
Yeah, there are logical, non-religious arguments against gay marriage as well. Also, marriage is an ancient institution based on certain principles that there is no reason to change. I’m fine with civil unions, but I think the courts are tied up too much already with divorces so I I’d prefer keeping failed civil unions out of the courts. In addition to a different name, civil unions shouldn’t be identical to marriage.
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 1:26 AM
It’s a funny thing. I know God exists, because of a couple of experiences I’ve had in my life that would have to have been incredible coincidences otherwise.
capitalist piglet on December 20, 2008 at 1:28 AM
For a self-described atheist, Penn has a very good grasp on what it is to be a good Christian.
Sterling Holobyte on December 20, 2008 at 1:56 AM
this is awkward as hell.
wtf?
someone gives him a bible and looks him in the eyes and Penn feels some kind of supernatural mysticism that moves him so deeply but not deep enough to conclude the book the guy gave him isnt full of Bullsh*t?
this makes… no sense…
Drunk Report on December 20, 2008 at 2:11 AM
I never want to be that close to Penn Jillette’s face ever again.
Love the Bulls#it show, man, but you really need to back up a bit.
Black Adam on December 20, 2008 at 2:41 AM
You’re referencing an analogy, not a literal statement.
It says in the Psalms: ‘What is man, that thou art mindful of him…? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea….’
aengus on December 20, 2008 at 2:47 AM
Here, read this. Now your brain is like an inflated balloon with another puff of air blown in. A little large for the bit of knowledge you have gained.
Mallard T. Drake on December 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM
Being in showbiz, Penn must not experience sincere and honest people very often. That seems to be what impresses him about “the guy.” It was like it was the first time he had ever experienced those qualities before in another human.
To paraphrase: “I was impressed by the sincerity with which this guy was warning me about the truck bearing down on me. Of course, I don’t believe him for a second, but he really made an impression.” Whatever.
BTW, we can do without the lip-smacking.
Mallard T. Drake on December 20, 2008 at 2:57 AM
And what are we, chopped liver?
I know many, many believers. That he has met ONE, I should be impressed with his recounting of the ONE?
So much bullshit.
Ugly on December 20, 2008 at 4:25 AM
What the hell is wrong with you people? He goes out of his way to say that he respects the fact that someone is sharing deeply held beliefs in a polite manner, even though he doesn’t share those beliefs.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend that Penn liked and respected the man for politely sharing his beliefs without being defensive or confrontational even though he strongly disagreed with those beliefs?
Hollowpoint on December 20, 2008 at 4:32 AM
In my experience atheists are mentally inferior and have very few healthy relationships.
Messed up enough to claim that they know that they have proven a universal negative and wholly reject the hard core historical evidence to support the claims of Jesus Christ written in the bible (in many thousands of identical manuscripts over the centuries and in extra-biblical accounts).
TheMightyQuinn on December 20, 2008 at 5:53 AM
For someone who knows “there is no God”, it would seem he would know where Psalms is in the Bible. I mean, if he “knows.”
Benjamin9 on December 20, 2008 at 5:59 AM
Then, my friend you have not studied Evolution which teaches (and I use that phrase very loosely) things that are in direct conflict with the creation. Man was not created by God but “evolved” as did all the other animals and therefore holds no special place in the creation. Man along with the creation is “Evolving” to a higher state of being? How is this possible when every thing else in the Universe is in a state of decay? Where are the missing links? Why can’t species that all have a common ancestor mate? Why are plants different than animals if life started with a single source and evolved? Have you studied the “fossil records”? They are VERY very weak indeed! In some cases they were made up out of whole cloth! Do you know that most major scientists today are starting to doubt Darwin and are leaning to a Designer for the Universe?
Don’t look to the media but dig! God Bless!
sabbott on December 20, 2008 at 6:46 AM
All I know is that if the Atheists are right and there really is no God then no harm no foul for believing in God because once your dead your dead and that’s it. Where as if the Atheists are wrong and there really is a God and life after death then they’re screwed for all eternity.
I also love how atheists love to preach about all the bad stuff the various religious groups and churches have done in the past (The Crusades, religious terrorism, child abuse etc, etc) yet never mention any of the good stuff they have done and continue to do (Charity work, Education, Counseling, Medicine and medical work, etc, etc).
I also like to note that the five biggest mass murders in history were all atheists (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Idi Armin).
So really as the bible says “He who is without sin should cast the first stone”.
I don’t have a problem with Atheists or Atheism. As far as I am concerned it is a free country and they can believe what they like. I just wish they would afford the same level of dignity and respect toward people who don’t share their beliefs that they demand from everyone else.
Dreadnought223 on December 20, 2008 at 6:52 AM
Christianity is a learned religion. To claim oneself as a member of His body without learning what that means (from the Bible) is little more than hopes and dreams.
Which means that criticizing Christians for our beliefs without reading the Bible (with an aim to understand)is just a guessing game.
Arguing against anything without first making a sincere effort to understand it is pointless at best and arrogant at worst.
All that said, since Christianity is a learned religion, there will be those who have learned only the most rudimentary lessons, whose emotions overtake their knowledge, and therefore brow-beat passersby with half-truths and general kookiness. But…
If you are not a Christian and some kindly person asks you to join him or her to study the Bible, I recommend you take them up on the offer, even if your only motive is to find fault and prove its fallibility.
What’s to lose? ;)
pugwriter on December 20, 2008 at 7:30 AM
No great fan of atheists, but I think most of the smaller New Testaments (pocket versions) also have the Psalms and Proverbs in the beginning of them. I could easily see how someone who wasn’t very familiar with The Bible might make the mistake.
Now having said that, I don’t think Penn should ever say he’s making a learned opinion about the fallacy of Christian teaching. He simply doesn’t believe.
hawkdriver on December 20, 2008 at 7:33 AM
“Man is more than an animal, and he certainly does not require a shepherd.”
I find this comment extremely interesting, but in reality, one part of it HAS to be wrong. If you are of faith, then the second part is wrong in that you need God as your Shepherd. If you are an evolution supporter, than the first part is incorrect, as we are animals on this planet with the ability to reason, which sets us apart from the other creatures. It’s an interesting statment, but can only be partially true.
rayvet on December 20, 2008 at 7:36 AM
Bah! Humbug!
OldEnglish on December 20, 2008 at 8:21 AM
That was kinda my point. I believe he thinks himself intellectual by nature, and many Atheists that I know try to use their intellect/reasoning to disprove Christians. An intellectual would want to examine all sides to form an opinion. In forming this, I would think one would have to have contact with the Bible, old and new. To believe just to believe, anything, is dangerous and stupid.
Benjamin9 on December 20, 2008 at 8:35 AM
Not to familiar with parables, eh ?
You could not be more wrong in your opinion.
ambuldog on December 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Anarchist, eh?
jgapinoy on December 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM
I see atheists use lines like this all the time, and I find it to be remarkably arrogant.
Because it supposes that people of faith, whatever that faith may be, are just too gullible or fear-driven, and thus desperately cling to their religion (and guns, perhaps bitterly) because of that.
Nonsense. MOST people of faith (not just Christians, but Jews, and Muslims, and Hindus, etc.) are just ordinary folks who go about their day pretty much EXACTLY the same as atheists do. All that’s different is that they’ve found something else, not because they’re stupid or fearful of what lies beyond this mortal coil, but rather because for whatever reason they’ve found some measure of truth in a particular religion and that speaks to them on an intimate level.
Vyce on December 20, 2008 at 9:18 AM
There is a Seinfeld episode that I often think about when I think about sharing my Faith. (Something I should do a lot more of in the manner that this gentleman did with Penn.)
Elaine is spending the night at her boyfriend’s who is supposedly a Christian. They are up the next morning and he asks her to steal the neighbors morning paper. She refuses and asks him why he doesn’t do it. He replies, “You’re going to Hell anyway.” Elaine is later complaining to Jerry that if he believed she was going to Hell, he should try to tell her the truth if he cared!
It’s all pretty funny acted out, but what a great point. The same point Penn is making. If we know that rejecting Christ = rejecting God and an eternity in Hell, shouldn’t we be reaching out with Christ’s Love much much more?!
Merry Christmas!
Thanx for the Post AP.
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Of course you do,its mandatory.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 9:26 AM
theories?? I thought there was only 1 theory of evolution. its clear that no data could ever dispute evolution to the true believers. all data is interpreted in light of theory. Cambrian explosion? it ‘sheds light upon evolution’.
science has become atheism thanks to evolution.
2. John M. Archibald, “The Eocyte Hypothesis and the Origin of Eukaryotic Cells,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Published online before print December 17, 2008, doi: 10.1073/pnas.0811118106.
we don’t even understand the basics, but evolution HAS GOTS TO BE TRUE…praise hairygod darwin….because the alternative….God and creation..is UNTHINKABLE!!!
right4life on December 20, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Well if you say so that must make it true! Who are you again?
Do you know what opinions are like?
Reconciling Atheist to Believers, what would be the point? I don’t see people converting from either side.
We leave our mortal coil behind. Our Souls are not made up of MATTER as we know it. How would a person’s Soul decay if it is not made up of MATTER Now you can argue that you are what you eat, and that all you are, and the purpose of your existence, is to go through life a by product of feeding your face. That is fine with me. BUT I don’t aspire to that lowest common denominator.
Dr Evil on December 20, 2008 at 10:02 AM
More outrage, its necessary for the long life of your choice of Religion.
Are you (deeply) outraged because a restaurant menu has an extra item or that item is unusual? Probably not but if someone doesn’t practice your faith or worse disagrees, that’s outrageous and if your faith hasn’t felt oppression or has reason for outrage its unlikely to last thousands of years.
I appreciate Protestant Christianity, I believe that without it we wouldn’t be far different from Islam but remember what it took to reform the church, a third of Europe died, now that’s outrageous.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 10:23 AM
Human nature gives us mechanisms to survive and prejudice that tells us my way is better than your way is one of those mechanisms.
Both, people of faith and people who need more than faith or just don’t agree with what people of faith believe can be prejudiced just the same, both can be outraged to protect extend their beliefs just the same, its not the individual belief, its human nature that provides the animus.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 10:34 AM
With Biblical literalists as “friends,” Christianity needs no enemies.
Byron on December 20, 2008 at 10:40 AM
The majority of Christians are more like that “good man” than those that are sort of in-your-face proselytizing. Most lead by example and live quietly.
I really don’t understand the resentment and almost Christian-phobia of many folks.
On that note God Bless everyone and Merry Christmas.
roux on December 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM
FTW!!!
abobo on December 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Non sequitur. I’m pretty darned sure Islam is false, without knowing where every verse or hadith is. Once you learn enough of something to make a judgement, you don’t necessarily have to learn all the details afterwards. (And besides, he’s probably rejecting a belief in God on a priori grounds anyway.)
Tzetzes on December 20, 2008 at 11:08 AM
… because it means that God can forgive *me* as well. A *lot* of people convince themselves that they are *so* bad, that their actions have been *so* vile, that God would never forgive them. Knowing God as the Bible and Holy Spirit reveals him, though, we know that He can and *wants* to forgive *everyone* that will accept Him.
I hope I don’t anger any believers here, but for the sake of comparison, you may consider that Saul was the New Testament version of bin Laden – yet even he was converted, forgiven, and went on to be the Paul who has had such a profound impact on the resulting church.
Yes, if bin Laden were to truly become a believer in Jesus, ask God for forgiveness of his despicable sins, even bin Laden would be forgiven.
Note that this doesn’t mean he’s not still responsible for the consequences of his actions from an earthly standpoint.
Karla Faye Tucker became a Christian while in jail, and a great many people that met and talked with her believe that her conversion was genuine. It did not, however, mean that she was able to avoid the death sentence for her crimes, even though she may be in Heaven now.
And what true Christian wouldn’t rejoice over that (or bin Laden making it to Heaven), even if their human side struggles with it a bit. Thankfully, we christians don’t have the responsibility for making those eternal reservations for other folks – God gets to do that. :)
Midas on December 20, 2008 at 11:11 AM
With the exception of parayer in schools, those are issues with moral components that could have pro and con on whatever side of the religious divide. Just becuase someone objects to something on religious grounds doesn’t mean that peron is necessarily shoving his/her religion down your throat. If we go that route, any “moral” objections to whatever can carry the label of religious coercion so long as the objector belongs to a church.
ddrintn on December 20, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Without the Bible being literal, there is no Christianity! What man is smart enough to figure out what parts of the Bible God really meant and what parts He didn’t? We Bible literalists (new word!) are misunderstood, but then again, Jesus said we would be.
There are some unpleasant realities in the Bible. The good news is there is good news! Jesus came to save the world!
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Well said and Merry Christmas to you too!
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 11:15 AM
I ditto that as well!
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 11:17 AM
People get offended by what he said about the guy being sane and religious.
Look at the Westboro Baptist Church people.
Now I’m not gonna go out there defending Penn that much. But it was a nice message overall if you actually remember the show him and Teller did on religion.
Although, the environmental show they did was hilarious.
scrubbiedude on December 20, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Very gracious Penn.
Now read the damn Book!
rcl on December 20, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Wrong. What Jesus knew is that literalists would always misunderstand. That’s why he spoke in parables.
Byron on December 20, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Maybe I spoke too soon. Depends on what you mean by Biblical literalists. What do you mean by that is why Jesus spoke in parables? Matthew 13:10-17 says:
Jesus didn’t say the Bible wasn’t literal. He said many people won’t accept it. He spoke plainly to His disciples, and so it is to this day.
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 12:00 PM
Let us make the dbate simple:
Christians chose to believe… atheist don’t.
If Christians are wrong when they die… so be it.
If atheist are wrong when they die… oops!
It is just a matter of choice… personally I choose to believe. God is to plain to see to just ignore.
Romans 1:20 “For God’s invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”
Steve_Montana on December 20, 2008 at 12:16 PM
You realize that just about every topic you listed there are valid, non-religious arguments also?
Terri Schiavo
Here we have several non-religious issues – living wills, who gets to decide if someone lives or dies, what is the criteria for being beyond recovering (or at least living)?
Gambling laws
Well you have the corruption angle: the argument that large scale gambling brings in organized crime, higher drug use and prostitution; you also have the argument that gambling takes unfair advantage of the poor; and also the issue of gambling as a ‘disease.’
Gay marriage
I know several atheists who are against gay marriage because gays can’t procreate.
The stem cell minutiae
Well, the biggest problem for this issue is the intentional blurring of the issue. First, there needs to be a distinction made between EMBRYONIC and ADULT stem cells. Second, it needs to be noted that ALL advances in medical knowledge and cures has been done with ADULT stem cells. (Thus, why pour money into something that has shown absolutely NO promise?). Lastly, President Bush’s freezing of use of EMBRYONIC stem cell research only affected government sponsored research. Any/all private research into it could and can continue.
Prayer in schools
I’m not sure why you brought this up since it’s pretty much a dead issue. That said, if a student wants to pray in school, they have the right to do so. That’s not so much a religious issue as it is a First Amendment issue.
Now, you may not LIKE or AGREE with the arguments, but they are valid, non-religious arguments nonetheless.
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 12:16 PM
What do you see in an “O”?
A hole. A void. A nothing.
Thus, the “0″.
newton on December 20, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Being a giant reconciled hypocrite, this is against my better judgment but, oh well.
No, it just means you’ve spent your one life, in servitude.
I can go against my better judgment in this case because I know what I say here won’t make a (small) hill of beans compared to the natural forces hardwired inside of virtually everyone.
Speakup on December 20, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Penn’s perception of Christians, or in this case religious believers, is interesting. How many times did he express his surprise that this Christian wasn’t crazy? Where has this perception come from, because I have been around Christians all my life, and have rarely met a crazy one.
DFCtomm on December 20, 2008 at 12:47 PM
There are several million Christians in this country.
Westboro has about 50 members (most of them are family members).
Thus I put to you that maybe one form of insanity is to judge several million by the actions of 50.
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I wonder if it would have been possible for the guy to get the point any more slowly. I’m thinking not.
Kevin M on December 20, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Penn is not us, he is widely known and has probably been the focus of many, many people’s wrath. I imagine he also gets a lot of hate mail. Penn probably has been confronted by some rabid believers after a show many times.
Pelayo on December 20, 2008 at 1:04 PM
If the worlds view of Chrisitanity as nothing more than “servitude”… then they are missing the mark big time.
I have been on both sides.
For me being a Christian is a life of joy and peace. It is a life of hope and balance. It is a life FREE from the bondage of sin.
I once was a servant of sin… now I am a servant of internal peace.
Christianity is NOT a religion… it is a relationship with your Creator.
You don’t pratice it… your live it.
Steve_Montana on December 20, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Because I need a God who will forgive me. God doesn’t judge on a curve. The evil deeds of Bin Laden are no more hell sentencing than my own. I would be deluding myself if I let myself think that I was good enough to escape the wrath of God for my trespasses in sins.
Part of the curse of Adam still reigns in the hearts of men. They still hold to delusions of grandier that they are sovereign over their own choices and refuse to give glory to the God of creation.
shick on December 20, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Bib Laden will end up in hell only because he is spiritually dead.
News flash… Sin is not your ticket to hell. Spiritual death is.
Read John Chapter 3 in the New Testiment… you can follow what Jesus said all the way to the book of Revelations.
It is what Christianity is… spiritual life vs spiritual death.
Steve_Montana on December 20, 2008 at 1:25 PM
During a conference at seminary, I heard a professor of Indian (country) heritage that if Gandhi was not in heaven then he didn’t want to go to heaven.
I felt sorry for the guy because he obviously worships Gandhi more than he worships God.
The POINT of heaven is that we will be back into a whole, right and joyful relationship with God. God is the focus, not who else is there.
If I saw Bin Laden (or Hitler) in heaven, I would simply assume that they had repented and sought God’s forgiveness.
As Christians we are told to celebrate the return of the lost sheep, and it shouldn’t matter how far lost they were.
Last thought – as far as heaven and who’s there and not there, I love what Max Lucado said about this in his book When God Whispers Your Name:
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 1:27 PM
Another way to look at it is this. God is perfect. In order to live in His presence (Heaven) without it killing you, you also need to be perfect! No one is since we are all born into the sin of Adam. Jesus is God and lived a perfect life. When you, I, Bin Laden, accepts His payment on the cross for our imperfection, God then washes us clean so we can then live in His presence forever!
No one can earn it. There is only one way for man to attain Heaven. Through accepting God’s gift of His Son Jesus! It’s good news! It’s a gift! No works. Just believe.
The offer is open to everyone!
John 3:16-18
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Everyone knows John 3:16, but read and consider verses 17 and 18…
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 1:35 PM
I don’t doubt that he has people that dislike him. For the record, those who might send him hatemail are not of us either.
I can imagine some have approached him in love telling him that he must repent. This is not arrogance but love. For those who are saved are not saved because their is anything intrinsically good within themselves. They have been saved by grace.
shick on December 20, 2008 at 1:37 PM
I’ve caught a couple of episodes of ‘Bulls***’ and I came away thinking that Penn and Teller are intelligent, thoughtful people…
…yet they don’t really do much examination of what they believe.
The shows I watched all kind of followed the same script – if they agreed with the subject they would have a handful of experts on to make the point and then would show a couple of real, real out there whackos who never really made an argument, they just acted weird.
Now, if the disagreed with the subject they did just the opposite.
There was no real back and forth, no evidence that they even tried to find articulate, respected experts who disagreed with them.
And the fact that the man doesn’t know that Psalms is in the Hebrew Bible just shows that when it comes to religion, here again he hasn’t actually sat down to investigate alternative views.
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Excellent post. Don’t forget the verses that proceed those verses.
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” – John 3:5-8
It’s the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin. Without that interviening work man would have no hope.
shick on December 20, 2008 at 1:47 PM
AMEN! Jesus made the point again in John 6:44-45
And yet we must do our part and accept the invitation. 2 Peter 3:8-10. A promise and a warning:
It’s the Holy Spirit who draws and God who provided a wonderful savior because of His untold love! Yet, God is a just God and judgment is coming. The only escape is through Jesus for which I am eternally grateful.
Hebrews 12:2. Emphasis mine.
Amazing that God Himself would lay down His life with JOY because He knew that many would be saved through Him. Yes. Amazing doesn’t start to describe it!
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM
We are not speaking of Islam. And unless you are of Arabic decent, there is no reason for you to know the Qu’ran. Nor for Penn. But living in the West, he should know more about the Bible, even if by osmosis.
Psalms would be a rather important book of the Bible, written anciently. A person making such choices(God no God), I would think, should have at least a knowledge, a working knowledge of the Bible, otherwise how can you make such decisions? I think he is confusing religion with God, much like many Atheists do.
Benjamin9 on December 20, 2008 at 2:11 PM
Speaking plainly and speaking literally are not equivalents. When it is said that Jesus is the Lamb of God the statement is not literal, but the meaning is clear. If it is not accepted, it is not the literal words that are being rejected, which are obviously metaphorical, but the meaning of the words. You quote from the book of Matthew, which you should remember was addressed to a Jewish audience. One of its major themes is the distinction between the literal letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Literalism is presented there as a form of idolatry, because it placed the specific words found in Jewish law above their fuller meaning. Jesus’s teaching throughout is aimed at making that distinction and thus showing the shallowness and folly of literalism. He was right about that, and the lesson goes for the fetishism of words found among today’s Biblical literalists, which unfortunately makes religion appear shallow also. The truths of religion cannot be fully captured in the plain meanings of words, but literalism is a human conceit that pretends otherwise. That poetic, non-literal expression turns out to be the closest we can come is a matter of the limitations of human language, not of religious truth itself. Literalism is a hubristic denial of that fact, an attempt to reduce God to human scale.
Byron on December 20, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Its funny that most of the people who feel the need to argue about literalism and Biblical context have no problem picking “judge not lest ye be judged” out of Matthew and – ignoring context – applying it to absolutely everything, regardless of whether or not we’re Jewish.
Ryan Gandy on December 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM
I’m glad I asked for clarification. If I am understanding you correctly, we are in agreement. A relationship with God is a relationship, not a set of rules and laws. Jesus died and nailed the law to the cross. Yet, the law does show us that we cannot attain holiness through our works, but rather brings us to the work of Christ!
When I say the Bible is literal, I mean all of it can be trusted as the Word of God. Adam and Eve were real people, not stories that have an important illustration as some claim. To discern what is literally literal in the Bible and what is metaphorically literal is usually pretty obvious. When it’s not, believers have the Holy Spirit which guides us into all truth!
Ordinary1 on December 20, 2008 at 3:09 PM
So you’re saying that millions if not billions of people throughout history who lived good lives but whom god didn’t bother to inform of his existence, (like Native Americans), will be condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire? God is keen on condemning innocent people because of his own laziness or oversight?
This is one of the troubling bits that turn me off of religion and reveal the fallacy. If there is only one true religion rewarded in the afterlife, then God is a wicked bastard for not revealing himself to everybody rather than just a select group of people in a select place at a select time.
And if God is a wicked bastard, the people who worship him are also inherently wicked.
That may seem inflamatory, but it’s true, and if people don’t like it there is an easy enough solution that would paint God in a better light: If you’re wrong and there isn’t only, “one true religion”, then God doesn’t have to be a wicked bastard, although there is quite a lot of cooberating evidence in the bible.
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 4:09 PM
What’s more, we’re told that God encourages the practice of logic and reason, but then he hides gazillions of fossils and other evidence which proves the evolution of species. But now we’re told by biblical literalists that god planted false evidence. Why? Why would a so-called kind, good and forgiving God provide and encourage the tools and evidence to deduce evolution with the sole intent to lead people down the wrong path so that he can condemn them to an eternity in the lake of fire.
The answer—if this is what the literalists really want us to believe—can only be that God isn’t a good, kind or forgiving creature. He’s an evil bastard that is intentionally, through great effort, trying to steer people down the wrong path so that he can spite them and smite them.
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Matthew was addressed to CHRISTIANS – who used to be Jews.
Thus any and all CHRISTIANS will find Matthew applicable to their lives.
Religious_Zealot on December 20, 2008 at 4:45 PM
How does an immortal lay down his life? Are you saying God is dead? I think you are. No Amazing does not describe it. Ridiculous does quite well though.
ronsfi on December 20, 2008 at 4:50 PM
So to summarize: Gandhi, having not followed Jesus Christ, is in hell along with many of Bin Laden’s victims on 9/11, but Bin Laden himself could still go to heaven?
Sounds like a great place. /sarc
FloatingRock on December 20, 2008 at 4:50 PM
Interesting perspective, Penn.
LimeyGeek on December 20, 2008 at 4:57 PM
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