Thank you. I’ll try to come back and answer your 2:37 comment another day if you would like. It’s been a long day and I’m tired right now.

I find it telling that so many christians have bought into the argument that this is about redefining marriage, from the ‘biblical’ view. After all it was solely about property and heirs in the bible. There was nothing wrong with Sara giving her handmaiden to Abram, it was just the way things were done. Lot’s daughters slept with their father, David murdered Bethsheba’s husband and begat Solomon who was the lawful heir. Jacob had two wives. the list goes on. History clearly shows that the modern marriage for romance is a recent social affectation has has led to staggering divorce rates. But none of you are protesting marriage because of that, and divorce is clearly forbidden under the scriptures.”

:rolleyes:

Zekecorlain on December 18, 2008 at 1:40 PM

There’s no hatred or denigration of gays when a Christian says the lifestyle is immoral. As Christians we believe that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all need forgiveness.

Some of us know more about the gay life than you realize. My brother was gay and died of AIDS years ago. I deeply loved him and he knew it. In fact, throughout his life I was the first one in the family he would usually come to for support. Did that mean I squished over talking to him about turning, repenting and acknowledging his need for forgiveness through the death of Christ for his sin? No. I did so with tears for him: for his sin and his inner pain which I knew so well.

Many of your other assumptions about the Bible are not correct, but I thought that was the most important point for me to address.

Our hope is that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

is followed immediately by 1 Corinthians 6:11:

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In this article Warren is trying to claim the title of spokesman for evangelical christians and will use his position to sell more books, and increase his church earnings, How many of you would say he speaks for all christians?. On the other side John Solomonese, tries drag attention back to the HRC pretending that he cares about gay marriage (the HRC doesn’t care at all and only belatedly mentioned it on their website AFTER the protests that they opposed), and that the HRC stands for gays.
Most gays have better things to do than care which preacher or priest gives the invocation since the separation of church and state insures that it means nothing.
As a moderate atheist, I find it telling that so many christians have bought into the argument that this is about redefining marriage, from the ‘biblical’ view. After all it was solely about property and heirs in the bible. There was nothing wrong with Sara giving her handmaiden to Abram, it was just the way things were done. Lot’s daughters slept with their father, David murdered Bethsheba’s husband and begat Solomon who was the lawful heir. Jacob had two wives. the list goes on. History clearly shows that the modern marriage for romance is a recent social affectation has has led to staggering divorce rates. But none of you are protesting marriage because of that, and divorce is clearly forbidden under the scriptures.
No the only reason you take this on as an issue is because it’s easy. Your not gay, you have no gay urges and therefore it’s easy to condemn your fellow men and women when they have to struggle with these issues and decide that physically and psychologically it’s impossible to be with a member of the opposite sex. If you tell a child that he is sinning every time a pretty woman gives him a hard-on, that makes you an idiot, how much more an idiot does that make you when the same child gets a hard-on for a member of the same sex? Pedophilia is wrong because it is an abuse of power by an adult on a child. However if two adults who have tried others things decide that they want to form a union in an effort to make a stable family who are you to stand in their way. Don’t call it marriage if you don’t want to, but don’t stand in their way.
It’s easy to hate gays, but remember the same revulsion you feel for gay sex is mirrored in the revulsion that gays have when trying to engage in straight sex. These aren’t aliens, or demons they are your brothers and sisters, your fellow countrymen and women, and you denigrate them solely because you find a bible verse to quote and others to holler with. The same bible you conveniently ignore when it goes against common sense and legalizes slavery, child murder, and dietary restrictions*. Will all the english go to hell for eating blood sausage? you tell me.

The “big lie” is what religious closet cases like Ted Haggard must live because they are shamed by the church from leading normal, healthy lives as gay americans with all the rights of heterosexuals.

Noneya on December 18, 2008 at 1:16 AM

Ted can live his life any way he wants, no skin of my nose. And what right or rights do I have that Ted doesnt? Ted can marry a lesbian if he wants. There’s gay marriage for ya :).
And one other thing – the gay lifestyle is neither normal or healthy. Just check the AIDS stats.

No sense of irony there.

ramrocks on December 17, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Liberals do not have a sense of irony, nor do they have a sense of humor either. Gloomy and hate filled – that’s liberals.

Here’s what BKennedy wrote to me yesterday. Always great to be called a Muslim terrorist.

“And one wonders why “more of you” will be going down to Texas? Is it like the Mujahideen, where you rape one village of all its resources, and then when nothing is left for you, you move on to destroy the next lot you run into?”

No, just sick of rich, fat, gluttonous snake oil sellers like warren, robertson, hagee, etc. passing judgment and spreading hatred on anyone who doesn’t buy the bull they are selling from their disgustingly obscene megachurches/monstrosities.

Noneya on December 17, 2008 at 9:46 PM

Oooooo, noneya, you cut me to the quick. Haw, haw, haw!
Since when did truth become snake oil? Hmmmmm?
Since I’m not a Pastor Rick fan, could you enlighten me on the “bull” he’s preaching from his disgustingly obscene megachurch? What, in your view, is the proper size for a church? Just wonderin.

It’s disgusting how our leaders grovel to this fat homophobe! warren is a disgrace and obama should be ashamed for picking him!

Noneya on December 17, 2008 at 8:19 PM

Well, noneya, I guess that’s something Rick W and I have in common at last. I’m fat and I’ll tell you right up front homosexuality is wrong. So feel free to call me anything you like, if it will make you feel better and boost your self esteem. I’ve been called lots worse by a lot better people than you :).
Oh, btw, noneya – I guess Rev Wright is NOT a disgrace in your worldview, right?

I’m far from well informed about this, but isn’t Warren’s reputation among religious conservatives that of a bit of a squish?

…bit of an understatement, depending on how close to traditional (read: orthodox, with a lower-case “o”) Christianity one is.

…for some, he’s sort of a “homogenized” Christian, mixing “Christianity-lite” with some of the more happy-clappy aspects of the “feel-good” generation…theologically a train wreck, he’s a nice, well-spoken, well-intentioned train wreck….

…and, yet, if there’s anything in the world or beyond it that would make this pseudo-preacher look more sympathetic to religious and non-religious folks alike, it’s the reaction we’re seeing to his being asked to utter a simple prayer (which I’ll lay money doesn’t close with “In Jesus name….”) at The Messiah’s coronation.

…these childish, peevish morons are doing all they can, under the flag of demanding their “due” from the guy they overwhelmingly supported (think “Don Vito Corleone” here), and in doing so are setting themselves at odds with all of the other folks who supported this guy…and all over a single choice of a single guy to say a simple prayer….

…inflexible, self-fascinated, hyper-sensistive, unerringly outraged-on-command, the homosexual community, speaking the language of civil rights, once again proves that they don’t know what rights are, as they seem all to willing to deny them to anyone who doesn’t immediately and consistenly kowtow to them…and certainly don’t know how to be civil….

…they’re once again proving that they’re as distasteful vertically as they are horizontally….

…homosexuals are really their own worst enemy….

I would be compelled to ask the Lord’s forgiveness of the American people for electing Obama.

Phil Byler on December 17, 2008 at 9:09 PM

And I would ask God in the invocation to please hold back His judgment against this country a little while longer while we get this abortion mess fixed. But I’ll bet you a dollar to a donut Warren wont.

I’m far from well informed about this, but isn’t Warren’s reputation among religious conservatives that of a bit of a squish?

In a word, yes. He’s theology lite.
He’s a beach bum with a pulpit. Dont even get me started on his New Age methodology.

Mercy me, how could we have forgotten another famous Chicago preacher: Revrund Jesse Jackson, Sr.!

I mean, being Christian and all, Obama has forgotten the “cut his nuts off” comment.

Wethal on December 17, 2008 at 9:08 PM

Yeah, good point. I’m wondering myself why Rev JJSr isnt doing all this. I would love to see Wright there though :).

“Can you imagine if he had a man of God doing the invocation who had deliberately said that Jews are not going to be saved and therefore should be excluded from what’s going on in America? People would be up in arms,” he said.

Well, in the first place that thing about the Jews is a lie. Not all Jews are going to Hell anymore than all people that call themselves Christians are going to Heaven. Now, people who practice homosexuality (aka sinners) on the other hand, that’s a whole ‘nother thing. No sinner, dying in his sin, regardless of what that sin is, and rejecting Jesus is going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Oh, btw – I’m a sinner saved by grace, ok?
The truth: God will redeem and restore Israel. He said so, He made a covenant with them.
And when is any homosexual excluded from what’s going on in America? They’re a pretty vocal minority.

You should try a little morphine, take the edge off…

Akzed on December 18, 2008 at 9:59 AM

Actually, he should try a little hetero type activity. THAT really does take the edge off. :)

He helped deliver the cafeteria envangelical vote by lending his new age ‘I’m OK you’re OK’ aura to Obama and Obama delivered something a lot more viable than a late term baby with spina bifida

When I have paid attention to this Warren he comes off as not having many convictions. An empty suit who will dance through issues trying not to offend too many people. He’s found a soulmate in Obama.