Time to end the war on drugs?
posted at 12:20 pm on December 5, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Seventy-five years ago today, the nation amended the Constitution to end Prohibition after a disastrous experiment in banning alcohol. Ethan Nadelmann uses the event to ask Americans whether the time has come to end its decades-long experiment in banning other drugs and allow citizens to make their own decisions on intoxicants. The appearance of this column at the Wall Street Journal shows how mainstream it has become to question the war on drugs:
The Americans who voted in 1933 to repeal prohibition differed greatly in their reasons for overturning the system. But almost all agreed that the evils of failed suppression far outweighed the evils of alcohol consumption.
The change from just 15 years earlier, when most Americans saw alcohol as the root of the problem and voted to ban it, was dramatic. Prohibition’s failure to create an Alcohol Free Society sank in quickly. Booze flowed as readily as before, but now it was illicit, filling criminal coffers at taxpayer expense.
Some opponents of prohibition pointed to Al Capone and increasing crime, violence and corruption. Others were troubled by the labeling of tens of millions of Americans as criminals, overflowing prisons, and the consequent broadening of disrespect for the law. Americans were disquieted by dangerous expansions of federal police powers, encroachments on individual liberties, increasing government expenditure devoted to enforcing the prohibition laws, and the billions in forgone tax revenues. And still others were disturbed by the specter of so many citizens blinded, paralyzed and killed by poisonous moonshine and industrial alcohol.
Supporters of prohibition blamed the consumers, and some went so far as to argue that those who violated the laws deserved whatever ills befell them. But by 1933, most Americans blamed prohibition itself.
When repeal came, it was not just with the support of those with a taste for alcohol, but also those who disliked and even hated it but could no longer ignore the dreadful consequences of a failed prohibition. They saw what most Americans still fail to see today: That a failed drug prohibition can cause greater harm than the drug it was intended to banish.
Do most Americans fail to see that? I’m not sure, and the fact that the question has become mainstream speaks to a dawning realization of that reality. Thirty years ago, talk of legalization remained on the fringe of American politics, mostly among drug users (with obvious interests in that direction) and libertarians. Reason Magazine would have been the most mainstream publication in those years to even make the argument, and perhaps the Village Voice. Otherwise, the thought of legalizing recreational drugs was thought politically insane.
No one doubts the destructive nature of most of the substances banned now, except for marijuana, where serious debate exists. Cocaine and heroin are deeply and physically addictive and deadly, as are most controlled or banned substances. But should people be left to their own devices and government stay out of the way of their behavior, only intervening when their behavior affects others? Where would that line get drawn, anyway?
Clearly, what we have been doing hasn’t worked. At the margins, it impacts behavior, but overall, Americans still create a huge demand that gets fulfilled by criminal enterprises. That is no different than what Prohibition created, and the effects have been the same: rampant violence, large wealth transfers to organized crime, dilution of law-enforcement efforts, exploding prison populations, and so on.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Under that definition, the American idea of a war on drugs is as politically insane as it gets. Succeeding administrations and Congresses led by both parties keep assuring us that they will turn the corner on the war on drugs, but nothing changes except for the names and the faces. We have enabled a powerful central government and organized crime to limit our freedoms in every direction as a result of this policy. We could at least roll back both by returning to the more rational policy on drugs that the US had before prohibition fever hit a century ago.
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The Libertarian in me agrees. But…I would exclude adolescents as drugs/alcohol seem to be toxic to development. Given my own experiences, perhaps increasing the initial age of allowed self-destruction through drugs/alcohol to maybe 25 for males. Maybe people who wish to chronically recreate in this fashion could forgo individual transportation.
trl on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Being a (ex)limey, I think of “Withnail & I”, and the infamous “Camberwell Carrot”.
http://www.withnail-links.com/misc-drugs.htm
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
You people who talk about killing dealers and whipping users are retarded. Please, there is not going to be a point in our society that people will stop using drugs. We have used mind altering substances for thousands of years. The government can’t stop it. The only person who can stop the use of drugs is the user themselves. Treatment is the only option. Drug use is a disease. People who have never been addicted do not understand the need of the addicted. If we control the users and treat the wanting then we would have a valid policy. Why is it that we can go out and drink beer and smoke cigarettes and they have the highest mortality rates than heroin and coke combined??? You drug war loyalist are just plain ignorant and I might add egotistical to think you have a higher moral ground than someone who is addicted as a disease.
SAMIAMJAX on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Thank you, Ed, for being a non-libertarian who’s willing to raise these questions. I appreciate your efforts to bring opposition to the War on Drugs into the political mainstream.
Enrique on December 5, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Malaysia and Singapore.
On the customs form for Malaysia is says in big bold letters “Drug Smugglers will be Executed”
BacaDog on December 5, 2008 at 12:54 PM
I’ve also got an opinion about harder drugs.
It’s legal to smoke yourself to death, drink yourself to a dead liver, and eat Big Macs till your heart explodes. We allow these people to pass on as “Darwin Award Winners”. Why wouldn’t we allow drug users to shoot up until they die? Cold-hearted? Maybe, but there are all kinds of ways people can take something to excess and kill themselves. Why do we single out some of the quickest, most efficient ways to do so?
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
It’s the criminal distribution networks that makes the enormous money and corrupts everything , the money the farmers get are peanuts that’s not the part that finance the terrorists and mafias.
the_nile on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
The Libertarian in me agrees. But…I would exclude adolescents as drugs/alcohol seem to be toxic to development.
If drugs were legalized, they would at least have the same restrictions placed on them that alcohol and cigarettes do. And probably some more.
Tom_Shipley on December 5, 2008 at 12:56 PM
And while we’re at it, let’s install suicide booths around town.
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 12:56 PM
There’s no way I’d support legalization of all recreational drugs. Pot maybe, but how would we classify over-the-limit driving, etc.? Pot today can be very powerful. Kids who use it while their brain is still developing can end up triggering mental illness they may be genetically predisposed to. There are a lot of logistics to figure out.
I think pot is still illegal for different reasons than have been stated so far. I think it’s because if pot is legal, people will really start to wonder why we don’t use hemp for industry. The lumber, petroleum, and cotton big-wigs would need to compete with a weed that doesn’t need fertilizer, pesticides, or much labor. It could decimate those industries. I think they are the ones who don’t want pot or hemp legalized.
NTWR on December 5, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Nope..bad news all around…even just dope is bad…I did it for over 10 years and I can testify personally it is unhealthly and dangerous…depression , being paranoid all the time…oh yeah…dope..great times…not…
And if you do legalize even just marijauna, how do you penalize those that are driving under the influence??? AND Yes folks, it affects your ability to drive incredibly…and not in a good way…
Granted, I would agree keep the greater focus on the drug wars against coke, crack, meth, speed, herion etc etc….those can kill you instantly pretty well..
Dope just slowly turns you into a moron…
Albertanator on December 5, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Cool, so then we can go back to having Bayer market hype kits so you can inject without yourself.
We can also go back to marketing drugs such as morphine and/or herion to babies because it soothes their crying jags.
While we are at it, we can again use these types of drugs to tread alcoholics and their withdrawal symptoms.
And, most importantly, I should then be able to get whatever drug I need without a prescription or even seeing a doctor.
TexasDude on December 5, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Lehosh…eating burgers isn’t physically addictive. Come up with a better argument. Have you ever seen a meth addict on a binder? Check the jail system and see how many drug-related crimes including murders have occured due to that person being high. I doubt that eating a double whooper would provoke anyone into holding up their local 7-11 for money to buy another burger. Please.
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Narcotics includes all kinds of drugs. For the moment, we deal with the fact that they are all illegal. As to things such as crystal meth, crack, and that sort of crude homebrewed crap, I think FDA regulation would rid us of them. The outlawing of a drug should not be based on the intensity of the high, but on the actual damage they wreak on the human body.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 12:58 PM
In principle I’d say legalize, but we’re such a responsibility averse society at this point, and some drugs are so quickly destructive, I’m really hesitant.
If we were a nation of informed adults, I’d have less reservations. But as Zeigler (sp?) showed, too many of us are ill informed of waht’s out there.
I’d also like to reset the drinking age to 18 or so. Whatever age you can serve in the military, you should be allowed to buy a beer at.
It used to be that drugs like coke, and heroin were legal, but people got disgusted with the long term effects of large numbers of addicts on society. So they required perscriptions. Then they had the unpleasant situation of doctors prescribing themselves these intoxicants. So they criminalized it. If people could be responsible, I don’t think there’d be a problem with legalization. Of course once you start taking intoxicants, you loose your ability to be responsible.
If they ever legalize drugs, I hope they legalize everything but pot. Potheads are the most obnoxious, smelly wastes and that’d piss the hippies off.
Iblis on December 5, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Can suicide booths be used in moderation? Of course not. Can some drugs like cocaine be used in moderation? Ask everyone who was on Wall Street in the 80s.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
+1
And while were at it, let’s end the war on crime. And POOF!!! No more crime. See? Isn’t that great? No crime. Just like the drug problem that we got rid of!
wise_man on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
the_nile on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Yeah, I get that. But just as America was an agriculutural economy in the past, many S. American economies are now. Yes, the drugs would be cheaper and there would be less incenive to grow them, but when your nation’s exports are topped by tropical fruit, growing, making, and exporing coke will be more valuable. What that type of sectoral shift in these economies would do long run is anyone’s guess.
VolMagic on December 5, 2008 at 1:00 PM
It may need adjustment but the war must continue. When you remove moral, ethical or legal constraints from an irrational, hedonistic mind you concurrently begin the complete destruction of a large portion of society. To quit or yield to the liberal mindset in this matter is at best a copout and at worst the sanctioning of wholesale chemical slaughter.
rplat on December 5, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Agreed, it is time to end the “war on drugs.”
We need to teach our children the truth about drugs. I believe that providing misinformation regarding the dangers of pot lead children to the conclusion that if they lied to us about pot maybe they’re not telling the truth about the other drugs.
Plus, I’m an adult. I don’t need the government to be my mommy. If I am in pain, I should be able to buy something to help with the pain that really does help with the pain. If I have a bad cough, I should be able to buy cough syrup containing codeine if that is what I want to buy.
The time has come to declare the war over and roll back the clock to the 19th century with the addition of the consumer protection we have in place regarding labeling, quality, etc.
It’s amusing that many conservatives decry the nanny state when it infringes upon a right they hold dear — home schooling for example — and yet can’t reach the rational conclusion that people should be free to make their own choices regarding their consumption of drugs.
crashland on December 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Let’s make up a little scenario.
We have, in the Oval Office, a man who admittedly, has absorbed Cocaine into his body. (Smoked, Snorted, Shot,…whatever).
He is sitting in the Oval Office, with the cabinet members, making a decision regarding attacking or counter attacking another country. He is under the influence. Or, lets say there is a pile of Coke on the table in front of all the Cabinet members, and instead of or next to that glass of water is a line of Coke, which they can either consume or not. They have to make a decision about attacking or counter attacking.
And you who are in favor of legalizing drugs are ok with this?
PappaMac on December 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM
The “W.O.D.” is a joke. We need to seriously address the issue sans the usual demagoguery. Thanks for the post Ed.
toliver on December 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM
wise_man on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 PM
No one says he drug problem will disappear. he legaizaion supports think the evils caused by prohibition are greaer han hose caused by free use of the substances. It’s an empirical question, wm.
VolMagic on December 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Easily the shortest and best response to Ed’s occasional bout of flatulence that I’ve ever seen. You get five stars plus.
unclesmrgol on December 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM
I’d look at legalizing pot use, but not its commercial sale. In other words, you can grow it for yourself or give it away, but not make money off it. Sure, there’d be some small-time sellers, but nothing like the existing commercialization of alcohol and tobacco.
starfleet_dude on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
I need to get my “t” button fixed.
Lol, no mess up in that sentence… what a finicky keyboard.
VolMagic on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
100 + comments and counting already..
time to shift this over to the left column?
DaveC on December 5, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Isn’t the California state Flower still the Poppy?
Romeo13 on December 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Repeal the seatbelt law first, then talk to me about getting rid of other laws.
Bob Feeblethorp on December 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Leftist Permutation:
LehoshWileygrl3…eating burgersdoing meth isn’tphysically addictivedestructive to the ecosystem and poor farmers in Zimbabwe. Come up with a better argument. Have you ever seen ameth addict on a bindera poor indigenous farmer oppressed by the heel of Capitalism? Check thejail system3rd World and see how manydrug-related crimescrimes against nature and the Other including murders have occured due tothat person being highAmericans buying into corporate hegemony. I doubt thateating a double whoopersmoking a joint would provoke anyone into holdingup their local 7-11 for money to buy another burgerbecoming a slave to Western corporations. Please.Lehosh on December 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Madison, you’re assuming that the drug users are quietly sitting in their dark holes not bothering anyone as they slowly kill themselves with their habit. Unfortunately our jail systems tell another story. I live in Arizona and the drug crime here is ridiculous. People high on drugs will do just about anything to anyone to maintain their habits. Home invasions, car jackings, the list goes on. Legalizing it may curb the dealer population but the violent addict population will just keep rising.
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
And while we’re at it, let’s ban guns. POOF! No more gun crime, just like England!
That standard has been applied before, and it still fails to hold water.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
The facts don’t bear this out. Pseudoephedrine and ephedrine are already controlled, and all it’s done is to cause the small labs to go out of business. The slack has been picked up by Mexican superlabs, which produce a much higher quality product. Result? Greater purity, which means that people move from snorting low grade stuff, to smoking high grade stuff, which hooks them faster and destroys them more completely.
The law of unintended consequences, hard at work.
Farmer_Joe on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Could be. You don’t make coke from poppy, however.
VolMagic on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Let’s all remember our free market principle of supply and demand:
If you reduce the cost of drugs (both in dollar terms and risk of punishment), and the availability of drugs, than demand will rise sharply.
So anyone promoting drug legalization should do so knowing there will be more addicts and more lives ruined (including lots of kids of drug addicts).
That doesn’t make legalization wrong, just don’t imagine there is a magic approach that reduces drug enforcement and usage.
Clark1 on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
How about we tattoo a BIG “D” on users foreheads and then we can persecute them like the middle ages. Oh just like the War On Drugs is of the middle ages…..
Treatment is Prevention.
SAMIAMJAX on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Ed,
The problem with the ‘war on drugs’ is the American public really doesn’t want to do what is necessary to end drug trafficking in the US.
It would be rather simple to stop the drug flow. Put the Army/Marines on the borders with immigration personnel, Air Force/Navy/Marines in the air and the Navy/Coast Guard patrolling the coastlines. Then make it abundantly clear to all citizens of this country and citizens of the rest of the world that if they want to try to bring drugs into the country and if they refuse to be searched, as in truck/car at the borders, airplanes coming from known drug countries or by ship, then the military will use deadly force to stop the vehicle you are using to smuggle the drugs in. No questions asked, no negotiating, you either comply or you are fired upon and if you die, well, you were warned.
The country doesn’t have the will to end the drug trade because they don’t have the stomach for it and there is too much money in it.
belad on December 5, 2008 at 1:05 PM
As the subject pertains to the prison population in my state of California. We pay some prison guards 100k + with overtime and a fair percentage of convicts imprisoned are being held for possession and lessor drug violations.
My state is heading for bankruptcy, I say refer some of these non violent offenders to house arrest, ankle bracelets, whatever.
I’m no lib. I don’t condone casual drug use but having worked in and around the system I can say some of these knuckleheads don’t belong in prison.
FireBlogger on December 5, 2008 at 1:05 PM
Farmer_Joe on December 5, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Also, I can’t buy Sudafed in Tn without a prescription.
Sudafed!
VolMagic on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Lehosh, get over your liberal boo hoo “America is evil capitalist” self and go blog at Huff Po…yawn
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
there are two debates here…the drug war, and marijuana prohibition. Banning pot is a much more ridiculous idea than banning the hard drugs that kill people. Pot doesnt kill people, but drug wars over the right to sell the stuff on the block kill people. It really is very simple, and conservatives that find themselves against legalization must at least come through with some sort of conciliatory rhetoric as to WHY they insist on beating back libertarians.
ernesto on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Yes, but the primary reason they commit crimes so they can maintain their habit is because drugs are so expensive. The primary reason they are so expensive is because the war on drugs keeps the prices high. Take out the war on drugs and the street value plummets. Suddenly heroin is available at Wal-Mart prices and even your welfare-fed junkie can afford the family pack.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Bullpie.
We deal with alcohol, and it costs us BILLIONS already. Now everyone wants to suddenly spend BILLIONS more dealing with all the other drugs out there?
Let Johnny have his Ice as long as I get my 3.2 beer?
Sounds like we are cutting off a leg to cure an ingrown toenail.
Limerick on December 5, 2008 at 1:06 PM
You shouldn’t hang out with such lightweights.
I don’t think even you believe that. It does as much as killing Napster did for illegal mp3 downloading. Yes, it still happens, but it’s not anywhere close to as widespread, especially among the near computer illiterate.
I actually know someone who used his DARE medal to clean out his paraphernalia.
I could support that.
Not when you include taxes, at that point it’ll likely be more expensive.
Probably because suicide is illegal.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Yeah, shooting up a whole neighborhood over a corner to sell drugs sounds reasonable to me. A shooting war on our southern border sounds reasonable to me. /sarc
If these drug dealers, drug lords and narco-terrorist lost the financial incentive would they still pursue that avenue of criminal enterprise?
wise_man fails at being wise
Sammy316 on December 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM
It would already be pretty bad if the President were drunk. The 25th Amendment gives the executive branch some latitude to relieve the POTUS if he is incapacitated.
dedalus on December 5, 2008 at 1:08 PM
YES YES YES a million times YES
In fact, the President still has time to issue a mass pardon for all of the thousands perhaps millions of people who are sitting in jail now and have had their lives ruined for NO GOOD REASON WHATSOEVER.
And the busybodies who have taken so much pleasure over the years in ruining other people’s lives need to be publicly humiliated.
Every bad mistake this President has ever made can be overcome with one good decision right at the very end. He would be loved forever because of it.
If you know anyone who knows George, PASS IT ON…
universalagent on December 5, 2008 at 1:08 PM
So anyone promoting drug legalization should do so knowing there will be more addicts and more lives ruined (including lots of kids of drug addicts
Again, this is based on the false premise that drugs themselves ruin lives. Drug use generally tends to be a symptom of other problems. The laws against drugs probably ruin more lives than drugs themselves for the reasons I mention above.
A certain percentage of people have serious problems with or without drugs, and these are also the people most likely to use drugs. It’s a bit like noticing that everyone who commits crimes also drinks water, and concluding water must be the cause of illegal behavior.
TallDave on December 5, 2008 at 1:09 PM
All you people in this thread that want to legalize it and then tax it really don’t want to legalize it. Taxing it excessively will put the legal product out of reach for most, perpetuating the illegal market anyway (I guess the government could tax and subsidize it, per its usual idiocy). First thing to do is stop ER and other healthcare for the users at the public’s expense.
I don’t care what you’re talking about, we don’t need more taxes. Our founding fathers would cringe at the number of people here casually throwing around ‘tax it’. What if we were talking about a caffeine tax?
hogfat on December 5, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Our Founding Fathers established a principle that applies here:
The government has no business interfering with somebody’s decisions unless they are injuring someone else without their informed consent.
Banning abortion is legitimate, because abortion kills another person without their consent. Banning smoking in restaurants is not, because everybody involved knows what smoking does to you, and they have chosen to eat at that restaurant, regardless.
Cocaine and Heroin are not good for you, but most of the problems associated with these drugs are caused by prohibition. Heroin junkies OD because they can’t predict the quality of the goods they buy. Dealers adulterate their products with all sorts of nasty stuff, and unexpected purity kills people. Cocaine and heroin do not leave somebody any more uncontrolled than alcohol, but at their current prices, people will rob and kill to feed their habit. Crack is worse, but the crack problem is likely to disappear as soon as cocaine becomes as cheap as Mad Dog 20/20.
Drugs like PCP, LSD and methamphetamine will result in uncontrolled behavior almost immediately, and can make you dangerous to the people around you.
We don’t need to legalize all drugs, but marijuana, cocaine and heroin should be legalized. After all, if somebody’s use of these drugs does not endanger you: It is not your business.
As a side note, we will need to develop new field-tests for cocaine, heroin and marijuana so cops can detect drivers who are under the influence. However, a few years of coked-up drivers is better than decades of crack dealers shooting their rivals in the streets.
unrepentant-smoker.blogspot.com on December 5, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Until we control our borders there will be no hope for what flows into this country. In Arizona we’ve been screaming for a border fence which our good ole Governor Nappy (Napalitano) kept blocking. Now she’s our Homeland Security gal. Scary.
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Let’s make up another scenario. A crazed dictator is bombing the capitol. As the leader of the nation, do you have 3 or 4 pre-lunch whiskeys followed by 3 or 6 beers during lunch and concluding with a nice port or maybe just a nice dry scotch.
Yes, that’s what Churchill would consume during lunch. He was probably a bit buzzed throughout the war. He should have been dragged out of 10 Downing and forcibly placed into treatment?
Our citizens can drink all they want, so can the president. Although FDR’s martinis reportedly were quite lousy, he also consumed about a liter of booze a day.
Hell, a few bumps might even help the POTUS to remain alert during an extended period in a time of crisis.
Naturally, I’m from the libertarian wing of the GOP. I can wipe my own ass and have no need of crying for my mommy to take care of me.
crashland on December 5, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Arguable one of the stupidest legal concepts evah
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
So is there a speed limit to suicide? Five years or more? Like I say, you can kill yourself through alcohol abuse, chain smoking, fast food diets, or unprotected sex. When do we outlaw all of those?
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I would imagine that the drug networks would pump millions of dollars into political campaigns of politicians in order to keep things just as they are.
Our drug interdiction effort seems to be aimed at catching enough to make it look like we are doing something but not so much as to actually put a dent in the profits of the drug networks.
If we were to legalize those drugs and tax them and control the sale, it would put the criminal networks out of business. They would literally fight to the death to keep those billions of dollars they extract from our economy every year. Any politician voting to repeal those drug laws would likely face all sorts of threats and possibly violence.
Our laws are designed to keep the drug networks in control of a huge cash flow.
crosspatch on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I’m fine with the notion as long as the prosecution and punishment of abusers is perused to the absolute maximum. We cannot extend the current lax, revolving door on enforcement/prosecution of alcohol related crimes to additional drugs. If existing laws are enforced and those found guilty of endangering society are severely punished (actual deterrence, F rehab), responsible adults will continue to be responsible adults.
dmann on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
The President should spend every last second that he’s in office signing pardons for non-violent drug “offenders” and finally do something to redeem himself.
universalagent on December 5, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Slippery slope. Waiting in the on deck circle are ketamine, succinyl choline, opiates, etc. I agree the present system doesn’t work. I also know , based on human nature, a bad precedent would be established, leading to demands for further freedoms and more abuse. Just a thought,..Singapore is a very drug free zone. Cause and effect. We want our cake and eat it too. We don’t want regulatory interference, as indicated by a good share of the above posts. We think if we just give in a little, the problem will be pretty much solved. Like with sharia? Users and thrill seekers will never be satisfied with the present,..they will always want more.
a capella on December 5, 2008 at 1:12 PM
“But should people be left to their own devices and government stay out of the way of their behavior, only intervening when their behavior affects others? Where would that line get drawn, anyway?”
***
Sounds a bit like the gun argument. I’m pro-gun and against marijuana prohibition, but I think it’s really dangerous to start treating all drugs equally. I see no valid reason for marijuana to be illegal, especially considering that it was government propaganda and racism that fanned the flames of its prohibition in the first place.
frode on December 5, 2008 at 1:13 PM
I sincerely doubt that. Look at what they’ve done with cigarettes. They’ve taxed it death, and even Walmart can’t combat that.
If legalized, these drugs would be the new tobacco.
That’s not such a great argument. There’s no reason we couldn’t have a drug test for our president. Currently alcohol is legal. Would you want the president to take a drink of alcohol or five before making a decision about going to war?
I wouldn’t, but that doesn’t mean alcohol should be banned.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:13 PM
You shouldn’t hang out with such lightweights.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Although, on second thought, I would prefer it if Obama would take Coke before dealing with foreign policy. It might make him aggressive enough to actually defend this country.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:14 PM
I’m just watching out for him. Madison’s a good guy.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:15 PM
I agree…we just have to edumacate him..lol
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:16 PM
We legalize heroin, then what? Do you wanna pay the medical bills for the druggie who stumbles into the emergency room having spent his last dime on the fix and then he ODs? (this happens today, but imagine it times 100x) Do you wanna live next door to heroin addicts? Do you wanna have your kids play at their house? What if everyone on your street was an addict but you? It’s legal now, so there’s nothing wrong with it right?
Imagine if even just 10% of your city’s population shoots heroin on the weekends regularly. Do you really believe that doesn’t spell the end of American society?
sweetlipsbutterhoney on December 5, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Bayer used to sell heroin over the counter as a cough suppressant. Coca Cola’s buzz used to be cocaine not caffeine.
America survived (and indeed thrived) during periods when drugs were legal and far more accessible than they are today.
Mike Honcho on December 5, 2008 at 1:17 PM
No joke, as you can only be prosecuted if you fail.
I don’t know, but I would lean towards within an day.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Ed leave this to the experts, the users. Treatment is Prevention.
SAMIAMJAX on December 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
I’m also against the way the government has taxed cigarettes into oblivion for the pure sake of behavior modification. It’s like the idea to make gas eight dollars a gallon to get people to buy hybrids or quit driving.
But the point is: Are smokers creating a crime wave where they rob and steal in order to afford the cigs?
Side note: It’s hard to stop hanging out with my fiancee. Yeah, she’s gotten tipsy on a beer.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Conservatism has little to do with this problem. The consequences of drug use are costly and burdensome to all of society and until someone finds a way to eliminate this burden, society has a right and a responsibility to fight its occurrence. If you insist on taking your drugs feel free to do so. On the other hand, don’t expect me or my fellow citizens to spend one-cent for your rehabilitation or hospitalization. Live free, but don’t do it at my expense.
rplat on December 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Is our children learning?
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
I would agree that the government should at least legalize pot. There’s no argument that you can make against it that doesn’t apply to cigarettes and alcohol. The legalized version could always be regulated for THC content for those of you who think the strains have gotten too strong since the 60s.
sublime on December 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Depends on the drug and the duration of use. Coke and Meth are both temporary gains, but China is well aware of the opposite effect opium produces. Pot would fall into that same category though to a much lesser degree.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:19 PM
LOL Indeed! Arrest, trial & imprisonment are exactly what suicidal people need ;)
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM
They are, I hope…
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Cigarette trucks are stolen in NEW York quite often…
SAMIAMJAX on December 5, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Looks like you have chosen well ;)
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Of course it is. Whenever the govt prevents you from doing something to yourself, for your own good, it’s nanny-statism. Whether it’s outlawing transfats or cocaine, the logic is the same.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:22 PM
aaaaaaannnddddm more stupidity from madison conservative.
wise_man on December 5, 2008 at 1:24 PM
Weird…I have posts vanishing into the ether today…?
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:24 PM
Well… Not exactly.
Look. I don’t want to come off as a whiny, stinky, liberal hippie here (God forbid! *shudder*) But you have a couple historical fact wrong there.
First of all, we need to understand that prior to the 20th century, ANY AND ALL drugs were perfectly legal in the United States. This included: Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin, and Opium. Indeed, an American Icon used to be MADE with Cocaine (That’d be Coca-Cola folks). So let’s not use the “They’ve always been illegal” argument, because that’s patently false.
The Temprance movement of the late 19th century/early 20th century is what changed things in America. They didn’t just focus on Alcohol, they focused on ALL drugs as the Tools of Satan. Now, when it comes to Cocaine and Heroin, I’m inclined to agree with them. However, ANY even mildly addictive mind-altering substance was targeted.
The worst part about Marijuana being targeted is that the Temperance movement found a financial backer in the Cotton industry.
Many southern Cotton companies were just beginning to really recover from the civil war at this time, but were struggling to compete with the Hemp industry that had grown up to supplant Cotton during and immediately after the Civil War. Hemp was and is used for many items INCLUDING a range of textiles which directly competed with Cotton.
The cotton industry found a natural ally with the Temperance movement, and backed them to the tune of millions of dollars. They even produced some crazy early ads showing the “evils” of Marijuana. Ads which suspiciously featured “reefer mad” Black people. There was even a movie, “Reefer madness” which not only told quite a few lies about marijuana, but also promoted a subtle racism that Black people who smoked marijuana couldn’t be trusted. (Marijuana smoking started in the Black community as a byproduct of harvesting Hemp for textiles.)
So the entire Anti-marijuana campaign wasn’t based on science IE: Smoking reefers can cause lung cancer, emphesyema, etc. But was, instead based on outright lies, political and corporate subterfuge, and Racism. In the end it furthered horrible racist stereotypes, (prolonging and deepening the racial divides in our country) killed a viable and profitable business in which America was the World Leader at the time and made illegal a product that is no more dangerous than Alcohol or Cigarettes.
So, logically speaking, we should remove marijuana from the list of Controlled substances. Regulate it like Alcohol and Tobacco, and make some tax money off the hippies that want to smoke it.
As far as the harder drugs are concerned, we need to keep fighting them as they are TRULY dangerous.
wearyman on December 5, 2008 at 1:24 PM
There’s a huge variation in climates between the 50 states (or is it now officially 57, since Obama won?) I’d be very surprised if there is no place in the US where cocoa could be grown.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:25 PM
I usually agree with Ed; but on this issue, I think he just has not walked in my shoes and seen what I have seen as a manufacturing plant safety director.
People who want to legalize drugs that dull mental faculties need to recognize that drug use causes accidents. So does alochol use, but breath tests are easy, quick and non-invasive. Alcohol on someone’s breath is a lot easier to detect than other drugs; so you can at least manage the problem. Other substances require blood tests or hair tests to check and the results take too long to get. Supervisors have to make decisions about sending people home without hard proof; so they tend to let their suspicions go.
Anyone who thinks drug use will not go up once it is legal are kidding themselves. Those who think drug use in the workplace and all the safety, quality and interpersonal conflicts that result from drug use will not go up after legalization are also just kidding themselves. Do you want your children driving cars put together by people who cannot focus on what they are doing? Do you want them working with a crane operator that cannot focus on what he is doing? Do you want to drive in a car with someone who is zonked?
You can say that “well, yeh you shouldn’t use drugs on the job” but, if it is legal, easily available and cheap, they will. You can say “well you should not drive a car while under the influence” but if it is legal, easily available and cheap, they will and often will kid themselves about their condition.
China fought Britain because their legal opium policy was ruining their country. Why would the US be any different.
KW64 on December 5, 2008 at 1:25 PM
The same way we do now.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:26 PM
You don’t fall asleep at the wheel while on coke
LimeyGeek on December 5, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Very true. Synthetic drugs are a big problem today. Drugs in their pure form are manipulated with chemicals into what we have today. Here’s the funny thing about all of this, most drugs were originally used for medicinal purposes, even heroin. It exploded during the first World War due to battle field operation units needing morphine type drugs to get by on. They didn’t have the time to think of what the long-term addictive effects would be. They were just trying to save lives.
Wileygrl3 on December 5, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Dang. I drink beer when I’m the DD. I just don’t enjoy it enough to be able to get even tipsy on it.
Well, you do have to make an exception for her. I rescind my earlier comment.
Yes, but it’s not just that. Smokers are an easy target to any politician who wants more money but doesn’t want to upset constituents.
Of course not, but then again, they’re not as expensive as cocaine would like be, and they’re not as addictive either.
I think the main reason addicts have to resort to crime to purchase their fix actually comes from the fact that they no longer function well enough in society to be able to maintain their jobs. I mean most people don’t go broke when they first try it, so they usually have the means initially.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:26 PM
The same way you penalize those who drive under the influence of alcohol.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:27 PM
When you rob someone, you hurt them.
When you kill someone, you hurt them.
When you defaud someone, you hurt them.
Who else gets hurt if I take currently illegal drugs. Nobody.
If you aren’t hurting someone, it’s none of their business.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:28 PM
Heroin usually kills over time. More than a day. Same with meth.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Drugs should be illegal!!! The only exception being for me..when I’m in Vegas or Miami for sales meetings, or if I find myself in the back of a limo with a herd of strippers…but otherwise, illegal.
Alden Pyle on December 5, 2008 at 1:29 PM
I’m remembering something about a frying pan… and a fire.
The drug war isn’t working well. Drug abuse, mandatory sentencing, and organized crime are major problems. But let’s inject a little realistic planning into this discussion.
A. If drugs are legalized, and the price drops quickly, the law of supply and demand would seem to indicate at least a temporary jump in the number of users and the amount used.
B. Who will be supplying/regulating these drugs? Will a local “Pot-Mart” appear overnight, with safe and legal products? How about a “Meth Depot?” Will these businesses be somehow less vulnerable to lawsuits than the current manufacturers of prescription medications? Will an FDA that can’t adequately test and regulate new blood pressure drugs in less than several years suddenly be able to certify the “safety” of crack in a timely manner?
C. When we are already facing an economic “crisis” do we really want our “worker bees” having easier, more legal access to drugs?
Anyway, with Obama & a Democratic congress & senate I suspect the “hard line” on the drug war will be relaxed anyway.
cs89 on December 5, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Let’s just make everything illegal. That way noone will ever do anything that I disagree with again.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:30 PM
All you can do is insult me, not argue the point. You’re such a little boy.
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:30 PM
All of these problems are do to drugs being illegal. Druggies have to steal to support their habit because the drug war has increased the price of the product 100 fold. Violence. Once again, caused by the fact that the drug traffic must occur outside the legal system. The only method left for resolving conflict is violence.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Yes, but from a practical standpoint, the lower the prices, the less break-ins would be required. You can’t eliminate the crime, you can only reduce it. That’s what we would be aiming for. Do you think the crime rates would be better if cocaine were 400 dollars a gram (with the WOD) or, say, 100 dollars a gram?
MadisonConservative on December 5, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Ed, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for voicing some sanity on this topic. The abysmal failure that the War on (Some) Drugs has become too obvious to ignore but for the willfully ignorant. It has done nothing but enrich violent criminal cartels, swollen our prisons to bursting, corrupted law enforcement (as happens when dealing with victimless crimes) and shredded the 4th Amendment.
I have to quibble with this, though:
You’re buying into drug warrior propaganda. Even these “hard” drugs are far from “deadly.” The vast majority of people who try them never become addicted, let alone are killed by them. Most people quit them of their own accord as they mature out of them in their 30’s. While they are both physically addictive, withdrawal symptoms are generally milder than what most think. They certainly don’t compare with alcohol withdrawal, which can be fatal for some alcoholics.
CTD on December 5, 2008 at 1:33 PM
You are assuming that the current WOD is preventing anyone who wants drugs from getting them. A quick tour of almost any school or college will disuade you from that notion.
MarkTheGreat on December 5, 2008 at 1:34 PM
With a urine test? That doesn’t prove that someone is currently high. It only proves that someone was around pot in the last month.
Heh. That’ll show them how important living is!
I realize I could have written that better, but that’s not what I meant to argue. There’s a difference between something being legal and something being used widely enough that it’s legality is at all an issue.
When these things were legal, they weren’t very widespread, as alcohol was, thus the prohibition on these drugs was quite different from the prohibition on alcohol.
I know. I’ve seen Grass, too.
Esthier on December 5, 2008 at 1:35 PM
This discussion boils down to:
The Social Conservatives vs. the Self-Determinists
Bingo.
Limited government. Try it… you’ll like it.
beatcanvas on December 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM
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