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This is good reading on basic economics:

For decades, lawmakers in the US have tried showing solidarity with the working class by championing the minimum wage and demanding increases in it……

At the expense of what others, illegal aliens? It’s amazing what some people will say in public.

You are of the belief that working people making 8 bucks an hour should voluntarily ask to have their wages cut in half for their own benefit and their nation’s benefit, aren’t you? That would make us more competitive with China and that would be good for everyone, isn’t that right?

The things people will say on blogs. Amazing.

Buddahpundit on December 15, 2008 at 11:59 PM

Why do you insist on making everything about illegal aliens? Are you only able to handle one concept at at time?

As I have said many times already, the others are the other workers who will have their wages cut so that employers can pay the minimum wage workers more. The others are the customers who have to pay more so that the minimum wage workers can be paid more.

As to workers at the current minimum who would get a pay cut. Good. If they are being paid more than their labor is worth, then they are stealing. Life’s a b$tch when you have no skills. The solution is to get the skills, not cry to govt to get a raise.

As to being competitive. DO you really think that being less competitive helps anyone?

At the expense of what others, illegal aliens? It’s amazing what some people will say in public.

You are of the belief that working people making 8 bucks an hour should voluntarily ask to have their wages cut in half for their own benefit and their nation’s benefit, aren’t you? That would make us more competitive with China and that would be good for everyone, isn’t that right?

The things people will say on blogs. Amazing.

Buddahpundit on December 15, 2008 at 11:59 PM

You are a one trick pony, aren’t you. You view everything in the light of the thing that scares you the most. Illegal aliens. Do you check under your bed for them everynight?

As I explained several times previously, (but you couldn’t see or understand because you insist that every thing be about illegals) is that the other loosers in this scam are the workers who have to have their wages cut, so that those making minimum can be paid more. The others are the consumers who have to pay more for products so that the minimum wage workers can be paid more.

As to workers getting their wages cut, if they are currently being paid more than their labor is worth, then they are stealing, and should have their wages cut. Life’s a bitch when you have no skills. Trying to use govt to make life fair is doomed to failure.

BTW, why do you believe that being competitive won’t help everybody?

I see your history is as bad as your economics.
The Democrats were the party of slavery, not Republicans.

Secondly, why is a low minimum wage bad? Why do you want to force low skill workers out of the job market?

It greatly troubles me when I see people arguing that Unions are affected by the minimum wage. Very few if any union workers earn even close to minimum wage. No one in their right mind would choose a Union when they are making near minimum wage. This is widely known and again destroys our credibility when we argue otherwise.

The effect minimum wage has on unions is that their wages are usually tied to minimum wage, which means when minimum wage goes up so do union wages. This is why the unions are some of the biggest proponents of minimum wage increases, and one of the reasons the Dems are so eager to give them.

Your attempts to get some people a higher wage at the expense of others is doomed to failure, just as every other attempt to gin the market in favor of one group or another has failed.

MarkTheGreat on December 15, 2008 at 6:25 PM

At the expense of what others, illegal aliens? It’s amazing what some people will say in public.

You are of the belief that working people making 8 bucks an hour should voluntarily ask to have their wages cut in half for their own benefit and their nation’s benefit, aren’t you? That would make us more competitive with China and that would be good for everyone, isn’t that right?

The things people will say on blogs. Amazing.

Once upon a time Republicans supported slavery, that was wrong, just as too low a minimum wage is wrong.

Are you kidding me, you dumbs–t?! The Republican party was found in the latter part of the 1850′s to combat the spread of slavery! Lincoln himself found the entire establishment’s stand too moderate, at the time!

At least get your facts straight!

You’ve got the chicken and egg scenario wrong. The minimum wage hike came first, then came recession. We’ve only been in a recession for one quarter, maybe two.

Q4 07 saw negative growth before the new minimum wage. Furthermore the effect of the new minimum wage was hardly enough to turn the economy. Why did oil go to $150 / brl? Manipulation of markets caused the recession. We all know that. At least that combined with fraudulent policies from the left forcing loans for those who could not afford them.

I’m hardly liberal. Obama is an Anti-Christ Liberals fight on Satan’s side. I hate everything about liberals including the likes of McCain who cheapens the Republican brand.

But I believe in telling the truth as well. We cheapen ourselves when we tell lies to try to support an overly low minimum wage. Once upon a time Republicans supported slavery, that was wrong, just as too low a minimum wage is wrong. Is it worth losing Congress and the Presidency to keep the minimum wage low? We consistently do that. It gets too low and we lose elections. We do the same thing time and time again without learning form it.

It greatly troubles me when I see people arguing that Unions are affected by the minimum wage. Very few if any union workers earn even close to minimum wage. No one in their right mind would choose a Union when they are making near minimum wage. This is widely known and again destroys our credibility when we argue otherwise.

I feel we could make a persuasive argument for a reasonable minimum wage. One that does not ignore the plight of those on the lowest edges of society. We should realize that adults working for these wages still have basic needs. Needs that society will not ignore. The only question is who pays.

When companies that higher hundreds of employees at near minimum wage do not pay for the health care of their near full time employees our taxes do. Are we really arguing for higher taxes? Seems to me we are. I guarantee America is long past the time of just letting the poor die from curable illnesses.

We are long the past the time of Americans starving to death. The only question is who pays the cost, the employer of full time workers or should the rest of us pay twice? Once for ourselves and once again for the cheapskate employers employees.

The main goal of the illegal alien/poverty laborer importers is to drive down wages and increase the gap between rich and poor.

So you honestly believe that nobody but the rich benefits from cheap prices?
You honestly believe that pricing American goods out of the international markets benefits the rich?

This kind of rich vs. poor class welfare nonsense is typical liberal garbage, but populists drink from that poisoned well just as eagerly.

Your attempts to get some people a higher wage at the expense of others is doomed to failure, just as every other attempt to gin the market in favor of one group or another has failed.

So the true goal of the stop illegal aliens movement is to guarentee that all American products are to expensive to be bought by anyone but Americans?

Of course the next step will be to seal the borders against all those products that are now so much cheaper than those being built by Americans.

Can you say Smoot-Hawley boys and girls.

MarkTheGreat on December 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM

The main goal of the illegal alien/poverty laborer importers is to drive down wages and increase the gap between rich and poor.

If that strikes you as liberal rhetoric, consider that it is the liberals who are behind it. They can only stay in power with a hopeless majority of willing parasites. You are in lockstep with Ted Kennedy and the other radical leftists on immigration issues, as I’m sure you would freely admit.

However, if you can’t afford (or, more commonly, won’t afford) to pay someone minimum wage to do a job, then you certainly aren’t the kind of businessperson who’s going to buy a machine (with commensurate capitalization costs far exceeding the salary you would pay) to replace those people whom you are unable (or unwilling) to pay.

If you truely believe this, then your understanding of economics ends at the UAW’s door.

Why should any businessman pay anyone more than they have to?

As to the costs of automation, you need to get out more, it’s coming down, fast. I also believe that you have an unnecessarily restrictive view of what automation is.
Have you noticed that many restaurants, a number of people are wearing mikes and headphones? That’s automation, it allows the people to be more productive by communicating with each other without having to run around.

My position is that, as evil as the minimum wage might be, our economy (as well as our society) is structured to function properly with it in place. Remove it, and unforeseen side effects (such as the equivalent to the Luddite movement) will occur.

The idea that the minimum wage is irredeemably built in to our economy is such a load of horse squeezings, that I don’t even know where to begin in deconstructing it.

I’m arguing that if you price labor too high, it will be replaced by machines.

I’m having trouble seeing how the two arguments are identical.

MarkTheGreat on December 15, 2008 at 3:02 PM

Labor is ALWAYS too high in the mind of the employer, and an employer looking to cut their wage burden certainly will consider machines (where they are available) as an alternative. However, if you can’t afford (or, more commonly, won’t afford) to pay someone minimum wage to do a job, then you certainly aren’t the kind of businessperson who’s going to buy a machine (with commensurate capitalization costs far exceeding the salary you would pay) to replace those people whom you are unable (or unwilling) to pay. And, if you are the kind of businessperson to buy the machine, you would have bought it anyway, for reasons other than the wage — such as reliability.

My position is that, as evil as the minimum wage might be, our economy (as well as our society) is structured to function properly with it in place. Remove it, and unforeseen side effects (such as the equivalent to the Luddite movement) will occur. You can do what the British did (call in the Army, and kill people over property crimes), or you can give the Luddites a sop which prevents them from destroying.

It’s stupid to talk about minimum wage without the context of poverty labor importation, legal and illegal. Kick the illegal aliens out of the country and end immigration of poor people and all workers wages will double or triple immediately and employers will have to provide great benefits or no one will work for them. If we must have a poverty labor/illegal labor economy, I would push to raise the minimum wage to $40 an hour.

Buddahpundit on December 15, 2008 at 3:06 PM

So the true goal of the stop illegal aliens movement is to guarentee that all American products are to expensive to be bought by anyone but Americans?

Of course the next step will be to seal the borders against all those products that are now so much cheaper than those being built by Americans.

Can you say Smoot-Hawley boys and girls.

I disagree. Inflation is nothing more than decreased purchasing power per unit of money, and can arise from many circumstances.

I encourage you to check with any econ book.

The reason purchasing power goes down is because there are more dollars in circulation than things to buy with them. Basic law of supply and demand.

Asset inflation does not and cannot cause general inflation. The reason for this is simple and intuitive. When the price of one thing goes up. People spend more on that one thing. Since there is a fixed supply of money, this means that less is being spent on everything else. Which in turn means that fewer items of everything else are being bought. Lowered demand in other areas means a drop in prices for those other things.

To recap. With asset inflation, an increase in price in one thing results in a drop in price for everything else. The increase and the decrease cancel out, so there is zero general inflation caused. Only by increasing the money supply so that the value of the dollar itself is affected, can general inflation be caused.