Still on IE?
posted at 11:15 am on December 17, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
For those still on Microsoft Internet Explorer, perhaps now would be a good time to consider other options. Hackers have found a hole in IE’s security that stretches through versions 5 through 8 beta, and experts have a fix — find another browser:
Users of Microsoft’s Internet Explorer are being urged by experts to switch to a rival until a serious security flaw has been fixed.
The flaw in Microsoft’s Internet Explorer could allow criminals to take control of people’s computers and steal their passwords, internet experts say. …
Microsoft says it has detected attacks against IE 7.0 but said the “underlying vulnerability” was present in all versions of the browser.
Other browsers, such as Firefox, Opera, Chrome, Safari, are not vulnerable to the flaw Microsoft has identified.
Microsoft says it will have an emergency patch ready quickly to end the exploit of its system. They disagreed with recommendations to stop using the browser, saying — I’m not making this up — “I cannot recommend people switch due to this one flaw,” said John Curran, head of Microsoft UK’s Windows group. One flaw? That’s a might big singularity, and the fact that it doesn’t occur on other browsers and that it does on several versions of IE reflects poorly on Microsoft’s programmers and researchers.
I stopped using IE a few months ago. It’s easier for me to use two different browsers, one for web surfing and the other for blog management tools. I prefer Firefox for the latter, but used to use IE for surfing until I became so frustrated with its bugs and hangs that I just couldn’t stand using it. I flirted with Safari, which also was a bit buggy but not bad. Later, I settled on Opera and have had no problems at all with its operation. It’s now my default browser.
After this, I suspect that more people will find their way to alternate browsers. They’ll be pleasantly surprised, and Microsoft may not get them back.
Update: On the other hand, Bit9 has named Firefox the most vulnerable Windows application. IE doesn’t even get a mention.
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Dismissing the Windows vs. Linux comparison as “comedic” is pretty rich considering that Linux has been around for 15 years and still hasn’t made a dent. Again, the Linux loonies like you, as opposed to people who just use the damn thing, are insane elitists who sniff your own farts and smell lilacs. You use essentially the same logic that a lot of Apple people do: “Think different” means “I’m better than all of you”.
No. You’re not.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM
OH LAWZY.
Wii vs. X360 vs. PS3 debate will now replace the PC vs. Linux debate.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Am I the only person in the universe who has a problem with Firefox spontaneously crashing on every computer I use?
L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 2:19 PM
What’s the debate? I have a Wii and I want the other two. :P
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:19 PM
MadisonConservative said:
“Linux is fine as a hobby, but Windows is for getting work done, and for relaxing as opposed to fighting with your computer.”
I sure am glad only Linux users can be elitist twits. I can’t imagine what you might say if it were possible for Windows users to be so. ;-)
Troj on December 17, 2008 at 2:21 PM
I heard the same with UNIX and OS/2
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Oh…I couldn’t agree more. You make an excellent point.
This is arguably the most profound problem the linux community faces. It’s a question of perception mostly, and the FUD being slung perpetually by know-nothings actually does stick. Whining about that doesn’t help, of course.
The truth is, if I could wave a wand and install a modern linux distro on everyone’s machine, most people could continue happily. Gamers would have some heartburn, but as I’ve stated, that’s largely a political & proprietary-lock-in problem, not a linux problem per se. There are fantastic alternatives for pretty much everything you currently use under ‘doze in your daily lives.
However, penetrating a marketplace that has for decades been dominated by M$ lock-in is a really tough nut to crack. The server war was lost by M$ years ago, they’re hangin on to the PC world, but they’re missing the mobile market.
It’ll be interesting to see how things shake out. Keep your eye on Android and Maemo for starters.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Your bizarre parallel universe just bluescreened ;)
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Ditto betamax vs vhs
I don’t deny that technical superiority is not sufficient to win the marketplace. Perception is everything.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I’m afraid that is wishful thinking. didn’t microsoft just invest in Novell?? Turbo C++ and OWL may have been better than MS, but not by that much.
you’re goin to find the new boss is the same as the old boss…kind of like bush and obama…
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:26 PM
There are many good reasons to use the Linux operating system. The first is the freedom to have the OS that you want. If you have an old machine, you can customize your machine for it and it can run very fast. You can’t even run XP that well on some old machines that are fast with Linux. Linux is also good at exploiting the multiple CPUs on new machines. In fact, most large super computers run Linux and those that don’t Linux use Unix relatives of Linux. Another reason for Linux is that you have a wide choice of free programs for most of the tasks that people do. Admittedly, Linux doesn’t have a program quite as good as Adobe Photoshop, but for most amateur photographers, the free Linux programs make more sense than shelling out hundreds of dollars for Photoshop. Also, there is no good equivalent of Visio, but given the energy of Linux programmers, the equivalent will come with time. Another reason to choose Linux is you avoid being locked into a propriety format–which force you to buy a new program from the same vendor–think of having to update to Office 2007. Programs written specifically for Linux emphasize open formats so that you can keep your data and use it with a different program.
Finally, Linux is all about community. It’s a nice community for the most part. Admittedly, the Linux community does attract a few people who don’t know how to express their enthusiasm about Linux and FOSS (free open source software). Likely LimeyGeek, they appear arrogant and obnoxious, but they are not typical. (And I’d bet LimeyGeek is a great guy in person.) If you go to a Linux support forum, the people there will be polite and helpful as long as you do a two minute search to make sure that you question has been answered recently.
thuja on December 17, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Microsoft will be releasing a special out-of band patch for this vulnerability sometime TODAY… Check that the patch is available now. See Microsoft Security Bulletin MS08-078 for details.
jasetaro on December 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM
what its going to come down to, as it always has, is development environments, and MS with .Net has the best. I think Java is a dead end, and SUN (JAVA) is going under before long. Perl has just been revamped to not make it backwards compatible I hear..
Databases are right up there with languages…and SQL Server is pretty good, it may not be as quite good as Oracle, but it works pretty well. well enough to beat Oracle.
I think the desktop OS has faded in importance, and the Database on the backend, and the development environment on the front end are the most important pieces of the puzzle.
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I have a multi-core, multi-cpu machine running Fedora that would make you weep for joy ;)
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Oh really. Linux holds what percent of the desktop and workstation market? Eh? What?
And just last year, Linux did the unthinkable! They took…third in market share, behind UNIX and…oh wait, what was number one? Shall we just say “M$” because it’s cute like every little douchey BDSer who calls him “Bushitler”?
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:32 PM
No. Absolutely no. Linux is based on free open source software and Microsoft is based on proprietary software. In other words, Linux is like a library and Windows is like a bookstore. Linux has no desire to screw you out of few dollars and it will never be a boss. With Linux, you own your entire computer. With Microsoft, they own the software.
thuja on December 17, 2008 at 2:34 PM
I’d dispute that. Firstly, .Net is a platform, not a development environment. M$’s dev environment is Visual Studio. GCC alone dwarfs the back-end capabilities of VS. As for IDE’s, that’s a matter of taste. There are many awesome IDEs out there that are arguably more attuned to the needs of serious developers than VS. Six of one…
Databases? MySQL is eating many lunches while smiling. I think the days of the monolithic & expensive DBMS are finished TBH.
It’ll be interesting to see how the various facets of the marketplace respond over time, for sure.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Speaking of which, heh.
The price of Linux in China.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:36 PM
All you Linux fans are missing the boat. We live in an entirely superficial world now. It doesn’t matter what an operating system actually does, it matters whose name is on the package. Does that little Linux penguin have his own mansion on the Puget Sound? I don’t think so. Complaining about the stability or vulnerability of Windows is like complaining about ridiculously unqualified presidential or Senate candidates. It’s so… nineteen nineties.
We just had a big election, after all, and Windows Vista Obama won. Unix McCain is busy giving interviews where he tells everyone to stop pointing out all the security flaws in Vista, and refused to endorse Firefox Palin as his browser of choice for 2012. We’re poised to install the Kennedy Internet Explorer in the Senate. A patch for Vista Obama and the Kennedy IE will be available soon, but unfortunately it will cost several trillion dollars.
Doctor Zero on December 17, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Limey Geek wrote:
No, it’s not a cult like Obama or global warming, which are worldwide and pervasive. It’s a cult like Ron Paul, intense, but far-flung.
I do think the auto analogy is apt, because everyone who drives needs at least a Saturn. Nobody who drives NEEDS a Lamborghini.
This is not a diss of Linux, it’s just reality. As far as the world of operating systems are concerned, it’s much like the American political system, which will only really allow for two major parties: There’s Windows, there’s Apple, and a bunch of boutique OS’s that rarely matter.
L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 2:38 PM
you may find out microsoft owning Linux before long…
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Oh, and the Kennedy Internet Explorer version 8.0 is, unfortunately, no more stable than the previous versions were. We can only hope it’s less likely to crash with the Blue Windscreen of Death.
Doctor Zero on December 17, 2008 at 2:39 PM
i see you had your issue partly answered already, but I thought I should note anyway:
For those prospective Ubuntu Linux users out there worried about a lack of support, you CAN get support for Ubuntu.
Free support is available via the Ubuntu Community most notably, the Ubuntu Forums, where I have had many many questions answered.
If you want something more official, you can purchase a support contract through Canonical. (Canonical is the corporation that supports and leads Ubuntu development, and is owned by Mark Shuttleworth.)
It’s not cheap, but top-flight service never is. Keep in mind, Canonical Ubuntu support is roughly equivalent to the very best Enterprise support package available from Dell. You are getting a solid gold support package.
So support is absolutely out there. Please don’t think that you would be totally on your own if you choose Ubuntu over Windows.
wearyman on December 17, 2008 at 2:40 PM
M$ vs linux server share?
I’m not arguing that M$ doesn’t hold a strong position currently, although I would argue that their dominance in particular sectors is not proof of quality. In all sectors, linux is the technically superior product. It has only been perhaps the last 5 years that linux has really accelerated its development towards making it a more accessible platform for regular people to use.
Nah, M$ is shorter, but it does reveal those that have no better default position than to resort to ‘douchey’ ad hominem.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Not possible. There’s nothing to ‘own’. If M$ were smart they’d gut their OS and replace the core with a linux kernel. For free.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:43 PM
whatever. we’re developing .Net applications.
does SAP and/or peoplesoft run on MySQL? you know what I’m saying….
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I’m sure you are right. I find that I don’t really need that much power. Most people have much more computer than they need–unless they are using the Vista hog. I’m currently running Fedora with a single CPU with .5Gig of RAM and a motherboard I found in the garbage. I do however have a quad-core machine if I decide to do some serious number crunching.
thuja on December 17, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I just updated to the latest version of Firefox, released just yesterday. Their latest security fixes should address any found vulnerabilities, for now.
I also told my husband to switch to Firefox immediately. Those at his office use IE. And every single time he leaves IE on, there’s always porn showing as a pop-up. The latest incident happened just last weekend.
newton on December 17, 2008 at 2:46 PM
Oh I really REALLY hope they do.
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:46 PM
I’ll read between the lines here and presume to know the intent behind that post.
In which case, are you really that stupid?
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:46 PM
don’t you have various flavors of Linux? red hat, novell, etc?? you know they tried this with unix back in the 80s…a common system..but it didn’t work…all the manufacturers added ‘enhancements’ to Unix, so they ended up being incompatible, even though they were built upon the ATT (or berkely?) core.
the same appears to be happening today. history repeats itself.
right4life on December 17, 2008 at 2:47 PM
I’d love it too, I’d make a fortune!
But they won’t, because low-level proprietary lock-in is the only thing they’ve got…and even that is quicksand.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:48 PM
No, but Amazon and Google do. As do many large Internet-based companies.
Linux servers (running Apache) run most of the Internet. Those that need databases are almost all running MySQL. MySQL is very very popular, particularly with companies that already have a Linux-based web presence and run MySQL there. It’s easier to push into the enterprise environment once you are already hosting the web portal.
wearyman on December 17, 2008 at 2:49 PM
IE6: Yes.
IE7 is way better about this, and IE8 is on par with FF3 I think. (Neither are 100% standards compliant either, atm afaik.)
But remember – if you ever see someone using IE6, make sure you tell them to UPGRADE. IE6 must die.
I was referring more to some of the pervasive attitudes throughout the Linux community, but your point is well taken. My experiences with Linux predate Ubuntu (sadly by only a couple of years) but I do keep hearing great things about that distro.
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 2:50 PM
I’ve been in IT for almost 12 years now and every outfit I’ve ever worked for uses the typical MS environment backed by Windows Servers and workstations using Internet explorer. No company I’ve worked for has ever supported usign any of the other browsers and we were actually instructed to remove such software from computers found to be using it.
I believe the reason for the holes and the attacks as others have mentioned here is because Microsoft is the big dog on the block, the king of the hill and as everyone knows, there are some who want to knock the king off of his hill. This is why you hear more about attacks against Microsoft versus other companies and products who offer the same services.
Scorched_Earth on December 17, 2008 at 2:50 PM
No. You’re right about the ‘Unix Wars’, as they came to be known, but this isn’t happening in the linux world.
There is only one official ‘linux’, overseen by its creator, Linus Torvald. This is the ‘gospel’ linux. All the ‘flavors’ you refer to are distributions – different ways of bundling the same core linux with various apps etc. Even this marketplace is boiling down to a cadre of serious players.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:51 PM
If your husband is the ONLY person to use his work machine I would have a talk with him about what sites he’s surfing at work.
;)
(j/k, BTW. That can happen without surfing naughty sites.)
wearyman on December 17, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Whoa there…any ODBC/JDBC-compliant software can use MySQL as easily as MS SQL Server or Oracle.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Why do people keep mentioning how long they’ve been in IT like that’s some sort of huge asset? So you’ve got a chair that perfectly fits the curvature of your butt – so what?
Are you any good? That’s the question.
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Wow. Touchy, touchy. Glad you aren’t an elitist who can’t take a jibe.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Yeah….it’s like claiming a lifetime of jerking off makes you an expert on masturbation…still doesn’t change the fact you’ve got a tiny dick ;)
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Same reason Senators quote their time in Washington when running for office, I suppose XD
Better a guy that’s crappy but has 20 years experience than one that might be good, but has only been on the job a year.
You know what I’m talkin about
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 2:57 PM
newton wrote:
I’ve never used a browser that stopped EVERY pop up.
I don’t know the size of the business your hubby works for, but mine is immense, and maintains an intranet that runs on pre-tab IE, which I don’t dig. I was able to d/l Firefox, but I couldn’t run it due to Administrator restrictions. I was able to get Avant, Maxthon, and even Acoo through. Maxthon works best, which is unfortunate because I hate the fact that ChiComs run it.
No porn gets through on my PC; I can’t even access sites that have certain cuss words on it.
L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 2:57 PM
I yoose line-ucks! I huv hyoooge e-peen!
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:57 PM
No. Not touchy. Just stunned you’d post something so stupid. Either you’re pitching cheap shots at whatever cost to your reputation, or you absolutely do not understand the subject matter.
I suspect a little from columns A & B.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Or one of those that
Ciannaky on December 17, 2008 at 2:58 PM
You have chosen… wisely. I’ve used Opera since, well, forever ago when they charged for it. Yes: it was, and is, that good. It’s especially useful for us old-timey keyboard jockeys. (I’ll go up against a mouser for productivity any time, any place.) Hacks? Doesn’t happen.
Next up: all you Outlook users need to switch to Pegasus Mail – unless you want to wait until someone discovers how buggy and hack-prone Outlook is. Oh, wait…
Paul_in_NJ on December 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Oh dear…
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Say Ed,
Do you have a neat trick to load my favorites from IE to Opera? I just downloaded Opera and I think I’m going to like it.
cjs1943 on December 17, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Coming from someone who can’t summon up the energy to type “Windows” or “Microsoft”, due to his addiction to inanely giggling every time he types “‘doze”.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:01 PM
When someone can’t refer to a product or company by their actual name, replacing it instead with some cutesy play on ASCII or phonetics, I talk at the same level as that someone.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:02 PM
I haven’t been a year in IT. (Have a degree, BTW) Where I lived before, there was almost no IT infrastructure. I envy anyone who has been in it. Nowadays, I can’t do it. I have a two-year old and another one coming out soon. And the girl just did a number with a few of my laptop keys just yesterday.
newton on December 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM
People miss the point about Linux and M$ comparisons.
Arguing that M$ is the biggest and most adopted OS and is therefore better misses the point. Using the same logic, since the rest of the world is dominated by Muslims and Liberal/Socialists, we should all just bend over and convert!
I say BullSxxt!
Unless you have actually gotten off your butt and run Linux, then you have no argument. Linux is far superior. Period. And those of us who use it laugh at all the M$ users and their freezes, lockups, viruses, spyware, hijacks, etc.
BierManVA on December 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM
That was a dig at him not you, I completely agree with you and was pointing out only four posts earlier he was complaining bout ‘ad hominems’
Ciannaky on December 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM
In Opera: Bookmarks->Manage Bookmarks. Then File->Import Internet explorer Favorites.
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Thank you. I owe you.
cjs1943 on December 17, 2008 at 3:06 PM
LimeyGeek has already addressed the idea that the Linux world could become fragmented and incompatible, but I wanted to add some details. Linux is really just the operating system, and the average user rarely directly does anything with an operating system. Instead, the average users interacts with programs like Firefox to do something with the computer. These programs are not part of Linux, but on a Linux machine most programs like Firefox are FOSS (free open source software). A great deal of effort goes into making sure that FOSS world does not become fragmented. The two big FOSS desktops, KDE and GNOME, make efforts to insure that their programs are compatible with each other. You’ll find that the compatibility is increasing over time. The reason for the increase in compatibility is that compatibility actually increases the value of the software in the FOSS world, so I see no reason to expect fragmentation in the future.
thuja on December 17, 2008 at 3:09 PM
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM
” Linux has been around for 15 years and still hasn’t made a dent.”
Actually, prior to Mandrake, the major use for Linux was as a server. But no one who really knows what they’re talking about would say it hasn’t made a dent – why do you think Microsoft needs to advertise its systems now? They never had to do that before.
“are insane elitists who sniff your own farts and smell lilacs. . . . “Think different” means “I’m better than all of you”.”
That actually is true, about the hard core Linux users. I used to go to the Ubuntu forums for . . . oh, about 6 months and I got sick to death of the off topic boards after a while. Whining about not only DRM, but about Republicans; Bush; capitalism . . . etc, you name it they did it. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more than one Code Pink wacko floating around that joint with admin status. What happened to the days when computer software talk wasn’t about how many children were dying in Darfur?
Oh well. There are exceptions to the rule, like Eric Raymond.
Ryan Gandy on December 17, 2008 at 3:09 PM
To be fair, I did challenge his honesty, in his claim about his supercharged Linux gaming machines that somehow manage to defy OS architecture and run current-gen intense graphic games better in virtualization than in native.
He keeps asking if I’m stupid because I linked an article that talks about a Chinese distro of Linux that costs hundreds of dollars.
Like I said, just like an Obama cultist. Arrogant, elitist, and while they may not represent the Linux community, so often the loudest get the most attention. Someone might want to put in a copy of the Matrix so he can settle down and fantasize that he is the real-life Neo.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:09 PM
I told my husband many times to close IE immediately after he finishes up, especially if he accesses our bank account online, precisely because of security vulnerabilities. But many times, I see that he finishes and leaves the screen up, at the bank or at Weather Underground.com. I always close my screen after accessing my bank account online, even with Firefox.
But when I find the Windows Media Player on and no picture on it, right on top of the IE browser, I can almost instinctively know what it is. A few times, he didn’t believe me when I told him I found porn on top of the IE browser. I had closed it immediately after finding out. But last weekend, I called him over to take a look.
(Psst! Don’t worry. It wasn’t even “good” porn…) ;-)
newton on December 17, 2008 at 3:10 PM
The internet became available. From TRS-80s with handsets on the cradle at a blinding 1200 baud and onwards!
To be honest, my favorite distro is Damn Small Linux. Stick it on a thumb drive, and it’s a little wizard for getting basics up and running.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:11 PM
I’m using Opera as we speak. I had a bad experience back in the nineties with Opera hijacking all the .htm files on my hard drive after I installed it; for a few moments, I thought it had crashed the entire PC. I was so ticked I just uninstalled it, and didn’t think twice about it until Opera was included as free software in a PC magazine.
L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Well Ed, it is five hours later and I am still not seeing an update to inform folks that MS has had an update for IE out since BEFORE you made the OP.
I am just hoping it is laziness and not typical anti-Microsoft BS that is the reason.
Jim708 on December 17, 2008 at 3:16 PM
You’re literally out of your depth here. You clearly have no understanding of this subject matter whatsoever. It is entirely possible to outperform a ‘native’ OS with a virualized system. It is even possible to do it with emulation. To explain the technical details would entail far more time than I’m prepared to commit to your education.
No. I think you’re stupid because you linked to that article with a smirk on your face thinking you’d scored some points over linux in some way. Since you don’t understand linux at all, you stupidly jumped to conclusions about what that story implied.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:17 PM
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Never used that, I was mostly a Slackware/Ubuntu guy myself. Although the packaging system for the former DID tick me off big time.
If I do go back off Windows I’ll use Fedora – no pulling my hair out trying to configure SELinux. ;)
Ryan Gandy on December 17, 2008 at 3:18 PM
It is even possible to do it with emulation.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:17 PM
I really wouldn’t say that unless you’re talking about the PCSX2 type of emulation, and even then you’ll need a top of the line computer to get it to work properly – much more powerful than the PS2 itself actually was.
Ryan Gandy on December 17, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Mac OS and poor perception of Vista due a shaky launch and Apple’s advertising campaign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems
Come on man. 1% market share? (You know W3 Schools is going to have a disproportionate number of power users.)
1% is a dent?
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 3:21 PM
That isn’t to say that Linux hasn’t made an impact in the computing world – but I’m pretty sure MC was referring to market share.
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Sort of like the points you thought you scored with your first post?
You got extra points for that one. Are you ready to stop being a hypocrite?
Oh, and I like your “lol ur dumb i have no time to show u how wrong u r just take my word for it” response. You present such a cliche Linux elitist script kiddie caricature I’m thinking of making a webcomic of you.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:23 PM
I also wouldn’t say that a PC using 100% resources with native would be outperformed by a PC splitting 100% resources with virtualized OS running on another OS, but hey, what do I know? I would also continue to ask why, if Linux does provide the edge, why communities like HardOCP, Tom’s Hardware, et al would not have switched to Linux in order to squeeze out those last few frames. Again, I have been pronounced as knowing nothing about computers, so what do I know?
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:27 PM
*weep*
You just had to make me remember the lost love of my computer life?? Oh, OS/2… why couldn’t IBM do HALF as well marketing you as they did producing you? Why,oh WHY did they think calling you “Warp” was going to make you famous? How I miss your pre-emptive multitasking, your kernel-level interrupts and kernel-mode execution. You were just so tragically far ahead of your time. If only they had known.
Rest in peace, OS/2.
It’s always hardest at the holidays….
RegularJoe on December 17, 2008 at 3:28 PM
If I abstract away all the OS APIs, and write efficient ‘glue’ code between that and the host OS, then it is perfectly possible to have an emulated system run faster than its ‘native’ counterpart.
Given the godawful kludges in the monstrously inefficient ‘doze architecture, this is not a difficult challenge ;)
Also, remember there are benchmarks & benchmarks. My nvidia drivers outperform their M$ counterparts. But this is only one dimension of ‘performance’.
Nevertheless, my framerates and load tolerance rocks.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:30 PM
I shed a little tear for OS/2 also :)
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:31 PM
I’ve got your back! Here’s a great article.
http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/virtualization-guide-1.ars/3
Uhm. It sadly, uh, calls you a liar. But …
I mean, I’m sure you’re way smarter than the guys at Ars Technica. So, nevermind about facts, we’ll just continue to take your word for it.
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Get a grip, that’s standard geek humor, nothing more.
No. It’s a “STFU and stop expecting to be spoonfed everything dumbass” response. I’m not your personal professor…get off your lazy arse and learn something on your own.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:33 PM
You go get ‘em tiger!
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 3:35 PM
DOS isn’t done ’till Lotus won’t run
As the little Microsoft internal ditty shows, one needs to watch the pirates of Redmond with both eyes.
What is Bit9′s relationship with Microsoft?
I like Open Office, but if you wish you can spend a few hundred dollars a copy for Microsoft. SQL server is a good product, but Informix and MySql are also very good.
Why code in C# and limit yourself to being a wart on the back of Microsoft?
Can anyone afford new software and new training every couple of years?
CrazyGene on December 17, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Ah. When I do it, it’s “scoring points”. When you do it, it’s “standard geek humor”. How about “rhetorical flourish”? You continue to fit the mold of assumed superiority.
Already have, and you’ve insulted me and many, many others for coming to different conclusions than you. Again, you’re an elitist who thinks he knows better than everyone because he is fanatical about a niche operating system.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:37 PM
*sigh* No it doesn’t. It goes into a bit more depth about the issues surrounding virtualization/emulation, but at no point does it refute the ability of virtualized systems to outperform native counterparts.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Elitism requires dogmatic faith in the unproven.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Well, you can write a layer in between the native OS and the virtualized OS, but ultimtately, your still going to have to pass through that kludgey architecture.
Regardless, this is easily provable with benchmarks. Got links?
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 3:38 PM
True. It instead confirms only that emulation and classical virtualization cannot equal the performance of a native OS, and that paravirtualization can just about meet the performance. Nice try, though.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:40 PM
hahaha! I like you man!
Come on, you gotta know his type by this point. We both know that both Windows and Linux have their pluses and minuses, but there’s no way this guy can admit that. His head would explode.
apollyonbob on December 17, 2008 at 3:41 PM
DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Prepare for links to http://www.lolmicroshaftsux.com...
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:45 PM
No emulator does this. You run native applications on an emulation layer. The native OS is nowhere in the picture.
As for virtualization (well, it’s all virtualization really, just at different levels), again, it depends on how that virtualization is accomplished. I’m lucky enough to have great hardware support, on an older machine, it could well be a different story.
I have no published benchmarks for my machines, only personal experience.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Firefox for blogging, no doubt…but it drives me crazy that it crashes so often when searching and coming across a PDF file.
right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Safari FTW.
iamse7en on December 17, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Didn’t say for your machines.
Surely, if this is such a trivial exercise, someone must have done this by now.
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Google Chrome used to disable my internet connection which, in my experience at least, takes the cake as far as browser glitches goes.
YYZ on December 17, 2008 at 3:49 PM
No kidding.
MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 3:51 PM
I guess I’m safe on my Apple, MS gave up supporting anything but office some time ago.
Snake307 on December 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Further confirming your ignorance of low-level technicalities is your use of terms like “the performance”.
There is no “performance” to be singularly measured. Performance is judged in many dimensions, all of which can be affected differently under changing environments.
Simply viewing virtualization/emulation as a layer-cake and thinking “there’s another layer in there, therefore it must be slower” is far from the actual reality. Again, depending on how your system is virtualized, disk/memory io/management or hardware access may be enhanced by that layer.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM
No, but Linux does toss my salad.
Mazztek on December 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM
No, it’s actually pretty spot on, which is why virtualization is slower by almost all accounts.
But, of course, you could post some links to the contrary.
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 3:57 PM
I’m sure there is plenty of Googleable info on how virtualization can outperform native.
I’m not suggesting this is the case on an old 386 btw…I have some pretty honking hardware. We need to compare apples to apples here.
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Not scoffing, but we have a Windows version that leaks like Niagara Falls, and a Linux version which doesn’t leak at all.
Now, the inevitable question arises — is it the application, or an OS API, which is causing the leak?
Given the complexity of the Windows API, I’m not going to hazard a guess on this. All those interesting “handles” in Windows back substantial hunks of real memory controlled by the OS, and failure to properly release a “handle” after use will certainly cause leaks (like failing to free()/delete after a malloc()/new will in Linux). But Linux has various toolkits (such as ElectricFence) which can track memory use down to the subroutine level, and I know of no similar capabilities under Windows.
It’s why flight rated software is always based on Linux or another Unix RTOS — and is never coded in Windows. You can’t verify the correctness of Windows code the way you can Unix code, because the wall between the OS and the application is so fuzzy under Windows.
So, now, let us drink from our cups — you from yours, and I from mine…
unclesmrgol on December 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM
http://www.mozilla.org/security/announce/2008/mfsa2008-60.html
Can anyone tell me what crow tastes like?
regal on December 17, 2008 at 4:00 PM
As I said, it’s too simplistic to make those statements. There’s more to ‘performance’ than what you see in an architecture diagram.
I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t make any difference to the know-nuffs around here….but if anyone would like to learn about modern virtualization, I like to point people in this direction:
http://www.xen.org/
LimeyGeek on December 17, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Probably, but for some reason, I can’t find it.
I do keep finding Googable info on how it doesn’t outperform native, though.
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=virtualization+native+performance&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Chest_Rockwell on December 17, 2008 at 4:01 PM
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