The point is, you guys have certain fundamental differences in your basic assumptions, and are unlikely to agree, for example, on prayer to the saints. I urge you to embrace one another as brothers in Christ, however, both acknowledging the first things of our faith: Christ born of a virgin, sinless, died for forgiveness of our sins, and resurrected in power over the grave. The rest is important, and worth prayerful searching and even contention in an appropriate context; but I’m not sure it is so important that we should do battle with one another before the world.

RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 4:16 PM

You’re exactly right, RegularJoe. Well, said. I’m okay on my side of things. No worries here. I love Olaf. Him, and I, we have gone into battle against the scoffers many times. He is my brother. I can’t wait to be in heaven with him both of us on our hands and knees worshipping Almighty God. I’ve pretty much made my point on the saints issue. He’ll think about it. The Holy Spirit will guide Him, as it will guide me. Thanks again, for your loving comments Joe, may the Lord bless us in our searching and our questions.

I agree that there is no mediator but Christ.

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM

As you should. It is VITAL we stress that only ONE who was both God and man, the man Christ Jesus, can mediate between men and our Creator God. He is the only way to God (”I am the way, the truth…” John 14:6) and our only true Advocate with the Father: “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2

It is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, that we worship.

“And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory” (Isaiah 6:3). 1 God. 3 Persons. Describing Himself.

When we ask a Saint to pray for us, they pray to Christ for us.

Ah, see, this is where you lose me. The Bible never infers that any saints, living or dead, sympathize with us more than God does, nor does it even once mention the possibilty of anyone praying to or through them. It does, however, say of Christ, “For we have not an high priest (our high priest is Christ) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities (Christ understands our weaknesses); but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace (to Jesus Christ), that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:15-16

Again Christ is the mediator.

You can’t have it both ways, my friend. You can’t say that we ask the saints to pray for us, and they pray to Christ for us, and then say that Christ is the only mediator between us and God the Father. That doesn’t make sense. There is a third party involved. As I pointed out, 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is very specific: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all.” Why would God tell us that Jesus Christ is the only mediator if it is a lie, and there are really many mediators, and yes, praying to Mary and the saints acts as a link between us and the Father. Can you think of a good reason not to pray to Him in the first place?

Did not Christ also teach us to pray to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes He did.

That’s because all three are equal. The Bible teaches that we can pray to one or all three, because all three are One. But, that doesn’t mean we are to pray to Mary and various saints such as Peter. Such prayers are not scriptural and are, in fact, an insult to our heavenly Father and against His expressed will.

They (saints) don’t have to be omniscient. God directs our prayers of intercession for them, to them. And their prayers for us are the incence before Christ.

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where it says that God the Father hears our prayers and tells the saints what it is the people ask for so they can pray to Jesus who in turn prays to God the Father who answers the prayer. I love you man, but, uh, that is stretching it a bit. Like I said, praying to saints, uh, the saints would have to be omniscient (infinitely wise) and omnipresent (present everywhere at once) so that they can understand thousands of prayers from all over the world in many different languages, all at the same time. — even if God the Father (as you suggest) hears our prayers and redirects them to the saints. Only God can be in all places at once to hear the thousands of prayers coming from all around the world at the same time.

I don’t know about you, but I am a wicked and vile sinner far from pure.

Yes, we are wicked vile sinners. Amen. Amen. Amen!

I need all the saints praying for me that I can get.

I think you’re making a big mistake. God loves us. He wants to be our friend and our Father. He asks us to pray directly to Him, to have communion with Him, to honour Him and praise Him. He feels left out when we venerate someone or something else. The Bible tells us that He is jealous of our love, and helps us understand this by giving us the illustration of a husband who doesn’t want his wife to go out with other men. What are we saying to God when we turn our backs on Him and pray to a saint? It is a great offense to infer that He is not as kind, considerate, and compassionate as the saints are. I hope you take another look at this my friend. A study of the prayers in the Bible will show you that all were addressed to God the Father, and none to saints who had died. My prayers are for you — and I’ll be praying to my Heavenly Father, in Jesus’ precious name, amen.

I urge you to embrace one another as brothers in Christ, however, both acknowledging the first things of our faith: Christ born of a virgin, sinless, died for forgiveness of our sins, and resurrected in power over the grave

I do. I truly admire Apacalyps. His devotion is moving.
There are often many cases of Protestant Laity or Clergy who are more devoted than various Orthodox clergy…the point is that you never know someone’s salvation purely because of their denomination. I was a fundamentalist before and I believe that helped me in a a way to find the True Church that Christ established.

It is not the Orthodox position to judge whether other Christians who profess Christ and believe in the Holy Trinity are saved or not. We assume that they are and consider other Trinitarian Churches, Ecclesial communities I believe.

apacalyps on December 10, 2008 at 2:20 PM
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM

This was inevitable. You two are perfect for each other.

I’m leaving. Have fun.

Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Smart girl.

I used to have a very close friend who was E. Orthodox (no falling out, I just moved away), and we spent many hours talking, trying to find common ground. The problem is that Protestants believe in “Sola Scriptura” – the scriptures alone, or at least “Prima Scriptura” – the scriptures first. The Orthodox Church gives equal weight to the traditions of their Church (a confidence of which I was both envious and suspicious, in both cases because of the failings of tradition in the western Church heritage). They also are far more comfortable with the concept of “mystery” — I don’t want to mis-characterize this, but as I understood it the idea was the acceptance that certain things simply were so, and we had no standing to question them. We in the western tradition have some of this, but we are far more interested in systematic theology and epistemology than the Orthodox. Not that that’s a bad thing.

The point is, you guys have certain fundamental differences in your basic assumptions, and are unlikely to agree, for example, on prayer to the saints. I urge you to embrace one another as brothers in Christ, however, both acknowledging the first things of our faith: Christ born of a virgin, sinless, died for forgiveness of our sins, and resurrected in power over the grave. The rest is important, and worth prayerful searching and even contention in an appropriate context; but I’m not sure it is so important that we should do battle with one another before the world.

I admit to over-generalizing; but at the same time, I’ll say that IN GENERAL, in posts such as these, even our correction should be with gentleness:

RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 2:01 PM

Sounds fair enough. If your interested in checking out a cool site, check out Godsaidmansaid.com. Its loaded with good faith-building subjects and backed with diligent research. God bless RJ.

apacalyps on December 10, 2008 at 2:20 PM
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM

This was inevitable. You two are perfect for each other.

I’m leaving. Have fun.

It’s not alright to pray to the saints themselves, that they may serve as mediators between us and God, Olaf.

Christ is the only mediator between us and God.
No man can know the essence of God, but we know Him through Christ. I agree that there is no mediator but Christ.

In a way saints are dead to themselves. Like St Paul said “My life is hid in Christ”. It is Christ who lives within them that we venerate(which is different than worship). It is God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit that we worship.

When we ask a Saint to pray for us,they pray to Christ for us. Again Christ is the mediator.

Is your Pastor or Mother the mediator between you and God if you ask her to pray for you? Of course not.

This process is the image of the Liturgy taking place in heaven, the incence is the prayers of the saints before Christ.

The Bible consistently teaches that prayer should be directed to God the Father.

Did Christ condemn the Apostle Peter who when drowning said “Lord save me” to Christ?

Of course not.

Did not Christ also teach us to pray to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Yes He did.

And prayers of intercession to the Saints is prayer to Christ.

Are the saints omniscient and omnipresent, so that they can understand thousands of prayers from all over the world in many different languages, all at the same time?

They don’t have to be omniscient. God directs our prayers of intercession for them, to them. And their prayers for us are the incence before Christ.

I don’t know about you, but I am a wicked and vile sinner far from pure. I need all the saints praying for me that I can get.

One doesn’t have to have saints praying for them, but it is absolutely Biblical and is a great benefit.

Their unbiblical obsession and worship of Mary does cause some serious problems – idolatry being one of them

apacalyps on December 9, 2008 at 11:47 PM

It’s not unBiblical (but then again the Roman Catholic view of the Virgin Mary is wrong and quite a bit different than the Orthodox view)….

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:50 AM

Sorry, brother, but I can’t agree with you on this one. Praying to Mary is quite unbiblical. The Bible does not teach this. First allow me to tell you that I won’t fight a brother in Christ. Nope. Won’t do it. However, I always encourage people to question what you’re being taught, question what I say, question the Bible. It’ll stand up to scrutiny. “Come now, and let us reason together,” the Lord says (Isaiah 1:18). Nothing wrong with questioning the Bible. So if you want my Christian brother, let’s reason together and see if the Bible teaches we should pray to Mary and the saints. Okay, let’s test it out. Check it out. See if those things are so as per God’s command that we should reason with each other.

The Archangel called her “blessed amongst all women”, and the Holy Spirit (prophecying through St. Elizabeth) prophecied that ALL generations would call her blessed.

Yes, Mary was a wonderful lady, chosen by God to be the earthly mother of Jesus Christ. Moreover, she was a virgin at His birth. I hope and pray I will meet her on Resurrection Day, when the saints come forth from the grave. On the other hand, we do not pray to Mary nor make images of her because the Bible teaches: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” (Luke 4:8). The Bible consistently teaches that prayer should be directed to God the Father. When the disciples asked Jesus, “Lord, teach us to pray,” the first thing He said was, “When ye pray, say, Our Father…” and then went on to teach the Lord’s prayer. Jesus once asked another group of people, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Since Jesus asks us to pray to the Father, let’s do it!

When one looks at an icon of Christ and prays, your prayers aren’t to the icon but are passed through to Christ.

It’s not alright to pray to the saints themselves, that they may serve as mediators between us and God, Olaf. Jesus said, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). And 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is even more specific: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all.” Christ is our mediator, because it is He who brings us into contact with God. He paid all that God required for our sins, so that we sinners may pray directly, “Our Father…”. Why would God tell us that Jesus Christ is the only mediator if it is a lie, and there are really many mediators?

In a similar way, when one prays to a saint to ask them to pray to Christ for you, it is God who passes the prayer through to them, and the prayer from the saint holds more sway or is heard better in a sense.

Are the saints omniscient and omnipresent, so that they can understand thousands of prayers from all over the world in many different languages, all at the same time?

No, they didn’t. They had no idea what they were saying to Jesus.

Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:57 PM

How do you know that? The Bible doesn’t say that they didn’t hear what they were saying.

Regardless, they physically saw them. That is communion.

Real love is to speak whatever message that person needs to hear, whether it be a gentle message or a condemning one. Jesus said he would make us fishers of men, different fish require different bait. I think to say that the Bible generally gives a gentle message is not accurate. I’m not exactly sure where you stand, but from what you were saying, I got the impression that Christians pretty much should not ever speak judgment to those who are lost. Perhaps I’m reading too far into your words?

NeverLiberal on December 10, 2008 at 1:10 PM

I think we are on the verge of violent agreement. To be sure, when addressing individuals there is a time for confrontation and even righteous anger. My comments really were meant more to describe our behavior in a public, anonymous setting (such as this), where we have no way of knowing the heart of anyone reading our words. The world already has such a wrong idea of Christ and Christianity — that Christians all think we are perfect, and that we hate people who don’t believe what we believe — that we have to take some care that people understand that our Gospel is a Gospel of peace, and that it was because “God so loved the world” that he sent his Son. Remember, Jesus healed people, THEN told them to sin no more. First compassion; then correction. And we certainly can’t hold non-Christians accountable for unsound doctrine, as I’ve seen some here do.

I admit to over-generalizing; but at the same time, I’ll say that IN GENERAL, in posts such as these, even our correction should be with gentleness:

The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition (II Tim 2:24-25 NASB)

But we probably agree far more than we disagree. I’ve been far too sloppy with my contributions to the discussion.

It wasn’t just Jesus that communed with them…the Apostles also did.

No, they didn’t. They had no idea what they were saying to Jesus.

Just because Jesus could commune with them, does not mean that they can commune with us.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:38 PM

It wasn’t just Jesus that communed with them…the Apostles also did.

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:50 AM

This post goes into more details on how this works.

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:25 PM

That still doesn’t answer for Samuel, the prophet King Saul spoke to.

The fact that Moses appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration is proof that the Saints are Living, and can thus be venerated and communicated with.

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:25 PM

How so? Just because Jesus could commune with them, does not mean that they can commune with us. If so, why did Saul need a witch in order to talk to Samuel?

Ha We on December 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Islam is essentially a Christian heresy.

The domes and architecture, the full prostrations,the praying towards the east etc.., were all stolen from the Orthodox Church.

Mohammed was taught by a Christian heretic who denied the divinity of Christ and was excommunicated from the Church.

Just because Mohammad stuck some half-remembered stories from Judaism and Christianity in his ramblings does not mean that Islam is related to Christianity in any way.

Ha We on December 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM

No, it’s because they share the same ancestors and at one point worshiped under the same religion.

Ha We on December 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Then why is it considered an Abrahamic religion?

Then how was Moses in Heaven before Jesus died? Are you forgetting when he appeared before before Jesus and the disciples?

Moses like Enoch and Elijah was translated into heaven bodily.

Saint Moses met Christ directly, just like Abraham,Jacob and many other old testament saints.

All of the manifestations of God in the old testament were the preincarnate Christ Himself. YHWH is God the Word.

The fact that Moses appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration is proof that the Saints are Living, and can thus be venerated and communicated with.

I know it was pointed out before, but if Bin Laden is Muslim, then technically the god he talks about is the same as the god of the Jews and Christians. They may not seem the same, but the origins are.

thequeball on December 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM

The origins are most definitely not the same. Islam rose out of Arab Paganism. Mohammad worshiped a god called Al’Ilah Sin, who was god of the moon in the Arab pantheon. This is why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. This is why Islam follows the lunar calendar. This is why Muslims pray to a meteor kept in a box in Mecca. They certainly don’t worship the Judeo-Christian God.

Just because Mohammad stuck some half-remembered stories from Judaism and Christianity in his ramblings does not mean that Islam is related to Christianity in any way.

Jesus Christ went to Hades after the crucifixion and ministered to the people who died before His incarnation.

SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:08 PM

Then how was Moses in Heaven before Jesus died? Are you forgetting when he appeared before before Jesus and the disciples?

And what about when King Saul spoke with the dead prophet?

I’ll maintain, though, that — especially in an anonymous forum such as this — “a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” (Prov 15:1 NASB)

RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM

I think the real problem is not so much an error in syntax as is the problem of over-generalizing a Christians approach towards others. It is true that Jesus was very compassionate towards many, but to say that because he acted a certain way in different situations means that Christians should avoid offending or speaking judgment to others is misleading. (if that is indeed what your saying) Jesus was able to read the spirits of the people he interacted with and knew what the right way of handling the situation was. Some people have an honest heart and simply need a message of compassion and forgiveness, while others are hard-hearted and need an attitude adjustment. Sometimes stiring up anger is exactly what God has in mind. Stephen in Acts 7 certainly wasn’t being a diplomat when he called the Pharisees, “betrayers and murders,” right before they became so enraged that they stoned him to death. I think Christians sometimes are afraid to speak against some things because they don’t want to look like they don’t have love, but thats because they are basing it on what the world defines as love and not God. Real love is to speak whatever message that person needs to hear, whether it be a gentle message or a condemning one. Jesus said he would make us fishers of men, different fish require different bait. I think to say that the Bible generally gives a gentle message is not accurate. I’m not exactly sure where you stand, but from what you were saying, I got the impression that Christians pretty much should not ever speak judgment to those who are lost. Perhaps I’m reading too far into your words?

Yes, the church in generic terms, not your church.

Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 12:51 PM

It can’t be the Church in generic terms because churches do not hold the same faith and disagree with each other about many issues.

There is ONE Baptism and ONE Faith and the gates of hades will not prevail against it

Jesus is THE way, and that includes people who died before Jesus was around, but somehow they got into Heaven without knowing the name.

Jesus Christ went to Hades after the crucifixion and ministered to the people who died before His incarnation.