Birther lawsuit tossed by Kennedy

posted at 2:30 pm on December 17, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy rejected two appeals this afternoon challenging Barack Obama’s eligibility for the Presidency.  One of the two appeals came from Philip Berg, the 9/11 conspiracy theorist who claimed that Obama was born in Kenya and that a conspiracy existed to cover up the alleged Constitutional defect to his candidacy:

Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy has rejected two more efforts to get the court to consider whether President-elect Barack Obama is eligible to take office.

Kennedy on Wednesday denied without comment an appeal by Philip J. Berg, a Pennsylvania attorney, that claims Obama is either a citizen of Kenya or Indonesia and is ineligible to be president because he is not a “natural-born citizen” of the U.S. as required by the Constitution. Another appeal from California, based on Berg’s claims, also was denied.

Individual justices and the entire court have turned down emergency appeals over Obama’s eligibility at least seven times in the past six weeks.

And that puts an end to the entire farce.  Berg can certainly petition another justice, perhaps Scalia or Thomas, who have both sent previous challenges to conference.  However, without Kennedy, the court would almost certainly rule against the appeal, and probably couldn’t get the four votes to even grant certiorari.  Sending it back to conference would do nothing but waste more time.

I’m certain that Obama didn’t stay awake nights worrying about this, and Hawaii officials have publicly attested to the accuracy of the certification Obama released in June.  What will the birther industry do now?  If the 9/11 Truthers give any kind of example, they’ll sell lots of books and keep the flame alive.


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right2blather: Enough talk. LINK.

L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM

right2bright,

Thanks for the research, but I am sorry to say that I find it inadequate. I ask for supporting citations for four of your often repeated assertions.

1. An official Hawaiian State spokesperson in an official statement from the Hawaiian government has officially confirmed that Obama was born in Hawaii.

You refused to provide support due to some immature dispute you are having with some other poster

2. The original information on a birth certificate after an amendment has changed that information with also be reflected in a COLB as opposed to just the amended information

The citation you provided only concerned the BC not the COLB, and when another poster called you on that fact, you said he was mistaken and cited to a page that actually proved you wrong .The page explained that the amendment process was for the BC and did not mention the COLB:

Who is eligible to apply and how to apply for an amendment?
Amended certificates of birth may be prepared and filed with the Department of Health, as provided by law, for 1) a person born in Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health or 2) a person born in a foreign country.

Most pertinent is the language that says a person born in a foreign country can seek an amendment to their Hawaiian birth certificate, and see the next entry where only amendments made after a year are subject to evidentiary burdens:

Late registration, registration one year or more after the date of the event’s occurrence, of certificates are permitted subject to evidentiary requirements.

So, given Hawaii’s procedures, BO’s parents could have secured a Hawaiian BC for their foreign born child merely by attesting to Hawaiian residency then amended it within one year for $3 without any evidentiary burden. Greaaat!

3. No person born outside of Hawaii has ever been issued a COLB indicating that they were born in Hawaii

You offered no proof and requested that I disprove it. Is it unimaginable to you that someone’s parents might want to lie to assure their child the franchise of US citizenship? And if someone committed fraud to get their child citizenship do you think they would admit to the crime.

4. A COLB “is accepted, and has been, as the official birth document by every state agency and every country in the world.

You offered no proof and requested that I disprove it. You could start by proving a COLB as oppose to a BC complies with the Real ID Act.

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 7:47 PM

Uh oh, tommylotto … you didn’t apologize!

L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM

I see your grasp of English is as poor as your grasp of logic. I am assuming nothing. I want proof by an official body that has seen the original BC and verified it.

progressoverpeace on December 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM

…or else what? You assume he does not have one. He’s a US Senator, and won the presidential election, but that doesn’t matter, right? You haven’t demanded the same verification of any other candidate or politician, but that doesn’t matter, right?

If you’re so deluded that you distinguish between assumption and what you believe without proof or evidence, then you’re beyond logic. You’re narcissistic, suffering from ODS, and desperate to cling to hope that we didn’t lose. News flash: we did.

There’s my grasp of English, and I know exactly what I and you are talking about. The problem is that you only recognize taking something for granted as an assumption when someone does it about something you disagree with. It doesn’t matter which way you believe. If you make a supposition about something without evidence to support it, it’s an assumption. I’ve admitted I’m operating on one. Get over yourself and recognize that so are you.

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:00 PM

And once again, Capt’n Ed gets it completely wrong on an issue that is of the utmost fundalmental importance to the very foundation of our Constitution.

According to Capt Ed, in his endless efforts to show that he is unbiased and non-partisan, it doesn’t matter if you were born in the United States, that fundalmental requirement in our Constitution doesn’t matter one iota.

And, no one in fact, according to Capt’n Ed, even has to PROVE it!

Because that’s the only conclusions one can draw from his continual insults and putdowns of people who happen to, legitimately I might add, disagree with him on this issue.

But then again, I’m not surprised!

Dale in Atlanta on December 17, 2008 at 8:02 PM

You offered no proof and requested that I disprove it. You could start by proving a COLB as oppose to a BC complies with the Real ID Act.

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 7:47 PM

Sorry, but you are getting your terms mixed up…it says certificate of birth, which is the COLB. Read it again, and you will see. If you amend the CERTIFICATE of BIRTH you have to show the changes, you can’t amend the birth certificate, that is under “lock and key”. It only makes sense, and it states clearly “certificate of birth”. If you read through all there boring docs you will see certificate of birth, and certificate of live birth are interchanged.

So, given Hawaii’s procedures, BO’s parents could have secured a Hawaiian BC for their foreign born child merely by attesting to Hawaiian residency then amended it within one year for $3 without any evidentiary burden. Greaaat!

Please, read it again, if that is done it must be struck out and written on the COLB “altered”. That is why this argument is not being used anymore (except for you few who have not gotten the memo), it was (thank you) shown to be false.
When you come up with a country or state that does not accept the COLB, show it. So far, after months, none of your birther sites have come up with one…it isn’t up to me to prove that something that doesn’t exist, indeed exists.
If it is legal to change, it is not fraud…no one has come up with one, because if they did, it would have “altered” on the COLB…that’s why your leaders haven’t shown you one.

The real ID Act is not accepted by many states, Alaska, Colorado, quite a few, there are some problems with the act and each state ratifies it or not.
The fact is, if you read the Real ID act, it accepts (grandfathers) in COLB from Hawaii.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM

I’ve admitted I’m operating on one. Get over yourself and recognize that so are you.

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:00 PM

This is exactly where many of us are trying to get people to understand…there is no need to assume anything…it is simply a standard placed in our constitution that our President must be a natural born citizen and we are having to assume something that is not for us to assume but to verify.

So far, no one has done their due diligence and this is for POTUS not some car loan…

javamartini on December 17, 2008 at 8:08 PM

Uh oh, tommylotto … you didn’t apologize!

L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM

See, you can’t help yourself…tommylotto challenged my citations, not so much me.
But go ahead, keep it up, or grow up…your choice.
But now that I asked you to do something even reasonable, you won’t.
Such is the way of an obstinate child.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:09 PM

right2blather: Enough talk. LINK.

L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM

I missed that, an new put down…well good for you.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:10 PM

This is exactly where many of us are trying to get people to understand…there is no need to assume anything…it is simply a standard placed in our constitution that our President must be a natural born citizen and we are having to assume something that is not for us to assume but to verify.

javamartini on December 17, 2008 at 8:08 PM

Again, not for US to verify, but for the appointed government officials to verify.

And again, with every past presidential candidate, though no birther seems willing to admit it, we (those not appointed to verify) assumed the winner had a birth certificate. Now, all of a sudden, we assume differently.

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:12 PM

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM

No the page you cited was an information page on how to get a certified copy of vital records. That would be the page BO would go to if he wanted to request a copy of his original BC to respond to one of these lawsuits.

Vital records (birth, death, marriage, and divorce certificates) for events that occurred in Hawaii are received and preserved by the Office of Health Status Monitoring, a unit of the Department of Health. … Certified copies of these records may be issued to authorized individuals and used for such diverse purposes as school entry, passports, Social Security participation, driver’s licenses, employment, sports participation, survivor’s benefits, proof of property rights, and other needs.

Nowhere is the abbreviated COLB mentioned.

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 8:25 PM

Again, not for US to verify,

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:12 PM

I dont care who its up to as long as it gets done…and you are correct, up until this blatantly crooked political machine came into play, I never did once question the validity of our past President in this regard, but if you think this was a normal election….then you have not been paying attention.

javamartini on December 17, 2008 at 8:27 PM

I dont care who its up to as long as it gets done…and you are correct, up until this blatantly crooked political machine came into play, I never did once question the validity of our past President in this regard, but if you think this was a normal election….then you have not been paying attention.

javamartini on December 17, 2008 at 8:27 PM

It was a worthless, annoying, draining election. However, as I’ve said, the initiative behind this “movement” seems to me more rooted in election fatigue mixed with disappointment rather than actual worry about eligibility.

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:30 PM

this “movement” seems to me more rooted in election fatigue mixed with disappointment rather than actual worry about eligibility.

MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 8:30 PM

That’s only half right. On a personal level, I am convinced Obama and friends are criminals who know how to abuse the system and are convinced themselves that they do this because it is best for the little people…Robin Hoods…because of this image I have of him and his friends, I am under the impression that not being a Natural Born Citizen is not something they care about and are capable of overlooking since, as you say, no one has ever made a big deal about this.

All that said, nothing would please me more than to see this empty suit be disgraced by a technicality. We got Al Capone in a similar way…BO is a much larger fish in my opinion and much more dangerous.

javamartini on December 17, 2008 at 8:40 PM

Oklahoma is passing a law that says you must provide a birth certificate to run for any office – to get your name on any ballot – in any election.

Woody

woodcdi on December 17, 2008 at 8:47 PM

blatantblue on December 17, 2008 at 3:03 PM

I don’t think those who want to see the vault copy of the BC are upset with Ed or Allah for there defferent view of the matter, I believe it is because they choose to belittle those who just want to see the bc. Call them birthers, like truthers. It is insulting to about 50% of the readers of this site.
I don’t know if Ed reads these post, but Ed you should be more respectful of the readers here. Make your arguments are report things as you see them. But don’t insult us. Most people that question the natural born cit, just want to see the vault bc, and dont give a crap about what passport he used, or if he went to school in a nother country.

But thanks for insulting us.

kara26 on December 17, 2008 at 8:52 PM

Nowhere is the abbreviated COLB mentioned.

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 8:25 PM

Vital records (birth, death, marriage, and divorce certificates) for events that occurred in Hawaii are received and preserved by the Office of Health Status Monitoring, a unit of the Department of Health. … Certified copies of these records may be issued to authorized individuals and used for such diverse purposes as school entry, passports, Social Security participation, driver’s licenses, employment, sports participation, survivor’s benefits, proof of property rights, and other needs.

See the words, Certified Copies, I highlighted it.
Whenever Hawaii talks about certificate of birth, they are talking about the COLB, since (for the hundreth time) that is the only document they issue. Every Hawaiian (for the hundreth time) gets issued this, and this is their official birth document that they carry with them throughout their life. Under special circumstances, but rarely, you or someone with a “tangible” interest can request the actual birth certificate.
But under the law of all states, and yes even the Real ID act, the COLB, or certificate of birth, or certified copy of birth, and a few other names, it all points back to one document…the COLB.
You and a few others are concerned, do you know how many millions of passports have been issued with this certificate, how many deaths through probate?
You have now pointed out twice, something that you have a hard time accepting, but it is in black and white…do you think that every citizen of Hawaii, every state agency in America, have been hoodwinked for 50 years? By millions of false and possible fraudulent ID’s?
You are proposing that you know more about this then the state of Hawaii, that you (and a dozen others) have found a loophole that attorneys, for actually 75 years have never seen…the probate courts have just allowed whomever to have the assets of an estate?
What you and literally just a few uninformed, unschooled, uneducated (in the COLB arena), people are saying that you know something that for 75 years, judges, attorney, probate courts, law officials, have never known, never had any conception this could happen.
That is why they say “struck out” and “altered”, and that is why only a few fringe, who do not understand or have knowledge is still pursuing this…because they don’t know better.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:54 PM

But thanks for insulting us.

kara26 on December 17, 2008 at 8:52 PM

Your welcome, you deserve it…it is embarrassing that conservatives are taking up with people like Berg, and acting like truthers.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:55 PM

Sorry, but you are getting your terms mixed up…it says certificate of birth, which is the COLB. Read it again, and you will see. If you amend the CERTIFICATE of BIRTH you have to show the changes, you can’t amend the birth certificate, that is under “lock and key”. It only makes sense, and it states clearly “certificate of birth”. If you read through all there boring docs you will see certificate of birth, and certificate of live birth are interchanged.

right2bright, there are 3 different things

1. Birth Certificate

2. Certificate of Birth

3. Certification of Live Birth

Why they had to name these vastly differing documents in such a confusing way is unfortunate. The certificate of birth and the certification of live birth are not interchangeable. This is where we are all getting hung up and disagreeing.

The ammended documents with the stamp are on the vault copy that is kept under lock and key. Think about it. If you are adopted and your adoptive parents change your original BC it is not going to have the original info struck through on your COLB for all the world to see.

mrsmwp on December 17, 2008 at 9:11 PM

I screwed up the quote thing, but you get my point I’m sure.

mrsmwp on December 17, 2008 at 9:11 PM

mrsmwp on December 17, 2008 at 9:11 PM

I think, and I really don’t want to belabor this point.
but there are three forms, what they are:
Birth certificate, that one is one and only one with the actual birth and is unchangeable.
second are certificate of birth and certificate of live birth and certification of live birth, those are all the same.
Third is certificate of birth ID, that is used in place of drivers license, for ID purposes, it comes from the COLB, certificate of birth, etc.
The two ID’s that the state talks about, because state officials can see them without court orders are the COLB (and other names), and the Certificate of ID, or COLB ID, or COB ID.
The actual birth certificate cannot be changed, it can’t be even seen without special permission.

Amended certificates of birth may be prepared and filed with the Department of Health

See where it says certificates of birth, they are not talking about the birth certificate, there is no place they can change that.

Good grief…if you could change the original, then what good would it be?
I can’t believe I am talking about these very simple and basic concepts…unbelievable.
Read my other post, do you think that you birthers have found something that thousands of judges, thousands of attorneys, thousands of officials, thousands of probate courts, thousands of law officers, have overlooked?

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 9:26 PM

One more observation. If any of the 50 states passes a law in the next 4 years requiring direct submission of a long form birth certificate direct to the Secretary of State from the home towns of the presidential candidates, then if Obama decides to run again in 4 years for a second term, then the truth will come out via that method too. So this is not over by a long shot. The one thing this whole fiasco has proven is that there is no vetting of the presidential candidates occurring under the current system, it’s all based on “Scout’s honor” right now.

marti124 on December 17, 2008 at 9:29 PM

One other document, minor but important, there is a “late birth certificate”. It is marked as late, that is the only one that could be construed as a valid birth certificate of someone born somewhere else. You would have to have dual certificates, and the one they choose has to have collaborting evidence, but it could be a “changed” birth certificate. It is noted as a “changed” birth certificate, and the official name is “late birth certificate”.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 9:36 PM

“…it is embarrassing that conservatives are taking up with people like Berg, and acting like truthers.”

Actually it is embarrassing that so many here resort to ad hominem insults against the skeptics who simply ask for proof of Consitutionality, a proof that is simple and attainable, and that they have agreed to accept from the beginning, but which for some reason now must not be provided, as if on some great principle.

The lack of specificity around Barack Obama’s birth, childhood, young adulthood and education, which are not only manifestly obvious to an honest observer, but unique in US Presidential history, should demand the he produce the proof, and if he is of a character to be entrusted with this office, he would do so eagerly, and ignore any slight that might be implied to his personal integrity. Yet his personal esteem seems to outweigh the impersonal concerns of many citizens, and none of the insult-hurlers seem to find this at all strange.

He does not chose the high road and is praised, while those that ask him to are reviled for the asking. Contrivance never smelled as strong.

I did not start out on this side of the argument, but the behaviors of the other side, and Mr. Obama, have brought me reluctantly to it.

Of the many deprecations which will now be cast upon these words here, hopefully at least a few will not be contrived to avoid the actual thrust of my arguments.

drunyan8315 on December 17, 2008 at 9:44 PM

I missed that, an new put down…well good for you.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:10 PM

“You deserve it.”

L.N. Smithee on December 17, 2008 at 9:47 PM

drunyan8315 on December 17, 2008 at 9:44 PM
good points there. I might add that the AOL poll on this topic showed a majority of respondents to want authentication done of Obama’s Birth Certificate. Too bad Gallup or some other polling company does not do a scientific poll but it looks like if they did, it would be heavily loaded such as “When did you stop beating your spouse?” This whole things seems like an “Alice in Wonderland” scenario. It is so odd that 98% of the rightwing media no longer gives a hoot about the US constitution’s plain and unambiguous requirements being adhered to and would rather focus only on the ambiguous requirements in the US constitution (there are plenty of those). Another image that comes to mind is the story of the King without any clothes on and all the media back then acting as if the King had clothes on.

marti124 on December 17, 2008 at 9:58 PM

Exit Question:
Does this result make tinfoil hat stock rise, or fall?

benny shakar on December 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Well, it seems that, Constitutionally, at least, America has just got the finger.

OldEnglish on December 17, 2008 at 10:34 PM

Because as long as he holds it back, the more he emboldens lunatics like you, and the louder you get, the more idiotic all conservatives look.

Even if this were true (and I doubt he is as diabolical as to think along these lines, believe it or not), it still leaves something not wonderful in a President.

Don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want anyone in my life who hid as much as this guy does.

So even if he was born in Hawaii to a mother who was a citizen, with all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed (which seems highly probable), what is so wonderful about what’s left – a guy who hides everything even when it isn’t necessary?

Nothing, that’s what.

Alana on December 17, 2008 at 11:06 PM

ight2bright on December 17, 2008 at 9:26 PM

You are just dead wrong. A certified copy of a birth certificate is a copy of the original birth certificate that is certified to be authentic. That is what that cite is talking about. What BO has produced is a CERTIFICATION of live birth, not a birth CERTIFICATE. These are two very different things and a CERTIFICATION of live birth is NOT sufficient to establish that you are a native Hawaiian entitled to the additional rights of a native. See here:

In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 11:29 PM

drunyan8315 wrote:

Actually it is embarrassing that so many here resort to ad hominem insults against the skeptics who simply ask for proof of Consitutionality, a proof that is simple and attainable, and that they have agreed to accept from the beginning, but which for some reason now must not be provided, as if on some great principle.

Exactly. Thanks for getting it.

If one chooses to believe what Saddam Hussein told his interrogator, the reason why he would not allow Gulf War treaty-required inspections to prove he was not concealing weapons of mass destruction was because he didn’t want Iran to know for a certainty he really did not — he wanted to preserve the presumption that he was pulling the wool over the UN’s eyes, and that nukes were at the ready if Iran tried any funny business. But in order to create that image, he had to look as if he was hiding something he wasn’t actually hiding.

That’s what Barack Hussein — if he’s truly qualified to be POTUS — is doing now. He’s fighting these charges in a court of law not by issuing proof, but by arguing that no plaintiffs have standing to demand proof. He’s hiding something that doesn’t need hiding if he’s telling the truth. We don’t, however, know what his motivation is for not ending it — like you said, no “great principle.”

Maybe it’s a Hussein thing, and we don’t understand.

L.N. Smithee on December 18, 2008 at 12:27 AM

tommylotto on December 17, 2008 at 11:29 PM

If you can’t read the website, with it’s very simple and direct information, I can’t help you.
You are saying that all the judges, attorneys, have never seen what you have seen…every Hawaiian, since 1911 till 1972 was given a COLB, and only a COLB, that is what they used for the official document for passport, license, welfare, etc.
They should fire all the judges who went through probate, with what you consider an illegal document…
Here is a hint…read, and read it again, and then again, and maybe you will see what the judges, attorney’s, officials, state dept., military all see.
Sheeesh, this is why this will never be settled, people can’t read a simple document….God help us.

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 12:44 AM

And here is your answer to #1, you guys are as koo-koo as they get…I now understand how the 9/11 crowd hang in there, they do exactly what you do, they “learn” not to read, they “learn” not to understand, and they “learn” not to accept facts, it must be quite a talent.
Answer to #1:

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said in the three paragraph statement.
“No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i,” the statement concludes.

That you have seen many times, but this gem is from the Chicago Tribune, as a verbal comment, and followed up by email for confirmation.

Does this mean Obama was born in Hawaii?
“Yes,” said Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo, in both email and telephone interviews with the Tribune. “That’s what Dr. Fukino is saying.”

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?
“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”
“Hopefully this will end the speculation.”

You are welcome.
Now, you have the quote, enjoy ignoring this, enjoy saying it isn’t proof, enjoy saying you reject it, and you will find something wrong with it…you have to, or your whole premise falls apart…you have no choice.
Which is why no matter what is given to you guys, you won’t believe.
A website, easily written, where everyone for 75 years understands it,except the birthers.
Then this quote, given by the official spokesperson, but you won’t accept it, because you are birthers.
If the original was shown to you, you wouldn’t accept it…trust me, you are hooked on the cult, and nothing will sway your “feelings” about this, because facts get in your way.
Notice that Romeo is no longer in your corner? Why is that, because he finally got beaten down with the facts.
Take heed, you are the last of a dying breed…a few die hard birthers, ignoring the simple facts before you…such is the public education system.
Follow your leader Berg, as he pushes forward with his lawsuit to prove that Bush planned 9/11…think for a minute, that is who you are following, that is the mindset you think is right…you are all fools

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 12:59 AM

Sorry “right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 12:59 AM”, Fukino did not state in writing or verbatim (a) that she saw the long form birth certificate and (b) that it states Obama was born in Hawaii, she says what she said, nothing more can be taken from that statement. What spokeswoman Janice Okubo is quoted as saying is second hand opinion in legal parlance and is not a direct source who has seen the document. It is up to Fukino to directly make a clear and unambiguous statement, which she has not. If she is upset with how people are reacting, she has nobody but herself to blame.

What gets me is how quick Michelle and Allah can spot a dubious testimony from some of the hucksters on the right but when something feels very fishy from the “The One”, it is “yep, I believe the redacted digital shorthand birth certificate” despite the fact at the bottom of it — it says “any alteration voids this document”. Blacking out the certificate number is a clear alteration of the document. For that reason alone, THAT document can not be trusted. Hawaii tells all viewers not to trust it.

And furthermore the quotes you provide above state nothing about the certificate that Obama has posted on his web site.

marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 1:23 AM

What’s your stake right2bright? Why fight so hard when you have nothing new to add? Your answer is to tell me to read it again? I did, and it keeps talking about certified copies of birth certificates, not CERTIFICATIONS of live birth, and you courageous ignored the cite I provided that explains that there is a difference. Where’s your cite explaining the COLB is valid for identification purposes? Show me a citation to Hawaiian law stating that a CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH shows information amended on the birth certificate. Look here.

And please, STOP with that quote cobbled together by that reporter. The official statement was issued by Fukino and said nothing about place of birth. Then a person who a reporter describes as a “spokesperson” says “Yes” on the phone and in an email and that “yes” is attributed to a question concerning BO’s place of birth. We are only given the context spoon fed by the reporter. Sorry, but I do not buy it. Not after Rathergate, Fauxtography, etc. It may be true, but that unofficial statement by an unofficial spokesperson that may or may not have been improperly attributed to the question of place of birth (plus $3) will only buy you a Starbucks coffee. It certainly will not get you a drivers license, on an airplane or even qualify you to be POTUS.

tommylotto on December 18, 2008 at 1:30 AM

Just so it is 100% clear, right2bright, Fukino’s quote can be broken down into two sentences. It reads:

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said in the three paragraph statement.

One could have it read “I have personally seen that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures” and “I have verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures” — neither of those sentences is stating that she has READ or SEEN the actual “original birth certificate on record” — what she has seen is that this document is “ON RECORD IN ACCORDANCE…” this is what she has verified that ‘this document is “ON RECORD IN ACCORDANCE…”‘. Why is everybody reading more into her statement than what she is clearly stating? I remember the movie, The Last Emperor. “A gentleman says what he means and means what he says.” Let’s leave Fukino’s statement as meaning what she said, not what anyone else wants it to mean.

marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 1:35 AM

tommylotto on December 18, 2008 at 1:30 AM

You are almost to dense to respond to.
certified is not the same as original…certified birth,oh never mind, you don’t want to see…unbelievable.
Now, did you see who that spokes person was, who you said is

Then a person who a reporter describes as a “spokesperson”

This is what make you guys look so stupid…she was the official spokesperson for the dept. She is the one who answers the official questions…she is the “go-to” spokesperson. She was there, at the official announcement to clarify any statements and to take questions, and she was there after for interviews….she clarified it with an affirmative, she was speaking for the state of Hawaii…see even when an official states it, you guys whine about it.
No matter what is given you, you dozen guys whine.
You are so much smarter then all the judges in Hawaii, how did you get so smart?

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 1:53 AM

Janice Okubo is quoted as saying is second hand opinion in legal parlance and is not a direct source who has seen the document. It is up to Fukino to directly make a clear and unambiguous statement, which she has not. If she is upset with how people are reacting, she has nobody but herself to blame.
marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 1:23 AM

Are you an attorney…I didn’t think so, so why do you use statements like “in legal parlance” when you have no idea what “legal parlance” means. It make you sound stupid.
She isn’t upset, she is frustrated by the idiots who ask her a questions, that she answers.
A spokesperson has the legal right to confer information on behalf of their client. That hold up in a court of law…this was an official statement, not meant as a flippant comment, but a clarification of what you have a difficult time to read…funny that most attorneys do not have a problem with what was stated, and the follow up was quite clear…was he born in Hawaii, yes..end of debate, now go back to the playstation…

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 1:58 AM

Blacking out the certificate number is a clear alteration of the document. For that reason alone, THAT document can not be trusted. Hawaii tells all viewers not to trust it.

And furthermore the quotes you provide above state nothing about the certificate that Obama has posted on his web site.

marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 1:23 AM

His certificate on his website says birth in Hawaii and the date, what more do you want?
Oh, you believe that is fake also, my God, how gullible are you? Supposedly your expert found 5 things wrong, well all 5 were not wrong, and your “expert” never has come forward, your expert who said that there was only one fold, but there were two…BTW, I have one that doesn’t have any folds, I must not be real…stupid as I have ever seen, I have never in my life seen more stupidity over something so obvious…you know the liberals are laughing at you don’t you?
Hey stupid, that was already covered, they blacked it out because that is private information, Obama is the one who later released it with the numbers. It was stated by the spokesperson…read the original transcript of the meeting and you will see the black out mentioned. You know, kind of like blacking out a SS#, the one he released on the internet has all the numbers, has the seal, has the signature, and has no “alteration” on it.
Sorry Charlie…you are a loser.
You must love that Berg guy…he’s a loser also.

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 2:07 AM

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 5:12 PM

Dude you seem intelligent but you really don’t play fair. I am on page two I I have read 5+ of your comments where you say things to the effect of
“Just Google it” “Research more” followed by “where did you hear that” or “where’s the link” yet you have the audacity to hold yourself to the same standard you throw ouot statements about “so and so said this” or “it’s been shown that…” and never once have you posted a link to back up your position is it you think everyone else is lazy or are you just lazy yourself (not meant to offend just a straightforward question!)

RedLizard64 on December 18, 2008 at 2:13 AM

I am with tommylotto on this… “right2bright” eh, not2brite…can not hold himself to the same standards he demands form others , the one link he did post did not answer ANY of the main assertions of his opponents in this discussion!

RedLizard64 on December 18, 2008 at 2:21 AM

If you read through all there boring docs you will see certificate of birth, and certificate of live birth are interchanged.

right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM

YOur statement is a LIE…Some entities may accept either but they are not the same

From a conservative site

And to show my intellectual honesty a citing that supports your position…am am not arguing against your position only your methodology.

And one more that points out the issue is not whether the short form “attests” to the the existence of the original but rather that the original and Hawaii state law conflict wherein his HI birth certificate may proof citizenship, but NOT “Natural born citizenship” in accordance with federally mnadated contsitutional requirements!

RedLizard64 on December 18, 2008 at 2:39 AM

right2bright:

While I am taking no position with regard to citizenship here, I believe a correction is in order: Even the State of Hawaii regards a COLB (which is a “Certification” of Live Birth, not a Birth Certificate) as insufficient for the purposes of establishing one’s bona fides as a native Hawaiian by blood. Those who submit a Certification in lieu of a Certificate are informed, upfront, that the additional inquiries required to confirm the Certification will delay the official finding. Thus, they recommend providing a valid Birth Certificate instead.

I’m sorry I can’t provide you with a link, as my bookmarks are on a different computer, but the process is outlined on the State of Hawaii’s website. While the matter being determined is not an issue of American citizenship itself, I believe it certainly bears on the relative legitimacy of Certifications vs. Certificates

JM Hanes on December 18, 2008 at 2:47 AM

Let’s see the birth certificate and why won’t Obama show it?

scrubjay on December 18, 2008 at 7:04 AM

Regarding the COLB which surfaced on the net, this was a recent reproduction (2007, I believe) which would carry the short form of information – in its latest/current/amended form, if any amendments had been made around 45 years ago.

Also, the short form is missing extra information, such as the hospital of birth, the parents place of residence – at the time of the birth, their religion, ages, etc.

I am of the opinion that it is within this extra information that the skeleton lies.

OldEnglish on December 18, 2008 at 7:58 AM

ROFL! I sure stired up a hornets nest by asking for simple things…

1) Open the vault and show everyone the proof…

2) Do NOT call me out as the same think as a “truthier”, I know exactly what happened on 9/11 and it was NOT an inside job.

3) Do NOT question my Reagan Conservatisiam…

Other then that, right2bright on December 17, 2008 at 7:43 PM and MadisonConservative on December 17, 2008 at 7:35 PM along with Ed can call me all the names in the book. I can take it. I feel strongly about the Constutution and rule of law, it’s clear the before mentioned do not. I stand by what I have posted, that those calling folks like me a “tin foil hatter” are the ones who probably never question things that just don’t add up, they are the same as those who have been conned to the tune of 50 Billion recently. They refuse to even think about the reasonable possibility that our concerns might be worth a second look. cThey are the same kinds of folks who live in a world where everyone is telling the truth, like BHO and Reszko, Wright and Farakhan. They never connect the dots or look at patterns of corruption, lies and payoffs. They probably think BHO is clean on the Blago thing also. MC, Ed, Alla & Not2 are the minority on this thread, seems there are more like me then like them here at HA… I guess we are all wrong and they 4 are the smart ones. They come off as pompus butts, but we are the kooks.

Mark Garnett on December 18, 2008 at 8:06 AM

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 2:07 AM, IMHO, you are not what the English Tutor referred to when he said, “A Gentleman says what he means and means what he says,” — because you are reading more into the words than what is said. This is America, you have that right. It does not make your position correct on the face of it. You could be right. But what you provide is not strong and convincing evidence. As for your question, I am not a lawyer but my first cousin is. I am not trying to change your mind, just call you on the shortcomings of your statements versus the evidence you provide. By the way, the document clearly says “Any alteration…” Blacking out the certificate number is an alteration – the State of Hawaii states as it states (it does not provide an exception), and where does your quotes from the Hawaii officials state otherwise? In any event, this is not an issue going away. Indicted criminals have their sixth amendment defense option, State legislatures can pass a vetting law in one of the 50 states in the next 4 years. This is far from over.

marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 9:39 AM

Ed, light-bright, mad-cow conservative — who did you vote for in the primary and who did you vote for POTUS.

And…. Oh never mind, to quote our great defender of the ONE, “You Just Want Get It”

kara26 on December 18, 2008 at 10:31 AM

right2bright on December 18, 2008 at 2:07 AM — the blacking out of the certificate number, there is nothing private in that item of information. By the way, do you always call people stupid whom you carry on a debate with? It’s obvious you never learned the ways of a member of a debate club or the ways of how gentleman dispute things. There are courses out there that can help you though.

marti124 on December 18, 2008 at 10:52 AM

mad-cow conservative — who did you vote for in the primary and who did you vote for POTUS.

kara26 on December 18, 2008 at 10:31 AM

Cute name. I’d come up with one for you, but I’m not smitten in kind.

I voted for Thompson in the primary, and McCain in the election, something which I have come to regret given McCain’s behavior since the election.

MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 10:53 AM

I’m certain that Obama didn’t stay awake nights worrying about this,

.
Nah, B Hussein just spent a MILLION DOLLARS fighting it all.

shooter on December 18, 2008 at 1:30 PM

I voted for Thompson in the primary….

MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 10:53 AM

He thinks that proves his conservative credentials. Rather, it just goes to show that Fredheads were just a bunch of meatheads ;-)

tommylotto on December 18, 2008 at 1:41 PM

MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 10:53 AM

come on you have to admit it was funny. LOL

kara26 on December 18, 2008 at 1:50 PM

This is a quote that will be loved and adored -

If you voted for anyone other than the huskter then you wasted your vote. Pound for pound he could have kept up with the one in charisma and communication skills. I have said it before and will say it again, I have alot of friends who are donating, working living and breathing card caring dems and the only person they were worried about was the huskter. I am noting saying i am in love with the man, next thing you know there will be post about huckers, LOL

kara26 on December 18, 2008 at 1:56 PM

I’m of the mind this whole birth certificate/certificate of live birth thing is a time waster. There are bigger fish to fry.
Besides, whatever Obama gave to the US Department Of State to get a passport was good enough for them to issue him one, then it’s good enough for me.

abcurtis on December 18, 2008 at 2:03 PM

tommylotto on December 18, 2008 at 1:41 PM

No BKennedy or csdeven around so you can be the Three Stooges. Such a shame.

MadisonConservative on December 18, 2008 at 2:04 PM

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