Ultimate heart-ache: Michelle dumps on atheists
posted at 1:57 pm on December 18, 2008 by Allahpundit
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But affectionately. Sort of. Except for her suggestion that believers treat them like “trolls.” Heh.
I think she’s referring specifically to the sort of jackassery going on at the capitol in Washington, of which neither I nor the other conservative atheist/agnostics I read are fans. But just in case not, I take comfort in knowing that I’ll always have Ayaan.
Exit question: Um, what exactly is Gretchen saying here? Christianity’s going to disappear unless we … take away atheists’ First Amendment rights?
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Yes. A cave.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:39 PM
Kinda gives new meaning to the, “I keep getting older, and they just stay the same age.”
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Perfectly put.
Hats off.
warbaby on December 18, 2008 at 5:40 PM
2008 AD and people are just as annoying as when Yashua walked on earth….
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM
That’s my point.
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM
But once again, doesn’t that involve the extrapolation of conclusions of enormity based on models that are miniscule? Sure, in smaller terms of scale, we can confirm the accuracy of models, but we have no proof that they hold up over eons of time. Again, reasonable, but still takes faith as there are really no conclusive testing conditions.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM
I don’t get it.
If people want to believe in god, whatever. If they don’t, whatever. Their call. Doesn’t affect me.
What am I missing?
Xolom on December 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Xolom on December 18, 2008 at 5:42 PM
The need to control others? The need to be right? I dunno…
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 5:44 PM
She’s saying that a small sign from a small minority makes her feel threatened and outraged and Michelle seems to be reassuring her that its not that big of a deal just ignore them, like trolls.
Christmas is enjoyable and trolls can express themselves any time of the year and if trolls want respect for their position, disrespecting others beliefs won’t get them there but trolls do realize that no matter how they approach religion, they’ll be treated, like trolls.
Speakup on December 18, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Heh heh heh heh. High school girls, man…
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Which, of course, is practiced by some on both sides of this atheist/theist divide.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 5:45 PM
A (build)ing by it’s very definition has a (build)er. So your question is facetious. A more appropriate question would be, do you know any of any habitable structures that didn’t have a builder. And the answer to that would be, yes. Caves, for one.
FloatingRock on December 18, 2008 at 5:46 PM
Bravo. Should be Quote of the Day, really.
Entelechy on December 18, 2008 at 5:46 PM
First off, let me state that I believe warbaby made a mistake in his quoting, which is no big deal, but there is always the chance I could have misuderstood what was going. If so I apologize.
There are times when the word “stupid” is appropriate, like if you say you should be careful not to place wolfbane leaves near the salad and you do anyway and you die. I view quoting Godwin’s law and then calling your opponents Nazis to be the equivalent. I am open to reasonable arguments to the contrary.
Also, Darwin was an atheist, but it was more strategic in promoting the idea than some of the more fervent of his time.
Even if Marx did find useful parts of what Darwin had to say, Marx would also find useful parts of what Jesus had to say. The fact that someone is able to rip an idea or two out of context to win a debating point proves nothing. And given the violence of the Christian false, you have no logical choice but agree with me. Else, you’ve agreed to the Inquisition and a whole lot more.
thuja on December 18, 2008 at 5:47 PM
A belief in hell, here or there.
Entelechy on December 18, 2008 at 5:48 PM
Oh, sure a hole in the ground… lol …
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 5:48 PM
Are you saying that Obama wants to pass the Skynet Funding Bill?
batterup on December 18, 2008 at 5:49 PM
I don’t know of any building with a single builder. Obviously, polytheism is the truth given your logic.
You really should read David Hume before making such an argument.
thuja on December 18, 2008 at 5:51 PM
Uh, yeah, mental gymnastics.. okay. Since you’re having trouble with the question, put it this way then:
Do you know of any painting that didn’t have a painter?
___ YES ___ NO
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 5:51 PM
Hmmm… I find myself wondering if we might be safer if he did…
FloatingRock on December 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM
You’re right. The first humans lived in duplexes. Now get back on the short bus.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:54 PM
I realize that you were simply trying to point out a rhetorical error in the question…
…but many buildings are built by a single builder – doll houses, tree houses, storage sheds, garages and even some homes have all been built by a single person.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 5:54 PM
The point is that the God of the Bible is capitalised irregardless of whether one believes in Him or not.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 5:54 PM
Again, by definition a painting was painted.
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 5:54 PM
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 5:51 PM
a bit of a problem with that question. I mean…a painting is one thing….a sunset….another…
And you really can’t tell who the author of the sunset is…thus the confusion we silly Humans have.
But, I do like your question. :)
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 5:54 PM
You don’t know of anybody who built their own home by themselves, solo? Say, like a log cabin?
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 5:55 PM
We’re all stuck in time and nobody knows jack.
Great.
Happy Holidays~
lol
I’m kidding. Please don’t attack me!
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Okay, your game is tedious, and pointless. I’ll try:
Do you know of any (insert verb here)ing that didn’t have a (insert same verb here)er?
It means nothing.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Only in this culture, and if one were to want to make a point about God not being God, then one could simply write god.
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 5:56 PM
That doesn’t mean that most buildings are built by one person. Quite the opposite. But, hey, you’re enjoying the idea that you’re “gotcha”ing everyone, when you’re not, so, go right ahead.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 5:57 PM
And people like me prefer the term Yahweh, so the word god doesn’t mean jack. so sorry! was that too harsh?
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 5:57 PM
A painting is usually a representation of the natural world.
Asking questions like, “have you ever asked a question that wasn’t a question?” doesn’t win you any points.
FloatingRock on December 18, 2008 at 5:59 PM
Thuja, as I pointed out, the invoker of Godwin’s Law in this case was me. I also pointed out that it was intended to be ironic, although the lack of quotation marks may have led you astray. How pointing out that Hitler used Darwin as justification for racialism could be construed as “calling my opponents Nazis” is an argument that eludes me.
Whether Marx theoretically “would also find useful parts of what Jesus had to say” is immaterial to the point that he did in fact quote Darwin extensively.
warbaby on December 18, 2008 at 6:00 PM
While I’m still pondering the effectiveness and correctness of the original question…
…I think the point was to get to the question of:
Do you know of any creation that didn’t have a creator?
But I will admit that the original question seems to be more of a grammatical construct than a philosophical/theological one.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:00 PM
And who actually made the logs in the cabin you showed? Who made the saw and the tools to make the cabin? Perhaps someone on a desert island somewhere has made a building solely on their own, but in normal human society, we depend on others to construct any building–just as the gods depended on each other when they created the universe.
(For the record, I believe in Judaism.)
thuja on December 18, 2008 at 6:02 PM
My eyes started to hurt on page three, so please forgive me if someone has already said this. I really respect Michelle Malkin, I’ve been reading her blog and columns for some time now. We have things in common, besides basic political beliefs – we’re mothers, live on the East Coast, we both crochet. We have our differences, most chiefly our religious beliefs. I can still respect her, even with this in mind, but it does bother me a bit that she might not extend that respect back. I wonder if she knows how many of us nonbelievers (agnostic, atheists, nontheists) are fans of hers.
I’m no fan of the sign, as I believe it was done to provocate. And yes, I realize Christmas is a federal holiday… but it’s not the only holiday to be celebrated this month. What’s wrong with having a Solstice display or a Buddist one? If you’re secure in your personal beliefs, you should not be offended. I celebrate Christmas to the extent that I have to with Christian inlaws and children, in a secular fashion, but I’m not offended by the Nativity displays. I find the elaborate ones beautiful to look at.
Two other things, before I get jumped on. One, I too wish that the militant anti-theists would be as aggressive toward Islam as they are towards Christians (but I too believe that’s because we have more of the latter than the former here). Two, I’m not that big on Gretchen Carlson either.
Anna on December 18, 2008 at 6:02 PM
I don’t think so.
But that still presupposes that we’re created.
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 6:03 PM
Just wait until the Muslim right gets going, the left will not be around to wonder what is to Christmas. There will be no Christmas only Ramadan. Anyone who is for Christmas will be died.
tjexcite on December 18, 2008 at 6:04 PM
I know Jack. But not *know* know him, like in the Biblical sense. ; )
Anna on December 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM
Its not a cultural issue. Its about the correct use of language. Using a small ‘g’ would be “making a point” in an Orwellian way–like how some anti-semites refer to Jews as jews.
Also, its nothing to do with grammar. Capitalisation is an element of punctuation. I’m the Punctuation Nazi.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM
While I believe I stated that I wasn’t very enamored of this particular line of reasoning…
…by definition, we ARE created.
That is, I don’t think saying we are created presupposes a particular, intelligent creator.
Then again, I really tire of linguistic gymnastics.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Why are you messaging me? Didn’t you ask me leave you alone!? Of course, I didn’t ask you for any favours, and you only play the victim because I’ve shown you to be a phony several times, but why not take your own advice? If you are so bothered by me, you shouldn’t be messaging me. And frankly, I’d rather not answer you and waste the time to slowly hunt and peck out endless answers for you when you don’t really want one.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Aengus, good for you.
May I assume you meant the spelling “its” in this case ironically?
warbaby on December 18, 2008 at 6:08 PM
Here in Scandinavia it’s quite easy celebrating the “Christmas” traditions as an atheist , because it really is a pre-christian tradition from pagan times. Did they really have Christmas trees in Jerusalem..
the_nile on December 18, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Bridgetown, design, of course, demands a designer.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM
Hey… that’s a good idea, I’m glad you thought of it.
Now really, isn’t there a difference between exercising your God Given Right to Free Speech and trouble-making?
Maxx on December 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM
Arguing this stuff before, I was told I was mistaken to compare humans to god because they are on entirely different levels of existence. So the question would be moot.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:12 PM
That’s why we still have a tree… at least, on the years we’re not out of town. : )
Anna on December 18, 2008 at 6:13 PM
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM
I know where you’re going with this, and I believe in the designer myself….
but..
Only to our little minds does a design demand a designer.
Because we are a tiny planet in a vast world and we don’t even know fully about our own oceans much less the universe..or the ‘design’ / ‘designer’ of it all.
This argument could last thousands of years. lol
And still, I love humans. Silly and mad and angry and all. How boring would it be if there were only one religion?
I better stop. ..drinking this cheap red wine, that is.
:)
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 6:15 PM
1) Christmas the holiday is not pre-Christian by it’s very nature and origin.
2) Christmas IS celebrated near other, more ancient, celebrations (winter solstice).
3) Many of the accoutrements of Christmas have been borrowed from other places, but have been given different ’spins.’
4) No, there weren’t Christmas trees in Jerusalem. But there WAS a manger in Bethlehem and shepherds in the fields and a bright Christmas star and angels singing in the night.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:15 PM
Hahaha. No but typos don’t count. However in this case maybe God was making sure my bubble was burst. I still think its important though. Especially (as discussed upthread) now that many writers refer to lower-case “communism” which is incorrect and probably done out of political motives.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:16 PM
Putting someone’s life at risk is one thing.
Pissing off a bunch of religious people is another. Were it Muslims, most people on this board wouldn’t bat an eye, or would roll one. Granted, atheist organizations haven’t had the balls to piss them off yet, but it’s still a double standard on the part of Christians.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:17 PM
-bangs head on desk-
You DID see the part of my post where I stated I wasn’t really enthralled with this particular line of reasoning, right?
It’s just stupid linguistic gymnastics (just like the conversation about whether a belief in the contrary be a belief itself).
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Its a logical time to have a celebration because there had to be an occasional outburst of overeating and drinking to make a break in the unbearable winter before the advent of central heating.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:19 PM
At least AP isn’t a dyslexic atheist and not believe in DOG.
44Magnum on December 18, 2008 at 6:20 PM
I just wanted to stab the dying idea and bury it.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:20 PM
the_nile on December 18, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Actually all Christmas celebrations are pagan in nature.
That’s true. We will be attacked for the truth, but it’s the truth.
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM
To all you folks who are confused by the question, “Do you know of any painting that didn’t have a painter?” Of course, you are not confused. You are just being “dumb on purpose” because you understand the implications of the question. If you were on a hiking trip through the forest and you came across a painting hanging on a tree. You look around and there are no footprints. What would you conclude? Obviously, you would conclude that there must have been a painter. In fact, you couldn’t want better evidence that there was a painter than to have a painting right in front of you. You don’t need “faith” to know there was a painter. All you need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. So how can I know God exists? The creation is proof of the Creator. It is insane to think to the contrary. It is impossible that there not be a designer for such a complex universe as the one in which we live.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Religious Zealot, I realize it is a trivial point but actually the angels weren’t singing.
Rose on December 18, 2008 at 6:22 PM
OK.
Sorry about the response, then.
Or, should I say…
Apology accepted, Admiral.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM
I’m not confused. I already pointed out that it is moot. Supposedly, god is on an entirely different level of existence, and to compare him to humans by their actions is, as I’ve been told, wrong.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM
Yes. Around 70% of the works hanging in MOMA and 100% of everything in the Tate Gallery.
Shy Guy on December 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM
+1
Anna on December 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM
This deal is getting worse all the time.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Of American English, which is cultural.
No offense intended, but you’ve broken a rule. Its (in your post) should be it’s.
Addressing a fallacy in your argument on a thread where all is seen is not the same as addressing you personally.
I wanted you to stop calling me a whore. Conversing with me civilly, assuming you are able to do so, is not what concerns me.
Esthier on December 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM
You’re wrong, but before I can really get into detail I need you to clarify what you mean by “Christmas celebrations.”
Are you talking about the accouterments like trees, lights, holly, manger scenes etc?
Or are you talking in a broad sense about the entire celebration of Christmas?
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM
This DNA code is more complex than all the computer programs ever written by man combined. Anybody who think that happened by chance is insane!
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM
-sigh-
You’re right, you’re right.
I should have known better.
“Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying…”
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Do you believe the logs for the cabin and the saw to cut the wood happened by chance? Or rather, do you think it’s possible for them to assemble themselves without a designer? Y’know, the saw and all it’s teeth nicely aligned, and the wooden or plastic handle bolted on tight.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Oh, so I’m a victim now, am I? I think not!
OldEnglish on December 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Do you know any builder that doesn’t have a mom and a dad?
mycowardice on December 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Obviously I missed something, please explain what the double standard is on the part of Christians.
Maxx on December 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM
I don’t understand. I know that Americans dropped drop the letter ‘u’ from some words and change ’s’ to ‘z’ in others but I thought that happened organically over time. Is it normal to change rules of punctuation to express cultural ideas?
I know that I don’t capitalise my name on the internet but thats simply stylistic. The small letters ‘ae’ look well together.
To the extent that my pride was involved in my attempt at correcting you I now have egg on my face. I still think it is important though, particularly when it comes to religious or political words which many people try to redefine on purpose.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM
It’s well worth remembering that most of the time when Christians antagonize atheists they are also antagonizing Jews. The efforts of Christians to paper off their past crimes by creating a “Judeo-Christian” ethic is not appreciated by the Jews. I just want to vomit when I hear the term “Judeo-Christian”.
I do agree with the others on this thread–even those who use the term “Judeo-Christian”–that we should be pissing off the muslims instead. I’ll be the first to extend my hand in peace to any Christian or atheist for that purpose.
thuja on December 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM
If the atheists were pissing off the Muslims you wouldn’t bat an eye. I’m referring, of course, to conservative Christians.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Do you know any creator who wasn’t created?
So who created your god? Oops, your game failed again, worse than electric football.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Not an atheist but not a religionist. But to answer your question, no, all buildings have a builder or (gasp) builders.
Second question. If you could not locate or identify the builder of the building, would you assume that it was done by spooky magic?
LevStrauss on December 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM
Electric football rocks!
Anna on December 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM
I think we’d all bat an eye when the dead bodies began to pile up. Pope Benedict was heavily criticised (by Hitchens) when he agreed with the ummah that the Mohammed cartoons wee blasphemous from a religious perspective. He had a point. Besides why aggravate the Muslims? I’d rather they just be deported from Western countries and we had as little contact with them as is necessary from a security standpoint.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Well, the truth is that Christianity started out as a ’sect’ of Judaism, and in fact, was never meant to be different.
This is not opinion, but historical fact.
The Christian heritage is, indeed, a Judeo-Christian heritage.
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:42 PM
The person who thinks a Book had no designer is:
___ A. Intelligent
___ B. A fool
___ C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:42 PM
So you are calling your nasty little heresy a “heritage”?
thuja on December 18, 2008 at 6:44 PM
Now, let’s pause for a minute and admit that no matter what one’s beliefs (or non-beliefs) are, there is a certain point when we look back at things that we have to admit we don’t know where things came from.
One of the basic laws of physics (or used to be), was that matter could neither be created nor destroyed.
Which is all well and good until you ask how such matter came to be in the first place?
I’m not interested right now in using this to argue for God or an ‘intelligent designer’…
…just that there are questions that (at least right now) have no answer.
And old favorite of mine was about space and occupying space (and is not an attempt to ‘prove’ God or ‘disprove’ science).
I’m not sure if I can articulate it very well, but it went something like this:
If I’m in the United States, and the US is in/on the planet earth, and the planet earth is in the solar system and the solar system is in the galaxy and the galaxy is in the universe…
…what is the universe in?
Another one is: what existed BEFORE the ‘Big Bang’?
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM
When they use the term Judeo-Christian in talking about present times, they just mean that the Jews got to stick around a little longer so the end times can go off without a hitch.
LevStrauss on December 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM
Okay, just answer me this one question: Could a box evolve?
Picture a box. Any will do. In your mind take a good look at this box. You know it has four sides, and a bottom, maybe a top. If it didn’t it wouldn’t be a box. It might even have decorations on it, pictures or words. My question is, where did it come from? How did it come to be a box?
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM
And Merry Christmas to you, too!
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM
If Christians and Jews are going to live together in the same countries what do you suggest instead? A number of different religious political and (in the case of some Mexican immigrants national cultures) competing with each in the same country isn’t a recipe for societal stability.
aengus on December 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Newsflash: You saying something is moot, does not make it moot.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM
Astute questions, which I pose myself to bring the religion of science back down to earth.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM
Did you just pick up Hegel’s “Philosophy of Art” today? That is what the quiz reads like.
LevStrauss on December 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM
I made the box.
:)
bridgetown on December 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM
You keep avoiding it , but who created your “THE CREATOR”?
the_nile on December 18, 2008 at 6:56 PM
Didn’t he already ask who makes books?
LevStrauss on December 18, 2008 at 6:57 PM
Random House.
MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 6:59 PM
Why? Putting aside the vast scientific knowledge mankind has gathered about the universe, what causes you to assume that a belief in the supernatural (let alone an omniscient creator) is innate? And if there is or was a god, what created it?
Sign of the Dollar on December 18, 2008 at 7:00 PM
That’s what faith is all about.
I can’t believe apacalyps is defending this issue all by him/herself.
mycowardice on December 18, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Is the inability to answer that proof that God doesn’t exist?
If so, what does it say about science that they don’t know who/what created matter and energy?
Religious_Zealot on December 18, 2008 at 7:07 PM
I confess that I have very little patience with the scoffers after a few exchanges, but I have always tried to converse with you civilly.
Don’t blame me for your sinful conduct. I am for truth and against error. Period. If something’s true, I’m for it. If something’s false, I’m against it. My reaction to you relies solely on what you say and do in this forum.
apacalyps on December 18, 2008 at 7:08 PM
Unless he’s right and your point is moot, which it is.
FloatingRock on December 18, 2008 at 7:09 PM
What do you do for things that are true and not true, or not true or not not true?
mycowardice on December 18, 2008 at 7:10 PM
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