World markets take a beating on bailout failure; Update: White House “considering” TARP fund loan; Update: TARP funds coming
posted at 9:16 am on December 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Doing the right thing doesn’t necessarily mean that no negative consequences will arise, and the world markets have delivered those this morning after the failure of the automaker bailout package last night in the Senate. International exchange indexes have dropped between three to six percent overnight on the news, and the futures market for Wall Street looks equally grim:
World stock markets plunged Friday as the U.S. Senate’s rejection of a $14 billion deal to rescue Detroit’s ailing automakers stoked concerns that the recession in the world’s largest economy will be even longer and deeper than projected.
The FTSE 100 of leading British shares was down 127.87 points, or 2.9 percent, at 4,260.82, while Germany’s DAX fell 185.22 points, or 3.9 percent, to 4,581.98. The CAC-40 in France fell 130.48 points, or 4.0 percent, to 3,175.65.
Earlier, Asian markets tumbled, with Japan’s Nikkei 225 stock average down 484.68 points, or 5.6 percent, to 8,235.87. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index slid 5.5 percent to 14,758.39.
U.S. stock index futures pointed to a big sell-off later on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrial average was projected to drop 259 points, or 3.0 percent, to 8,311, while the broader Standard & Poor’s 500 index was forecast to fall 32.90 points, or 3.8 percent, to 841.60.
They needn’t be too concerned. Based on Politico’s reporting of remarks made by VP Dick Cheney to a group of Republican Senators on Wednesday, the White House appears ready to ride to the bailout rescue:
Administration officials have been warning for weeks that failure to pass the bill could lead to an even deeper recession.
That was the message Vice President Dick Cheney brought to a closed-door Senate GOP lunch Wednesday, reportedly warning that it’ll be “Herbert Hoover” time if aid to the industry was rejected, according to a senator familiar with the remarks. A Cheney spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the vice president’s remarks.
The White House could still use its authority under the financial bailout law known as the Troubled Assets Relief Program to provide aid to the industry, but the Bush administration has strongly resisted that approach. Meanwhile, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke has warned that he could not be relied on as a backstop if additional loans were needed for the first quarter of next year.
“Herbert Hoover time”? That’s a pretty serious misreading of history. The Great Depression started off as a credit crisis of sorts, with margin calls going unanswered after a stock market crash. However, that just set off a sharp recession. It didn’t turn into a Great Depression, with deflation and capital destruction, until Hoover started massive government intervention in the marketplace, raising taxes and erecting trade barriers. FDR followed that with even higher taxes and massive government jobs programs that stripped the private sector of badly-needed investment capital as well as opportunities to perform those same tasks more efficiently.
If anything, this bailout mania has been much more reminiscent of Hoover than the vote yesterday. And Hoover didn’t have the lessons of history that Cheney and the rest of the bailout disciples have today. We saw what massive government intervention did to markets then, and what it did to credit markets over the last ten years. When will people finally learn that government distortion creates massively bad results?
Without a doubt, the Bush administration will look at the markets and panic — again — into cutting big loans to automakers. If that doesn’t happen by the closing bell today, it will happen before the markets open again on Monday. At this point, though, the Bush administration is history, not the future, and they can answer for their ridiculous economic policies over last two months when the automakers demand even more subsidies to continue doing exactly what led them into near-bankruptcy in March.
Update: Right on time:
The White House said Friday it is willing to consider using some of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund to help the U.S. auto industry. …
The White House said it was evaluating its options in light of the breakdown on Capitol Hill.
“It’s disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight,” Deputy Press Secretary Tony Fratto said in a statement. “We think the legislation we negotiated provided an opportunity to use funds already appropriated for automakers and presented the best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy while ensuring taxpayer funds only go to firms whose stakeholders were prepared to make difficult decisions to become viable.”
By the closing bell today. Bet on it.
Update: Fox Business just issued an on-air report at noon ET saying that Treasury has indeed decided to use TARP funds for the bailout. I told you so.
Blowback
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Good. Allow failure.
carbon_footprint on December 12, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Dubya. The gift that keeps on giving… to the Democrats.
fiatboomer on December 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM
“Compassionate conservatism” has a hefty price tag.
Doughboy on December 12, 2008 at 9:21 AM
I now agree with Democrats when they say he’s the worst ever.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 9:22 AM
What a week for the Dems, bummer.
Firebird on December 12, 2008 at 9:24 AM
When I was taking a college chemistry course many years ago my professor told the class, “you can learn more from your failures than you can from your successes”. Shouldn’t the libtards be the smartest people in the world?
Tommy_G on December 12, 2008 at 9:24 AM
Yep, Perino just said Bush is considering it.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 9:24 AM
No he isn’t…talk about panickers
tomas on December 12, 2008 at 9:25 AM
Just as long as the UAW people can retire with full benefits and pay after ten years on the job, that should be our focus.
Make sure that the sclerotic U.S. car industry can continue to produce marginal products by a heavily overpaid and benefited work force.
Bishop on December 12, 2008 at 9:25 AM
Give us 15B *NOW* or the world’s economies will collapse, the seas will rise up and meteors will rain from the skies!!!
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Haven’t we heard this alarmist declaration before? Hmmm, let me see, yeah, seems like we had to give the banking industry 700B USD in one week or the world would end as we knew it and humans would be rubbing sticks together for fire in days…
How many f***ing idiots does it take to bring down the greatest country in history? 1+100+407=508…
I take that back, at least a few recognize that subsidizing failure gets you more failure.
/movingtoireland
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 9:26 AM
We just gave the big banks $700 billion. Can’t they loan some to the carmakers? Is that some kind of physical impossibility or something?
Akzed on December 12, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Cleanse it with fire.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 9:28 AM
What is wrong with a requirement for a Chapter 11, President Bush promised me some sanity this time.
IlikedAUH2O on December 12, 2008 at 9:28 AM
I hope the Supreme Court mans the **** up and strikes this down. Only CONGRESS can spend money. The President doesn’t have the power to just nationalize ****ing companies at a whim.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM
The banks are insolvent.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM
Flood the WH comment line 202 456-1111 !!!!
I’m SICK of this push to socialism! Sick!! Screaming sick!
It’s pushing from all sides and making smart people go completely SHTOOPID!
katy on December 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM
yeah engineer a ‘crisis’ then grab more power under the guise of ‘saving’ the masses!!
comrade BOOSH paves the way for comrade obama…power to the people…as long as the ‘people’ are those running government.
bailouts are a joke. they don’t fix the problem, just throw money and try to kick the can down the road.
right4life on December 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM
I am pleased that the bailout bill died but it will be revived with the new Congress and it will pass. Too bad.
I actually prefer outright nationalization over the stealth takeover that has been proposed. The proposed bailout is structured to guarantee that the companies will never be able to stand on their own. It will be one bailout after another ad infinitum. At least with federal takeover the public will be able to identify the culprits in future failures. The bailout deal allows the Democrats to claim that they tried but were frustrated by those greedy capitalists who the run the companies.
The Democrats are not bailing out GM and Chrysler; they are bailing out the UAW bosses. Take over the companies and make all the employees federal workers with access to federal healthcare benefits and the Federal Retirement system. No need for a UAW after that.
jerryofva on December 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM
This kind of incompetence is precisely why there is no authorization for any such action in the Constitution.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 9:30 AM
I have suspected for quite some time that nobody gives a flying squirrel’s arse about the Constitution anymore.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 9:31 AM
HAHA yes!!
Theworldisnotenough on December 12, 2008 at 9:34 AM
Is it too much to pray that at some point Americans and the world realize that these idiot politicians are the root of the problem and not the cure?????
Every single friggin economic problem we have right now can be traced to government’s interfering with free markets. And honestly, if Bush/Cheney are going to go ahead and crap on the constitution and basically “nationalize” the Pathetic 3 auto makers, hell, just swear in B Hussein Obama this weekend.
Sugar Land on December 12, 2008 at 9:34 AM
A “loan” he says.
Note to Bush: not everyone is a mouth-breather like you.
Lehosh on December 12, 2008 at 9:34 AM
If he moves quickly, W can snatch a collasal defeat from the jaws of victory. No more RINOs.
james23 on December 12, 2008 at 9:35 AM
It will get done – but the Republicans will be able to get some concessions.
Mr Purple on December 12, 2008 at 9:36 AM
Bring back John Kerry.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 9:37 AM
In the long run it won’t matter the world economy is in collapse. It was caused by the high cost of energy particularly oil. Probably nothing can stop it now. The global economy is a pipedream. Just watch and it turns into every nation for itself.
kanda on December 12, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Are you kidding? They don’t kick the can down the road, they eliminate the road and hold the can close to them. When the government becomes indispensable, the government is in control. Just like the libs want, all of the nation’s monies and power flows through the socialist government and the country goes right into the crapper. The indebtedness means that higher taxes, higher taxes means more money has to go to Washington…when companies have to request a bailout, who is sitting in the catbird seat? And the funniest thing is, that the Congress is getting the economists and business people to cry “the sky is falling!” for them…
I’m so sick right now, even Christmas is unlikely to be able to bring me out of my funk.
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Bush makes me sick…ugh
becki51758 on December 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM
How is the TARP loan legal? That money was appropriated for purpose X, and now Bush thinks he can just spend part of it on Y without congressional approval?
I’ll be glad to see the back of this monkey. Oh crap, here comes another one.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM
My comment on the other thread:
Can Bush Paulson and Co. get any more predictable? They desperately want to kick the can to Obama, preferably deep into Bambi’s term. The bottom will fall out of our economy regardless of what they do now; they’ve assured that with Bailoutpalooza 2008. Now they are fighting to dictate the timing.
flyfisher on December 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM
NO!!!! HELL NO!!!!!!
grapeknutz on December 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
That’s a given. We all know Obama and the Dems will support the UAW with taxpayer money as long as it’s necessary, but at least we can hang that around their necks in 2010 and 2012.
The GOP Senators and House members need to let Bush take the hit for this. All this does is buy the Big Three and the UAW a few more months anyway. They’ll be back at the trough soon enough and then it’ll be the Dems’ problem.
Doughboy on December 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
As I also stated in the other thread… @!#%*&^ Bush. Has he completely forgotten he use to be a Republican or has he forgotten what it means?
ImRight on December 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM
It’ll be interesting to see what this does to Republican voting trends if he does it. dubya’s pushing folks back to the right with his antics. (Looking for a silver lining here)
a capella on December 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
It really doesn’t matter which political party holds power . . . they’re all incompetent, self-serving narcissistic bastards. How much longer can the Republic survive under the weight of these dolts?
rplat on December 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Conservatives need to put together and run some commercials showing the Precedent-Elect gleefully announcing how he’ll bankrupt the coal industry – to explain our position and give people an idea of why these industrial bailouts are doomed to failure (even apart from the Constitutional and plain, old American problems with them). Money is being throw into the fire so that Congress can get around to strangling all of our industries with their environmental madness.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Yeah, great idea, nationalize the companies because that always works out well…/sarc. This country became great because of the free market. Government interference and involvement CAUSES problems, not solves them. Socialism (nationalizing **any** company) is a guaranteed failure. This bailout is indeed subsidizing failure.
Here’s an idea, let the Big 3 fail. Yep, 3M workers will be out of work, unless some enterprise comes along and buys out the company assets and sets up shop. All of the UAW agreements go into the trash, but the government restrictions/regulations and green-libtard bullshi7 will still put any American automaker into the toilet too.
——————————————————
Dear Santa,
For Christmas, I’d like an “UNDO” button for this government. I need to back out government interference and manipulation in order for the free markets to properly work. I’ve been a very good boy this year and will be leaving you cookies and milk by the tree.
See you soon,
Geministorm
——————————————————
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 9:45 AM
This “TARP BACKSTOP” might as well be a butterfly net!
Rovin on December 12, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Maybe this is part of the republican plan. Screw things up really really bad then hand it all to Obama.
That’s simply brilliant.
kanda on December 12, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Ooooh, is that an original? If so, I’m definitely stealing it…great term!
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM
LimeyGreek, this is from the Politico article. If Bush could do it without going to Congress, presumably he only went to Congress for political cover.
Now he has to screw his own party. Not that he hasn’t done that before.
Wethal on December 12, 2008 at 9:49 AM
For crying out loud what happend to by the people for the people. The PEOPLE, represented by our congress, said no to the bailout of these failed companies. And our president, a so called “conservative”, is telling us all to shove it because he knows better. We have lost all power.
And whats worse, when this fails, the communists in control of our government, the ones who pushed for this bailout in the first place, will put 100% of the blame on Bush and the republicans. And the MSM will enforce the lie, and the sheeple will accept the lie as truth and give up even more power to the commies.
Its getting closer and closer everyday to the point when we will have to throw down a second American Revolution.
Spectreman on December 12, 2008 at 9:49 AM
Gemini:
Read more carefully. I was comparing stealth nationalization to outright nationalization. Doing it by stealth allows the Democrats to point to someone else for the inevitable failure of the industry. Outright nationalization places the blame on the Government where it belongs.
jerryofva on December 12, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Oh, you mean the Republican who helped worsen the Depression by big-gov’t interventions?
Followed by the Democrat who prolonged the Depression by multiplying Hoover’s mistakes?
History is repeating itself.
jgapinoy on December 12, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Gun sales have risen since the election. Our militia will be mighty.
If a revolution is going down, I’m on board…
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Some butterfly.
…
Some net!
ElectricPhase on December 12, 2008 at 9:53 AM
.
Being Anti-Tarp is quite popular, but as I recall both Ed and I were among the dolts supporting the Bush/Paulson Tarp plan — so we have to answer for it too.
Mark30339 on December 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Ah yes, industrial nationalization has worked out so well. Let’s review just a few of the sterling successes . . . WWII Germany, Venezuela, the Soviet Union and Cuba. Wake up people, this is the essence of a Marxist state. Has this poor, sick Republic become such a whiny, hedonistic sludge pot that it no longer cares about its freedoms and liberties or those that made them possible?
rplat on December 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Well isn’t it somewhat better that they are going to use funds they already appropriated instead using additional funds?
terryannonline on December 12, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Crap Sandwich gave the Sec. of Treasury this power and every member of Congress who supported IT knew it.
thomasaur on December 12, 2008 at 9:57 AM
I am trying to think of how inexpensive Amerikan cars are going to have to be for us to buy them again. I try not to invest in subsidized items when I have a choice – and there are so many people so angry about this bailout – just curious.
George W. Bush has sealed his legacy with a blank check.
JeffinOrlando on December 12, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Treasury just confirmed it.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Sorry if I misunderstood, it looks like you’re saying that the government should make the UAW members federal employees. Bigger government is a bad idea in my book. And, nationalizing any company (stealth or otherwise) is anti-American. I don’t a flying fart how big the company is, if its business model is a failure, then it should go under (that is what Chapter 11 is for, reorganization so that you can dump a bad business model). The free market works if you let it, businesses will always thrive if there is demand for their products. The government is mandating energy-efficient (green) vehicles in increasing numbers, without regard to whether people will actually buy them or not, and if the government took over the Big 3, then they would fail because they would ignore sales indicators and continue subsidizing the manufacture of crap nobody wants to buy. Look at NPR and PBS for example. In the end, the government would neither recognize their failure(s) nor become accountable for them it would just be a money pit that could never come off the books (“because it would put too many Americans out of work *cry cry sob*”).
No matter how you cut it, nationalizing any company = socialism = failure of America
:( I’m sad.
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 10:02 AM
No bail out till after they file for Bankruptcy. Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many other American car manf’s have bit the dust??????
Airlines
Steel industries
Mom and Pop buisnesses.
International Harvester
Where the hell was Uncle Sam then????????
Rick007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:02 AM
A bail out fot the Auto unions is a bail out for the Democrats!!!!!!!!
Rick007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM
I just heard that Bush will defy the congress and use TARP fund to bail out those irresponsible, incompetent automobile executives and their union thugs. His fate is sealed . . . he will go down in history as an abject loser.
rplat on December 12, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Gettlefield is whining like a baby, right now.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:04 AM
The recession that led to the depression was the result of the Fed severely shrinking the money supply when it should have been make it more available
joey24007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM
Which we are doing the opposite of right now, right?
terryannonline on December 12, 2008 at 10:08 AM
No.
There’s no “better” here because the idea of bailing out a failing business that will continue to fail guarantees that the companies will return again for more funding. If the Congress can’t say “no” now, they’ll never be able to because the conditions that drive why they’ll say “yes” (3M auto workers) will still be there in the future.
People, this is why government shouldn’t interfere in the free market! The free market will eventually kill off old businesses as new businesses come along, otherwise we’d still be buying horse carriages, coal furnaces, Beta tape players. As long as people have a choice of products and money to spend, there will be employment…unless we get robots for all of that. Supply-n-Demand for the win!
Geministorm on December 12, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Yes … Bernanke is not perfect but he is a student of the Great Depression and he has made his decisions accordingly
joey24007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:10 AM
The biggest problem that we all now was going to happen was once one bailout was passed … every industry would want one
and who can blame them? … they see money going to banks and insurance giants … so “what about me?”
slippery slope
joey24007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:12 AM
I agree with you, Ed, and it’s sad and beyond outrageous. This was our one and only chance to force the Big Three into bankruptcy, because the Big Three literally could not survive until 2009. Once they get the bridge loan, they’ll be able to survive until next year, when the Republicans will have so few Senate seats they won’t be able to filibuster a nationalization of the auto industry.
If Bush gives them the loan with TARP funds, his public support will drop from 30% to about 10%. In my opinion, he should no longer consider himself a Republican, and I hope he is never seen in public again after he leaves office. Just go retire to Austin and play golf. This is an extraordinary display of cowardice.
Look at the optics, people. We asked the unions to make basic concessions. Everyone knows that the auto workers unions are bad — even other unionized employees instinctively know that paying $73 per labor hour is an outrageously high price. I live in Northern Ohio, which will be severely affected by a Big Three failure, and most of the blue-collar sorts I speak to ADMIT that the auto workers are outrageously overpaid.
How did the unions respond? “Screw you.” And thus the bill died. The way Bush should handle this is not to blame Senate Republicans, but to blame the damn union. The management of the Big Three agreed to take $1 per year as salary, to sell the jets, and to do some significant restructuring on management side. The unions refused to play ball and tanked the deal. Those are WONDERFUL OPTICS for us and a wonderful way to showcase the Democrats’ refusal and/or inability to deal with the labor unions.
P.S. As of 10:11am, the DOW is only down 114 points. Ooooooooooooh.
Outlander on December 12, 2008 at 10:13 AM
I’ve got your back. The government is completely out of control, and the media has become a Fifth column and can no longer be trusted. Enough is enough.
Sugarbuzz on December 12, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Well y’all, this little taxpayer is going to cut out the middleman, and bailout my ownself.
I’m a housekeeper who makes 15$ an hour, and my taxes are going to bailout dipwads making 75$ an hour?
I’ve lost 60K from my retirement in this mess (so far) and I’ll be good and G*d damned if my tax money is going to bailout anybody but me.
Not this time, skippy.
I’ve already decided I’m NOT paying my taxes next year.
I live in Oklahoma, so I can’t even protest vote the bums out. My guys Dr. Coburn and Jim Inhofe are trying to stave off the inevitable, but are just being run over by the pigs at the trough.
This little taxpayer is disgusted and done with the lot of them.
No taxes from me next year, you little weasels.
Janna on December 12, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Have the oil companies bail them out.
They are most to benefit by selling more gas guzzling SUVs….
(Gas prices are dropping…owing that SUV isn’t as painful to the wallet as it was a few months ago…)
albill on December 12, 2008 at 10:14 AM
Yahoo Finance. A few minutes ago.
Wethal on December 12, 2008 at 10:14 AM
Well the Congress appropriated 700 billion on TARP a few months ago whether we like it and we didn’t hold them accountable in the November elections. So what did you expect? We were going to get more of the same. This auto bailout didn’t pass because the politicos in D.C. figured out that the American people don’t like these bailouts so much. However, I would rather use money that we all know is going to be spent anyway (TARP) instead of using any additional funds.
terryannonline on December 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM
With all due respect, Ed, I think you are misreading economic history, or at least reading it selectively. Hoover did not engage in “massive government intervention”. He raised taxes and tariffs, which were traditional ways to balance the budget in times of economic hardship, and this did cause some problems. However, it was his “hands off” policy of allowing companies to go under (summarized by his Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon as “liquidate, liquidate, liquidate”) that really turned the bursting of the 1929 bubble into the cascading series of business failures that killed many healthy companies and kicked off the Great Depression. Clearly, the lesson that Bernanke and Paulson have taken from their study of that economic crisis is that it was the latter policy that caused the most damage.
HTL on December 12, 2008 at 10:18 AM
I don’t understand why all these banks who are getting billions of dollars don’t make a loan to the Big 3. It’s not like they have to worry about getting repaid, they’ll just get bailed out again under TARP.
cadams on December 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM
They really love that word, “collapse”. These people don’t know what a “collapse” really is. But if they keep doing what they’re doing, we’ll all find out.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM
This is not good.
mindhacker on December 12, 2008 at 10:21 AM
That pretty much sums up this whole mess.
sdd on December 12, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Why hasn’t someone stepped up to the plate and organized a tax revolt yet?
Sugarbuzz on December 12, 2008 at 10:23 AM
Not quite. Failed companies must be gotten rid of, at some point. It was FDR’s extreme government meddling that kept the economy on its knees, looking to go on that way forever, until WWII required organized production towards a narrow goal and total US dominance after the war (us being the only developed country that wasn’t destroyed, essentially plus the great brain drain from Europe to the US because of the war plus our sole ownership of nuclear technology) that allowed us to grow out of all the accumulated debt and get the rest of the world back on its feet, too.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:23 AM
Nonsense. Read Rothbard’s book.
lodge on December 12, 2008 at 10:26 AM
If they do this – give money to the BIG THREE – I swear right here and now that I will NEVER AGAIN buy an American car. The labor unions are really screwing up this country!!
BoomJunkie on December 12, 2008 at 10:30 AM
If the vote is “no” how can the treasury say “yes”? WTH? No means no, not go ask mom.
That union boss goldfinger is such a whiner, Toyota took his lunch money and he has an anonymous email to prove it.
Hey Goldfinger – we are going to go test drive a Nissan today – We would have ordered a new Camaro – even if GM went chapter 11, but not now no way we are supporting you & your ilk, evah.
batterup on December 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM
I like the way Gettlefinger talked about how, if the union workers worked for nothing it wouldn’t save the Big 3. LOL. No sh!t, Sherlock. It’s things like the $100 billion owed by the Big 3 to the trust funds next year that is killing them. It’s the workers that USED TO work there that are the bigger burden.
This is pathetic.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:32 AM
I like your style, ma’am :) My thoughts exactly.
All it takes is a catalyst, perhaps this is it? It would need some careful thought vis-a-vis constitutionality and legal exposure, but I would be happy to go in guns blazing.
It’s been too long since the American people showed its government who the real boss is.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Sugarbuzz,
I organize closets, not tax revolts.
I believe there are a lot of absolutely livid and thouroughly disgusted taxpayers out there.
Everybody says “I’ll never buy an American car, again”
Well, it doesn’t seem to matter, they are getting your money anyway.
CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN.
Janna on December 12, 2008 at 10:34 AM
I’m in… I still own a few guns, and I have military training.
BoomJunkie on December 12, 2008 at 10:35 AM
This was not the purpose for which TARP funds were appropriated and authorized. Bush and the Administrative Branch of government must go back to the congress for authority to reprogram before TARP funds can be used for alternative purposes, lest they violate the Antideficiency Act. I would suspect that any such action would have the same fate as the recently failed “bailout” plan.
Officials of this government are subject to its laws and statutes and can’t simply throw money at whatever they damn well please. This inept government is starting to spend our money like brain-impaired drunks.
rplat on December 12, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Nonsense … read Milton Friedman and Ben Bernanke
joey24007 on December 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Ed, you’re too ironic at time. I’d recommend you read The Return of Depression Economics by Paul Krugman. Your language is eerily similar to the ‘free market’ proponents who believed in letting business fail as the economy started to collapse in the 1930′s, leading to the Great Depression. All those “real” capitalists believed that protecting our system from socialism was the foremost concern, in the process plunging our entire society into a long and dark downturn that almost destroyed the very fabric of democracy and capitalism around the world.
In an economic crisis, you simply can’t allow 3+ million jobs to go away. In times like these, the government is willing to give money away in order to stimulate job creation. The problem is, in a crisis of this magnitude, giving money away fails to stimulate economic growth as both individuals and companies are too risk adverse to expand or start new enterprises. Saving the many good companies that would go bankrupt with the collapse of the Big 3 is kind of a no brainer to the Fed and Treasury. To prevent our economy from falling into the abyss (which remains possible), a small set of loans to protect this many jobs isn’t rocket science. As contrary to common sense as it may sound, printing money and forcing it into the system is the best remedy for fighting a deep recession and possible depression.
Anyway, if you read the book, you might see things differently.
bayam on December 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Impeach Bush! I’m tired of all these socialists masquerading as conservatives. President Bush is conservative only when it suits him, yet the American people have been led to believe conservative economic policies have failed. We all know it’s just the opposite. Keynesianism is the abject failure.
flyfisher on December 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM
All they have to do is declare the Big 3 to be “toxic assets” and they’re good to go!
/half-joking
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Good man. My use of “guns blazing”, in this instance, was metaphorical ;)
A taxpayer revolt would refresh our standing as the supreme power of the land – we are not subjects, or cattle to be herded and milked. Your jobs exist at our pleasure, with our consent, and we’ll pull the rug out from under your corrupt arses.
LimeyGeek on December 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Since we’re doing book recommendations: perhaps Santa should drop a copy of Amity Shlaes’ The Forgottn Man down your chimney.
flyfisher on December 12, 2008 at 10:44 AM
The
ForgottnForgotten ManGeesh!
flyfisher on December 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM
President Bush is conservative only when it suits him, yet the American people have been led to believe conservative economic policies
Your problem is that you’re trying to invent ‘conservative’ economic policies that don’t exist because you don’t understand what’s going on. Yes, there’s a far right fringe element among economists that oppose the kind of action that’s currently being undertaken by the Fed. But economists across the political spectrum generally agree on how to fight a depression.
It was ‘conservative’ policies that caused the Great Depression.
bayam on December 12, 2008 at 10:47 AM
You can find a book that agrees with any point of view. That doesn’t give you an advantage over Ben Bernanke.
bayam on December 12, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Bayam, that is not the question. If GM or Chrysler file a chapter 11, the government is welcome to step in and be a DIP financier. The bnakruptcy lawyers can renegotiate the union deal, get management concessions, and emerge from bankruptcy. That is to say that the filing of a bankruptcy does NOT mean that GM and Chrysler vanish from the face of the Earth, taking 3 million jobs and the nation’s economy down with them.
Further, I’d be a little distrustful of Krugman’s more recent works. What caused the Great Depression was the failure of banks and the stock market crash. The market crash was caused by tariffs and taxes weakening the economy and setting off a chain reaction, due to unregulated derivative products, that crashed the market.
But it’s also very clear that FDR’s disastrous responses to the Great Depression prolonged it by up to seven years.
Outlander on December 12, 2008 at 10:56 AM
The fact that Bernanke presided over this whole debacle, appearently unaware what was happening (judging by his inactions) gives most people an advantage over Bernanke.
progressoverpeace on December 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Well…here we are…63 years years after the end of the Roosevelt Administration where the policy of massive government intervention in the economy originated and the simple American taxpayer is still hostage to FDR and his political descendents. As always the UAW, the Democratic Party and the ill-managed auto-companies are holding the guns to our heads. Pay-up or else…Bad things will happen if you don’t…You’ll either pay now or we’ll take it from you later. If this isn’t the tyranny the original patriots were talking about, I don’t know what is!
sdd on December 12, 2008 at 10:59 AM
When did HotAir turn into the Daily Kos? Seriously?
terryannonline on December 12, 2008 at 10:59 AM
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