Triggerism, Trutherism, and Birtherism
posted at 9:00 am on December 5, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Michelle takes a close look at the conspiracy-theory impulse on the Left, Right, and fringe today in her syndicated column. Whether one thinks that Sarah Palin has to prove her maternity of Trig or that Barack Obama has to produce a witness to his birth in Hawaii or that the 19 al-Qaeda terrorists actually flew commercial jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the real truth is that these conspiracy theories become belief systems based on conjecture and speculation rather than actual facts and evidence:
The plain truth will never mollify a Truther. There’s always a convoluted excuse – some inconsequential discrepancy to seize on, some photographic “evidence” to magnify into a blur of meaningless pixels – that will rationalize irrationality. Palin could produce Trig’s umbilical cord and it still wouldn’t be enough.
Alas, Trutherism thrives on both the left and right. Which brings us to the spate of lawsuits challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship. On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court considers one of those suits filed by New Jersey citizen Leo Donofrio, who maintains that Obama is not a “natural born citizen” because his father held British citizenship.
There may be a seed of a legitimate constitutional issue to explore here (how is the citizenship requirement enforced for presidential candidates, anyway?) And at least Donofrio concedes that Obama was born in Hawaii. But a dangerously large segment of the birth certificate hunters have lurched into rabid Truther territory. The most prominent crusader against Obama’s American citizenship claim, lawyer Philip Berg (who, not coincidentally, is also a prominent 9/11 Truther), disputes that Obama was born in Hawaii and claims that Obama’s paternal grandmother told him she saw Obama born in Kenya.
Berg and his supporters further assert that the “Certification of Live Birth” produced by Obama was altered or forged. They claim that the contemporaneous birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper of Obama’s birth is insufficient evidence that he was born there. (Did a fortune-teller place it in the paper knowing he would run for president?). And they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being part and parcel of the grand plan to install Emperor Obama and usurp the rule of law.
I believe Trig was born to Sarah Palin. I believe Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on U.S. soil. I believe fire can melt steel and that bin Laden’s jihadi crew – not Bush and Cheney – perpetrated mass murder on 9/11. What kind of kooky conspiracist does that make me?
Just read the comments section, Michelle, and you’ll soon find out. (The column is also at NRO in shorter form.)
Update: Case in point, as e-mailed to me by Allahpundit. Everyone else’s conspiracy theories are kooky, except for Andrew’s. Andrew claims that no documentary evidence exists of Palin’s pregnancy, but that overlooks this report from her doctor:
The letter, dated Nov. 3, is from Dr. Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who works at the Providence Health and Services Alaska clinic in Anchorage.
Ms. Palin, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson wrote, has been a patient at the clinic since 1991. She said Ms. Palin’s visits “have been related to routine women’s health care and pregnancy.”
Ms. Palin gave birth to her five children in 1989, 1990, 1994, 2000 and 2008. Regarding the birth of her fifth child, Trig, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson said Ms. Palin had “no risk factors other than her age.”
Don’t stop believin’, Andrew!
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Even if Obama is not a natural born citizen, we should just accept the fact that nothing will happen to him over it. He’s more special and more important to the country and the world than all of us combined. So, let’s all just shut up about it, or else our betters will shout us down and equate us with insane people who denigrate a Down’s Syndrome infant who’s not running for POTUS or insult the horrific deaths of nearly 3,000 victims on 9/11. Know your place, or else.
/
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Well said, Alana.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Link please…that would be a god one…
I doubt any Jew would be a Mason (not that there are any Jews in Hollywood), seeing as you have to be a Christian to be a Mason…and do you know what a Mason is?
This, you little BC truthers, is the type of person, like Berg, that you are thinking like…now that will give you pause as to how credible your “search for the truth” is…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 1:05 PM
I’m getting really tired of the media (and now Michelle Malkin) acting as if everyone concerned about Obama’s “natural born citizenship” status is a kook. I don’t know where Obama was born, but suspect it was in Hawaii, and he has some other reason that he does not want to disclose his original long-form birth certificate.
However, he should be required to produce the original birth certificate and prove his place of birth. It would be different if some hospital in Hawaii would acknowledge he was born there, or anyone with first hand knowledge of his birth would speak up. Why doesn’t he authorize the hospital in which he was born to acknowledge his birth? He could do that. They could put up a plaque or something. Goodness, with all the publicity this has gotten, don’t you think it’s strange there’s not an elderly nurse or family member who can speak up and say, I remember when he was born, it was in Honolulu? As far as I know, none of that has happened. I think it sets a bad precedent to allow a candidate (now, president-elect) to skate on this issue. It should be something that is resolve before they ever get on the ballot.
That said, I find the Donofrio case to be very interesting from a legal standpoint. It has nothing to do with where Obama was born, but asks the Supreme Court to address 2 important issues: 1) the legal definition of “natural born citizen;” and 2) the fact that we have no procedure in place in this country to ensure that only eligible candidates are placed on the presidential election ballot.
There has always been uncertainty regarding the meaning of “natural born citizen” as used in the Constitution. It was not a term of art at the time the Constitution was drafted, and was not historically considered synonymous to “native born.” Donofrio contends we should look to the intent of the original framers to define it. It’s an interesting argument, basically that anyone born of a non-citizen father, who obtains dual citizenship at birth, does not qualify as a “natural born citizen.” I for one would like the Supreme Court to clarify the definition of natural born citizen, to prevent any future uncertainty.
As to the second issue, the fact that Roger Calero, a man born in Nicaragua to foreign parents, was on the presidential election ballot in 5 states is unbelievable. The fact that our country has no system in place to prevent things like that is inexcusable. Donofrio asks the Supreme Court to direct the Secretary of State to ensure eligibility of candidates placed on the ballot, and I would like to see a ruling on that issue. SO STOP CALLING ME A KOOK. And it would be nice to see some responsible reporting on this issue.
mbs on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Nicely said, mbs!
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:08 PM
MM, this is backfiring on you.
Blame this on Hillary, not your own readers.
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 1:10 PM
I clicked on the link to some wacko Trig Truther blog that Michelle linked to in her article, and some of these wackos seem interested in crashing Governor Palin’s Juneau Holiday Open House. I sure hope her security detail realizes that her increased prominence makes her a target for nutjobs.
ramrocks on December 5, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Evidently you do not.
All 33rd degree masons are members of an occult group called the illuminati.
Lower level masons have no idea about this.
Total BS.
You have to believe in a god or gods.
Christians do not practice satanic rituals like you have to do in order to become a 33rd degree mason.
“Christians” do not worship Baal and Druid gods.
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I agree, and I say that as someone for whom this thing is of only moderate interest (for the reasons stated earlier).
Remember, MM is the one who was lambasting the RNC for spending “too much” money on Palin’s wardrobe, so I think sometimes her focus is… misplaced. Irrespective of the outcome, it’s certainly ok for Alan Keyes and the others to file lawsuits. The GOP leaders have not stuck their necks out about this issue, so they are not hurting the party.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Well said… at this point, I almost look at being called a “truther” on this subject as a badge of honor…
Its the EXACT same tactic used to stymie the opposition as playing the RACIST card, or the BIGOT card, or the Homophobe Card…. or the “HATER” card…
Now, we have the “Truther” card… but this once is played by the Right…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 1:13 PM
When wanting to follow the Constitution is “extreme” the country is in deep, deep doo-doo.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Ed, you forgot the first rule. When you’re in a hole, put down the shovel and pick up a copy of “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”
What this thread is all about is very simply the fact that you’re kicking yourself for putting up yesterday’s thread, which, sadly, was not obligatory at all.
If you don’t believe something or don’t want to be associated with it, don’t write about it in the first place. It really is that simple.
Connie on December 5, 2008 at 1:15 PM
I bet folks who believe we’re a nation of laws and not a nation of men also believe in Truther Claus.
/
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 1:17 PM
mbs,
Some of the warning signs of a cult:
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful disclosure such as an independently audited financial statement
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
econavenger on December 5, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Masons and “illuminati” are not the same.
Now where are the links that “all” are 33degree Masons?
You always seem to miss the important question…that you never seem to answer.
You make an accusation, a false accusation, then you won’t back it up…how does your church feel about false accusations?
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Make sure you write “Obama” after “From:” on the tags you put on the wee ones’ gifts this year. Why shatter the little Truthers’ imaginations all at once.
/
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Here is a partial list of 33rd degree masons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjxCNLlDVG4
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 1:27 PM
I am Jewish and I know several jews who are Freemasons, there is NO sectarian requirement, you just need to believe in a Supreme Being.
Squid Shark on December 5, 2008 at 1:28 PM
Triggerism, Trutherism, and
BirthBircherism/FIFY, Ed
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 1:32 PM
blue sky on December 5, 2008 at 1:32 PM
+1. Did you follow the link on Jack’s blog to the original source site (it’s also where Excitable Andy got his info from)?
meltenn on December 5, 2008 at 1:33 PM
One of these things is not like the others. That should be intuitively obvious to the careful observer.
JimK on December 5, 2008 at 1:37 PM
actually, just blindly following a leader that is a known cult leader would also apply.
Like following a guy like Berg, an avowed 9/11 truther…that is what he deals in.
Also, when given reasonable facts, the cultist ignores them…and when questions are answered they continuously come up with new questions…they never have a resolution.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Why did Obama post a COLB that has a 2008 border and a 2007 seal?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I think “Proofer” is a great term for the person attacking the “Birther.”
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 1:43 PM
For an intelligent non-partisan (or multi-partisan) discussion of the issue, I have found texas darlin’s blog to be one of the very best.
For an overview of the cases go here to review the list which is updated only to 12/4/08.
blue sky on December 5, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Why did Obama post a COLB that has a 2008 border and a 2007 seal?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Right2Bright is above answering that. And I like how he attempts to turn around the cult charge onto anyone questioning his point of view.
allahallahoxenfree on December 5, 2008 at 1:45 PM
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 1:48 PM
What about Jackie Mason? Huh? Huh?
The big problem with you, right2bright, is a mild case of Malkin’s Disease, a condition in which anyone who doesn’t simply shut up and do things your way makes you break out in a high fever and froth at the mouth.
You (that would be both of you, plus a few others) cannot seem to understand that many of those questioning Osama Obama on this and other issues are most concerned that he chooses not to take the most logical step if everything’s kosher, and release the relevant documents.
There’s no trooferism or conspiracy mania involved. It’s the same reaction a cop might have if he asks for your driver’s license and you say “no! Talk to my lawyer!”
It’s so damn simple, and yet it really bugs you self-appointed arbiters of acceptable conservative behavior.
Hmmmm…wonder if there’s a deep, dark conspiracy behind you?
MrScribbler on December 5, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Carefull, you’ll get called a truther…
It appears there were two different documents posted, one with is fraudulent… then some pictures later that may very well be from a real document…
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/obamas_birth_certifcate_forgery/
Has some intersting info… if its all accurate.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 1:55 PM
I did post proof.
Bill Clinton was also a 33rd degree mason. So is George Soros.
In an interview in 1994 Bill Clinton said that he’d known about the “Shadow-government” already in his youth, and had been very enthusiastic to get an entrance into the “Inner Circle” and from there have the opportunity to participate in decisions regarding the future of the world.
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 1:57 PM
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 1:57 PM
ok then.
allahallahoxenfree on December 5, 2008 at 2:02 PM
I’m of the opinion that Obama is a natural born citizen, but I think there is enough question about it that he should have to provide proof via an impartial and neutral witness — such as a judge or court. That Obama has gone to such great lengths to keep is birth and college records secret really bothers me.
It also bothers me that he might be so willing to flout the Constitution he’ll be sworn to “preserve, protect, and defend”. If that makes me a kook, so be it. He could settle this so easily and honorably by producing the records, why doesn’t he?
I wish more emphasis would be put on his suppressed college records and what they might reveal. If he sought foreign aid or took advantage of affirmative action as an Indonesian named Barry Soetoro, that would certainly explain his reluctance to release those records.
We know he was Barry Soetoro from about age 5 until at least his early 20s. I’d like to know how and when he made the switch back to Barack Hussein Obama — or if he maintained both identities and citizenships and never made either formal. Would that be legal?
If there’s nothing to cover up, why the cover-up? And if he were a Republican, would the MSM be treating this story the same way?
starboardhelm on December 5, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Fortunately, a crack team of experts has identified the correct method for identifying and deprogramming Masons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHnjwSMyIQ
Mal Carne on December 5, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Psychology 101: Don’t mess with someone’s belief system unless you have something positive to replace it with that they can accept. If you fail to do that they may turn out real weird and do some terrible things. That is why in the last century we had Nazis and Communists….
DL13 on December 5, 2008 at 2:06 PM
Yes, that is absolutely true. But, here’s where we diverge.
I’m not a lawyer like Flyfisher, so for the Donofrio case, to my simplistic thought process, if Obama was born in Hawaii, that should trump the fact that he has a Kenyan father. As such, he and his lawyers should want to submit the long form birth certificate as proof that he was born on US Soil to strengthen this.
The fact that he has only done this in a very guarded, extremely limited fashion, is wierd at best and suspicious at worst. Particularly in light of the extreme expense that has been incurred to pay lawyers to argue that these citizens lack the constitutional standing to ask the question. Add in that associates are arguing to have the natural born citizen clause removed in journals, this paints a very weird picture.
I would be completely satisfied if he would submit whatever is requested in discovery, and relieved if he is eligible.
Now, slamming those of us who do not agree with Berg’s truther 9/11 BS, but completely support his right to ASK A QUESTION is wrong. Just because someone believes one faulty assumption, does that eliminate their ability to ask a different question?
The answer should be NO. Here’s a helpful searching exercise, look up Benjamin Franklin and Positive current Flow. Fundamentally wrong, but it didn’t matter, or eliminate his ability to provide some worthwhile contributions to science.
Marine_Bio on December 5, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Here’s the company you keep, from the same user you linked re:Masons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcIUZvC7ngY
You a fan of McKinney too?
SouthernDem on December 5, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Gotta love the sadly obligatory Proofers. Will they ever knock it off?
/
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Here’s a timeline of the various citizenship statutes, and their requirements for native-born standing. Current law is 5 years, 2 of which occur after reaching age of 14.
The reason I am quoting current law is that Obama has the benefit of the envelope of current law and previous law as of the time he was born, and, as you have pointed out, the previous law is somewhat more restrictive. If the previous law were less restrictive, then Obama could claim benefit of the previous law under the Constitution’s prohibition against ex-post-facto law. If the previous law was more restrictive, then Obama can claim the benefit of the current law (or later ones if to his benefit) as of the date a challenge is lodged. It’s the defendant in a case that gets these choices, not the plaintiff.
By the way, Obama’s mother Ann moved overseas to Indonesia in 1967; since she was born in 1941, she obviously met the standard for giving Barack Hussein Obama II natural-born citizenship under both the law in effect in 1961 (reside 10 years in the United States, 5 of which are after the age of 16) and the current law (reside 5 years in the United States, 2 of which are after the age of 14).
unclesmrgol on December 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM
You can call me names like “proofers” or “birthers.”
You can say it is ridiculous for anyone to expect to see the same long-form birth certificate that other presidental candidates have presented, as evidence of eligibility for the presidency.
Mock all you want. It won’t change my mind. This is a simple requirement, and Obama’s refusal to comply as other candidates have is ridiculous.
Anyone who thinks that it is just fine are the people who are strange, in my opinion.
I think one of the problems with the Internet (and one reason why people are so quick to call names) is that it is so easy to imagine whatever you want about the people on the other side of an argument.
You can imagine, as the hosts of this blog have, that it is a bunch of screwy fringe weirdos. Having erroneously decided that, they go on to conclude that whatever that whatever they are asking must be similarly wacko.
But – guess what. We are not weirdos. You can’t name anything in the world that I have had any sort of strange theory about, ever. What you seem incapable of believing is that I’m a highly educated, very mainstream person who wasn’t born yesterday, and so are a lot of other people you decide to declare “birthers” or some other silly internet meme because we want to see these papers.
And because we have a legitimate request, as long as it is overlooked, distrust will remain. I really don’t trust anyone who goes to great lengths to hide his birth certificate and other documents, and there is no amount of name-calling that can erase common sense from my psyche.
My guess is that this thing will not only hold on, but will grow, as more and more common-sense, educated, and mainstream people ask themselves: Why won’t he reveal these essential documents?
If you ask me, the weirdos are the ones who have to construct a fantastical bogeyman stereotype about ordinary people asking this very sensible question.
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Um, no… because at the time, he would not have been granted US citizenship at all.
She was 18 when Barrak was born, there is no way she met the legal requirment to have lived in the US, for FIVE years after her 14th birthday….
And the 1968 law specifily stated that it did not retroactivly give more people citizenship… he would have only gotten it under the prior statute.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 2:38 PM
From you own link.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 2:40 PM
LOL, which I just realized, is wrong…
Its 5 years after the age of 14…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Who said that?
The same guy who said there was only one fold, but the photos showed two?
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 2:42 PM
As has been pointed out… there were TWO different documents produced… the first had all the problems… so pictures were then produced of a second Doc…. which did not have the same issues and could very well be a valid COLB from Hawaii.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Tangental: Constitutional question similar to one raised far above:
My daughter was born in Japan, to a US citizen (me, father) and a Chinese citizen (wife/mother, now US citizen). Japan does not grant citizenship simply because a person was born there, so she was never a Japanese citizen. She got her US consular record of birth and passport a week or so later. Since she was not a citizen of any country before the USA, is she a naturally born citizen of the US?
DarkCurrent on December 5, 2008 at 2:51 PM
But they have been answered…now you and the others may not like the answer…truthers haven’t liked any 9/11 answers, JFK weirdos don’t like the answer, atheists don’t like the Answer, anyone with an agenda doesn’t like the answer.
The first problem with Obama certificate was…there was no seal, no number, no signature, that was a big deal…then it was answered…the next big deal was only one fold, no there were two, then the signature ink wasn’t the right kind according to one “expert”, then the border is different…Hey my wife’s border on her BC is different then mine, from the same hospital, same year, ours doesn’t look anything similar…then his father should have said Negro or Negroid, until it was pointed out that they write what the father says, and he said apparently African, hardly a revelation that someone from Africa would call themselves “African”…if they brought out the original, someone would say it wasn’t the right paper, the watermark (oh yeah, they said there was no watermark, then they were shown it was, plain as day), or whatever…”They had time to make a fake, that’s why they took so long to produce it” would be the cry…whatever question is answered a new one will take it’s place…as been shown.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 2:54 PM
That’s right, so they had to create a whole new set of questions…you explained it exactly.
They resolved all the questions, and so they had to hatch a new batch (I’m a poet).
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 2:55 PM
The top of the fold headline in my local paper today:
Fort Ann man’s Obama ads cause stir
Connie on December 5, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Wow, after a quick search, its really messed up…
Under PRC law, your child is a PRC citizen, even if born abroad, and even if your wife was from Taiwan… as they still think they own it…
So, at birth, your child was born outside the US (one possible definition of Natural born), and may have been a dual US/PRC Citizen… so the case before the Supremes about dual citizenship and the Presidency could be important, is your kid plans on running for President someday.
Its all going to come down to what the Supremes say is the definition of “Natural Born”.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Sigh, and has been pointed out so many times, the document produced does NOT proove where he was born.
That a bogus document was first produced, does not answer the underlieing issue.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 3:09 PM
The one that was posted and found to be fraudulent was not the same one as was photographed. Evidence of fraud followed by the cover-up of fraud.
The one that was photographed wasn’t photographed closely enough to examine its authenticity, if I remember correctly. It was seen for 6 minutes by a friendly photographer and since then nobody outside the Obama campaign has been allowed to see it even though they say it’s right there in the Chicago campaign office.
Regarding the different borders, what you and your wife got from the hospital is irrelevant. The COLB was a computer print-out from the Hawaii office of records containing the same info as the original COLB on file has. To prevent document fraud, the borders and the seals were changed yearly so that any one year would have only one combination of border and seal. Obama’s posted COLB doesn’t have the right combination for either 2007 or 2008.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM
This isn’t some trutherism like the 9/11 BS. This has a ripple effect that is very difficult to realize if you can’t back up and look at it objectively. At this point, even if he doesn’t submit the documents, it has an international consequence, that sets his presidency up for an epic failure.
Look at this article in Pravda.
The closing statement says it all….
Marine_Bio on December 5, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Should have said “above the fold top headline.”
NBD. It’s dangerous to post while shopping. I see there’s a new lawsuit from a group of people in Washington state. How many more, I wonder.
Connie on December 5, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Romeo at 3:07 I think the judge in US v Rhodes said that one owes allegiance to the land where they were born unless they are the child of a US ambassador serving abroad at the time. Legal citizenship isn’t the only measure of loyalty owed – but birth place also is.
So if someone is born on foreign soil they may be a US citizen at birth through their parent, but would still also owe allegiance to the country which protected them at birth.
But like you said, it depends on what the SCOTUS factors in. Which is why we need the SCOTUS to hear this case in full.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 3:19 PM
But they have been answered…now you and the others may not like the answer…truthers haven’t liked any 9/11 answers,
Right2Bright, what has been answered is the short-form birth certificate, which has been proffered.
What hasn’t been answered is the long-form birth certificate. For many reasons (not necessarily the “forged” accusations, which I don’t particularly buy, just as you don’t), the short form is insufficient.
Since the other candidates provided a long-form, this remains an issue with me.
Can you give any valid reason why it shouldn’t be produced?
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Thanks R.
I better keep the
part under wraps because she hates China and be dangerously distraugth if she thought that was a possibility.
I failed to mention, she also spent about 1.5 years in PRC with a non-citizen visa. That would seem to imply she wasn’t a PRC citizen.
Last year she decided to ‘run away’ to Germany as an exchange student.
Now she’s right of Palin, born in Japan and lived for extended periods in China and Germany, in addition to having visited a good number of other countries. If the question can be resolved, maybe an unbeatable GOP candidate for 2030.
DarkCurrent on December 5, 2008 at 3:25 PM
LOL, now the Obama Troofers are posting articles from Pravda?
Brainster on December 5, 2008 at 3:29 PM
Yeah, one of the really interesting things I’m finding out on the citizenship front, is that NO ONE really knows whats going on. Its such of mish mash of different countries laws and precedents, that its crazy… each country decides on its own laws, and they can conflict at times.
Unless your daughter knew she could be a PRC Cit, and said somthing, they would not know to even ask… and no one does any paperwork until someone asks for somthing needing citizenship.
Kinda like Barrak and the British citizen thing… until people started looking at it I bet it never crossed his mind. Its pretty esoteric, and depends on dates, and when laws took effect…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 3:32 PM
He is a constitutional law professor
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 3:37 PM
That’s not really accurate. I have no idea whether the Certification of Live Birth posted on the factcheck website is valid or not, but I don’t think it matters. A candidate for President should be required to produce his original birth certificate to some one authorized to verify his eligibility, not a website run by an organization the candidate previously worked for.
Also, apparently a certification of live birth can be issued in Hawaii when a foreign birth is registered, under certain circumstances. The original certificate of live birth is better evidence of actual place of birth. Better evidence would also include an acknowledgement from the hospital he was born in, some statement from someone who actually remembers him being born in Honolulu, there are lots of things that might suffice. Factcheck.org is not one of them, imo. I don’t think that makes me unreasonable.
mbs on December 5, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Well, it states he was born in Honolulu, I am presuming Hawaii, but it could have been Honolulu, Kenya…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 3:41 PM
It would be nice to see a Hawaii COLB from a foreign born person in order to see what city/county is on it.
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 3:44 PM
LMFAO Olaf.. now this is comedy gold. First off Masons are not worshipping anything else. Stop reading those TRASH books about Christianity FFS! ALL Mason’s are of Christian and JEWISH Denomination. Mason’s are also a Man’s club. And for a Female to be part OF the Mason’s, you must be MARRIED to a Mason… as they will not take someone whom is NOT married. They are called Eastern Stars. FYI there Olaf… Masons and Eastern Stars are a HUGE contributor to Childrens funds (for children with cancer and disease that are needing a cure)and to our Beloved Soldiers and Marines.
Second.. Masons also “branched” (which is totally NOT the appropriate word) into the Shriners. Do you know what Shriners do????
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Some guy on youtube said it has some problems…that’s the whole story, that is what most everyone is basing their belief on…a guy made a video on youtube, and the President-elect is supposed to respond to him…a guy on youtube.
I think I will wait for a better source…and no, not Berg.
The 5 “problems” that Romeo talked about yesterday was what?
The 5 problems that a guy on youtube pointed out…and at least was shown to be wrong, this is an “expert” who can’t tell if a page is folded once or twice…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Faraway at 3:37
See http://countryfirst.bravehost.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=617
In early 2006 Obama’s people were investigating the issue of getting rid of the “natural born citizen” requirement.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 3:47 PM
She’s going to love that. She can hit “kote! men! do!” pretty well but can’t say or understand “nihon-jin desu”. What do you tell a kid?
DarkCurrent on December 5, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Thanks, I don’t know anything about Mason’s…just that they aren’t immunit or whatever saintolaf claimed…and that “not everyone in power” is one…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Yep…. I’d also like to see what they can change on the COB through the adoption process.
There is anecdotal evidence of even dates of birth being changed during adoption proceedings… not saying that happened here, but it makes these documents suspect.
Really funny part is that in Barrys book, he finds an old birth certificate when he is a teenager… but this COLB is dated 2007….
It may be genuine and correct.
It may have been given to someone born outside the country.
It could have been modified during TWO potential adoption proceedings (Soetoro and Grandparents?).
And can even be modified by REQUEST, if you are an adoptee, and your parents are now deceased.
Without a paper trail, this document certainly will be impeached in a Court of Law… which is where this needs to adjudacted.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 3:53 PM
I told you, the short form doesn’t have as much information as the long form, and there is the possibility of tampering, however unlikely.
The long form has more information on it, such as the hospital, and the doctor/midwife in charge.
For myself, I’m inclined to believe the short form is accurate regarding his place of birth being in Hawaii. Moreover, on his document for entry to school in Indonesia, his place of birth is noted as “Honolulu” by his mother or father who filled out the application, years ago, which serves as further evidence for me that he was born in Hawaii.
And as has been discussed earlier, the place of birth isn’t necessarily the only issue. He could have been born in Honolulu and still ineligible for presidency due to other factors.
Nonetheless, I want to see that long form. (Or have a court see it and rule it as legitimate.) Not read a copy of the short form on the internet somewhere and call it a day.
I ask you again: Is there any valid reason for Obama not to provide this?
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Wear funny hats, and coolio scimitars, and drive gokarts in Parades?
(I know about what they really do, but had to be a smart a$$)
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Yeah, because he was sent what is accepted, and he doesn’t feel like taking the time to appease a few nuts.
What he had, a certificate of birth, showing the location, the date, it was embossed, signed, and it was even folded twice…that’s all that is needed except for about 2 dozen wack jobs…
Many people, do not have their original birth certificate…I have two, one a copy and one that was given to my parents, but that was a copy. The original resides in some dark crevasse in Los Angeles County; and another that I requested for my passport and I couldn’t find the original with the feet prints…the copy didn’t have feet print, which would have caused the birthers a fit.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Sarah Herlihy worked for the law firm of Bruce Ettelson, one of Sen. Obama’s finance committee members. She published an article on Feb 22, 2006 regarding how stupid the “natural born citizen” requirement is. In October of 2006 Obama acknowledged that he had been considering a run for president.
Just a little bit about the timing there, related to http://countryfirst.bravehost.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=617
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 3:58 PM
So instead he spends hundreds of thousands of dollars, on cases going all the way to the Supreme Court?
When he was recently in Hawaii TWICE himself, and could have easily gotten one of those Lawyers to get a Vault Copy?
Just simple economics would be an excellent reason for him to produce his Long Form.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 4:01 PM
**sniff, sniff**
I smell a Mason in the works. :)
No I am not a Mason… but they are great and silent contributors to the world.
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 4:01 PM
If she thought she could possibly be considered a PRC citizen due to these circumstnaces I think I’d be dead already (at her hand).
DarkCurrent on December 5, 2008 at 4:02 PM
right2bright, if Obama can’t be bothered to spend $10 to clear up the doubts of any of his constituents but WOULD spend the time and money to hire lawyers, he’s either a pompous ass or a money-guzzling moron.
Which say you?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Shhhhh…. lets just say both my Sisters were part of Jobs Daughters…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 4:03 PM
I know NOTING! **whistles**
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 4:04 PM
No, as you well know the case before the supreme court has nothing to do with his birth certificate…good try though.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Hate to break it to you, but Berg’s case, as much of an idiot as he is, is not dead. Keyes case is still alive as well.
I would just like to get a court to put this to rest. I would like discovery to happen, and documents to be analyzed by experts… you know, that whole court thing, instead of the case being dismissed by a bunch of pundits looking a photoshopped stuff on the internet.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 4:12 PM
It could have to do with his birth certificate – if the SCOTUS agrees that BO’s eligibility must be verified but doesn’t agree that he was a dual citizen. Then all the stuff in the Berg case would be relevant.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Gee, you gave me a choice…let me see, only two options in the world….let me see…yeah, I think he still beats his wife.
This is how it works…he says to his attorney, get my certificate of birth…Attorney, okay sign here for the Power of Attorney, thanks…then he never speaks to the attorney again…
The attorney, being an attorney says “This is all that is needed, you are not getting anything more”, and Obama follows the advice of his attorney. You don’t run your own business do you…if more is needed, and really needed by the courts, they will get it…meanwhile, get it through your head…they think of you a nut cases, like the guy who just tried to sue Cheney and Bush, you mean nothing to them. That is why Bush never answered the 9/11 truthers, he didn’t provide them with his itenerary, they were asking all kinds of stuff from him and the pentagon…Bush ignored the nuts, like Obama will ignore you. Berg is a nut, youtube expert is a nobody…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM
You don’t need a court, you have already determined, from a youtube video, that he is guilty.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Only one small problem in your scenario… Obama IS AN ATTORNEY. In fact, he once lectured on Constituitional Law. And he did not hire ONE attorney, but now has THREE Law Firms on this, at the cost of Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Not so, but you, from a few photos, have determined that he meets the Constituional requirement.
I have not accused him of breaking the law, but just like any good business man looking at a prospective employee, I’m going to look at his documentation to ensure he is qualified for the job.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 4:19 PM
I find it very sad to see this mason garbage and the Trig’s birth fantasies threaded through out the story about Obama’s birth certificate. Why? Because the first two are just hyperbole and the third is a Constitutional question.
To whom Trig was born (which of course is Sarah Palin) is not of pressing interest to US Citizens since Palin is not about to be sworn in as POTUS. Who is and isn’t a mason and what the masons do and don’t stand for also has no public interest as a constitutional question.
However, Americans should have the right to always be assured that the founding document of this nation is being upheld.
The fact that an American citizen has no standing to assure that someone running as a presidential candidate actually meets the requirements should shock citizens. The fact that it is possible for a candidate to get on the ballot as a presidential candidate or be sworn into the US Senate without proof of citizenship should also be shocking.
And now, the fact that a person willing an election as POTUS still believes that the people of the US do not have a right to be assured that he meets all constitutional requirements should loudly speak for what that person believes about our Constitution.
Land of the Free? But not free enough to even know that the Constitution is upheld?
katablog.com on December 5, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Seems like there is a difference betwen Sullivan’s Trigism and those who question whether Obama is a natural citizen. It doesn’t matter who Trig’s natural mother is but it should matter if Obama meets the Constitutional requirement to become President.
katiejane on December 5, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Right2bright at 4:14
Another problem is that it would have taken the same amount of time to just sign a release for the vault certificate and hand it to the lawyer.
If you can be a snot or not with the same effort, why choose to be a snot?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 4:31 PM
I think Alan Keyes sums up the importance of sticking to the constitutional requirements in his current article: “If Barack Obama is allowed to assume the office of president without positively establishing his eligibility under the Constitution, it will set a precedent for exempting the allocation of executive power from constitutional restrictions on the pretext that majority support overrules constitutional authority, popularity supersedes the fundamental law. Obviously, this is a recipe for the establishment of democratic dictatorship, like that which characterized the revolutionary first republic in France and licensed its murderous excesses.”
marti124 on December 5, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Romeo at 4:19
ACtually it does look, even now, like he is at least guilty of document fraud – even just because we know the folds are different between the two documents he’s put out there as being his own (the scanned one and the photographed one).
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 4:33 PM
Is that even a real live baby in the pic w/Gov Sarah and Todd? I have my doubts.
Sincerely,
Andrew Sullivan
Mike D. on December 5, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Many owners of businesses and others are attorneys, they don’t handle the legal work, they hire that to be done…most companies worth tens of millions of dollars have law firms on retainer.
That is how the business world works, you can be a CPA, run a company, that doesn’t mean you do the books.
How old are you?
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Yeah, because he was sent what is accepted, and he doesn’t feel like taking the time to appease a few nuts.
What he had, a certificate of birth, showing the location, the date, it was embossed, signed, and it was even folded twice…that’s all that is needed except for about 2 dozen wack jobs…
Many people, do not have their original birth certificate…I have two, one a copy and one that was given to my parents, but that was a copy. The original resides in some dark crevasse in Los Angeles County; and another that I requested for my passport and I couldn’t find the original with the feet prints…the copy didn’t have feet print, which would have caused the birthers a fit.
Hawaii has his original long-form birth certificate. As I understand it, they can release it only to him or close relatives who have good reason to request it. He refuses to release it.
He has, in fact, gone to great lengths not to release either this, or other documents of interest, that other candidates have, when asked.
What valid reason would he have not to release this long-form certificate? Or even just make it available to a judge during these many cases who could validate it and its contents as legitimate for eligibility to the presidency?
The answer that he “doesn’t feel like taking the time to appease a few nuts” assumes that there are only a few people interested in this, and that they are all nuts.
It also smacks of, “Because I don’t have to.” Which is not exactly behavior one wants from a president.
Instead, he feels like taking the time – and money – to go to lengths to prevent these and other documents from ever being seen.
Don’t you think it would be better if he would go ahead and release this and other documents, instead of being stubborn?
Wouldn’t the country be better off for it? That way, people like me wouldn’t have this distrust regarding these things.
Surely distrust at the get-go isn’t something a president would want to foster?
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Over half of the US Presidents have some Irish ancestry. Ireland currently allows people with at least one Irish-born grandparent or parent to become Irish citizens.
Has any checked whether one of the earlier US Presidents may also have been an Irish citizen at birth because of this?
jim m on December 5, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Absolutely.
Heck, I think it’s a long shot (establishing that Lightworker does not meet the constitutional requirements to be president), but to compare the two issues is pretty sloppy reasoning. I’m not sure what MM gains from insulting a sizable fraction of her readers, but whatever. I don’t traffic her site as much as I once did anyway.
And in terms of 9/11 truthers, there have been detailed scientific studies done of the WTC collapse which support the conclusion that the towers fell as a result of the planes’ impact, not by controlled demolition. In contrast, I am not aware of any analysis of equivalent rigor that has been applied to Lightworker’s eligibility. There really hasn’t been the sort of compelling evidence provided to even mildly skeptical minds. When you couple that with how frequently O! and his handlers mislead people, it is only natural to wonder if he really is hiding something.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Jim at 4:41 To BECOME Irish citizens, or are they considered Irish citizens automatically at birth?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Posts like this make me angry, you know why?
Obama has not provided us with a BC yet, and I’m somehow insane for thinking that is important.
1) A COLB is not the same as a BC and Hawaii will issue a COLB to anyone even if they are born OUTSIDE the U.S.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/newbirthcert.html
2) Hawaii officals state they have the document but nothing in the statement indicates if he was born in the US or not.
“Fukino said she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.
“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,”
So if demanding the rule of law be followed makes me a turther then I guess sign me up. I had to provide a BC for my last two jobs before being hired, I hold Obama to the same standard.
gdonovan on December 5, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Ok, that’s hit…this has reached a new low…
BTW, my birth certificate, which is a copy has no folds, none, looks like I am a forgerer…
You guys are over the edge, way over, unbelievable…gooney, goofey, truthers, birthers, wackjobs, crazy as a loon…
I am out of here…HA posters have reached the bottom of the barrel, all but completely insane, you should see how you look…folds in a paper, folds, oh my. Call someone a forger because of folds in a document…
A forgery because of folds in a paper…origami gone wild…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Satanist and 33rd degree Mason Aleister Crowley in full Masonic garb.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley_mason.jpg
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 4:49 PM
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