Video: British TV shows assisted suicide
posted at 8:13 pm on December 11, 2008 by Allahpundit
I debated whether to post it and came down in favor because (a) I figured some of you would be curious as to how Dignitas operates; (b) it’s big news in Britain, with Gordon Brown having come down on the libertarian side by declaring it “a matter of conscience”; and (c) they don’t show the moment of death, although evidently they did in the full-length documentary. The lingering question has to do with what the anti-euthanasia doctor says about the possibility that Ewert would have had a painless natural death. How fully informed does consent have to be under these circumstances to qualify as “informed”?
Nothing graphic but it’s tough to watch, needless to say, so please observe your official content warning.
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This made me so sad when I heard about it. Today is a day he could have been alive. He could have talked to his children, seen his wife, written a poem or a book. Instead he is dead. What a tragedy.
AbaddonsReign on December 11, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Just the pictures shown on the Daily Mail are tough enough already. I’ll pass it.
newton on December 11, 2008 at 8:15 PM
I’ve never understood why anyone would be against someone having an assist in a terminally ill situation. If intense pain and lack of dignity are in play, I say let these adults make that decision.
BierManVA on December 11, 2008 at 8:22 PM
Observe the rites of our emerging death cult.
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 11, 2008 at 8:22 PM
I thought snuf films were illegal?
.
At least they could have given him some stimulants so I could watch “The Running Man”. No?
.
I’m opposed to euthanasia for a variety of reasons, but filming it has to be a new low.
AnotherOpinion on December 11, 2008 at 8:24 PM
This is horrific. How much farther downward can we devalue a life. We kill the baby in the womb and call it a fetus, as if that makes it less than murder of a child. We justify assisted suicide as mercy killing. In some ountries they even pay to have suicides assisted and if I remember correctly the state of Oregon will supply you with drugs to end your life if they deem your illness incurable. This is the world my son enters into as he now begins his adult life. I hope I have taught him well, that I have made him appreciate every life, from the tiniest in the womb, the autistic, the down syndrome child, all the way to the elderly and infirm. This is siimply sinful and I am not a very religious person but this has to make the lord weep.
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:25 PM
It may be worth noting here that Brown and his wife had to make the decision to take their infant daughter off life support a few years ago (She was their first-born, premature, and suffered a massive brain hemorrhage). They held her while she died. I believe that Fred Thompson went through something similar with his adult daughter.
meltenn on December 11, 2008 at 8:26 PM
I don’t watch real-life murder disguised as mercy, thanks.
I prefer watching pretend murder that isn’t disguised at all. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Mel Gibson — you betcha!
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:27 PM
Lemme get this straight…doing basically that EXACT same thing to a convicted murderer is inhumane?
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:27 PM
I say why do they have to prove they have a terminal illness. If someone wants to off themselves, sounds like a business opportunity to me.
Pre-pay of course.
lorien1973 on December 11, 2008 at 8:27 PM
Noted. Are you equivocating the two scenarios? (removing artificial life support, vs. artificially inducing death)
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:29 PM
I’d agree, in theory.
In practice, there are myriad issues revolving around just how informed his consent was, the factual reality of his medical condition, the certainty of prognosis, the possibility of depression or mental illness, and about 100 other factors that make it far, far more complicated than you suggest.
Sure, if its really that simple – if a guy is in intense pain, has zero chance of recovery, fully understand all medical facts … fine. But nothing in real life is ever that cut and dried.
And even setting all that aside – how exactly do you have a greater “lack of dignity” than what you get by televising this?
Even if I’m theoretically with you on assisted suicide, I don’t understand how anybody supports airing this in between reruns of Matlock and tampon commercials.
“Lack of dignity” indeed.
Professor Blather on December 11, 2008 at 8:29 PM
Zing! Good one. But the looney libs will still find a way, however idiotic it may be, to use this to support their position. That’s a given.
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:30 PM
Liberals will say that it is a matter of choice, you know how they love choice, when it comes to the assisted suicide. The murderer is not freely choosing his own death.
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:33 PM
No. I’m simply pointing out that Brown’s views on it are likely colored by his experience, and may lead him to equivocate the two scenarios. Don’t take that to mean that I do the same.
meltenn on December 11, 2008 at 8:33 PM
A murderer chose his death when he chose to become a murderer.
lorien1973 on December 11, 2008 at 8:34 PM
I don’t consider removing life support from a premature baby who cannot sustain life on its own to be equivalent to assisted suicide. My brother had to remove life support after his son was hit by a taxi cab. After long family discussions it was decided that basically we would be letting nature takes its course. My brother was not authorizing a physician to inject his son with a lethal substance to end his life. So I can sympathize with those who may feel conflicted in this situation, but I simply do not think the two are comparable.
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:38 PM
Lorien 1973
I agree the murder chose death when he killed someone. I’m just saying that is what a liberal will think. I don’t share that thought process. I just understand how liberals think
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:39 PM
The murderer is not freely choosing his own death.
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:33 PM
What lorien1973 said. I am from Texas. If you commit Capital Murder in Texas, and are convicted, you have chosen to die at the hands of the State. End of story and AMF.
Note: AMF = Adios Mother F***er.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:40 PM
I didn’t watch the vid as I have been caretaker in these situations twice, and perhaps a third time in the next few years.
It should be the choice of the poor b-stard in his or her hell on earth rotting in bed every day with no hope. Can you imagine the horror? I’ll guess that some [most?] of those that pooh-pooh this kind of thing haven’t been there day in and day out, watching the pain.
Please keep your irrational religious beliefs derived from ancient texts to yourselves. Calling this murder is not logical and borders on the obnoxious.
We’re for small government, no?
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Fair enough. That’s why I asked.
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Note: AMF = Adios Mother F***er.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:40 PM
Please note that the AMF is not directed at you, but the guy on Death Row.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:41 PM
No chicks in bikinis? no karate? no explosions or gun fights? I’ll pass.
Alden Pyle on December 11, 2008 at 8:49 PM
Please keep your irrational religious beliefs derived from ancient texts to yourselves. Calling this murder is not logical and borders on the obnoxious.
We’re for small government, no?
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Indeed, I am for small government. But, my “irrational religious beliefs derived from ancient texts”, instruct me that life is precious, no matter the circumstances. Just call me wacky, I guess.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:49 PM
This has nothing to do with irrational religious beliefs. I cared for both of my parents through cancer until they died. I watched as they battled this horrific disease, day in and day out. I moved into my parents home two separate times to care for each of them. As my father stated at the time of his illness he had to get over the hump, the dying part and it would all be alright. Well he got over the hump and he died surrounded by loved ones. He got to say all the things he needed to say before leaving this world. My father did not believe in God, but he believed every life had value, under any conditions. To lose hope is to lose yourself. The thing that makes you who you are. My father and mother never lost sight of the value of every breath they took. Just as you, toliver, believe that the right to die should be respected, you should be more respectful of those who are courageous enough to see a life through to its natural end.
church on December 11, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Did they have a website where people could tell him that he was just faking it or to get on with it, already?
James on December 11, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Hmmm. I didn’t think religion was a prerequisite for valuing life. Maybe I was wrong.
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Socialized Medicine needs this. It’ll help relieved the burden…
Tim Burton on December 11, 2008 at 8:53 PM
Oh, you mean the foundation for Western Civilization? The wellspring of individual human rights? The inspiration for the most moral among us? No, it’s good news, & we’ll share it as long as we’re around.
jgapinoy on December 11, 2008 at 8:55 PM
“I’ve had people mention that they want their breasts to look perky when they’re dead”
ninjapirate on December 11, 2008 at 8:55 PM
I can’t help but think this is directed at the elderly so they can reduce the burden on their failing health care system.
liquidflorian on December 11, 2008 at 8:56 PM
@ FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 8:49 PM
I wonder how people with similar views as yours shoehorn their beliefs to justify wars like Iraq and Vietnam and Korea, etc.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 8:57 PM
I don’t mean to be snooty, but you (and a few others) need to learn to use the quoting tool. Here’s how:
1. Copy/paste the quote into the post. If it needs trimming, do it now.
2. Select (highlight) all of the quote.
3. Click the “quote” button, just above the posting window.
4. Press return a couple of times and type your response.
Got it? Okay. How about practicing, by quoting part of this post, and then respond by telling me what an arrogant prick I am?
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Allowing someone to choose how their life ends is absolutely moral. The ONLY reason I can see that you could be against this is if you thought that God should be the one who chooses when to end life. Is it your argument then that a man choosing to end his own life is not part of God’s plan? Or is it that we are so advanced as species that we can break God’s plan?
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:00 PM
This has nothing to do with the Iraq war. Stay on topic or please go talk to the Koz Kidz. Everything does not circle back to Iraq. Seriously, if I walked up and asked you how your days was would you then say, how does that justify the war in Iraq?
church on December 11, 2008 at 9:01 PM
I would tend to agree that terminal adults should have the option to do as they see fit in a circumstance like this… but most of us with some respect for human life see how easily this can snowball.
What if you’re not terminal, but in great pain? Like some form of debilitating arthritis? Again, what if you’re just clinically depressed? Or just kind of depressed? Or if you’re just old and your kids are pressuring you to just move on with things already?
While I think that most of us would agree that an individual in a situation like this has to make some hard, sad choices about their lives, it’s going to lead somewhere.
It always does.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:01 PM
Exactly… and here’s one of the bad places it’ll go.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:03 PM
@ church on December 11, 2008 at 9:01 PM
Its about being consistent. You refuse someone who is dying of a terminal illness the choice to go out painless and on their terms because “life is so precious”. And on the other hand, you support a war that was unnecessary by all accounts, which has led to a lot of death, and a TON of pain. How can you rectify those beliefs with your bible?
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Not logical.
Did your Mother wish to die before the cancer would finally take her? From what you wrote, it doesn’t seem like it. Had she wanted to end it a month or two early, who am I or anyone else to influence public policy so as to force her to suffer?
To lose hope [in this case, the hope of recovery] is not to lose one’s self. That’s a goofy sounding cliché. For a terminally ill person to understand the constant pain, urine, deification, cramping legs and the terror of what may lie beyond this mortal coil is to be realistic.
People should be able to choose for themselves. Anyone ever hear of a little thing called LIBERTY?
So many of my conservative brothers and sisters are so hot to trot on the idea of small government, but only when it suits their particular ideas, which are often not very far-reaching. These ideas are often greatly influenced by ancient religious texts and radio talk show hosts. Liberty realized through the least amount of government possible may be tough to look at sometimes, but we should recognize that it the best -and yes, moral- way to be governed.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 9:04 PM
“Our state is puttin’ in an express lane.”
Harpoon on December 11, 2008 at 9:04 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 8:57PM
I haven’t tried to justify any war. I am fairly certain that the subject here is assisted suicide. BTW, shoehorn a very large object into your ear. Have a nice day.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 9:07 PM
Maybe I’m missing something here, but anyone anywhere anytime can ingest a fatal drug cocktail. Many of the prescription meds that people are prescribed in great quantities would do the trick. Without commenting on the right or wrong of this, why would anyone choose to travel to a foreign country, to a strange place and obtain the assistance of people who have chosen to make this a cause? I really don’t understand it.
califcon on December 11, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Can’t the loss of life “snowball” w/in the arena of national security? Can’t the use of military force “snowball”? Let’s not use military force ever then, lest we let that camel stick his nose under the tent.
No my friends, each situation should be looked upon by it’s own facts.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 9:08 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:01 PM
I dont see any snowballing. A person who is old and not sick cannot be killed for the heck of it. A person with arthritis has other options to lessen their pain or help their condition. A depressed person has other medicines they can take. A person with inoperable brain cancer has no other options. So a doctor would offer them the ability to end their life painlessly, on their own terms, with the ability to say goodbye to all loved ones and tie up all loose ends. A doctor wouldn’t offer death as an option instead of medicine for a condition that can be treated. I would much rather have the ability to go out humanely than having to resort to some sick method of killing myself which would scar the people who found me for life.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Got to make the coroner get a chubby while he soups you up for the dirt nap.
Alden Pyle on December 11, 2008 at 9:09 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Please don’t discount the quality of life difference that has occured in Iraq for the citizens there.
Was there a lot of pain for Saddam’s goons squads? Sure. No tears from me.
I guess you’d be able to sleep better knowing the Iraqi people were being ruled over and brutalized by a thug, but I guess we’re different that way.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:09 PM
I don’t mean to be snooty, but you (and a few others) need to learn to use the quoting tool. Here’s how:
1. Copy/paste the quote into the post. If it needs trimming, do it now.
2. Select (highlight) all of the quote.
3. Click the “quote” button, just above the posting window.
4. Press return a couple of times and type your response.
Got it? Okay. How about practicing, by quoting part of this post, and then respond by telling me what an arrogant prick I am?
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:59 PM
No, I don’t got it. Got it? And you are not an arrogant prick. You are, however, a douchebag of the highest order.
FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 9:10 PM
@ FishFearMe on December 11, 2008 at 9:07 PM
I never said you did, I said many people arguing against this would similarly argue . . . .
And I don’t want to shove a large object into my ear, that might kill me. And if I kill myself, the imaginary superhero in the sky will cry and I won’t get into heaven.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:10 PM
muyoso
First, I’m not a religious person so I don’t have to justify any kind of belief system as you mentioned in your original post and I don’t deny anyone anything. People are free to make their own choices, I don’thave to agree with them. Second I don’t remember posting that I support any war, that is an assumption on your part. My point is you are doing this illogical thing all liberals do where anything anyone says somehow can be tracked back to the Iraq war. Now that is not consistent. Stay on topic.
church on December 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
I don’t mean to be snooty, but you (and a few others) need to learn to use the quoting tool. Here’s how:
Got it? Okay. How about practicing, by quoting part of this post, and then respond by telling me what an arrogant prick I am?
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:59 PM
I don’t mean to be a snooty prick but perhaps you need to learn how to read a post without having it in italics or blocked.
Here’s how:
1. Learn to look for the name of the original poster under a given sentence or paragraph.
2. Read it without hyperventilating over the fact that said sentence or paragraph isn’t italicized or blocked.
3. Click the “I’m an arrogant prick” button (found only on your screen)
4. Realize that you have just as many flaws as anyone else.
Got it? Ok. Now STFU and get over yourself.
Bishop on December 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:08 PM
What if they don’t want to?
Would you deny them the choice of going out on their own terms, or are you going to be the one to set the standards as to who has a reasonable right to die?
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
Suicide was decriminalised in Britain in the 1960s. The issue here is assisted suicide. It has greater moral complications than suicide because it involve a second party.
Also to the person upthread who said we’re supposed to be for small government, the public broadcasting of this death and the Prime Minister’s comments are likely to lead to a greater push for government-assisted suicide i.e. an expansion of the NHS.
aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:12 PM
In reality, I’m a fan of relatively small, efficient government – not the smallest possible – but I think you’re right on about the part in bold.
Big S on December 11, 2008 at 9:12 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:09 PM
And to the tens of thousands (a ridiculously conservative estimate)of Iraqis who died? How is it ok for us to choose to end their lives, but not ok for someone to choose to end their own? Do you not see the hypocrisy in your position? How is the quality of life better for THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of troops and their families who have come home without legs, arms, faces, hearing, eyesight, etc? Quality of life improved?
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Some people just want help, because they either don’t have the means [they can't get out of bed] or they feel they will botch it.
Televising an assisted suicide is a whole other ball of wax. I’m not sure what the logic is there.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 9:15 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
I am not setting any standards. That is for the doctors ethics boards to do. Your slippery slope argument is comical though. What if they don’t want medicine? Then the doctor tells them to leave and he goes on with their next appointment. From that point on, its just like today. If they choose to end their life with a gun, its their choice.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:17 PM
You can see plainly that I’m a libertarian Republican. Too bad the libertarians are so goofy when it comes to national security and a couple of other important things.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 9:17 PM
@church:
The two aren’t even remotely comparable.
DaveS on December 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM
@ church on December 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
You do know I mentioned several wars right? Second, I am not liberal. Third, its a confusion on my part on how christians, whom are the main opposition to assisted suicide, can concurrently support a war, and how they justify that with their belief system. That is all.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:19 PM
Muyoso
What the hell are you going to do when your boy Obama stays in Iraq and widens the war in Afghanistan into Pakistan? Are you going to be this outraged? Are you going to stand up and speak truth to power to The One? Because believe me, those troops are staying put. Obama got an eye opener when he got his first White House briefing and you don’t hear him talking so boldly about drawing those troops down anymore. I hope to read you here in six month calling for the impeachment of Obama. Because if you don’t you are just another liberla infected with Bush Derangement Syndrom. You stay consistent now, you hear?
church on December 11, 2008 at 9:20 PM
I understand why someone would want to end their life in the throes of a terminal illness.
But its short step from allowing government-assisted suicide to the government encouraging it to free up resources and putting pressure on patients and their families.
It would lead to government having a life-and-death power over innocents [non-criminals] that they (especially the British Labour Government) could then abuse for their own purposes.
aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:20 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Again, I’m not sure how many tears I’ll shed for Saddam’s goons, many of whom took liberties on the civilians, who suffered with him being kicked out of power.
I’ll also not cry for the terrorists flowing in from other nations and losing limbs in the subsequent fighting, either.
But that’s a different topic, for a different thread, I’d think.
You’re mistaken if you think I necessarily oppose this. I do think we need to take a good, long look at where it will end up, and do what we can to discourage it as opposed to glorifying it.
We don’t want to live in a nation where the elderly are being pressured by their children–or taxpayers–to end their lives prematurely because they’re a drain on limited resources.
I’m sure you’ll scoff at that, but if that’s where we end up, we’ll know how it started.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:23 PM
Splashman on December 11, 2008 at 8:50 PM
No, but it is pretty much a prerequisite for supporting the idea that we should legislatively force the consequences of that value on everyone.
DaveS on December 11, 2008 at 9:25 PM
I don’t like the idea of government assisted suicide, but if the person wants to end their own life through some form of assistance, no problemo.
If the government is denying a person that right, they are getting involved just as much as if they assisted. Stay out of it and let the individual decide.
Bishop on December 11, 2008 at 9:27 PM
@ church on December 11, 2008 at 9:20 PM
My boy Obama? I don’t know if that is a racial slur against Obama or you assuming that I like him at all? Actually no, as is documented in the archives of Hotair, I voted reluctantly as hell for McCain and his comical sidekick.
You are not understanding that I am not a liberal. I am a fairly conservative libertarian. VERY conservative on fiscal policy, moderately liberal on social issues.
Now you arguing that Iraq was off topic is even more comical, where the hell did Obama come from? Might want to whip out the GPS to navigate back on topic.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:27 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:23 PM
I make no assumptions about your personal beliefs. I am just arguing against anyone who opposes this, unless they have a compelling reason for opposing it, which I have yet to hear. I too don’t want the elderly pressured to kill themselves, unless of course they are made into delicious Soylent green, but that is another topic entirely.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:29 PM
muyoso, I think most people can draw a clear distinction between some personal situation that might involve taking of a life–be it suicide, murder, death penalty, etc.–and a bigger situation that might require war… sometimes values seemingly come into conflict, and it’s a matter of which course serves the greater good.
Certainly, nobody would support just arbitrarily bombing countries with no cause whatsoever.
DaveS on December 11, 2008 at 9:29 PM
There was some other guy on here before the election saying that Palin was popular among libertarians. Why didn’t you like her?
aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:30 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:17 PM
All right.
But I can tell you’re bright enough to visualize situations down the road in which those who are not terminal but in significant pain will want the same exit plan. And I’m sure you can also visualize doctors insisting this is their right, as it may be.
If it stops with unquestionably terminal patients who have no other options, there are few who are likely to condemn this action. Not none, but few.
But can you at least be honest enough to admit you can see a future in which clinically depressed patients seek to end their lives and are given doctor’s assistance because it’s the moral thing to end their suffering?
I know I can. I don’t know if we’ll ever get there, but it’s our job now to make sure that we don’t.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:32 PM
@ DaveS on December 11, 2008 at 9:29 PM
No my problem is at the BASE of the assisted suicide issue for many Christians I believe, is the fact that it is MAN choosing to end his own life, and not leaving it up to God. All I am doing is asking why that same principle doesn’t apply to something like a war for them. Maybe I am way off base.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:32 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:29 PM
LOL!
Good call!
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:33 PM
@ aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Off topic, but I didnt think she was qualified, at all. I liked her positions, even on the ones I disagreed with her on, but she was no where near qualified enough to me. And the more I saw of her, the less qualified I thought she was. It pinnacled after a nearly 7 minute prank call on her where canadians with terrible french accents were making helicopter hunting jokes, and she had no clue until they did the big reveal. Add that to the bevy of other things, and yea, NOT impressed.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Muyoso
Yeah, you voted for Obama and no “boy” has no relation to his race. If I believed you voted for McCain, I would say your boy McCain. It is so tiring to have to talk to people who view everything thru a racially tinged lense. If you are so opposed to the war in Iraq and all the suffering of the Iraqi people how could you possibly vote for a man you know for a fact would continue the conflict inflicting more pain on the people you are so concerned about? That would not be a logical vote. I would not think such a humanitarian as yourself would be able to justify casting that vote against your belief system.
church on December 11, 2008 at 9:35 PM
War is an inevitable part of human existence. Pre-emptive war is dicier. Pope JPII felt the Iraq War did not meet the criteria of the Just War theory.
aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:38 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:32 PM
Well, in situations like that, I support a CRAAAAAAAZY thing called medical marijuana, which somehow is also deemed illegal by our government. Somehow the most commonly used drug on the planet, which we have used as humans for over 5k years is on the same level as heroin under federal law. But no, I don’t see the slippery slope happening. Its a hell of a leap from terminally ill to having very intense pain. Now that said, personally, I see nothing wrong with someone who for example has 97 percent of their body burned who is undergoing ridiculous pain to have a similar option, even though he MIGHT be able to survive.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:40 PM
@ aengus on December 11, 2008 at 9:38 PM
I agree war is inevitable. So is death.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:40 PM
As a quasi-libertarian kinda guy, I only wish government to butt out of personal decisions like these, not to assist.
———–
Anybody remember Tom Delay during the Terri Schiavo affair? [I know it's not the same topic.] Remember how he wanted to pass this law and that law? Remember how it came out that his family [Tom included] decided to “pull the plug” on a relative?
I agreed with much of Delay’s stances BTW.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Free Will…
Kaptain Amerika on December 11, 2008 at 9:48 PM
@ church on December 11, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Haha, I was being an ass. Frankly I don’t care what you say about race, nothing offends me. It was a cheap ploy to irritate you, and it worked, and I am happy. Wins around for everyone.
And I am not concerned about Iraqis at all. They can all die in chemical fires for all I care. Somehow you cannot understand that I was posing a hypothetical using arguments that I don’t agree with personally. You see, I was asking from a Christian perspective, how someone can support assisted suicide on the basis of letting God choose the time a person dies, and also support a war. I AM against the Iraq war. Think it was a mistake to go in. Think we fought the war terribly. We abandoned the overwhelming force doctrine. We wasted epic amounts of money, including no bid contracts which are so unethical its not even funny. We let the media in to cover the war, big mistake. All around, total FUBAR. I come from the position that if you are gonna fight a war, you fight to win with absolutely no constraints. That said, I don’t respect any country or people who cannot stand up to their own government, or even attempt to. America wouldn’t exist if we were as weak as the Iraqis.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:48 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:32 PM
I can’t speak for all Christians, obviously, but I’ll explain my feelings on the subject. And I’ll preface this by saying I’m not as hard-line religious as some you may find, so take it for what it’s worth.
I believe innocent human life is something to cherish, and we need to do everything we can as a society to uphold its importance. I don’t believe we benefit by living in a society where life is cheap and disposable as everything else is around us.
While I hope to never be in the position this man was in, I may very well have to face this same choice some day. And I may end up making the decision he did. I don’t know.
What I do believe is, as a whole, we need to encourage people to work through the struggles in their lives as opposed to seeing only one way out, as many non-assisted suicides do every day, and I’m very much opposed to anything that would send the message that ending your misery just may be worth it.
In some few cases, like this poor fellow, that may indeed be the case, but the vast majority of us will work through what we may believe at the time to be insurmountable, whether that is sickness, or depression, or personal struggles.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:48 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:48 PM
And you won’t find anyone who disagrees with that. Even Dr. Kevorkian would agree with that. I don’t believe we live in a society where life is cheap or disposable. Frankly I don’t believe there is such a society. I think we do encourage people to work through their struggles for the most part, and I don’t see that changing with assisted suicide. There isn’t going to be a wild west style change in the medical field where people are choosing death for a stubbed toe. That just won’t happen.
Your last sentence will be true even after we allow assisted suicides. Its not going to change.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:54 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:40 PM
Well, that’s kind of my point. You may view it as a leap, but I guarantee you there are many that don’t. I don’t have the links to articles at my fingertips, but in some European countries (Netherlands, maybe? Everything crazy happens there!) there’s a push for broader and broader assisted suicide laws. And everything started quite rationally.
My main point is that while I’m sure most of us feel deep sympathy for this man, we don’t want to live in a world where this becomes more and more the norm. A lot of people work through sickness, and pain and suffering, even when they don’t think they can at the moment it’s happening.
It hurts many of us to see this as a television event. It seems perverse to popularize this in the way that it is. We don’t want it to become, “Oh, you’re sick? Let’s take care of that.”
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Good for him! He wanted to die and he died in the manner he wanted to. It was his decision and his alone. What’s the problem?
dk on December 11, 2008 at 10:00 PM
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Perhaps this is where our differences are.
I’m glad you have faith.
I’m not so sure I do.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Europeans and liberals are incredible creatures.
Might have been mentioned above, already, but however one feels about this topic, one can’t but wonder why the same Europeans are vehemently against the death penalty.
Don’t desecrate any foreign flag in Ameirca, but you can do whatever you wish with the American one, any place in the world…just trying to find logic and reason, that’s all.
Entelechy on December 11, 2008 at 10:07 PM
@ 12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 9:59 PM
And it will never become that. I am sure something like assisted suicide will have to go through ethics boards, lawyers and all the usual crap you have to go through in America. With how prevalent lawsuits are in this country, you can be sure that assisted suicide will require a LOT of paperwork.
muyoso on December 11, 2008 at 10:07 PM
In your entire statement you mention nothing about the choice made by the individual here. In fact, you go so far as to refer to this as a killing?
Who was the victim in this murder?
Whose rights were violated by this choice?
I can understand you destesting his choice, but it is his choice
paulsur on December 11, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Just as an example,
I’ll have to hunt a link down, but there was a Dr. Chabot who was convicted, but not sentenced, of an assisted suicide in the Netherlands of a individual who was diagnosed as having a severe depressive disorder.
There was another, again in the Netherlands, of a woman with MS who was helped to end her life.
I’ll have to hunt down the links.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 10:10 PM
I suspect that a serious national debate on euthanasia would reflect the same conflicted viewpoints many Americans have about abortion. I also believe our experience with abortion is instructive when considering the casualness with which many people consider abortion. When it was legalized abortion wasn’t meant to be an easy way to correct an oversight to properly use contraception.
What was once supposed to be rare and infrequent has evolved into a procedure as common as Lasik – and cheaper.
That’s why I fear any form or Physician Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia.
I become very, VERY nervous when I contemplate the government, state or federal, getting involved with the process of dying.
The ultimate, (to me) Nanny state power is euthanasia.
Euthanasia, was legalized in Belgium in 2002, although it had been accepted in practice since at least the early 90’s.
“A number of quantitative studies of the rate and major characteristics of these practices have been conducted in 1990, 1995 and 2001. These have demonstrated a disturbingly high incidence of euthanasia being carried out without the patient’s explicit request and an equally disturbing failure by medical professionals to report euthanasia cases to the proper regulatory authority.”(Emphasis added)
As originally contemplated, doctor assisted suicide was supposed to be a rare event to ease the unrelenting pain and suffering of a person who was not going to get better; what its become is a way to knock off granny before she becomes a financial burden on the family or to allow the kids to get their hands on granny’s estate before illness eats up the inheritance.
And, more and more, it appears granny’s not being consulted on the subject.
As I said in the beginning, it a conflicted and conflicting subject clouded by more emotion than rational discussion, but as for me, today, I’d rather take my chances with death without the state jiggering the odds; it’s a crooked deck anyway and we’re all going to lose. How long you make your stake last is all that matters
There will come a situation where a patient clearly wants to end his/her life but is physically incapable of doing so, what then? If the physician won’t help how about a family member? Friend? Who?
A Texas physician, who was asked for his opinion about PAS replied “…the real question we must ask ourselves as patient advocates is: What could be more compassionate than allowing a competent terminally ill patient the right to die on their own terms?”
My objection is the logical extension of that question: What could be more compassionate than allowing an incompetent/unconscious/comatose/unresponsive/etc terminally ill patient the right to die on what should be their own terms if they were competent to make that decision?
My fears aren’t theoretical and I don’t think I’m over reacting.
A survey published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 2001; (344: 605-607) found that, with the increasing acceptance of PAS, the percentage of patients who died through PAS because they felt a burden to others (not necessarily the only reason, however) increased from 12% in 1998 to 63% in 2000.
How did that presumption of “burden” come about? It didn’t happen in a vacuum.
And that’s just PAS, what will be the sentiment with legalized euthanasia?
Based on my years of experience, that when killing becomes a solution to a problem then that’s a problem.
We – well, many of us- are conflicted on this subject which is why it remains a hot button topic; its controversial.
Would I like to be able to pull the pin when I’m in pain and terminal? Probably, I don’t know, I’ll call you and let you know.
But I damn well know I don’t want my kids to have a hold of the same pin (sorry Jimmy and Scotty, no offense)
E9RET on December 11, 2008 at 10:11 PM
aengus, thanks for leading me to this:
La liberté n’a pas de prix – Freedom is priceless.
Entelechy on December 11, 2008 at 10:13 PM
You mean freedom to choose one’s own end?
The right to die is no less of a human right than the right to live.
paulsur on December 11, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Oh for %&#@s sake!
Some people don’t want to “work through” daily intense pain, constant pooping and peeing themselves, and the sheer hell of being trapped in a smelly bed in a f’d up wing of a f’d up health care facility ’til imminent or drawn out death.
Why don’t you “work through it” if it happens to you, and let other people choose for themselves.
You cats are near-authoritarians that pose as small government types. What BS.
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Here’s a quick link for the doctor I mentioned above.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/309/6953/492
The patient was apparently unlikely to respond to antidepressants, so this made him a viable candidate for assisted suicide.
There are, unfortunately, plenty more out there. It’s the first one that popped into my mind, though.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 10:16 PM
toliver on December 11, 2008 at 10:15 PM
#1. You’re a little too hostile.
#2. Perhaps you haven’t been following the discussion. Some of us cats are worried that these sort of things don’t stop where we might like them to.
Again, toliver, how do you feel about an individual diagnosed as depressed, and unlikely to receive relief through medication, chosing this as well?
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 10:20 PM
paulsur on December 11, 2008 at 10:14 PM
I mean a society in which it is seen as preferable to take one’s own life instead of dealing with the things people deal with every day. Like hurt and pain, like growing old, like personal struggles, like sickness.
I’m hoping you don’t want to have your children or grandchildren grow up in a world in which it is a viable option to end one’s life during a time of depression, or sickness.
Again, many of us are worried that this won’t be confined to those who are terminally ill.
12thMonkey on December 11, 2008 at 10:25 PM
1. Would they be exercising their choice?
2. Would it alleviate their suffering?
I dont think he is hostile at all. Just exercising his/her right to debate the point. For you to inject some kind of negative emotion into his/her post on his/her behalf is awful arrogant of you.
paulsur on December 11, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Would you prefer they put a bullet through their brain? Or perhaps they hang themselves? It that acceptable for you? What is the problem you have if someone of legal age, deemed to be of sound mind and wishes to end his or her life if a safe and peaceful manner? Can you answer without invoking your religious views?
dk on December 11, 2008 at 10:26 PM
This was so stupid and sickening.
If you want to go kill yourself just go do it somewhere. Spare us the TV docudrama on how brave and courageous you are for swallowing some poison and dying. I am so sick of this crap.
OK, so you were suffering,, get in line. The world is full of suffering people. So you killed yourself. Fine. Now go away! You were not brave and courageous,, you just quit and gave up. We don’t need to build a monument for you or put a medal on your corpse because you ended your own life!
Am I heartless??? Whatever. There are people out there now struggling with disease and all kinds of problems just as bad or worse,, and many of us have met them,,know them or have been them, and they are fighting to save their lives. They are fighting to make it just one more day!!! And these idiots are throwing their lives away and think they are wonderful,, so wonderful for doing so that they think we should all be treated to their death on TV the world over!!! Like there isn’t enough death and dying in the world!!
News flash!! There is nothing to dying!!
Anyone can do it!!
Living is the struggle!! OK?? Living and overcoming and persevering ,,, that is the real struggle!!!
JellyToast on December 11, 2008 at 10:29 PM
I will raise my children to value life in all of its forms and struggles. But I want my children to grow up in a world where they have the freedom to effect their own way all the way to their end in life, whatevers choice that may be. As long as their choices do not deny or burden others they will have lived as I have taught them, and I can not expect more.
paulsur on December 11, 2008 at 10:30 PM
It’s his life. Is he to be free or to be a slave to the beliefs of others? I don’t think this is anyone’s business but his and his family’s.
After watching a Grandmother suffer 8 years in a nursing home, bed sores, amputations, comostose for the last 5 years, my Grandparents savings sucked dry by the medical care that was keeping her “alive”.
We went that way because we didn’t know what she would want. My Grandfather now has a living will, so does my mother, so do I. And they all say the same thing, we want to die with dignity and not give our life savings to the medical profession for a life spent on life support and in a bed you will die in that you are only removed from to change the sheets and to be taken to the funeral home.
Hog Wild on December 11, 2008 at 10:30 PM
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