Video: Bush on faith and Christianity
posted at 8:00 pm on December 9, 2008 by Allahpundit
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One hundred comments in the Headline item means you’re probably interested in the clip. A far-ranging chat here with a few surprises (e.g., he doesn’t believe the Bible’s literally true), but predictably the conversation steers around to whether he thinks he’s on a mission from God that might, perchance, involve voices in his head giving him military advice. All part of the media’s Stillson-ification of evangelical hawks, for whom imputations of this sort are de rigueur. Although in fairness, depending on whom you believe, Bush may have gone further in his rhetoric at times than is customary.
The most interesting bit: The beginning of the second clip, when he talks about Christianity being but one “avenue” to the God whom believers of all faiths worship in common. A fine, politic answer, but in my Catholic days I was under the impression that the only path to salvation lay through Christ. Maybe I’m misremembering?
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Billy Graham spent his whole life preaching Jesus to the world. So either he’s mistaken and lied when he preached Jesus as the only way, or he’s mistaken and is lying now to say that those who have never heard of Jesus have another path. I’m going to put the blame for this on Dr Graham’s advance age.
abcurtis on December 10, 2008 at 9:14 AM
Terrye – I do not wish to be indelicate, I am to tell the truth in love, and sometimes I get overzealous. That is a failing of mine.
Please accept my apology in love.
ABC.
abcurtis on December 10, 2008 at 9:15 AM
The new PC requires that Christianity change it’s basic teachings to avoid offending.
MarkTheGreat on December 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM
Jesus said that he didn’t come to end the law, but to fulfill it. Observant Jews are not going to hell.
MarkTheGreat on December 10, 2008 at 9:22 AM
I just received a Christmas card from the Bush family postmarked Crawford. I am very proud of this man.
carbon_footprint on December 10, 2008 at 9:29 AM
Mohammed made the claim that the God he was describing was the same one that the Jews and Christians worshipped, but even a casual reading of the respective holy texts shows that Mohammed had no idea what he was talking about.
The Koran references many of the same stories that the Old and New Testament reference, but they differ in many significant details. It’s as if somebody heard some stories in their youth, and tried to remember them in old age.
The very nature of the God detailed in the two traditions is completely different.
The Judeo/Chritian God is a god of compassion and love. The texts frequently refer to God’s love for his people, and their love for him. In many places, the relationship is analogized as a marriage.
Love is the last word that anyone would use to describe the god of the Koran.
MarkTheGreat on December 10, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Yes Christianity is one “avenue”, composed of two lanes, one power and one prostration, one a restricted lane for few and one a lane for all, and in both occasions their finest hours are in death.
LevStrauss on December 10, 2008 at 9:35 AM
As the thread seems to winding down, take a moment to reflect on a a deep theological question from “Bart Simpson’s Guide to Life”:
“Could God create a corndog so huge even God couldn’t eat it all?”
DarkCurrent on December 10, 2008 at 10:00 AM
That’s one approach, unfortunately (and I assume that you, like me, reject that approach).
Another is, in understandable but misguided defiance to PC, to force-feed fire and brimstone on an audience that can (and almost always will) simply walk away.
A third approach is to approach people in love and compassion, tell nothing but the truth, but be sensitive to give them only as much at any one time as they are able to receive — ie introduce them to Jesus, not
Of course, the third one was they way Jesus taught (and a darned good strategy for teaching anything, as it turns out). The only people he ever scolded were the Pharisees, and that was because they knew and rejected God’s Word. He also knew the hearts of men, and was able to know things that the rest of us could only guess.
But (to be completely clear) Christians should NEVER be dishonest about their beliefs. If we perceive that the person isn’t ready to receive the answer, then we should decline to answer until we perceive they ARE ready, but we should never, EVER lie.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM
oops, got interrupted mid-edit and never finished my sentence –
“ie introduce them to Jesus, not throw him at people like weapon.”
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Also:
-The YHWH of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus is an entity who delights in making and pain-stakingly keeping His promises.
-The Allah of the Koran is unpredictable and capricious (read that “untrustworthy”).
They are far from the same entity.
Harpazo on December 10, 2008 at 10:19 AM
As an atheist-leaning-agnostic, the existence of those sorts of sentiments and thinking among Christians is one of the reasons Christianity is at the top of my short list of respectable religions.
There may be hope for some of us yet, if there are enough like you.
DarkCurrent on December 10, 2008 at 10:20 AM
No not all believers as is plain in the comment. Just certain trolls in particular. Perhaps I was a might harsh but It becomes tiresome.
ronsfi on December 10, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Nope, you’re spot on. Shame on him for selling out for political reasons. I’ll go so far as to say that if he really believes that, he’s not really a Christian. If he doesn’t believe that, he’s misleading people with a false hope. Either way, he’ll answer for that one.
Beo on December 10, 2008 at 10:31 AM
RegularJoe, you said it perfectly.
Beo on December 10, 2008 at 10:33 AM
literally true, as long as you understand that a lot of it is allegorical.
The God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. – 2 Cor 4:4
kirkill on December 10, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Perhaps I’m missing something. I don’t see anything that indicates in any way, let alone plainly, that you were referring to any subset of religious folk.
I don’t mean to be argumentative, but your broad brush has (according to your second message) hit any number of innocent bystanders. Personally, I don’t really mind; it’s a blessing, as it gives me an opportunity to discuss these things with you. But in a more secular sense, it was quite an indiscriminate rant.
May I ask what it is that you find so tiresome?
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 10:41 AM
“sober minded faithful”
If the shoe fits wear it. If it does not then don’t.
ronsfi on December 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM
No there is no salvation in judaism.
In fact it is a Christian heresy and of the anti-Christ spirit.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 10:54 AM
Umm…seek and ye shall find…
ronsfi on December 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM
You’re not, but if Christians agreed on everything, we wouldn’t have so many denominations.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 11:01 AM
John 14:6
“I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through me”.
There is only 1 way to heaven and to God, and that is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for our sins.
PC verbage has no place in Truth. Now, does Bush believe what he said, possibly. My understanding is he is attends a Methodist church, and their teaching has liberalized quite a bit (though not to near the extent the Episcopal church has).
Besides, logically speaking, all roads can not lead to the same god. Each religion has completely different requirements and 2 of them Christianity and Islam both say their’s is the only way. By that logic in and of itself, there can not be multiple paths to God. So, we have can rule that statement out as counter intuitive and illogical.
He may actually believe what he said. He would be wrong, but he may believe it.
I also read above that observant jews are not going to hell? I would dispute that. Anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior has decided to doom themselves. He offers the gift, we choose to accept or reject the gift.
2 Peter 3:9 says “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance”. God has provided us a way, through the sacrifice of His son, Jesus. It is up to us however, to accept His free gift of salvation. Many choose not to.
Jesus loves us, and that is why he sacrificed Himself for our sins, as the only way to bridge the great chasm between a sinful man and a holy God.
psv
psv on December 10, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Huh? Which Bible are you reading? Jesus rebuked a whole lot more than just the Pharisees.
NeverLiberal on December 10, 2008 at 11:11 AM
1. You have no idea that he doesn’t believe that.
2. Where in the Bible does it say that you have to believe that other people don’t worship God by another name?
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM
One only finds if one seeks where there is something to be found.
It’s too long to include here, but I would direct you to I Chron. 1, verses 18-29
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Maybe so, but it’s true. Abraham had two sons. One Issac, the other Ishmael. They both worshiped the same God but did so in different ways. Hundreds of years later, we’re here.
People bring their own perspectives when describing a person. I’m sure some people think you’re the nicest person they’ve ever met, but some others probably think you’re a complete jerk.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM
You are not very good at reading between the lines then.
ronsfi on December 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I’ll cop to over-generalizing and clumping all of the religious leaders of the day (Sadducees, priests, etc.) under the category of ‘Pharisees’, which is technically incorrect and sloppy; and that may be all you mean.
But I stand by my general point. When he encountered the woman caught in adultery, or the woman at the well, or Zacheus — yes, he would tell them to ’sin no more’; but in every instance I can think of, apart from the religious leaders, his approach was compassionate, not scolding. The real zingers — “Brood of vipers”, and “Blind guides”, who “strain at a gnat and swallow a camel” — were reserved for the religious leaders.
I make mistakes all the time, though, so I don’t doubt the general premise that I could be wrong. If you can cite examples where he scolded other folks, I’d appreciate being corrected.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 11:34 AM
There’s nothing but blank space between the lines, and attempting to read something there is perilous because each person can fill it in with whatever he wants. I speak plainly, and if others wish to communicate something to me they will need to do likewise. It’s their choice, of course. But I find it foolish to infer other people’s meaning, unless I know the person VERY well (for example, I know when my wife’s “mm-hm” means “drop it NOW or pay the consequences”).
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Okay, I just realized I’ve been missing one blindingly obvious exception — his own disciples. He certainly would scold them when they ‘didn’t get it’ (”get thee behind me, Satan!”, for example).
That’s still not the same as scolding “people in general”, though it certainly DOES show my original statement to be inaccurate. And finding one exception certainly increases my estimated odds of there being others.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Peter in Matthew 16:23, the lunatick’s father and the disciples in Matthew 17:17, the moneychangers in John 2:16 and Matthew 21:13, Satan in Matthew 4:10, the son who was going to bury his father and the man who was going to bid his family farewell in Luke 9:59-62, his own mother in John 2:4, the cities where he did mighty works in Matthew 11:20-24, the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:26 (before he helped her), the rich man in Matthew 19:17, James and John in Luke 9:55-56, the man who asked Jesus to make his brother divide his inheritance in Luke 12:14-15, the ruler of the synagogue in Luke 13:15, and Herod in Luke 13:32. There are more, I just don’t feel like looking them all up. He rebuked some more sharply than others, but he rebuked them all to one degree or another. In the case of the Canaanite woman, his rebuke to her seemed to be testing her faith.
NeverLiberal on December 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM
Cynthia McFadden is a stone moron.
I haven’t been able to watch or listen to her since 1998, when she referred to Princess Diana’s funeral cortege as a “cortage.” She’s an idiot.
The fact that these people think they’re superior to George W. Bush bothers me more than it should. History will straighten it out. I need to learn some Christlike patience I’m afraid.
CornFedBeauty on December 10, 2008 at 12:13 PM
I know it was pointed out before, but if Bin Laden is Muslim, then technically the god he talks about is the same as the god of the Jews and Christians. They may not seem the same, but the origins are.
Seems pretty awful. What about those who have never heard or died before Jesus was born/died? Do they end up in hell? Can’t say that makes God seem very loving if they do.
thequeball on December 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM
The most interesting bit: The beginning of the second clip, when he talks about Christianity being but one “avenue” to the God whom believers of all faiths worship in common. A fine, politic answer, but in my Catholic days I was under the impression that the only path to salvation lay through Christ. Maybe I’m misrememberingNot misremembering
I think Bush has confused Christ and Ghandi
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Christ was explicit. At Capernaum he said “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent john 6:29
I am the bread of life john 6:48
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever john 6:58
At Passover Jesus spoke heresy (unless he was truly the Messiah) when he declared the ceremonial unleavened bread that saved the Jews to be his body (which he had linked many times to Himself as the Bread of Life) and made the ceremonial wine (which was blessed and represented the blood of the lamb splashed on the doorways to stop the Angel of Death) into His blood
I guess this explains Bush’s rubber reading of our law
entagor on December 10, 2008 at 12:30 PM
sorry, that was a quote above
I think Bush has confused Christ and Ghandi
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Christ was explicit. At Capernaum he said “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent john 6:29
I am the bread of life john 6:48
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever john 6:58
At Passover Jesus spoke heresy (unless he was truly the Messiah) when he declared the ceremonial unleavened bread that saved the Jews to be his body (which he had linked many times to Himself as the Bread of Life) and made the ceremonial wine (which was blessed and represented the blood of the lamb splashed on the doorways to stop the Angel of Death) into His blood
I guess this explains Bush’s rubber reading of our law
entagor on December 10, 2008 at 12:30 PM
entagor on December 10, 2008 at 12:31 PM
We may have slight semantic differences on what constitutes “scolding”, and what constitutes “religious leader”, but a couple of your examples clearly show my statement to have been incorrect. Yes, Jesus did in fact occasionally scold people. And (it occurs to me as I’ve been reflecting) he told his disciples that if they were not received that they should “shake the dust off of their shoes” as they leave. So I’ll agree my statement was too broad.
I’ll maintain, though, that — especially in an anonymous forum such as this — “a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” (Prov 15:1 NASB)
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
That’s actually a really good point.
There is only supposed to be ONE Church.
Christ said that the Church he established would not disappear.
There can be only one Church, undivided both in doctrine and in practice, and this was witnessed to by the words of our Lord Himself Who said “..upon this rock(Christ) shall I build my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18)
There is “One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord of All…” (Eph. 4:5).
If Christ’s Church does not still exist, then Christ would be a liar, which He is not.
It does exist. It is the Orthodox Church(lit. correct belief/correct worship). It is has unbroken apostolic succession going back to the Apostles and Christ.
The Roman Catholic Church does not have apostolic succession because they added to and changed the faith when they split from the Church do to a want for more power.(Even though the greatest of Popes,St. Gregory the Great, said “whoever calls himself, or desires to be called, Universal Bishop, is in his elation the precursor of Antichrist”)
All Protestant Churches came from the Roman Catholic Church.
They were PROTESTING it, that’s what the name PROTESTant means.
There never was a “Reformation” among the Orthodox Church because there was nothing to protest.
They kept the Faith unaltered as they received it and the gates of hades have not prevailed against it for nearly 2,000 years.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Right, again, you are The way. Everyone else, except you, is wrong.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Lol.
It’s certainly not me..I’m not even a Priest or a Saint.
Christ is THE WAY.
HE established the Church for our salvation and resides in it.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Yes, the church in generic terms, not your church.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 12:51 PM
apacalyps on December 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM
I know it was pointed out before, but if Bin Laden is
The leftovers in my refrigerator and the poop in my toilet have the same origins. One is still as good as it was yesterday; the other has been polluted beyond recognition.
This is one of the hardest questions for a Christian to answer. We get a few peaks at an answer — for example, Romans 1:20 says:
But it’s difficult for me to understand EXACTLY what that means — are they responsible for deducing the name “Jesus”, and that he was crucified? That seems unlikely, but maybe. Are the responsible for understanding only “His eternal power and divine nature”? That’s what it really seems to say here, but it’s difficult to reconcile with other passages that tell us we must believe in Jesus to be saved. Simple answer: I don’t know, and I’m highly skeptical of people who say they do.
But here are some things I do know:
1. God is God, and I am not; so He gets to make the rules, not me.
2. Jesus’ commandment to Christians was to tell people the things he taught us.
3. One of those things he taught us was that He was THE way.
So I don’t really know, specifically, how God deals with the as yet unreached people-group in the Amazon, or the communist Chinese who are prevented by their government from hearing the Gospel of Christ; but what is clear from scripture is that I’m responsible for doing what I can to communicate that Gospel, and that people who hear it are responsible for what they do with it.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 12:53 PM
I like to think of it this way – Jesus is the one source for salvation, but many of us won’t realize it till we get there.
Rosmerta on December 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Those who don’t believe in christ aren’t condemned? What do you say to that H/A christian soldiers?
dk on December 10, 2008 at 12:57 PM
The Bible also talks about how everyone knows of God through God’s creation. To me, that implies that everyone knows that God exists and either rejects or accepts him.
They may not know the name of Jesus, but that doesn’t mean they can’t call upon him (in my opinion). Jesus is THE way, and that includes people who died before Jesus was around, but somehow they got into Heaven without knowing the name.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Pardon my quoting in my last message; it came out attributing a heretical comment to ABCurtis, which was certainly not my intention.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 1:02 PM
It can’t be the Church in generic terms because churches do not hold the same faith and disagree with each other about many issues.
There is ONE Baptism and ONE Faith and the gates of hades will not prevail against it
Jesus Christ went to Hades after the crucifixion and ministered to the people who died before His incarnation.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:08 PM
I think the real problem is not so much an error in syntax as is the problem of over-generalizing a Christians approach towards others. It is true that Jesus was very compassionate towards many, but to say that because he acted a certain way in different situations means that Christians should avoid offending or speaking judgment to others is misleading. (if that is indeed what your saying) Jesus was able to read the spirits of the people he interacted with and knew what the right way of handling the situation was. Some people have an honest heart and simply need a message of compassion and forgiveness, while others are hard-hearted and need an attitude adjustment. Sometimes stiring up anger is exactly what God has in mind. Stephen in Acts 7 certainly wasn’t being a diplomat when he called the Pharisees, “betrayers and murders,” right before they became so enraged that they stoned him to death. I think Christians sometimes are afraid to speak against some things because they don’t want to look like they don’t have love, but thats because they are basing it on what the world defines as love and not God. Real love is to speak whatever message that person needs to hear, whether it be a gentle message or a condemning one. Jesus said he would make us fishers of men, different fish require different bait. I think to say that the Bible generally gives a gentle message is not accurate. I’m not exactly sure where you stand, but from what you were saying, I got the impression that Christians pretty much should not ever speak judgment to those who are lost. Perhaps I’m reading too far into your words?
NeverLiberal on December 10, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Then how was Moses in Heaven before Jesus died? Are you forgetting when he appeared before before Jesus and the disciples?
And what about when King Saul spoke with the dead prophet?
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:15 PM
The origins are most definitely not the same. Islam rose out of Arab Paganism. Mohammad worshiped a god called Al’Ilah Sin, who was god of the moon in the Arab pantheon. This is why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. This is why Islam follows the lunar calendar. This is why Muslims pray to a meteor kept in a box in Mecca. They certainly don’t worship the Judeo-Christian God.
Just because Mohammad stuck some half-remembered stories from Judaism and Christianity in his ramblings does not mean that Islam is related to Christianity in any way.
Ha We on December 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Moses like Enoch and Elijah was translated into heaven bodily.
Saint Moses met Christ directly, just like Abraham,Jacob and many other old testament saints.
All of the manifestations of God in the old testament were the preincarnate Christ Himself. YHWH is God the Word.
The fact that Moses appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration is proof that the Saints are Living, and can thus be venerated and communicated with.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Then why is it considered an Abrahamic religion?
thequeball on December 10, 2008 at 1:28 PM
No, it’s because they share the same ancestors and at one point worshiped under the same religion.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Islam is essentially a Christian heresy.
The domes and architecture, the full prostrations,the praying towards the east etc.., were all stolen from the Orthodox Church.
Mohammed was taught by a Christian heretic who denied the divinity of Christ and was excommunicated from the Church.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:30 PM
That still doesn’t answer for Samuel, the prophet King Saul spoke to.
How so? Just because Jesus could commune with them, does not mean that they can commune with us. If so, why did Saul need a witch in order to talk to Samuel?
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:38 PM
It wasn’t just Jesus that communed with them…the Apostles also did.
This post goes into more details on how this works.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 1:48 PM
No, they didn’t. They had no idea what they were saying to Jesus.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 1:57 PM
I think we are on the verge of violent agreement. To be sure, when addressing individuals there is a time for confrontation and even righteous anger. My comments really were meant more to describe our behavior in a public, anonymous setting (such as this), where we have no way of knowing the heart of anyone reading our words. The world already has such a wrong idea of Christ and Christianity — that Christians all think we are perfect, and that we hate people who don’t believe what we believe — that we have to take some care that people understand that our Gospel is a Gospel of peace, and that it was because “God so loved the world” that he sent his Son. Remember, Jesus healed people, THEN told them to sin no more. First compassion; then correction. And we certainly can’t hold non-Christians accountable for unsound doctrine, as I’ve seen some here do.
I admit to over-generalizing; but at the same time, I’ll say that IN GENERAL, in posts such as these, even our correction should be with gentleness:
But we probably agree far more than we disagree. I’ve been far too sloppy with my contributions to the discussion.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 2:01 PM
How do you know that? The Bible doesn’t say that they didn’t hear what they were saying.
Regardless, they physically saw them. That is communion.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Sorry, brother, but I can’t agree with you on this one. Praying to Mary is quite unbiblical. The Bible does not teach this. First allow me to tell you that I won’t fight a brother in Christ. Nope. Won’t do it. However, I always encourage people to question what you’re being taught, question what I say, question the Bible. It’ll stand up to scrutiny. “Come now, and let us reason together,” the Lord says (Isaiah 1:18). Nothing wrong with questioning the Bible. So if you want my Christian brother, let’s reason together and see if the Bible teaches we should pray to Mary and the saints. Okay, let’s test it out. Check it out. See if those things are so as per God’s command that we should reason with each other.
Yes, Mary was a wonderful lady, chosen by God to be the earthly mother of Jesus Christ. Moreover, she was a virgin at His birth. I hope and pray I will meet her on Resurrection Day, when the saints come forth from the grave. On the other hand, we do not pray to Mary nor make images of her because the Bible teaches: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” (Luke 4:8). The Bible consistently teaches that prayer should be directed to God the Father. When the disciples asked Jesus, “Lord, teach us to pray,” the first thing He said was, “When ye pray, say, Our Father…” and then went on to teach the Lord’s prayer. Jesus once asked another group of people, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Since Jesus asks us to pray to the Father, let’s do it!
It’s not alright to pray to the saints themselves, that they may serve as mediators between us and God, Olaf. Jesus said, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). And 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is even more specific: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all.” Christ is our mediator, because it is He who brings us into contact with God. He paid all that God required for our sins, so that we sinners may pray directly, “Our Father…”. Why would God tell us that Jesus Christ is the only mediator if it is a lie, and there are really many mediators?
Are the saints omniscient and omnipresent, so that they can understand thousands of prayers from all over the world in many different languages, all at the same time?
apacalyps on December 10, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Christ is the only mediator between us and God.
No man can know the essence of God, but we know Him through Christ. I agree that there is no mediator but Christ.
In a way saints are dead to themselves. Like St Paul said “My life is hid in Christ”. It is Christ who lives within them that we venerate(which is different than worship). It is God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit that we worship.
When we ask a Saint to pray for us,they pray to Christ for us. Again Christ is the mediator.
Is your Pastor or Mother the mediator between you and God if you ask her to pray for you? Of course not.
This process is the image of the Liturgy taking place in heaven, the incence is the prayers of the saints before Christ.
Did Christ condemn the Apostle Peter who when drowning said “Lord save me” to Christ?
Of course not.
Did not Christ also teach us to pray to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Yes He did.
And prayers of intercession to the Saints is prayer to Christ.
They don’t have to be omniscient. God directs our prayers of intercession for them, to them. And their prayers for us are the incence before Christ.
I don’t know about you, but I am a wicked and vile sinner far from pure. I need all the saints praying for me that I can get.
One doesn’t have to have saints praying for them, but it is absolutely Biblical and is a great benefit.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM
This was inevitable. You two are perfect for each other.
I’m leaving. Have fun.
Esthier on December 10, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Sounds fair enough. If your interested in checking out a cool site, check out Godsaidmansaid.com. Its loaded with good faith-building subjects and backed with diligent research. God bless RJ.
NeverLiberal on December 10, 2008 at 3:35 PM
http://www.yadayahweh.com
bridgetown on December 10, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Smart girl.
I used to have a very close friend who was E. Orthodox (no falling out, I just moved away), and we spent many hours talking, trying to find common ground. The problem is that Protestants believe in “Sola Scriptura” – the scriptures alone, or at least “Prima Scriptura” – the scriptures first. The Orthodox Church gives equal weight to the traditions of their Church (a confidence of which I was both envious and suspicious, in both cases because of the failings of tradition in the western Church heritage). They also are far more comfortable with the concept of “mystery” — I don’t want to mis-characterize this, but as I understood it the idea was the acceptance that certain things simply were so, and we had no standing to question them. We in the western tradition have some of this, but we are far more interested in systematic theology and epistemology than the Orthodox. Not that that’s a bad thing.
The point is, you guys have certain fundamental differences in your basic assumptions, and are unlikely to agree, for example, on prayer to the saints. I urge you to embrace one another as brothers in Christ, however, both acknowledging the first things of our faith: Christ born of a virgin, sinless, died for forgiveness of our sins, and resurrected in power over the grave. The rest is important, and worth prayerful searching and even contention in an appropriate context; but I’m not sure it is so important that we should do battle with one another before the world.
RegularJoe on December 10, 2008 at 4:16 PM
I do. I truly admire Apacalyps. His devotion is moving.
There are often many cases of Protestant Laity or Clergy who are more devoted than various Orthodox clergy…the point is that you never know someone’s salvation purely because of their denomination. I was a fundamentalist before and I believe that helped me in a a way to find the True Church that Christ established.
It is not the Orthodox position to judge whether other Christians who profess Christ and believe in the Holy Trinity are saved or not. We assume that they are and consider other Trinitarian Churches, Ecclesial communities I believe.
SaintOlaf on December 10, 2008 at 5:13 PM
I disagree with your explanation Olaf and I’ll show you why. As I respond, please don’t think that I am being mean or that I’m angry. I’m not (smiles). I think you are a good soldier of Jesus Christ my friend and I’m trying to help you. I think you’re wrong on this topic.
As you should. It is VITAL we stress that only ONE who was both God and man, the man Christ Jesus, can mediate between men and our Creator God. He is the only way to God (”I am the way, the truth…” John 14:6) and our only true Advocate with the Father: “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2
“And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory” (Isaiah 6:3). 1 God. 3 Persons. Describing Himself.
Ah, see, this is where you lose me. The Bible never infers that any saints, living or dead, sympathize with us more than God does, nor does it even once mention the possibilty of anyone praying to or through them. It does, however, say of Christ, “For we have not an high priest (our high priest is Christ) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities (Christ understands our weaknesses); but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace (to Jesus Christ), that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:15-16
You can’t have it both ways, my friend. You can’t say that we ask the saints to pray for us, and they pray to Christ for us, and then say that Christ is the only mediator between us and God the Father. That doesn’t make sense. There is a third party involved. As I pointed out, 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is very specific: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all.” Why would God tell us that Jesus Christ is the only mediator if it is a lie, and there are really many mediators, and yes, praying to Mary and the saints acts as a link between us and the Father. Can you think of a good reason not to pray to Him in the first place?
That’s because all three are equal. The Bible teaches that we can pray to one or all three, because all three are One. But, that doesn’t mean we are to pray to Mary and various saints such as Peter. Such prayers are not scriptural and are, in fact, an insult to our heavenly Father and against His expressed will.
I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where it says that God the Father hears our prayers and tells the saints what it is the people ask for so they can pray to Jesus who in turn prays to God the Father who answers the prayer. I love you man, but, uh, that is stretching it a bit. Like I said, praying to saints, uh, the saints would have to be omniscient (infinitely wise) and omnipresent (present everywhere at once) so that they can understand thousands of prayers from all over the world in many different languages, all at the same time. — even if God the Father (as you suggest) hears our prayers and redirects them to the saints. Only God can be in all places at once to hear the thousands of prayers coming from all around the world at the same time.
Yes, we are wicked vile sinners. Amen. Amen. Amen!
I think you’re making a big mistake. God loves us. He wants to be our friend and our Father. He asks us to pray directly to Him, to have communion with Him, to honour Him and praise Him. He feels left out when we venerate someone or something else. The Bible tells us that He is jealous of our love, and helps us understand this by giving us the illustration of a husband who doesn’t want his wife to go out with other men. What are we saying to God when we turn our backs on Him and pray to a saint? It is a great offense to infer that He is not as kind, considerate, and compassionate as the saints are. I hope you take another look at this my friend. A study of the prayers in the Bible will show you that all were addressed to God the Father, and none to saints who had died. My prayers are for you — and I’ll be praying to my Heavenly Father, in Jesus’ precious name, amen.
apacalyps on December 10, 2008 at 8:29 PM
You’re exactly right, RegularJoe. Well, said. I’m okay on my side of things. No worries here. I love Olaf. Him, and I, we have gone into battle against the scoffers many times. He is my brother. I can’t wait to be in heaven with him both of us on our hands and knees worshipping Almighty God. I’ve pretty much made my point on the saints issue. He’ll think about it. The Holy Spirit will guide Him, as it will guide me. Thanks again, for your loving comments Joe, may the Lord bless us in our searching and our questions.
apacalyps on December 10, 2008 at 9:00 PM
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