Triggerism, Trutherism, and Birtherism
posted at 9:00 am on December 5, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Michelle takes a close look at the conspiracy-theory impulse on the Left, Right, and fringe today in her syndicated column. Whether one thinks that Sarah Palin has to prove her maternity of Trig or that Barack Obama has to produce a witness to his birth in Hawaii or that the 19 al-Qaeda terrorists actually flew commercial jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the real truth is that these conspiracy theories become belief systems based on conjecture and speculation rather than actual facts and evidence:
The plain truth will never mollify a Truther. There’s always a convoluted excuse – some inconsequential discrepancy to seize on, some photographic “evidence” to magnify into a blur of meaningless pixels – that will rationalize irrationality. Palin could produce Trig’s umbilical cord and it still wouldn’t be enough.
Alas, Trutherism thrives on both the left and right. Which brings us to the spate of lawsuits challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship. On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court considers one of those suits filed by New Jersey citizen Leo Donofrio, who maintains that Obama is not a “natural born citizen” because his father held British citizenship.
There may be a seed of a legitimate constitutional issue to explore here (how is the citizenship requirement enforced for presidential candidates, anyway?) And at least Donofrio concedes that Obama was born in Hawaii. But a dangerously large segment of the birth certificate hunters have lurched into rabid Truther territory. The most prominent crusader against Obama’s American citizenship claim, lawyer Philip Berg (who, not coincidentally, is also a prominent 9/11 Truther), disputes that Obama was born in Hawaii and claims that Obama’s paternal grandmother told him she saw Obama born in Kenya.
Berg and his supporters further assert that the “Certification of Live Birth” produced by Obama was altered or forged. They claim that the contemporaneous birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper of Obama’s birth is insufficient evidence that he was born there. (Did a fortune-teller place it in the paper knowing he would run for president?). And they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being part and parcel of the grand plan to install Emperor Obama and usurp the rule of law.
I believe Trig was born to Sarah Palin. I believe Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on U.S. soil. I believe fire can melt steel and that bin Laden’s jihadi crew – not Bush and Cheney – perpetrated mass murder on 9/11. What kind of kooky conspiracist does that make me?
Just read the comments section, Michelle, and you’ll soon find out. (The column is also at NRO in shorter form.)
Update: Case in point, as e-mailed to me by Allahpundit. Everyone else’s conspiracy theories are kooky, except for Andrew’s. Andrew claims that no documentary evidence exists of Palin’s pregnancy, but that overlooks this report from her doctor:
The letter, dated Nov. 3, is from Dr. Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who works at the Providence Health and Services Alaska clinic in Anchorage.
Ms. Palin, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson wrote, has been a patient at the clinic since 1991. She said Ms. Palin’s visits “have been related to routine women’s health care and pregnancy.”
Ms. Palin gave birth to her five children in 1989, 1990, 1994, 2000 and 2008. Regarding the birth of her fifth child, Trig, Dr. Baldwin-Johnson said Ms. Palin had “no risk factors other than her age.”
Don’t stop believin’, Andrew!
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Pretty good chance Jesus was a real person. The rest of it, quite honestly, was cobbled together from other religions long after he died. That’s the fun bit about being an Atheist, we’ve read more than one religious book.
6 day Creation, sun standing still, worldwide flood, leaders being carted off to heaven and all that other stuff links all three Abrahamic religions. The most of the Jews and most of the Christians understand that these are, in some cases, metaphors. In others, they are an attempt for a scientifically illiterate people to explain the world around them. The people atheists have a problem with are fundamentalists. Those who see their particular magic book as the CORRECT magic book, and all other magic book likers should be punished for not liking the right magic book.
Krydor on December 5, 2008 at 10:34 AM
(I thought the same thing)
DaveC on December 5, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Ed,
Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean little green men are not following me around :) Look, in the sea of conspiracy theories, are not the ODDS with ?something? having merit? Lost as it were awash in the sea of so many conspiracy theories? By dubbing something a conspiracy alone, you can discredited a theory. Not so Objective if all the reasoning being applied say by OUR Government, is then the “Gold Standard” yeah those folks running the country right now should be at MIT….so when I am told by someone who knows, that when a “crisis” or catastrophe happens at a monumental level say 9/11..that they 1 handle the crisis, then second decide on the narrative to Keep the American Public from Panicking because when large crowds of people panic it is more difficult to control, and expend “Government” energy in Money and Man Power.
I don’t buy into conspiracy theories but that doesn’t mean that at different points in history, there have not been conspiracies, who knows- perhaps some conspiracies, that no one even noticed or commented on.
Dr Evil on December 5, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Good point.
I think the birth certificate thing is a non-issue… but not because his life is so “well-documented” as his apologists claim — it just isn’t. He does seem to be be predisposed to obfuscation when asked for direct answers about himself, his past, and his associates.
I haven’t tracked this birth certificate thing closely, but it does seem like it would be vastly preferable — and much simpler — to produce the document, rather than relying on a statement from some official in Hawaii. I’m pretty sure he was born in Hawaii and a bit less sure that he didn’t renounce his citizenship when he was in Indonesia but I have to admit that I’m not 100% positive. If I were sitting on a jury and had to vote based on reasonable doubt… well, I’m not sure I’d be able to say that I was sure about the legitimacy of this guy’s presidency based on the evidence provided.
But I think this issue is a non-starter and we are stuck with this loser as POTUS for the next 4 years. Irrespective of the ‘truth,’ the power brokers who put Lightworker in power would never allow him to be removed from office on some “technicality” (of the Constitution). All you have to do is watch the Franken-Coleman recount spectacle or look at O!’s campaign finance shenanigans or watch San Fran Nan railroad the Senate to come to the conclusion that these folks want power at any costs.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Captain Ed,
I’ve been dealing with this issue in our conservative chatroom for months now. There is a bloc of chatters that are absolutely determined to prove that Obama wasn’t born here; this despite the other bloc trying to talk sense into them.
Michelle is quite correct. The only thing that could come about from this going to the Supreme Court is the criteria for verifying the pre-requisites to be president. There is NO LAW on the books that compels a candidate to do so.
Personally speaking, this subject needs to die, and die quickly. Those on our side that keep making a big deal out of this make our side look like nutter Democrats back in 2001. It doesn’t serve our side well, especially with us trying to pick up the pieces and rebuild the party after the shellacking that we took.
Thomas_in_Mesa
MrAndMrsSmith on December 5, 2008 at 10:46 AM
As for this side issue raised by our troll about the parallels between Christians and truthers, I just wonder what is supposed be accomplished by asserting that.
You think Christians are gullible morons. We get it. Do you think you can change anyone’s mind or are you just being insulting for kicks?
I’m happy for you that you are so confident about your beliefs, but it is pretty naive of you to think that you are in the majority re a belief in God or Christ or a Higher Power. People have been struggling with the mysteries of life for ages. Sometimes bad things arise from that struggle, often good things come from it. It’s what separates us from other animals.
If you want to debate the point, why not find a blog on religion and post there?
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 10:49 AM
When you have a strong belief that a document (Osama Obama’s “real” birth certificate) exists that could end all sorts of crazy and uninformed speculation, yet know the person involved (Obama) won’t release it though it is the simplest thing he can do in this instance, what are you supposed to think?
All I want from this is to ensure that Obama is held, now and throughout the 4, 8 or 10 years he sits in the White House, to the same laws that govern the rest of the nation. That begins with ensuring he is Constitutionally eligible to be POTUS. Others have proven that point when asked (see John McCain)…only Obama has not.
I have a feeling that the country has elected a dangerous, corrupt man to the Presidency. I would like to be proven wrong. And I, unlike millions of others who accepted him blindly, would like to know who the hell he really is.
The BC controversy is only the tip of the iceberg. If BHO was truly an honest man, respectful of our laws, a minimum of half what some of us suspect about him would already be proven or disproved.
MrScribbler on December 5, 2008 at 10:52 AM
When people who deliberately inject themselves into the public square are not readily open and forthcoming with information (Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Richard Nixon, Barack Obama?) it often means they have something to hide.
Just sayin’
whitetop on December 5, 2008 at 10:53 AM
I agree with your basic point. It’s a non-starter issue that doesn’t warrant a great deal of attention (although I support Keyes’ attempt to push the issue by filing a suit here in California since he does seem to have the legal standing to do so that others did not [according to the courts]). However, I think there’s a big difference between the chatter about Lightworker’s birth certificate and the post-election nonsense by the Democrats. The former is being pushed by a few individuals, none of whom are party leaders or government officials, whereas the latter (”W’s election was not legitimate”) was pushed by leading Democrat politicians (and fed by the media, to some extent), not just a few bloggers and some random citizens. So in that sense, I think the “damage” to the Republican party is pretty minimal.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 10:54 AM
Officials in Keyna talking about Obama being born there and doing something with his birth site isn’t exactly helping this much.
jp on December 5, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Don’t get me wrong. I think O! is a pathological liar and a narcissistic jerk. I agree with you that he should produce the bloody piece of paper, which, as far as I can tell, he has not. I just think that there is no way we’re going to get rid of this guy, either through this birth certificate thing or, frankly, through impeachment (should he do something that would warrant it). The only way we’re getting rid of this guy is through a landslide election that rolls in a Republican POTUS and a butt load of Republicans in Congress. And, it has to be a landslide because with the success O! had this time around with voter registration fraud and illegal campaign contributions, there is no way they won’t do it again in 2012.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 10:59 AM
The problem with the JFK assassination was that, while Oswald was a communist, the people in charge of the message wanted it to be about racism (and certain amounts of weirdness sprang out of that). A lot of people swallowed that message, but couldn’t square it with Oswald being the trigger man, so they invented conspiracy theories.
The moon landing conspiracies are either a mutation of that or just more soviet propaganda.
For the Obama-was-born-in-Kenya theory to have any basis, wouldn’t someone have to show some proof that his mother was in Kenya at the appropriate time? Something more than the hearsay of people that are looking for their own piece of fame?
Count to 10 on December 5, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Trig is Sarah and Todd’s son. 9/11 was not a Government inside job. Also, It isn’t the fact about BO born in Hawaii. It is about his father. According to a video on MSNBC both parents must be US citizens. Straight from their mouths this morning. We will know on Monday. The Justices has never touched this issue before. That is what it is about. More than likely, he might have been born in Hawaii. What ever the decision is, then it will be. Then, we can support only to oppose for the next dreary four years.
sheebe on December 5, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Would that be the same Demo nutters, that in the Next 7 years took Control of BOTH Houses of Congress, and the Presidency?
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 11:01 AM
The Federal Government wouldn’t accept my original birth certificate when I was applying for a passport, because it wasn’t in color. That’s because birth certificates weren’t in color when I was born — although there is a little tiny blue stamp mark on the black & white document.
I had to go to the state I was born in and request a new birth certificate in order to get a passport. Original documents apparently are simply not good enough any more.
Sad, isn’t it?
Bill Roper on December 5, 2008 at 11:01 AM
I wouldn’t lump the JFK conspiracy theories (or at least the multiple gunmen theories) in with the others. There’s still a whole bunch of weirdness about that assassination. (Not that it’ll ever be ’solved’).
jim m on December 5, 2008 at 11:02 AM
All of the books of the New Testament were written before the end of the 1st century. The letters of Paul were written in the first decade or two after Christ’s death.
There were plenty of people still living who could have challenged the Christians (and they had plenty of reason to do so) if these stories were made up.
As much as your faith requires you to believe otherwise, the New Testament stories are better documented than almost any other historical event.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Lightworker must have a passport, mustn’t he? How did he get his? Or, are Congressmen somehow exempt from requiring a passport when they travel?
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 11:03 AM
I like your choice of words (although I doubt it was intentional, was it?). Took control describes what happened rather well, I think.
Having said that, guys like Marion Barry and Dennis Kucinich win elections all the time. Being a nutter (or a crook) does not preclude someone from political office.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 11:06 AM
The sad thing about atheists is that most of them are the most close minded, religiously intolerant people you will ever meet.
If you believe that there is no god, then it’s naturally follows that supernatural things cannot happen.
If you believe that there is a god, with the power to create everything, the belief that this god can impregnate a woman with out benefit of male contributions. That this god can bring the dead back to life, or do anything else that violates the laws of physics as we know them.
When atheists ridicule Christians for believing that God can over rule the natural order, they are just demonstrating that they themselves have not thought the issue through.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 11:07 AM
In order to get a passport, you have to be a US citizen.
His COLB shows he is a citizen… just not where he was born. Its a Loophole in the law that in Hawaii, you can get a COLB even if you were born out of the country, as long as one of your parents was a resident of Hawaii for one year prior…
Remember, people who look at these forms are not Lawyers, they are filing clerks, and unless you followed the laws of 3 or 4 different countries, and know how they interact, then it would look legit….
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 11:08 AM
This is one of the few times I’ve ever wholly agreed with Michelle.
irishspy on December 5, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Anyone born in the US is a US citizen by birth. But I have heard that there is a technicality if one is born outside the US, with only one US citizen parent, if that parent hasn’t spend enough recent years of their adult life living in the US–and Obama’s mother was too young to qualify.
But, of course, that is only what i have heard, so I could be wrong.
Count to 10 on December 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Romeo, you can get a birth certificate in Hawaii if you were born out of the country in circumstances where your parents intended to move to Hawaii. But there’s nothing in that Hawaiian law that says your place of birth on the certificate would be listed as Hawaii if you were born out of the country.
jim m on December 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM
You’re right — I used a birth certificate to get mine but I see that the COLB thing is also acceptable. Thanks.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Thats actualy a question I’ve asked in some other places, but no one has yet produced a COLB from Hawaii with anything but a Hawaii Place of Birth… and no one to my knowledge has asked the State what would be put there.
Real question is was he ever legaly adopted, by Soetoro or his GrandParents… because if so then his Birth Cert would have been altered, rereleased, then sealed. There are even cases where the Date of Birth of adoptees was changed back then to protect the reputations of Mothers… (not saying this happened here, just to show how suspect this document can be).
Only real way to resolve these questions is to dig into the paperwork, through Discovery… which the Obama camp has fought tooth and nail to avoid.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Actually, the COLB he produced shows he was born in Honolulu.
jim m on December 5, 2008 at 11:22 AM
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/election/562
“This story has gained credence, separating it from Internet rumors, because Obama has reputedly hired three law firms (firms, not lawyers) to make sure that no one gets access to his birth records in Hawaii or his college transcripts from Occidental College and Harvard. (It is speculated that the transcripts will show he applied for aid to foreign students.)”
aid to foreign students? hmmmm and the trip he took to
Pakistan useing an Indonesian passport…why not a US passport?? Some things just don’t add up.
Madam Liberty on December 5, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Good Lord.
I touched Sarah’s Stomach when she was pregnant. She was Pregnant and Trig was a kicking!
Andrew is an idiot. I wish he would come up here and we could start a myth about him… and his disapearance.. but alas, to many Alaskans like their sleds.
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Any chance Obama hired three law firms because he is facing several lawsuits in different states from different plantiffs on this issue?
jim m on December 5, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Good God, Red Pill was banned here by Allah but he is over on Michelle’s site in rare form spewing all kinds of craziness – introducing and recommending PUMAs sites of all things.
Those PUIMAS are nuts, although we knew that from day one with their rabid support of Hillary.
Rather than Conservatives embracing the Loons Berg and Donofrio, they two should be scolded and scorned quickly and daily for filing frivolious lawsuits in our courts. And Conservtaives would, if it wasn’t about BO.
Jeez, such craziness. The Truthers were condemned as they should be, but now Berg gets a damn pass??
Michelle is right, she hit the nail on the head, cudos to her again for the rational thought and debate.
AprilOrit on December 5, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Michelle has less tolerance then Allah. he will get banned soon enough… then off to LGF redpill may go.
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 11:35 AM
You were fooled, you Alaskan’s will believe anything…
Rumor is she was impregnated by a caribou while hunting and she aborted the “Palibou”…I think I read it in the Enquirer… and she substituted trig, who is really not a citizen (I have never seen his BC). I think you felt the hoof of the “Palibou”.
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Interesting that Lee Harvey Oswald was mentioned in this thread that included mention of Obama’s birth.
Oswald was killed in 1963 by Jack Ruby. If you followed my Obama birth theory presented yesterday you will remember it involved Sukarno clones and macadamia nuts. Ruby owned several nightclubs/stripclubs and one of them, that Oswald worked for, used macadamia nut oil for the dancers because of Ruby’s concern that the dancers not get, “Too rashed up.”
Arlen Specter actually brought this issue up during the Warren Commission hearings but it was dropped after the press went nuts (no pun intended) over the single bullet theory. Had Specter followed up his investigation on where the macadamia nut oil came from, he would have traced it back to the Hawaii-Kenya connection of Obama Sr.
So there you have it. Oswald acted under orders from Ruby who acted under orders from Obama, Sr., who acted under orders from Sukarno. Next — how the Soviets used the Cuban Missile Crisis to deflect attention away from the Obama-led macadamia nut infiltration into Southeast Asia.
grdred944 on December 5, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Berg is the face that people who want to dismiss this whole thing, put on it.
Yes, hes a nut.
Problem is that there are about 12 other lawsuits, by various people, under various statutes, that have nothing to do with Berg, including the one that will be looked at today by the Supremes.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 11:37 AM
It’s good to have Michelle as an ally, yesterday the cultists came at me in their robes and it was scary…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Too bad Obama just didn’t make the document public when all the questions started. It isn’t unreasonable to think that a candidate should have to prove to some official governement agency that he meets the basic Constitutional requirements. But one could say the same thing about all his other unavailable records. Obama’s appearance of hiding something is what has fueled all this conspiracy talk.
katiejane on December 5, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Crap I guess it is like the Jack-O-Lope!
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Finally, a rationale post…but I thought yesterday you had the driver of OJ’s bronco implicated, did you leave out that nugget because of the death threats against you, and that your telephone is tapped by those guys out in front of your house in the van?
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Oh and him – Andrew Sullivan is completely gone. There was a myth about him years ago that turned out to be true.
He has no right taking anyone’s inventory, let alone wondering whether a woman carried her child.
I mean really…
AprilOrit on December 5, 2008 at 11:42 AM
The ultimate Trig Truther page is linked on Excitable Andy’s page. It’s where he got his new ’scoop’ from (In fact, in previous posts on both sites they out and out state that they’ve been in direct contact with each other). I don’t want to link to it directly (make it a little harder for her to get traffic), but if you really want to check it out do it through Ace’s link instead of Excitable Andy’s. No need to give Andy more traffic. It gets a little weird over on the Trig Truther page so prepare yourself if you decide to go. One commenter over on Ace (Jim26) had a pretty funny take: “this woman analyzes pictures of the pregnant Sarah Palin like her belly was the Grassy Knoll.”
meltenn on December 5, 2008 at 11:42 AM
This is the second day that I have read all of these comments on these two very similar columns. I for most of the time that this birth certificate flap has been out there I dismissed it as a bunch of ridiculous nonsense. However, I has this has continued to drag on I find the situation to be more and more curious. Why has Obama not resolved this? Why seal his records rather than getting the orginal and making them public. Obama may very well be a natural born citizen with the right to hold office, and I will not argue any more on that point. What does disturb me is the attitude of several posters, Ed and Michelle included. They seem to NOT CARE whether Obama is Constitutionally eligible to hold the office. Their willingness to capitulate to the Obama line (and an unsubstantiated one at that) makes me nervous that they have dipped into the koolaid. It is not as if this man does not have a track record of LYING to get what he wants, as many here have so frequently pointed out, so why does everyone assume that he would not lie about this? Assuming that he is ineligible, I am not even willing to say that he began his career aware of this knowledge. In fact I would argue that the realization if true, came when he attempted to refute the charges and (apparently as of yet) could not. But, there are several very well reasoned arguements for concern, coupled with very unreasuring conduct of Obama and his team. As such those who claim to care about the Constitution should be pleased that the court is reviewing this case, so that the issue can be put to rest, NOT calling those with some legitimate questions, truthers and all other types of nonsense for daring to question THE ONE!
Govgirl on December 5, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Yes, exactly, you have the Palibou running about…in fact when she was younger here is a picture of her riding one…they grow them big in Alaska…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Yes, but aren’t the bulk of they filers PUMAs?
I think they are. Some of those people are/were the TRUTHERS who decided Ron Paul was unsuitable because of his questionable relationship to Derek Black & his father, i.e. Stromfront. They all filed over to Hillary.
AprilOrit on December 5, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Well when you act the victum and play one… eventually people get bored.
Wasn’t sure on the matthew shepard thing though. Very odd reading.
upinak on December 5, 2008 at 11:47 AM
+1. Props to Ed and Allah too.
meltenn on December 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Anyone born in the US is a US citizen by birth. But I have heard that there is a technicality if one is born outside the US, with only one US citizen parent, if that parent hasn’t spend enough recent years of their adult life living in the US–and Obama’s mother was too young to qualify.
But, of course, that is only what i have heard, so I could be wrong.
Count to 10 on December 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Don’t think you are wrong. They claimed on MSNBC that both parents must be US citizens for one to run for Pres. So, since the Justices has never had to deal with this. Who knows what will be. Guess it will be Monday to find out. Some of the laws which I read, can be not to forthright to understand. Guess that is why it is best to have a lawyer. :)
sheebe on December 5, 2008 at 11:56 AM
It doesn’t matter if the claims were made by Mickey Mouse (who probably voted, BTW. lol). If the claims have their basis in law – as Donofrio’s does – then it’s not a conspiracy. It’s a matter of law, which is why the SCOTUS is looking at this today.
Sheesh. Was Bush v Gore a conspiracy, Michelle? Ed? Anybody?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 11:57 AM
Hmmm… I don’t know who the majority of the filers are…
But I would not call Allan Keyes a PUMA (a bit nutty maybe, but not a PUMA).
Whats interesting to me is the tactic being used to dismiss this subject.
Legally, they are saying that American citizens have no Standing to enforce the Constitution….
While both Left and Right blogs are trying to dismiss is by calling those who want to see the real documents, nutters, and Jim Jones types… and conspiricy theory folks…
Please explain to me why it is SOOOO outrageous, or Nutty, or cool aid drinking insane… to want to see this guys origional Birth Certificate?
When what his campaign produced the first time was proven to be a fraud, and what has been produced the second time (which is different) was created in 2007, and the data used to produce it can be modified under Hawaiin Law?
And when, although people have searched all the Hospitals on Oahu, they can’t find any Medical records of Obamas birth?
I am not accusing anyone of anything, BUT, wouldn’t it be safer to do the discovery and find out?
We routinely do document checks on new emplyees, and if we find they lied to us, they are terminated… I just see this as the document check.
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM
If NJ and CA’s ballots were not printed legally, would those EC votes be illegal?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Would NJ and CA get to vote in the EC if their ballots were illegally printed (i.e. not in accordance with their own laws)?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Alan Keyes is not a PUMA. Here’s the link to his filing for a writ of mandamus.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 12:07 PM
You are right about the technicality — current citizenship law provides that for a child to be a natural-born citizen, that child must have been born to at least one parent who has resided at least five continuous years in the United States, with at least two of those years occurring after the age of 14. Obama’s mother appears to satisfy these criteria, as do her parents. This would make Obama automatically a “natural-born citizen”.
unclesmrgol on December 5, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Twelfth Amendment says, “The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed”
If some of the states’ electors were disqualified because their general election ballots were not legal in their state – would they still count as appointed Electors?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:13 PM
Unclesmrgol is it 2 years after the age of 14, or is it 5? The 1988 law was grandfathered in, but somewhere I read that the 1988 law was amended a year or two later to get rid of that provision. Anybody know for sure about that?
Donofrio’s case doesn’t depend on Obama’s birth locaton at all. But if Obama has ever had allegiance to another country then he is not considered “natural born” according to US v Rhodes.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:17 PM
That suit has nothing to do with his birth certificate…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Also, citizen at birth is not the same as “natural born citizen” in a Constitutional sense. A dual citizen can be a US citizen by birth but not a natural born citizen because they are not SOLELY an American citizen by birth. AT least that’s what Donofrio argues and he cites precedent for it.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:22 PM
You are quoting current law, not the law in 1961 when Obama was born…
She would have to be 19 years old, for Barrak to be a US citizen if born outside the US by the law at the time.
Thats why this whole thing is so screwy…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 12:23 PM
I love that Andrew begged the McCain campaign to make him look like an idiot. Like he needed any help to do that!
Brainster on December 5, 2008 at 12:24 PM
The birth certificate could become an issue if the SCOTUS agrees that the NJ ballot requires eligibility to be verified. I would certainly hope they wouldn’t leave the Consitutional definition of “natural born” up to the NJ SOS but would rather decide what it does mean. If Donofrio’s argument about dual citizenship doesn’t hold, then the act of verifying Obama’s eligibility would end up being a Berg-type procedure – with birth certificate, passports, etc.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Romeo at 12:23
But there was a law in 1988 (I think) which grandfathered in those who fit the new criteria making 16 the minimum age for a parent to pass on citizenship by birth for foreign-born children.
However, I’ve also read that the 1988 law was amended to get rid of the grandfather clause.
It’s a zoo trying to keep up with what the government says. Hard to shoot a moving target.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:28 PM
I read an article in the Weekly World News just this morning that is making me rethink the A.C. Cowlings connection. Seems that Cowlings is tied into the almond growers which lends itself to a California-Somalia connection and not the Hawaii-Kenya connection.
grdred944 on December 5, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Its against the Constitution to create Ex Post Facto law…
You could grant them citizenship, and even amnesty, but he would not have been a citizen for those years… thus, he would be a NATURALIZED Citizen (common definition, one made by law).
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Lovely.
“Birtherism”: New word meaning, “Obama refuses to release his long-form birth certificate and other documents.”
Use: To insult those who think he should.
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Ex Post Facto = retroactive? (I hate lawyer speak)
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Here we go again. Taking wagers for the over/under on total comments to this post by midnight Pacific time. I’m in for 1,200.
bryanmyrick on December 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM
I think it’s important to understand the intent of the Constitution’s authors regarding the “natural born” requirement. What they were likely guarding against was a president with dual loyalties. My question is, to what extent is Obama willing to sacrifice US interests to aid Kenya or Indonesia? The answer to that question is his 2006 trip to Kenya where he actually campaigned for his alleged cousin Odinga against the incumbent, which is a violation of US law. So how loyal is Obama to the United States?
NNtrancer on December 5, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Bingo, NNtrancer!
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Barry won the election (with illegal contributions from overseas and was dragged across the finish line by the Dinosaur Media), so let’s get over it and kick ass in 2010.
Let’s not waste our time on this rubbish.
America the Beautiful!!!
omnipotent on December 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Obama’s appearance of hiding something is what has fueled all this conspiracy talk.
katiejane on December 5, 2008 at 11:39 AM
APPEARANCE of hiding something??
He’s hiding nearly everything! What HAS he released? What documents associated with the enigma that is his life?
To all of those who would tut tut these MULTIPLE matters regarding his eligibility, maybe you should care more about the reasons he is hiding behind law firms and “standing.” At what point does Occam’s Razor come into play here?? How much money would any of YOU be willing to spend to fight the release of YOUR birth certificate? His attempts at blocking the issue alone have profound Constitutional ramifications down the road. Look past the end of your noses. You are assuming conservatives will get back in power in 2010 or 2012. Even if they do, how long did it take America to recover form the Carter presidency, a mere 4 years?
allahallahoxenfree on December 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Here are some facts that have nothing to do with his BC (for those interested in facts and not CYA):
1. He was a US citizen at birth (Mom US citizen)
2. He was a UK citizen at birth (Dad British citizen, son is ‘direct decent citizen’ per British nationality Act of 1948)
3. He was a Kenyan citizen until 1982 (per Obama’s own smears website)
It’s possible, maybe even likely, that he became (only?) an Indonesian citizen (they do not have dual citizenship) since he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro and changed his name to Barry Soetoro.
Was he a “naturalized citizen” in light of the above? I have no idea.
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Throw in the fact that he specifically disabled the security settings on his campaign contributions site so that anybody in the world could pay for his election… and it’s more than just loyalties to Indonesia and Kenya that become an issue as well. Moamar Qadaffi (whose son donated almost as much as “Friends of Obama” did to Odinga’s campaign) says that Obama’s campaign was financed by Arab Muslims. Maybe, maybe not. But Obama sure did his part to make sure it was a possibility…
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:39 PM
no dual citizenship until 2002 anyway
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Yep, literaly “after the fact”. Ie, you can’t make somthing illegal AFTER someone did it, then prosecute them for it (although the Dems did try this with Tom Delay and campaign finance laws, it did eventualy get thrown out after ruining his carreer).
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 12:41 PM
That is exactly why the majority of those who are demanding proof of Obama’s eligibility…are NOT Truthers. Truthers refuse to accept verifiable evidence. Questions regarding Obama’s elibility to be President WILL be satisfied with certified documentation. All of Obama’s records are “unavailable.” Why is that?
.
Once official certified documents are presented, which every other president elect has released willing, then Constitutional eligibility can be determined and the issue is over. With no certified documentation of his various school records, long form birth certificate, emigration/immigration records, passport(s), and other documentation presented, how is elibility to be determined or possible conflicting sovereign allegiances? Obama’s demonstrated golden word?
blue sky on December 5, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Disappointed in MM and ED.
I think that people who are not demanding information from The One are the nutroots.
The ad in the Hawaiian newspaper could have been announcing a foreign birth. They don’t demand evidence and grandma may have been excited or mom may have wanted it for her friends and somebody called it in.
The COLB may be genuine or not. But what is so big about a long form birth certificate? The media practically wanted a colonscopy of President Nixon with no evidence. And check some of the famous (infamous?) nominations.
The interesting part is that this guy can’t show records. If there is nothing to hide, He must be nuttier than the 911 Truthers and the UFO crowd put together!
IlikedAUH2O on December 5, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Romeo at 12:41 I hear you on Tom Delay. How the heck did Ronnie Earl come out of that with his hide?
But would the citizenship be the same thing, since it doesn’t outlaw anything?
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Ed,
Why didn’t you say “Barackkerism?” A la “Triggerism,” you merely repeat the final consonant of the name and then add the suffix “ism.” After all, Triggerism is a subset of Birtherism.
Christien on December 5, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Yeah, I actualy think its the adoption angle that he is trying to hide… if someone gets to do discovery, it may come out.
Back then his name did change to Soetoro… which meant he was the son of Barry Soetoro, or there would not have been a name change.
What we don’t know is where the adoption took place, Hawaii, or Indonesia… however, Hawaii state law does recognize adoptions from Indonesia (I actualy ran across that yesterday searching for somthing else).
And this is where the whole Natural Born vs. Naturalized thing comes into play… if his mother did give up his citizenship, then IF and when he did the paperwork to regain, he would be a Naturalized citizen…
But once again… that gonna be up to whatever definition the Supremes decide on that issue…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 12:48 PM
even if this is true, it shouldn’t be pursued for political reasons. Maybe if Obama got unpopular though.
Right now, to the moderate/independent voters out there who wanted ‘change’, they hear this and all they see is desperation and it confirms in their minds the need to get rid of the GOP. Its really that simple, the national “mood” is against the GOP and saying the first black president elected isn’t eligible before he even takes office looks really bad in the PR arena.
jp on December 5, 2008 at 12:49 PM
short version of what I mean is, a figure like a POTUS can get away with murder if they have the mobs on their side.
see Bill Clinton, he got disbarred but he didn’t get removed from the presidency and today he’s loved by over half the country
jp on December 5, 2008 at 12:50 PM
jp, that’s why this needs to be pinned on Hillary where it belongs.
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I disagree. The major players in this are not the face of the GOP. If Michael Steele was pushing this or members of Congress were holding pressers on this, that’d be one thing. This is private citizens who are asking the questions. As long as the GOP leadership does not get involved directly, I don’t think there is much damage to the party.
Y-not on December 5, 2008 at 12:51 PM
This is my conspiracy theory regarding the birth certificate:
Somewhere along the line, Obama’s people got wind that it was becoming an issue for some of his political opponents, and a decision was made to deliberately obfuscate about it, in order to make the critics look like conspiracy loons when they grew more insistent about it. The hope was that this would end up discrediting a lot of legitimate criticism, too, by making it look like all of Obama’s critics were lunatics.
Pretty shrewd move, if you ask me.
Their plan all along has been to
Kensington on December 5, 2008 at 12:52 PM
If you think this through a few steps…
If one of these lawsuits makes it through and Obama is ruled ineligible on some technicality, I can hear “stolen election” and more.
It would be better to paint Hillary as the culprit.
It would also be better to stand against McCain’s citizenship. Who wants to hear “no legitimacy” and “stolen election” for 4 years?
A new election would result.
Of course, Michelle Obama would then run. And Barack would be a hero.
Obama vs. Palin?
faraway on December 5, 2008 at 12:52 PM
An oasis of actual thinking instead of hysterical ranting about Trig Palin, JFK and moon landings? How could you?
Let me guess. You sent that comment from your black helicopter carrying the alien babies of Nancy Pelosi.
econavenger on December 5, 2008 at 12:52 PM
JP, the rule of law is more important than political expedience. Probably Hillary will end up president if these suits are successful. I don’t care. When someone tries to weazel out of following the Constitution, them’s fighting words – even if they come from Michelle, Ed, David Horowitz, or Michael Medved. Giving in to lawlessness because it’ll make you more popular or appear to be less extreme is not an option for anyone who loves the Constitution.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
even if this is true, it shouldn’t be pursued for political reasons. Maybe if Obama got unpopular though.
Right now, to the moderate/independent voters out there who wanted ‘change’, they hear this and all they see is desperation and it confirms in their minds the need to get rid of the GOP. Its really that simple, the national “mood” is against the GOP and saying the first black president elected isn’t eligible before he even takes office looks really bad in the PR arena.
jp on December 5, 2008 at 12:49 PM
If this proves to be true and he is ineligible, then I don’t give a damn about placating the masses. The truth will filter out to them no matter how dense they are. If he is Constitutionally eligible, then I will just grit my teeth for four years
allahallahoxenfree on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
well this maybe why you don’t see more mainstream conservative commentators taking this on.
the key is the left/dem/MSM will label this as “Conservatives” which in the minds of many means Republicans. The moderates that is.
the problem is it all sounds like a technicality(if true) so the moderates could careless. They look at Obama and don’t see any reason he shouldn’t be President.
jp on December 5, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Pay no attention to the fact that all world leaders,presidents, mainstream media personalities and top business owners are 33rd degree masons and illuminati members.
Why should it matter to you that all politics,media and business is controlled by members of a satanic cult?
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Don’t worry..they told us there’s no conspiracy.
STFU and get back to your American Idol.
SaintOlaf on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
I’d argue, sometimes you have to play politics over the rule of law. The Democrats are too close to the Filibuster proof Senate, what they’ve manage to gain already through Political B.S. is scary enough.
in alot of ways having the mobs on your side is the defacto law.
jp on December 5, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Unless is is prooven he lied to the electorate.
Thats the one thing that really gets American riled up… but there has to be proof…
Oh…. and I’ll freely admit I’m not a Republican…
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Keep me posted, you are the only one making sense on this thread…have you looked into the pistachio fiasco?
About this time, 1961, we stopped importing pistachios from Iran (remember when they were red?)…but we outlawed red dye #41, so now they are green, regardless, about the time Obama was born, pistachios were no longer imported from the middle east. Could there be some connection, seeing as they are all nuts (pistachios and almond).
Nutty-gate…
right2bright on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Truthers are nuts, the birth certificators are not
I’ll bet Obama was born in Hawaii – but also bet he’s not eligible to serve as President.
1) he could not have travelled to Pakistan as a U.S. Citizen in 1981-82. He says he went there.
2) the certificate of live birth says his father was “African.” That marks it as a fake – they didn’t use that term then.
3) The governer of Hawaii has said the documentation exists – but not what’s on that documentation. Does it say “Davis?” the governer is not allowed, by law, to tell us.
4) the co-temporaneous newspaper announcement has no bearing on many of the key questions – specifically not on the renunciation issue.
At best it bears on the Kenyan birth idea – but I’d bet real money that story is utter nonsense anyway.
Paul Murphy on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Having the military on your side is the defacto law, and they swear an oath to uphold the Consitution.
If we lose the rule of law, we’ve lost everything America is.
I feel like I’ve lost America. If we submit to mob rule the loss will be reality. America is not for sale to George Soros’ Rent-a-Mob thugs.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:00 PM
I am no cultist. I almost voted for Obama! (Until I found out more about his politics and connections.)
This isn’t about getting him out of office. Even if he had been born on the moon, I’m certain they would come up with a way for him to stay in office. I don’t really care if they do.
This is about what we, the people, deserve. If the law is that a president has to be natural-born, then that is the law. One doesn’t overlook the law just because the guy it affects is popular.
The fact that he goes out of his way to prevent the people from seeing basic documents should be another cause for concern to a thinking person. And the people who are concerned are labeled nuts?
The reasoning that, “Well, he shouldn’t bother to show these papers, because the conspiracy nuts wouldn’t believe them anyway,” isn’t reasoning at all.
You might question if I am legally married. I can either show you my official marriage certificate or I can refuse to, and make sure you never see it.
If I show it to you and you still refuse to believe it, well then yes, you are a conspiracy theorist. If I refuse to show it to anyone, when doing so is simple, then hey, nobody is going to trust me.
And if I’m running for some office that legally requires I be married to do so (assuming one existed), then it would be incumbent on me to prove that I qualified, and incumbent on you, the citizen, to require that I do.
Simple.
Alana on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
He’s lied to America so many times it’s not even funny. The media just covers it up and on we go. But this is big enough that the media CAN’T cover it up, if the SCOTUS rules against him.
justincase on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
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