Triggerism, Trutherism, and Birtherism
posted at 9:00 am on December 5, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Michelle takes a close look at the conspiracy-theory impulse on the Left, Right, and fringe today in her syndicated column. Whether one thinks that Sarah Palin has to prove her maternity of Trig or that Barack Obama has to produce a witness to his birth in Hawaii or that the 19 al-Qaeda terrorists actually flew commercial jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the real truth is that these conspiracy theories become belief systems based on conjecture and speculation rather than actual facts and evidence:
The plain truth will never mollify a Truther. There’s always a convoluted excuse – some inconsequential discrepancy to seize on, some photographic “evidence” to magnify into a blur of meaningless pixels – that will rationalize irrationality. Palin could produce Trig’s umbilical cord and it still wouldn’t be enough.
Alas, Trutherism thrives on both the left and right. Which brings us to the spate of lawsuits challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship. On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court considers one of those suits filed by New Jersey citizen Leo Donofrio, who maintains that Obama is not a “natural born citizen” because his father held British citizenship.
There may be a seed of a legitimate constitutional issue to explore here (how is the citizenship requirement enforced for presidential candidates, anyway?) And at least Donofrio concedes that Obama was born in Hawaii. But a dangerously large segment of the birth certificate hunters have lurched into rabid Truther territory. The most prominent crusader against Obama’s American citizenship claim, lawyer Philip Berg (who, not coincidentally, is also a prominent 9/11 Truther), disputes that Obama was born in Hawaii and claims that Obama’s paternal grandmother told him she saw Obama born in Kenya.
Berg and his supporters further assert that the “Certification of Live Birth” produced by Obama was altered or forged. They claim that the contemporaneous birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper of Obama’s birth is insufficient evidence that he was born there. (Did a fortune-teller place it in the paper knowing he would run for president?). And they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being part and parcel of the grand plan to install Emperor Obama and usurp the rule of law.
I believe Trig was born to Sarah Palin. I believe Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on U.S. soil. I believe fire can melt steel and that bin Laden’s jihadi crew – not Bush and Cheney – perpetrated mass murder on 9/11. What kind of kooky conspiracist does that make me?
Just read the comments section, Michelle, and you’ll soon find out. (The column is also at NRO in shorter form.)
Update: Case in point, as e-mailed to me by Allahpundit. Everyone else’s conspiracy theories are kooky, except for Andrew’s. Andrew claims that no documentary evidence exists of Palin’s pregnancy, but that overlooks this report from her doctor:
The letter, dated Nov. 3, is from Dr. Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who works at the Providence Health and Services Alaska clinic in Anchorage.
Ms. Palin, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson wrote, has been a patient at the clinic since 1991. She said Ms. Palin’s visits “have been related to routine women’s health care and pregnancy.”
Ms. Palin gave birth to her five children in 1989, 1990, 1994, 2000 and 2008. Regarding the birth of her fifth child, Trig, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson said Ms. Palin had “no risk factors other than her age.”
Don’t stop believin’, Andrew!
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Romeo, the Supreme Court has already said they won’t take the case.
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/12/05/obama-citizenship-case-gets-high-courts-attention/
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 11:58 AM
And just in case the word of “mere reporters” doesn’t satisfy, here’s a list of all the cases the Court did grant ceritori to yesterday:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/orders/courtorders/120508zr.pdf
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 12:08 PM
already saw that thanks…
As I said earlier, it does not look good.
The normal way this seems to work is that if it is granted, they release a list that day so people can start to prepare.
However, there is a list of all actions, usualy released on Monday or Tuesday of the following week, which shows all actions, granted or denied, which is the actual denial…
Also, this is only one of the 4 or 5 cases that are still before the Supremes… although IMO this probably had the best chance of being heard on its merits.
Sad day when a Citizen can’t ask his own government, to enforce the Highest Law of the Land (and I’m not just talking about Obama, there was another defendent in this case who was born in Guatamala, and was on the ballot for President in 4 or 5 States).
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Like many other things, Carne has the SCOTUS wrong. The list of cases is not comprehensive so the door is not totally closed. Further, like MSNBC discussed last night, the Justices want nothing less than to get involved in another presidential election. So they will likely dance around it. And the cases seem to be dying.
But…Carne sounds worried. Why should supporters and even opponents be upset? And thousands have been spent on lawyers. And why does The One allow (shudder) division? Where is the caring? The transparency? The sanity?
He may be a better president than George W. Bush, or not, but he has surely acted shadier and crazier. And that is a fact!
And for you Carne? Isn’t it a great feeling to have about The One we have been waiting for..the HOPE is that he gets away with it. The CHANGE is the fact that his whole life was BS even before he was elected. Instead of after — wow nonvetted and precorrupted.
BTW, Here is a ‘not out of context’ slice from Forbes.com that is inconsistent with Carne’s ..ahem, cough, cough…reporter. The relevant Hawaiian State employees can’t divulge information. Carne needs to read facts more often.
“The seeming last word on the subject came from Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s department of health. On October 31 she issued a press release stating that she had personally seen and verified that Hawaii’s state department of health has Obama’s original birth certificate on record.
Berg responds that nowhere does the press release say this original certificate is actually American. Instead, he says, the certificate in Hawaii’s vaults is from Kenya.
Hawaii’s answer to this will surely fuel more fires. “Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,” said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii’s department of health. “I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.”
She added, though, that Dr. Fukino does have authority over and maintains records for individuals born in Hawaii.”
The seeming last word on the subject came from Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s department of health. On October 31 she issued a press release stating that she had personally seen and verified that Hawaii’s state department of health has Obama’s original birth certificate on record.
Berg responds that nowhere does the press release say this original certificate is actually American. Instead, he says, the certificate in Hawaii’s vaults is from Kenya.
Hawaii’s answer to this will surely fuel more fires. “Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,” said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii’s department of health. “I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.”
She added, though, that Dr. Fukino does have authority over and maintains records for individuals born in Hawaii.
The seeming last word on the subject came from Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s department of health. On October 31 she issued a press release stating that she had personally seen and verified that Hawaii’s state department of health has Obama’s original birth certificate on record.
Berg responds that nowhere does the press release say this original certificate is actually American. Instead, he says, the certificate in Hawaii’s vaults is from Kenya.
Hawaii’s answer to this will surely fuel more fires. “Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,” said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii’s department of health. “I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.”
She added, though, that Dr. Fukino does have authority over and maintains records for individuals born in Hawaii.”
David Serchuk in Trailwatch, Novemeber 2008
The other real scandal was information sources like Carne found and the voters who lapped it all up.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Indeed, it is a sad day when the Highest Law of the Land cannot be enforced…
…so, how do you feel about George Bush violating the Constitution regarding the the power to declare war?
http://www.jbs.org/index.php/issues/us-constitution/1859-use-it-or-lose-it
The money quote:
Or is it only the inconvenient bits of the Constitution that matter?
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Worried? You’re joking. This is a riot! I love watching the conspiracy mindset unfold! This is just like watching 9/11 truther “logic” unravel, only in real time. This is flat-out amusement value for me.
Say, did Barack ever file an amicus brief in this court case that got shot down? Where are you guys getting the “thousands of dollars” number, anyways?
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 12:38 PM
LOL… actualy, I’ve called him on this a number of times… just as his suspension of the Habeus Corpus Right when we are not in a time of Insurrection or Invasion…
So, sorry if your diversion does not work in this instance…
S
the briefs that Obama, his campaign, the FEC, and the Dem party filed on the 12 cases brought against them, were all disputing STANDING for an American to sue… and all of these cases were dismissed on issues of STANDING.
IE, that a normal American, or someone who gave money to Obama, or an opposing Party in the Election, or a Voter, or an average American Citizen, does not have the RIGHT to ask the Courts to ensure that the Goverment follow the constitution.
At this point, to me, whether Barry ever releases his Birth Cert is important, but not as important as the idea that we have no recourse, though the courts.
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 12:57 PM
And I might add, in the origional Berg finding the Judge basicly said that only the CONGRESS has Standing to ask for proof… so it then becomes a Political question of whether the Constitution will be enforced or not…
Which is why this whole chain of events is so troubling…
Add in the Fed Res Bank CREATING Trillions of dollars, when the Constituion says only the Fed Gov can coin money… and giving it to the banks which OWN the Fed Res Bank???? With essentialy no Federal Oversite or control???
Intersting times…
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Any time I need a laugh I just look at The One and either:
His followers
His muscles.
His list of promises to he sheepies.
reported, Supreme Court, legal fees…Carne reminds me of one of those victims in Whack a Mole.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 1:28 PM
I apologize for the typos above.
The smart money thinks SCOTUS will just ignore the Constitution on this. The section is inconvenient and outdated. And all the flack they got the last time they became involved in an election…
And all these years I thought the document meant something. But this does open up an avenue for a lot of CHANGE.
The whole Bill of Rights is a pain…and some Amendments…
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Agreed.
And listen – if The Left was doing this to McCain they would have a whole different outlook on it.
Just allot of childish partisan mishigas fueled by inssanity.
He’s a citizen, he won, many of us didn’t support or vote for him but he will be the POTUS.
And the rest of you are like the victims of the PUMA/Truther spiked kool-aid/punchbowl. The more you drink the more your tin foil shines in the full moon.
Case closed.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 2:10 PM
Don’t ask that question – the obvious response will come spewing out – you will be accused of being a Liberal, or a Democrat….LOL.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Ah, once again, not a single substantive word on the issue… not the single answering of anything brought up in this entire thread…
Just the “You’re a truther” arguement… which sounds just like the Bigot, Racist, Homophobe, Hater labels we get tar’d with from the Left…
How amusing that you stoop to the exact same tactic….
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Intersting, as to how I ALREADY ANSWERED THIS!
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Romeo, wait till they leave. The ward, shelter or library will get them busy soon.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Well look it here…16 hours later and no one person can come up with an example they say is happening…not one.
They have been blogging about how you can be born somewhere else, and still put Hawaii down as the birth place…but not one example of it ever happening.
I think that tells most everything you need to know about how “factual” this all is…since the most important piece of evidence, has no evidence.
Sorry to burst your bubble…wait, that doesn’t matter, “you believe”, facts doesn’t matter, “you believe”, not having any proof of it ever happening is needed, “you believe”.
Well you might as well blame the Lizard People, there is just as much proof they are behind this, then anything you have…
right2bright on December 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM
For all of the name-callers here, does dual/multiple citizenship bar anyone from being qualified to take on the US Presidency – assuming that person were born as a “natural-born citizen” of America?
If so, then natural-born citizenship is not something that starts at birth and lasts a lifetime, no matter what the person does (which is the argument behind the D’Onofrio case). One can lose “natural-born citizen” status by taking on other citizenship, regardless of the circumstances of citizenship at birth.
If not, then a US President could be a current dual citizen or take on another citizenship while in office. I don’t think anyone would consider this to be reasonable, nor could anyone with a brain argue that the Founders would not have minded this circumstance.
Or … you could argue that being a “natural-born citizen” is something that can come and go in ones lifetime, as someone takes on other citizenships and relinquishes them (which is about the stupidest idea one could propose).
This is the crux of the problem, and the direct evidence that this is pertinent in BHO’s case, is that he’s admitted to having had dual citizenship (he admits to Kenyan, while D’Onofrio points to British at birth) and his time in Indonesia, some documents, and trip to Pakistan points to a third citizenship (Indonesian).
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Sigh, the exact Hawaii statute that says this can happen has been posted, multiple times.
Also the statute that says information on this form can change due to adoption proceedings.
Because I can’t produce an example of one, does not mean that the law does not exist to modify the information on this 2007 produced document.
Tell me, if you were a judge, and you were given a document that you KNEW could be modified by law, and a case depended on the information on said document, would you not ask for the Origional document?
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Agreed, and that they fight this by contesting the Standing to sue, instead of the merits… is very troubling to me.
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 2:44 PM
And, considering the fact that we have so many dual/multiple citizens now, one would think that the importance of establishing the rules and parameters for this would be important, in and of themselves.
I don’t even have words for it, anymore.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 2:49 PM
And I am in full agreement with you on the stupidity and danger of the “lack of standing” argument. When I read that ruling for the Berg case I almost fell out of my chair.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 2:56 PM
The same standing issue came up when the Ohio secretary of state failed to follow the Help America Vote Act.
America is screwed and most people in America are so dumbed-down they don’t even care. Sigh. The conversations here show what happens when you try to do calculus with people who have never learned their times tables. I’m sure Bill Ayers is laughing his guts out.
Very troubling times.
justincase on December 6, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Yeah…. everyone is making the wrong standing arguement though…
If I declare, in an oath, to defend the Constitution of the US… and I do not do so… I break my oath, and thus sin… and could potentialy go to hell….
If its my Honor, and maybe immortal soul, isn’t that potential damage enough to give me standing?
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 3:32 PM
I’ll stick with the direct harm to any citizen that being under the control of a usurper entails, or the harm to a voter over a lack of legitimate choices for an election and, thus, a fraudulent election process. But, the courts have basically said that no voter has standing in such a suit even if a turnip were some party’s candidate. Given that no official checks were performed on BHO, this is what we have. Even Jonathan Turley (who thinks that Bush totally shredded the Constitution during his tenure) cannot believe the courts’ arguments against voter standing in these suits. There is direct damage, and serious damage, to any voter forced to participate in a fraudulent election.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Yeah, I understand there are a number of lawyers just waiting for him to get into office, and sign his first executive order.
Gonna be truly ugly unless this is settled.
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 3:49 PM
I should have said “either force to particiapte or forced to be held to the outcome of” instead of “forced to participate in”. Romeo, I guess that’s what you were getting at, but I would leave Honor and souls out of it, though the courts have more than enough cases where emotional trauma is injury.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 3:52 PM
We are in a quagmire of true ugliness. There is nothing else to come of this election and everything surrounding it. It would be nice that we would at least emerge from it having some rules established so we couldn’t slip into this same quagmire in the future.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Ahhh again – because it is ridiculous mishigas based on conjective, lies and garbage.
It’s a waste of logic and conversation.
You are the one assuming the characteristics of The Left, not me or the others here who think it’s a wasteful/wasted/tired arguement.
Again, this arguement is in the genre of the 9/11 Truther rants and ravings. The more Berg and his ilk, like that other guy who Danny Bonaduce confronted, and Alex Jones – talked about it the more they think it is fact that our government was behind 9/11. They believe that if they can keep throwing it up against the wall – it will stick.
The Obama birth certificate arguement the same. You guys refuse to accept what is fact and what isn’t. You are only interested in information that will prove your case, no matter how far fetched that info is.
And had McCain won – KOS would be assuming your current position. Their blogs would be loaded with the same garbage, trying to discredit John McCain’s candidancy.
It’s the same – same – old partisan song and dance we have heard from the otherside since 2000.
Different ballroom, same wingnut/moonbat tango.
Different patient, same nuthouse.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 4:02 PM
For the record, anyone who questioned McCain’s eligibility would have every right to be heard in court and have it resolved. Natural-born status, as far as I’m concerned, cannot be retroactively conferred, or individually assigned, by Congressional legislation.
As to the rest of your post, you might as well have typed random letters. It would have made as much sense.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:07 PM
And McCain’s eligibility is part of the D’Onofrio lawsuit, genius.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Correction: the Keyes suit – which should be heard and ruled on.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:16 PM
OK
I’m glad. He’s entertaining, and well read and intelligent… albeit a nut.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Alan Keyes gets overly animated during discussions of religion or abortion, but he is anything but a nut. He is very well read and very intelligent, as you did point out, somewhat.
In any event, McCain’s eligibility is also questioned in other suits sitting in various state courts, now, if you want to discount the Keyes suit based on the person bringing it (whatever justification you could have for that). I guess you would also dismiss the validity of any side of any suit that the ACLU sits on, seeing how they are truly nuts … Life is going to be pretty tough for you, operating under those intellectual conditions.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Absolutely.
I disagree wholeheartedly with tying up the courts with frivelous lawsuits across the baord.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 4:29 PM
1. There is a Constitutional requirment to be a Naturaly Born Citizen in order to be President.
2. There are writings, by the founding fathers, that state this is so there is no divided loyalty, as engendered by Dual Citizenship.
3. There is no doubt, that legaly, upon birth, Obama was a dual citizen (British American).
4. There is a possiblility that Obama was also granted Indonesian Citizenship when/if he was adopted by Soetoro. As Indonesian citizenship does NOT allow for dual citizenship, the paperwork on this becomes important to decide Obamas citizenship status… as their are conflicting laws and regulations on it. He DID change his name to Soetoro while in Indonesia, and name changes for children normally only follow adoption.
5. The Hospitals in Hawaii have been searched, and they can find no medical records for Obamas birth.
6. Obama has NOT produced any legal documents about birth for any legal authority… only leaked them to a Pro Obama website, even after 12 different lawsuits started. All lawsuits have been fought on the idea of standing… ie… you don’t have the right to even ask that question.
7. During Adoption proceedings, it is not only legal, but normal, to create new Birth certificates with modified information, and SEAL the old records.
8. Obama may have been adopted by Soetoro, and may also have been adopted by his Grandparents, but there WERE at least two name changes.
9. Someone first produced a FAKE certificate of live birth for Obama. There was then a susequent series of photos which show a different document, which could very well be a valid COLB from Hawaii… Hoever, under Hawaii law, a COLB can be granted to someone who is born outside of Hawaii, if one of the Parents was a resident of Hawaii for at least one year prior.
None of this is in dispute… its all been documented… and none of it is “truther” stuff.
Please show me where, anywhere, there is any evidence (besides the COLB, which is suspect for the above reasons), that Obama meets the Natural Born Requirment of the Constitution?
Please point me to anywhere that a Legal Authority, either Court, or a Secretary of State, has looked at the evidence in this?
But hey, don’t worry, I’m just a truther, because you say so…
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 4:33 PM
Er … as stupid and moronic and anti-American as the ACLU is, they do end up on the right side of cases every now and again. You cannot judge the validity of suits by the participants. That is not how our judiciary is supposed to work. You do understand that … don’t you?
And what if you filed a suit and the ACLU filed an amicus brief on your side? Would you drop your own suit?
You have really proposed an argument of intense ignorance.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:33 PM
I like “Proofer”, better :)
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:37 PM
OH, and for the record….
I kinda hope that Obama, and McCain, are both declared ineleigable…
It would be fun to watch the Electoral College try to figure out who to cast votes for… and then it would be up to the House of Reps, who can only vote for one of the top three vote getters….
President Palin and VP Biden???
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 4:39 PM
I like that scenario, but Palin’s secret service detail would have to be quadrupled!
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Of course you would, but it isn’t going to happen.
Keep dreaming that dream….
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Though I do think that McCain is eligible (unfortunately). In either case, the court should gather the relevant documentation on McCain and rule on his eligibility. It is not obvious, one way or another.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Sterling summary of the issues at hand. Thank you.
BTW, it would seem that a sufficient number of people now believe that the Constitution is dead, for it to be so in fact. I wonder if any of these traitors will ever come to miss it?
OldEnglish on December 6, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Yeah, Natural Born needs to be defined. With dual citizenship now being legal, we will have more and more questionable situations happen until it is…
Yeah, just watching the Bailout is prooving that out…
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 5:14 PM
High court unlikely to hear suits about Obama’s citizenship.
In Donofrio’s case, he did not file a full appeal but instead an “emergency stay” motion with two justices. When persistent litigants file motions with more than one justice, the court’s normal practice is to refer the matter to the full court. In Donofrio’s bid for an emergency stay, the court’s computer said it was “Distributed for Conference of December 5.” This routine referral was treated on some blogs as though the justices had agreed to debate or deliberate on the matter.
If the justices think an “emergency stay” raises an important point, they ask the other side to respond. They did not bother to ask for a response to Donofrio’s motion.
We shall see, but I am sure he will be in the Whitehouse come January….
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM
I think that this is the completion of the transformation of the US from a Constitutional Republic into a true Democracy, which will undoubtedly thrill all the idiots who don’t understand what made America the greatest nation ever to have existed. The clock, from here, is probably pretty close to midnight, as mob rule becomes the order of the day:
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 5:24 PM
And that would be the most awful thing to happen the once great United States of America.
OldEnglish on December 6, 2008 at 5:28 PM
Ochlocracy, the end game. The crazy thing is, when it all falls apart, the mob will blame everyone else but themselves, as they are now doing in places where the mob has control.
OldEnglish on December 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
From the man who brought the case….
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Yep… concur…
Whats interesting is that I’ve been talking to my 17 year old son, and his friends, many of whom are in College… and sort of introducing them to the writings of the Founding Fathers… on Liberty… and why a Republic…
It would not suprise me at all if there was a New Sons of Liberty group soon, because the Liberals are now the Man… the Establishment… and they are NOT happy.
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Yes.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 5:53 PM
This is really what your intentions are – to block an election.
So what makes you different from those who felt the election was stolen in 2000?
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Or that the SCOTUS would agree to waste the taxpayer’s dollar and submit to hearing cases from every kook this side of Loonville?
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:16 PM
My “something in the water theory”:
Wasn’t Al Capone from Chicago?
And weren’t Sammy Amalu and Ron Rewald from Hawaii?
I was in Hawaii twice in 2008 and I am not positive but you see which side of these issues I am on.
Honest. Somebody mentioned that the Right Wingnuts got it wrong because of all the people who had to lie to allege seeing The One born in Hawaii. To you lovely Change supporters, who saw him born there?
I never read about, let alone met, anyone who saw him till he was 14 or so in Honolulu. That is the point, nobody saw him down there. The locals are sure on the wagon for him by now. But no witnesses. I don’t know. I just want a long certificate. Even forged.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 6:17 PM
AprilOrit how about Mr. Transparency calling a meeting to put all this to rest?
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 6:18 PM
How about the blind faith shown by the supporters of a guy who had signatures checked and divorce files released to dump opponents? One born every minute!
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 6:21 PM
After Bush, and McCain, and most everyone, have been extolling the virtues of “democracies”, using the word in the most inaccurate and misleading ways, it’s a wonder if many Americans even understand what the US is supposed to be. I’m sure your son and his friends will run into a lot of resistance as they talk about Constitutional Republics and why Democracy is not a stable system.
I don’t mean this to be a Bush bash, since he is certainly not the only one, but he made me cringe everytime he talked about this mistaken idea, kind of like the “religion of peace” thing. I know he meant well, but someone should have spoken to him about this (and McCain, with the League of Democracies thing).
I feel somewhat sorry for the youth of today – even the clueless ones who have been sucked into the lies about how the US was built, and why. But I try to remain optimistic about how we will emerge from this. It will be ugly, I think, but there is opportunity in this chaos and so long as the American spirit remains in a good enough number, there is hope.
However, I fear that there might be too much inertia built up and it might take some other country picking up on the US’ original lead and choosing to adopt the system that made us so great. The Atlas Shrugs scenario, basically.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Well … we wouldn’t want to stop our court system from handling really important issues like a student ticked about being suspended for a week for “Bong hits for Jesus” or anything. There was such serious damage there that it had to be heard in federal court … Sheesh.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 6:28 PM
AprilOrit at 6:09
The difference is the Constitution is on our side.
If Obama is eligible, he should be president. If he’s not, he shouldn’t. It’s that simple.
justincase on December 6, 2008 at 6:28 PM
One can but HOPE!
OldEnglish on December 6, 2008 at 6:32 PM
Agreed, that was ridiculous. There is enough waste that must hapen, such as the case of criminal trials. Like John Mohammed – he was found guilty in MD but still had to be tried in VA.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:38 PM
For what? For which scenerio?
More 2000 but we have switched position?
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Oh, I don’t know… how about our government enforcing their own laws? Especialy the Constitution?
You know, that old rule of law thing.
I mean, come on… they had a Presidential Candiate for the Socialist Party on FIVE State ballots who was born in CENTRAL AMERICAN and ran for Office down there TWICE!
You don’t see anything wrong with that? That the system is hosed? That the courts need to intervene because NO ONE if legaly vetting if these guys meet the Constituional requirment to be President?
Romeo13 on December 6, 2008 at 6:48 PM
Whew. There’s hope for you, yet.
Actually, he got the death penalty first, and further court cases didn’t need to be pursued after that … except that no one believes death penalties will ever actually be carried out. The need to have other prosecutions was only due to our lack of confidence in our institutions – which is a well-founded lack of confidence.
As to Presidential eligibility and tha ability of a voter to be insured a non-fraudulent election process – there are very few cases that are as important as this. Now that citizens and voters have been found to have no standing in these cases, the importance has been increased by orders of magnitude. There are no more important cases, now.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 6:49 PM
I keep forgetting to bring that up, though it is straight, irrefutable evidence that the election processes (certainly in those states for which he was on the ballot) are totally untrustworthy. Thanks for the reminder.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Well I am all for that, but it has been already discussed, hash out and proven that Obama is a Natural borm=n American citizen.
That’s my point – any lawsuit is moot.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Ted Bundy was another one. Wasted human being, waste of the taxpayers money in several states.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 6:54 PM
That is untrue. What is true is that most Americans are satisfied that he is a natural-born citizen – though few of them have any idea what this means. But we aren’t supposed to have a Democracy. We have a Constitutional Republic – at least we did …
Then the ruling should be on the merits, or lack thereof, not on issues of standing. The “lack of standing” rulings are abominations. Even lefty, living document morons tend to agree with this. But they can’t rule on the merits and BHO has refused to answer any of those questions to the courts.
progressoverpeace on December 6, 2008 at 6:57 PM
Two Items:
First, I got a hate e-mail from a follower of the Obamessiah when I made the same remarks to her that I made here.
I admit that I did no investigation but The One was an issue by the time of my second trip. There were people asking questions about him then. Several local publications did mini-biographies. Photos — like those in The Chicago Tribune had no photos of Him coming home from the hospital or first days at all. This was the first grandchild of an only child for that couple. There were baby photos at six months or nine months. The first real stuff was in fourth or fifth grade. This proves nothing, of course.
Second, a friend/colleague of mine said that Republicans and PI’s were down there asking about The One but NO DNC or supporters. Why wouldn’t they look for witnesses to make us look dumber than we do now? I wonder if they vetted him down there?
And I hope that the worthy (who was concerned about this suit before SCOTUS costing money) finds time to check out the Cook County system and the litigation abuse and local insurance costs driving businesses under. Something the Messiah forget to fix before he left.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 7:19 PM
I do not believe any of this.
Pointing to other bad behavior to argue a point will prove nothing.
All of it is a waste of the taxpayers money across all States – all Municipalities.
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 7:24 PM
First, I got a hate e-mail from a follower of the Obamessiah when I made the same remarks to her that I made here.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 7:19 PM
From who – from a HA poster? How did she get your email address?
AprilOrit on December 6, 2008 at 7:26 PM
No not from HA. I use the same stupid remarks everywhere!
Which is why I spend time here. Fewer offended people with weapons and access to me!
Ha Ha Gnite.
IlikedAUH2O on December 6, 2008 at 9:10 PM
One last thought (because sweet Moses, this piece of foolishness needs to die… although I suspect it’ll be right up there with the Kennedy assassination and fluoridated water in the history of conspiracies).
There was never a chance that a certori could be passed for this issue – because, as all good little conservatives know, this is a Republic, not a Democracy. You didn’t vote for President. You voted for a member of the Electoral College. You have no legal standing in this one.
If you really, really want to see Barack Obama magically unelected, I’ll raid the John Birch society for your next move:
So, there ya go. Stop wasting those “thousands of dollars” on the courts – go write your Senator and Congressperson.
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM
Oh, and the link, because it’s polite:
http://www.jbs.org/index.php/us-constitution-blog/4196
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM
So. At the end of all this, have we learned anything about Obama?
Connie on December 7, 2008 at 2:24 AM
Yes, he will be our President in January.
Oh, and the link, because it’s polite:
http://www.jbs.org/index.php/us-constitution-blog/4196
Mal Carne on December 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 2:55 AM
Whoops – meant to write interesting that of all websites – it appears on the John Birch Society. They were the mother of all conspiracists back in the day.
Amazing how even they are calling it for all amd what it is – poppycock and balderdash.
God certainly is amazing, he works in such mysterious ways…
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 2:59 AM
According to Rasmussen only 16% of the public strongly disagree with how Obama is handling himself – for what it’s worth.
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 3:02 AM
Any families in HI that have attended birthday parties for baby Barack in Hawaii, from 1 year old till 13 or 14, please post and provide pictures; we would love to see the rest of his family also. Thanks.
ProudPalinFan on December 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM
Salon just completely trashed anyone who is concerned about The One’s citizenship.
In a Salon.com article by Alex Koppelman, they used some comments that were dangerously close to guilt by association or prior goofy ideas to attack those with doubts. Phil Berg and Jerome Corsi were the major targets. Any notion that there may be a germ of truth in the allegations or that the cases may have merit for other reasons was dismissed out of hand.
Don’t they know that even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion? Have they looked at the intense and unbiased examination and vetting performed on their fave candidate by themselves and their mates? This ‘recruiting seminar’ or ‘graduation party’ relationship that many had with Him sure left the door open for others (other squirrels) to come in and find a lot of nuts. Reverend Wright was one example.
And they did not miss the pronouncement of the State of Hawaii. Remember Hawaii pontificating that he was certainly born there? Would someone also please ask Salon and the rest to identify which Hawaiian official “confirmed in October” that He was born there. It seems that the act was illegal. The act of confirming it. It is also possible that Mr. Koppelman never heard an official say it. Or knows what I am talking about.
BTW, in answer to a post above, it was common practice for hospitals to take photos of newborns in those days. It was also common practice for grandparents to have parties when a newborn comes “home”. Salon should ask for things like this. Come to think of it, why doesn’t someone he likes ask Him for a long form birth certificate or a handling of the other issues? He is too busy? He was the one who said that a president should be able to multi-task, didn’t he?
The real problem is the media. And we find that Berg, Corsi and even Hannity bring this bias out. Their slavish attention to their agenda and passing over areas that they should examine is a bigger problem than the egomaniac who has released a paucity of information or the eccentrics and con men who mine in the gaps.
IlikedAUH2O on December 7, 2008 at 5:56 AM
The Chicago Tribune had photos of The One at early ages but any around one year old in Hawaii would be appreciated. And witnesses at birthday parties? You may shut me up.
IlikedAUH2O on December 7, 2008 at 6:04 AM
I only found people with Him at age at 14 since my investigation was like a tourist at Graceland and augmented with newspaper reading. He surely could have been there sooner than 14. I just never read about it or met anyone. And the number of people who knew the man was increasing even then, it seemed.
I was talking above about witnesses, since some liberal (here in HA) alleged the need for numerous witnesses to pull off a phony Hawaiian birth. I never read an account or saw a photo contemporaneous with His birth and the campaign never offered any witnesses. I shall drop this soon.
IlikedAUH2O on December 7, 2008 at 6:14 AM
Try the Chicago Tribune; photo #4 in the gallery looks like he’s 4 or so. I’m not sure if I can find any 1-year old photos of him online; considering that such photos would probably have belonged to “Toot”, I’m not confident such pictures would be posted.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/070323obama-early-photogallery,0,5458360.photogallery
And look! HIS KENYAN BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!!1!!1!one!
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4918/colmkbtwluu9.gif
Mal Carne on December 7, 2008 at 7:59 AM
Oh, to Mal Carne and the other Hopey Changey fans:
Speaking of witnesses, how about a Bishop’s sworn statement on where the birth took place?
Our media does not quote this! They are too busy quoting Hawaiian officials with comments they never made! That would be illegal if they did! What great farce!
And there is a London Times film of The One working for his cousin Odinga who claimed to be a Christian, allegedly set fire to a church (with people in it) and was in fact a Muslim who planned to implement Islamic Law. The guy has real behavior issues.
I saw The One in a film by the Times/BBC on a dais with a bull horn with Odinga.
And where was this covered? By the British of course! No wonder He won the election.
Bishop Ron McRae’s sworn Affidavits
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/PROJECTS/Obama/Evidence/AFFIDAVIT-Bishop.pdf
Write and let me know if you find any of this to be a hoax.
As the brits say, I would that it were.
IlikedAUH2O on December 7, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Well, of course, if he’s a bishop, he can’t possibly be lying. Church members never lie, do they?
You’ll note that he doesn’t say that Obama is a Muslim, mind you. Just that “it is common knowledge in Kenya that Obama is a Muslim.” It’s also common knowledge in Kenya that a witchdoctor can make your schlong fall off, so…
Mal Carne on December 7, 2008 at 9:42 AM
So after all this talk, after all this chatter, after all this…No one, not even Berg, has come up with one example of literally 10 of millions of births in Hawaii since the 1960’s….millions of possible examples, and all the people claim it can happen, but never an example. It has never been shown to have actually happened…it is a theory, that has never been put into practice. Could it happen, yes, has it happened, no…or at least for the past 50 years it hasn’t.
And you want people to believe, that one person (Obama) is the one person out of millions that it happened to.
No, a judge would say, show me an example that this could happen…show me precedent, the fact is, it is proven that the state has been responsible in reporting everything accurately, since no one has discovered anything different.
You are basing your “facts” on a 10 million to one longshot…sigh, double sigh…
Please, step back and see what you are promoting…a one in 10 million chance that this happened, 40 plus years ago, to someone who would become a president elect…and you are trying to convince people this is the only example.
right2bright on December 7, 2008 at 10:17 AM
LOL, your twisting is amusing…
Yes, a Judge is going to say Go into Sealed Records, for people not involved in the case? When I could just give you ONE order to produce the Single peice of paper being asked for?
And you totaly dismis the Adoption angle.
Just as you totaly dismiss us poor truthers… or as so eloquently coined before… “proofers”.
Once more, what we want is DISCOVERY to happen, so documents can be checked…. please explain what is so horrible about that?
Romeo13 on December 7, 2008 at 11:12 AM
BREAKING NEWS!
David Horowitz agrees with Michelle – From Front Page Mag:
Obama Derangement Syndrome: Conservatives Need to Shut Up About the Birth Certificate. Also more on the subprime myth.
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 11:48 AM
David Horowitz has as well.
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Hi all,
Good morning and because this is kinda of an older thread postings will slow down. But I wanted to express my opinion on trutherism. New term for me.
I will compare it to tic-tac-toe. We are playing X’s and O’s *snort* and canceling each other out, or trying to. I appreciate Mal Carne’s pictures posted, certainly I enjoyed looking at them and get a more in-depth look; I hang out here and in a couple of other sites. Can’t stomach lib sites, sorry. And certainly will not accept photoshopped images to place baby Barack in a Hawaiian background.
right2bright, this is precisely what we are doing here. If it is a precedent or not, the problem that a person can either bypass law or get away with it or whateveryouwanna call it and become Commander In Chief is what brought this matter to light. We had no clue about it riiiiighhttt???
To answer your inquiry, what I am promoting is good old constitutional federal guidelines like it has been clearly established ever since the founding fathers of this good country have done. I was not born here but live here now, some know that I was born and raised in PR, which is a US Territory. Therefore I am American by birth. This entitles me to, I believe, put my thoughts out there and get more involved in US politics.
There is nothing wrong ON BOTH ENDS to ask that justice is served. As the country evolves, there are instances like this that makes us wanna take sides. It is for the best of this country that justice is served; if not well, karma will do its deed.
Obi-Wan Kenobi said that good luck does not exist. I say true, if we are thinking what we are going through right now. This country and all bona-fide Americans surely deserve better than this. Reading about other posts where it was discussed that it would be best if both John McCain and Barack Obama BOTH be declared null as Natural Born’s to have President Palin and VP Biden made me chuckle big time, then I cringed. That would be eye candy for other countries to invade us.
ProudPalinFan on December 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM
I am gonna go out on a limb, be sarcastic and settle this by saying that may the fate of our country lie on a fantasy basketball match between “Barry O’Bomber” and SarahCuda. Now that is a Pay Per View event I would certainly purchase, hunker down at my in-laws house in Pennsylvania where we cling on to guns and religion. He is a what I call a Flexi-Democrat and he bought another one! Unless there is no such thing as a gun-toting Flexi-Dem.
Any gun-toting Flexi-Democrats here? Ed/Allah, let me know also.
ProudPalinFan on December 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM
What is a gun-toting Flexi-Democrat?
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 12:46 PM
He is married to a stauch Dem who loves Hillary to death and is not necessarily drooling over the One. She even thought that he was gonna lose the elections. He is not so diehard into partisan politics as her.
Very bitter that her brother was sent to Vietnam war and her brother came back screwed up; that is why she hates right wingers. Loves me and respects me but when I told her that if McCain won and Sarah became VP, when it came to international adoption law country matters, the family’s intl. adoption agency would go to Sarah for i.e., expedition of adoptions of special needs babies or other affairs, she cringed.
It’s not that she is a Sarah hater, but she has her on target I guess merely because of the party line. Not personally as a woman.
Or, he is married to a staunch Democrat which would make him a by-proxy.
ProudPalinFan on December 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Is this the definition of this Flexi-Democrat you mentioned??
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Yes.
ProudPalinFan on December 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM
So his wife is a PUMA, that’s tragic. They are the looniest of loons. They are the worst.
Unfortunately he is not a Flexi-Democrat, he’s a Flexi-PUMA = Flexi-Loon by marriage.
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Those PUMAs are the most vile smear merchants that started it all – the stories about Obama and the stories about McCain’s birth right not being valid.
I really wish O’Reilly would have gone after them, they deserved it.
AprilOrit on December 7, 2008 at 10:59 PM
Bristol’s fiance told the AP back in October that their baby is due Dec. 18th. That means that she could have the baby at basically any point between now and the beginning of January. I was born over three weeks late, and my mother still gives me a hard time about it. I’m sure that if Bristol’s baby isn’t born on or before Dec. 18th that the Trig Truthers will forget that things like that happen though.
I’m just wondering what the new theory will be after the baby is born. Who are the Truthers going to say was pregnant? Someone else in the family? One of Sarah’s sisters? A niece? A neighbor? Bristol’s baby was premature? Perhaps they’ll come up with an even more sinister theory about buying a baby or something.
I have wondered why Palin hasn’t released her partial medical records to a couple of Alaskan news reporters to kill these rumors. It seems to me that she could quietly invite a reporter from the ADN and one from KTUU or one of the other TV stations to review the pertinent records with a doctor of their choosing. Her doctor could remove any pages that she was worried about being criticized for, or just didn’t want strangers leering at.
However, I can understand that she might not want to do that for any number of reasons (not related to hiding a dark, evil secret). If it was something she was really worried about then she might do what I suggested, but it seems like at this point that there’s no reason to worry about it. In other words, it has no real traction beyond the people who want to believe it anyway, and most of them will never be convinced they are wrong.
My own personal theory is that she doesn’t see the point of releasing her medical records to kill internet rumors. Not that men’s aren’t, but women’s medical records are very personal and detailed (And I feel sure that some juvenile and disgusting people would find Palin’s titillating.). She may also fear being criticized to an even greater extent over choosing to fly home, or of getting her doctor into trouble somehow for her choice to fly home.
Or maybe I’m totally wrong, and Trig isn’t hers and she faked her pregnancy to create some pro-life bona fides. I suppose stranger things have happened. I can’t think of any right now, but maybe they’ll come to me later…
meltenn on December 7, 2008 at 11:48 PM
- Did a fortune-teller place it in the paper knowing he would run for president?
The above is, BAR NONE, the absolute stupidest statement I’ve ever seen generated by MM’s keyboard.
Is she completely ignorant of Hawaii’s birth record laws as they stood in 1961? Does she not realize that a birth that took place anywhere could be legally recorded in Hawaii then, and still be valid, and that this would have been a perfectly innocent sequence of events given Ann Dunham’s circumstances at that time (i.e., no conspiracy required)?
Does she not know that all births recorded in HI – whether they occurred in HI or elsewhere – would be submitted to the Office of Vital Statistics in HI and then likely go on to be listed in the Hon. Advertiser by rote process (i.e., no “fortune-teller” required)?
Is she completely ignorant of the fact that a CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH is not the same as a CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH in Hawaii? Is she also completely ignorant of the fact that the former can be legally amended to read as desired? Is she completely ignorant of the fact that the latter can NOT be legally amended and that THIS is the document BHO has spent almost $1,000,000.00 hiding from the public via three separate law firms? Has it occurred to anyone to wonder why that is?
To date BHO has never demonstrated his eligibility, per Article II, to serve in the Office of POTUS. This is not conspiracy, it is fact. Ignore everything else. This is the point most of us “skeptics” want resolved. No one’s trying to throw over the election or take him down. The definition of Loyal Opposition: we just want the letter of the Constitution honored. BHO has done everything but.
The JPG image BHO has “released” – whether it’s a forgery or not – does not qualify as proof of anything. Read the top of the JPG image BHO has offered as “proof” of his natural born citizenship. What does it say? That’s right. And where is the required attestation from an attending physician? Correct. What politically-correct race is BHO Sr. listed as? In 1961??? I don’t think so.
You people could find the flaws in the TANG documents and you’re falling for THIS!??? And your response? “Ignore the inconsistencies or you’re a ‘Truther’”??
Something stinks to high heaven when people like Malkin, Morrissey, Johnson and others are blithely willing to take BHO’s “word” on his place of birth, when only two months ago he was considered a consummate liar on every other topic – not to mention the serial lies and frauds he perpetrated to win the Democratic primary and the general election.
What exactly is going on here? Is it that hard to listen to someone on Topic A when you disagree with them on Topic B? Or is it something else?
goy on December 8, 2008 at 10:03 AM
These pictures obviously show he was born here, for heaven sake, these Truthers need to get over themselves…LOL.
Thanks Carne for posting, I never saw these.
Truther Madness is the new flu.
AprilOrit on December 8, 2008 at 11:00 AM
What exactly is going on here is that Truther Madness has taken hold and the only respite is more partisan lies and garbage.
The lies and garbage are what stinks to high heaven.
AprilOrit on December 8, 2008 at 11:05 AM
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