The sadly obligatory SCOTUS birth-certificate post
posted at 10:20 am on December 4, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The Chicago Tribune briefly revives the Obama-birth-certificate kerfuffle in an update today, if only to throw more cold water on it. Tomorrow, the Supreme Court confabs over whether to grant a review to Leo Donofrio’s lawsuit after having it rejected in district and appellate courts:
The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama’s election.
The meeting of justices will coincide with a vigil by the filer’s supporters in Washington on the steps of the nation’s highest court.
The suit originally sought to stay the election, and was filed on behalf of Leo Donofrio against New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells. …
The Obama campaign has maintained that he was born in Hawaii, has an authentic birth certificate, and is a “natural-born” U.S. citizen. Hawaiian officials agree.
The latest buzz surrounds the decision by Clarence Thomas to circulate the appeal petition to the entire court after David Souter rejected it immediately. That really doesn’t mean much, as the Tribune explains. Of the 842 petitions circulated in that manner, only 60 got a spot on the court calendar, and not all of those succeeded. Thomas may have been interested in the technical aspects of the suit rather than the merits, or perhaps it was a slow week.
It does, however, make it news, no matter how much some of us wish it would go away. The state of Hawaii has repeatedly insisted that their records show Obama was born in Hawaii, as the Certificate of Live Birth states. The COLB would get any Hawaii native an American passport with no questions asked, even without the official endorsement of the Republican governor and her Department of Health. There is even a contemporaneous birth announcement in a local paper confirming it.
I’m sure the comments section will fill with various conspiracy theories over Indonesian school records, Kenyan births, and so on. None of it — absolutely none — has any real, solid evidence showing that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii apart from sheer speculation and hearsay, and even less evidence that Obama’s stepfather renounced Obama’s birthright citizenship, which he didn’t have the power to do anyway. It’s a conspiracy theory spun by conspiracy theorists (Philip Berg is a 9/11 truther) who use their normal thresholds of evidence for this meme.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court can’t kill the conspiracy theories. It can only kill the lawsuits, which is what they will almost certainly do tomorrow when they meet.
Update: From October 31:
The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed on Friday what Barack Obama has been saying all along: the presidential candidate was born in Honolulu.
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” said Chiyome Fukino. “State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.”
Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.
“No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii,” Fukino added.
Update II: From the comments, a link to Donofrio’s explanation:
“Don’t be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesia issues. They are irrelevant to Senator Obama’s ineligibility to be President. Since Barack Obama’s father was a Citizen of Kenya and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama’s birth, then Senator Obama was a British Citizen “at birth”, just like the Framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on US soil, he still wouldn’t be eligible to be President.
The Framers of the Constitution, at the time of their birth, were also British Citizens and that’s why the Framers declared that, while they were Citizens of the United States, they themselves were not “natural born Citizens”.
Hence their inclusion of the grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution: No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; That’s it right there. (Emphasis added.)
If so, this is an even dumber argument than first thought. The children of immigrants born in this country are ineligible to be President? Since when does “natural born” refer to the parents of citizens? Natural born means the person at question was born in US territory, and it always has. Immigration-enforcement activists have been trying to change that definition to eliminate the “anchor babies” issue.
Also, adoption only changes the parentage on the birth certificate, not the place, date, or time of birth. I’ve done an adoption myself and can personally attest to that fact. If Obama had been adopted by Mr. Soetero, Hawaii would only have changed the father’s name on the record — and since Barack Obama Sr has been listed on the birth certificate, it appears that Mr. Soetero didn’t adopt Obama anyway.
Update III: As a rebuttal to Update 1, this from the comments:
The paper lied on purpose. The HI Dept of health went of its way to say everything but that. They do have his original birth certificate, but from where?
The State of Hawaii only keeps birth certificates from births in Hawaii. The State of California only keeps birth certificates from births in California, Minnesota only keeps those from births in Minnesota, and so on. They don’t store information on births outside of their state. Why would they bother to do that? Use some common sense.
Update IV: The Honolulu Advertiser reported on the Dept. of Health statement on November 1 in a little more detail:
State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate, including some who have called the department’s registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night.
“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”
So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?
“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”
Fukino issued her statement to try to stomp out persistent rumors that Obama was not born in Honolulu — and is therefore not a U.S. citizen and thus ineligible to run for president.
Fukino, however, repeated the Health Department’s position that state law prohibits her or any other officials from actually releasing the birth certificate, which Obama’s campaign says shows he was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” Fukino said in the statement. “State law (Hawai’i Revised Statutes ¤338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. … No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i.”
I guess they’ll have to wait a little longer to get any work done.
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If you were in intel, you know that on the 398 form, you have to put the birthplace and address of your biological parents. I distinctly recall being questioned verbally about the status of and my (non)relationship with my father at the time of application (mid 80s). So they knew and did not miss it.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:25 PM
I believe he was born in Hawaii.
My problem is with his move to Indonesia when Indonesia did not accept dual citizenship. He went to public school which was only for eligible citizens and was “spoken for”(adopted?) by his stepfather Soetoro. So if he (or his parents) renounced his US citizenship then he would not be a natural born citizen.
Buckeye Babe on December 4, 2008 at 7:26 PM
At least 17 suits and more are being planned. Not only that, FIVE are now in the hands of the Supreme Court. The media silence has been deafening, and embarrassing for those on our side who claim to love the constitution. This situation has really opened my eyes. What else have the conservative media, in their collective wisdom, chosen to ignore? And is their analysis of foreign and financial affairs as weak as their analysis of legal matters?
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:28 PM
OK, If Barrak is proven to be unfit to be President… the fallout…
If Barrak does not meet the Constitutional requirements to be President, what happens will depend on WHEN it is discovered.
Scenario 1: Obama is found ineligible before the Electoral College votes.
If it is discovered before the Electoral College votes, then the College has a mess on its hands. Many states have laws on the books that the Slate must vote for who won on the ballot, but some states do not. So McCain Electors vote for McCain, some are forced to vote for Obama even though he is ineligible, some would vote for a third candidate (Hillary?).
As none of them would hit the 270 votes needed to win, it would then go to the House of Representatives, where each STATE gets one vote, and votes can only be cast for an one of the three who got the most Electoral votes… so McCain gets some, Obama would get none, and most probably Hillary (or whoever got the dem electoral votes) would end up as President.
Scenario 2: Obama is found ineligible after the Electoral College votes, but before the election is certified by the House.
It goes to the House for the vote, as stated above, but because only Obama, and McCain, would have ANY electoral votes, and because Obama is ineligible, McCain would have to win…
Scenario 3: Not found out until AFTER the House certifies the election, but before inauguration.
House is brought into session to decide the President… pretty much follows scenario 2. Pelosi MAY be sworn in as President, but only until a valid President is elected by the House of Reps.
Scenario 4: Obama is found ineligible AFTER inauguration.
Biden becomes President.
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Correct.
I don’t find the Constituion silly at all.
No, but I traveled to both Germany and Japan without any passport at all! I even got to set foot in the old East Germany!
:-)
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Constitution
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:30 PM
If the Court buys Leo Donofrio’s argument, both Obama and McCain are ineligible. Consider the fallout of that scenario.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Not sure, but with no contact with your father, unless you elected to take Kenyan citizenship, you would have lost it at 18 automaticly…
Its kind of esoteric that you could, even now, claim British citizenship if you were born before Kenya was granted independence… like Obama was.
Were you born prior to Kenya being granted independance?
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:32 PM
I was born three weeks after the One.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:33 PM
Wow… good point…
So, if decided before the electors meet? We’d have FOUR people getting electoral votes, Obama, McCain, and two others… who would end up third would be critical… and that would come down to which states force their slate to vote for the one on the ballot….
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:35 PM
LOL…. President Palin anyone???
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:37 PM
I don’t think that Biden will be in the picture for long.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:37 PM
flyfisher at 7:31
Donofrio argues that McCain is ineligible because a military base is not considered US soil. But Blackstone speaking of common law said that the parent’s role as AMBASSADOR confers natural-born citizenship to his/her children even if they are born on foreign soil.
So a Panamanian couldn’t wander onto a US military base and give birth to an anchor baby who was a natural-born US citizen. But the child of an ambassador could be born anywhere in Panama and still be natural-born. Because the allegiance was always to the US.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 7:45 PM
Further, Mr. Vieira cited a fraud ruling in a 1977 case called U.S. v. Prudden, which he feels applies in this case.
“Silence can only be equated with fraud when there is a legal and moral duty to speak
sbark on December 4, 2008 at 7:50 PM
Speaking of fallout, if four justices vote to hear Donofrio’s case tomorrow, the case will move forward. (If that happens will Ed and Allah blog about how Thomas and Scalia are tinfoil conspiracy nuts?) If the case moves forward would order a stay of the electoral college? Or would they push to render a verdict before the EC meets? I’ve got to believe a stay of the electoral college would be explosive. Imagine the shock and anger in some sectors.
This is what happens when the media does not do its job. If Gov. Palin’s father had been Kenyan, the whole country would have intimate knowledge of the “natural born citizen” requirement.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:53 PM
LOL, I’m not really paranoid… but…
My 17 year old daughter is at a 3 day conference in downtown Denver for the next couple of days… she knows this is going to be heard as we’ve talked about it… and I told her that if things get weird, she’s a comin home…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:57 PM
I’m not sure this is so. Both McCain’s parents were citizens, and were out of the country as part of military duty. Obama’s father was the citizen of another country, and I would think the circumstances of his mother being out of the country (vacation, or living elsewhere?) would make a difference. Regardless, we need to face the question no matter the fallout–no one is above the laws, even the President-elect.
DrMagnolias on December 4, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Indeed.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:58 PM
That’s precisely why I believe Donofrio is wrong about McCain’s status. But if they ruled that both Obama and McCain were ineligible I would accept the ruling.
Donofrio has never said it, but my theory is that he filed it the way he did, against three separate candidates, in an attempt to silence those who allege he is politically motivated. And when you hear him interviewed, he is quite politically correct. He argues as strongly against McCain as he does Obama. He has an obvious respect and love for the constitution and the law. I believe he is doing what he sees is right, regardless of the potential fallout.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Yeah… we were just trying to figure out what would happen IF that happened…
Constitution is clear on much of it… not so clear on others… but it would be ugggglllllyyy!
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 8:00 PM
oh my….you rebel you ;-)
rslancer14 on December 4, 2008 at 8:01 PM
Yeah, and put in that guy from Guatamala… who CLEARLY does not meet the constitutional standard to run.
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM
It is definitely so that if the Court agrees with Leo Donofrio, both Obama and McCain are ineligible. Donofrio is very definite in his belief that neither man is qualified and he has filed his case accordingly. The question is whether they will agree with Donofrio in whole, in part, or not at all.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM
Exactly
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM
For your reading pleasure.
***obamacrimes.com
***contrariancommentary.com (Andy Martin) not believable but sometimes funny.
***africanpress.wordpress.com (this one is not credible, they keep putting off releasing a tape, its been two months now) it does not have substance. These are just 3 out of many!
***Late night talk radio, Patriot Brigade if you are a no sleeper. Lan has had Berg,Martin and Dono on there, web site was hacked bad last week. Not fully on line yet.
Some of it is plausible, I cant discount it yet. Too many
lawsuits in play with new ones coming on everyday. Stories of MSM people getting fired wanting to report it. The one thing that is good to see is American people standing up and asking the simple question, “who is this guy and what is he hiding?”
Coastal Paradise on December 4, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Indeed.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Yep. Imagine if you were president elect! Crikey!! The media would have ripped you to shreds.
But tell me this, why do you think BO does not want to release is original, long form birth certificate?
Cody1991 on December 4, 2008 at 8:08 PM
http://www.americasright.com/
this guy is pretty good to… Lawyer who looks at both sides.
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 8:09 PM
So why don’t they just show us the birth certificate and end all of this?
SoulGlo on December 4, 2008 at 8:15 PM
No, you don’t sound rude at all…just stupid.
I linked other sources besides factcheck.org. You just made a fool of yourself posting that ridiculous insult.
I also checked out what flyfisher stated and recommended and commented on that…so that means you look even more foolish.
The head of the state agency, which I have linked a couple of times and no longer have the patience.
Specifically said she can not release the original BC by state law, tangible interest seems to be the benchmark…
You can find it my Googling Obama, birth certificate and look for the Hawaiian paper that carried the story.
Don’t argue with me, write her and tell her she is wrong…I am just reporting what the head of the Health and Services of Hawaii stated…take it up with her.
Yes I know WDN is often wrong, their headlines of Gov. seals records is wrong, she did not seal the records, she had the department confirm they were sealed as per the state law.
Find someone else to harass, you cult guys are tiring…
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Double indeed!
BobAnthony on December 4, 2008 at 8:18 PM
I went out of my way to be polite to you even though it is you that has been a stupid idiot regurgitating your same so-called facts ad nauseum during this entire thread. Tell me why there are copies of long-form Hawaiian BC’s all over the web. Did those people break into the vault and steal them? No, they were given out by the state of Hawaii. Why the hate? I am just a concerned citizen who respects the Constitution and would like to make sure that anyone running for POTUS is qualified to do so. If that makes me a “cult guy” then so be it. Have a nice night.
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Can’t say as I blame you there Romeo13. But out of curiosity, can you specify on things getting weird?
BobAnthony on December 4, 2008 at 8:22 PM
When you post, like Ed and Allah, you don’t have all of the information. You post and let the info. flow.
You guys are way to hard on Ed. He doesn’t know everything, just like you guys don’t know everything. He makes his commentary, then lets it play out.
The truth will wind it way, and if Ed is corrected he will post the correction.
Not so much you fly, but others are calling for Ed’s head, as if he was part of some conspiracy…meanwhile loons are posting weird stuff like Obama having guards at every hospital.
The cultists need to get a calm head…what is in the courts will play out legally…and Ed is a sharp guy, he will revise his posts as the truth comes out.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 8:23 PM
Nope. The far left wouldn’t admit they didn’t know. They’d make up the “truth.” So piss off Dick.
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 8:30 PM
None but idiots or megalomaniacs would run for president.
Like I and others have been saying, he’s handling it this way to string along Republicans and drop the point-and-laugh/racist hammer on us at some point in time. Or…
there’s something disqualifying on the certificate. Does it involve the birthplace? Maybe. But I think there’s something else. But I can’t imagine anything plausible other than those two possibilities.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 8:34 PM
Then don’t fire off some snotty remark, then pretend you are offended when I defend myself.
You saw my links, yet you keep getting confused, that is why I keep posting, even you (who is sick and tired of my same posts) still haven’t don’t understand them.
Here I will say it again…The state cannot release the original BC’s to the public…get it, now if you don’t like that tell the state, not me, I don’t make the rules.
*
You learn real quick in law not to give out all of your information, you let the other guy hang himself…
Obama doesn’t care about you and what you think. If he is taken on by the Republicans in a big show, and he whips out the long form identical to the short…the Republicans look pretty silly. That is why no one of any substance is taking him to court on this. They can’t pursue it…there is no proof that what he has is not accurate.
Get it? You, and the other nuts, reputation means nothing, therefore he (Obama) doesn’t need to answer you…
If your lively hood, your whole reputation depended on it, your family would be made fools if you were wrong, you would not pursue this…if you lose you lose everything. And the odds are in his favor, because he knows what he has, and you don’t.
That is why they will get the info. if the other suits are brought to court. The other lawsuits have a much better chance, and they are based on legal fact, not hope.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 8:37 PM
So very, very many misstatements of fact on this thread. Let’s see if we can straighten some of them out. I hope that I don’t induce any more in the process.
The following will be in the context entirely outside Donofrio’s suit, speaking to the “birth certificate” issues.
There are two different documents that Hawaii can issue with respect to documentation of births. The first and most common, and the one provided by FactCheck and others, is the Certification of Live Birth. This is also referred to as the “short form”.
It’s important to note that this document reflects the CURRENT state of information on file in Hawaii, which is not necessarily the same as the information on the other form. Why is this important? Because Hawaii allows for the amendment of “birth certificates”, particularly when adoptions are involved.
See http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/newbirthcert.html
The other form is the Certificate of Live Birth, sometimes called the “long form” version. It is maintained in vault status, and is not amended. It contains original records and documentation from the location of birth, such as the signature of the attending physician.
Note the naming distinction. Certification of Live Birth = short form. Certificate of Live Birth = long form. In way too many places in this thread, people are referring to a certificate of live birth being released. This is not the case. What has been released is a copy of the CertificaTION of Live Birth.
For an example of what the Hawaii version of the long form typically looks like, see http://snarkybytes.com/?p=521
As has been pointed out, Hawaii will issue Certification of Live Birth certificates even for persons born outside of the state of Hawaii. See, for example:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
Because of the nature of the Hawaii laws, there are some “original birth certificates” on vault-copy file in Hawaii for births that did not actually take place in Hawaii.
One of the pieces of information included on the “long form”, and not subject to later amendment, is the “Attendant” field, where someone signs their name next to the following text: “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above”. There are boxes to indicate MD, midwife, etc.
Since Hawaii allows for the issuance of birth certificates for those born outside the state after the fact, some have put forth a scenario along the following lines: Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya, and when nearing the time of delivery, was prohibited from boarding the flight back to Hawaii. Obama was born in Kenya, his mother flew back after the fact and registered the birth four days later.
If that were the case, Hawaii could very well have on-file a Kenyan birth certificate or other documentation, and a certification of live birth could have been issued, as his mother had been a resident of Hawaii for at least a year prior.
Upon subsequent adoption, his certification of live birth entries could have been modified to reflect different information than what was included on the original documentation.
All of the official statements of Hawaii officials, particularly Fukino, are consistent with this scenario, even if Obama were physically born in Kenya.
(I’m not contending that he was, merely pointing out that nothing that the officials have said contradict that scenario.)
What REPORTERS have claimed is not the same thing as what the officials themselves have said, as marti124 has pointed out several times.
Another misconception that right2bright has been repeating is:
That is not what the statute in question states. Instead, as has been pointed out, the law “prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.” I think the Supreme Court could certainly make the case that they have a tangible interest in determining whether Obama is constitutionally eligible, and thus could likely gain access if they so ordered.
I don’t know where Obama was born. It might very well make a difference, and I do know that his persistent stonewalling on releasing a long-form vault copy of his birth certificate has added massive fuel to this fire. It leads people to the natural conclusion that he has something to hide.
Do either Berg’s or Donofrio’s suits have merit? I don’t know. But I think it is a grave disservice to lump those who question why Obama is so very reluctant to release his long-form birth certificate (along with a massive pile of other records) in with 9/11 Truthers.
There are important constitutional questions at stake here. Whether someone thinks the rule of law actually matters is not a litmus test for Trutherism.
It’s an entirely reasonable observation to point out that (with the notable exception of Donofrio’s suit) the vast majority of this would be utterly silenced by issuing a certified copy of the long-form, unamended birth certificate… and that Obama’s reticence to do so arouses reasonable suspicions.
VekTor on December 4, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Exactly, as usual.
And the risk is too great to pursue…like the game Texas hold’em…the Republicans don’t have the hand to go “all in”, we don’t know what he has…and any good lawyer knows you never ask a question you don’t know the answer to, just ask Marcia Clark and Chris Darden.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Lets just say I remember the LA riots… and being on alert in San Diego when the OJ verdict was read…
Can you imagine what could happen if a bunch of White folk deny Obama the Presidency on a “technicality”?
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 8:43 PM
I agree with you about Ed. I like Ed and believe he does a good job. He is not a part of any conspiracy. In this instance, he is simply misinformed. I think he did a disservice to the legitimate constitutional questions posed by Leo Donofrio when he lumped him in with Philip Berg, when they have very different lawsuits. I recognize these cases run together, so it’s easy to understand why he would be confused.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 8:46 PM
Seems a pretty clear summary to me, and what I think as well. Still can’t figure out why Ed doesn’t see it this way.
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 8:48 PM
No, you’re reporting what A REPORTER CLAIMS the head of the Health and Services of Hawaii stated. As marti124 has pointed out several times before, you seem to rather uncritically do this over and over.
The claims made by reporters do not always jibe with what the principals in a given story actually SAID.
Fukino’s statements have been, by and large, quite judicious… and the subsequent interpretation of reporters (and to an even greater extent, you) have been vastly less so.
VekTor on December 4, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Two words–Oh brother!
Talk about a possible powder keg!
BobAnthony on December 4, 2008 at 8:51 PM
One of the most strange things about this whole mess…
Is that the Obama camp has always tried to stop any discovery on this issue. They constantly argue standing… to get the case tossed instead of just letting it run…
Added to his hesitance to publish his Long Form… its… interesting…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 8:52 PM
Romeo, that’s why I am furious with the media. Here we are one day before the SCOTUS looks at this, trying to figure out the facts – which has taken me about a month to research decently. America can’t process this that fast even if they tried, but throw in the know-nothing and care-even-less moonbats who voted for Obama and they won’t even TRY to understand the legitimate reasons for this case.
THAT is a recipe for violence, and it is the fault of the American media.
I’m so mad I could spit.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 8:53 PM
This is my answer to your accusation of misconception… short cut some posts because I linked and they could read it for themselves…
You guys have to find something else better to do then to point out, and then have what you pointed out undermined by a previous post.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Yep. Have both.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 8:56 PM
LOL, generator is gassed up… food in the fridge and pantry… both trucks gassed up… and the guns are loaded…
Not paranoid, just… prepared….
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Just this morning I listened to a guy describe how Brazil was taken over by leftists. Prophetic, I tell you. Good info at http://www.themidnightsun.org?page_id=792
Part of it is that those on the right are labelled “extreme right”. So they get knocked off the edge. Then whoever is farthest right (once had been the middle) gets labelled “extreme right” so they get knocked off the edge. And it just keeps going.
Fox is being knocked off the edge. Medved and Horowitz have both called this Constitutional issue a fringe issue. Ed calls it that.
I tell you, this world is crazy. I would never have dreamed that David Horowitz would say that a 52-48% popular vote win should be able to undo the requirements of the US Constitution. He says, “The people have spoken.” Dang it, if 52% can change the Constitution just like that, then why the heck has Roe v Wade not been voted out? What do we even HAVE a Constitution for?
If this country should be mad at anybody it’s Obama and the DNC. Obama’s a Constitutional scholar graduating with honors from Harvard. Either he’s a moron or a deliberate deceiver. And the DNC had every chance in the world to find out he was ineligible in plenty of time to still nominate Hillary. Why did they instead waste all that money playing “Chicken” with the Constitution?
Again, I’m so mad I could spit.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Like I and others have been saying, he’s handling it this way to string along Republicans and drop the point-and-laugh/racist hammer on us at some point in time. Or…
there’s something disqualifying on the certificate. Does it involve the birthplace? Maybe. But I think there’s something else. But I can’t imagine anything plausible other than those two possibilities.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 8:34 PM
Hey, baldi! Was looking for your response before calling it a day, so thanks for the reply.
It would seem like a reasonable political tactic to string the Right along to make fools of them/us, however, this has gone on too long. The BO camp has apparently made an investment in opposing the lawsuits which also makes one suspicious.
One is left feeling that there is “something disqualifying on the certificate.” And one is left with the feeling that it’s something big. It must be. The media complained that Palin was placed in a “cone of silence” implying that she had to be sheltered, yet imho, there is more protection placed around Obama. We saw this throughout the campaign.
At first I dismissed the discussions about BO’s eligibility. Berg, to me, was a disgruntled Hillary supporter. However, the subsequent lawsuits have piqued my interest, and I do believe as Flyfisher has pointed out that there are aspects that should be clearly defined.
Not long ago you commented on McCain’s lack of leadership when he did not defend allegations against Palin. I agree completely. It also seems that a true leader would have no problem defending himself rather than obfuscating and side-stepping issues that involve the faith and trust necessary to the leadership position he to which aspires.
There is something so terribly wrong with this picture. I have felt this for several years after I did my own research on Obama. It never occurred to me four years ago that he could actually become president elect.
Sorry to ramble.
Cody1991 on December 4, 2008 at 9:04 PM
Read what you actually WROTE, right2bright. Your claim was that NO ONE can get the BC.
That’s a false claim. I pointed out that the state law only restricts release OF THE INFORMATION to those with a tangible interest.
If there is at least one person that has a tangible interest, then SOME ONE can get the BC.
SOME ONE is not the same as NO ONE.
You may be wrapping yourself around the axle over the concept or misinterpretation of “original”. It’s the INFORMATION on the vault copy of the original that is sought, not the tangible piece of paper.
Certified copies of long-form vault information has been released thousands of times before to thousands of other people, as can be seen by pictures of them that are freely available. Such a release of a CERTIFIED COPY of the “original” long-form vault copy* would be all that would be needed to poke a hole in almost all of this, and is precisely the sort of thing the Supremes might as Hawaii for if they accept a case like Berg’s.
(* – in some cases, the physical original pieces of paper are no longer available, but a legally acceptable substitute such an official michofiche copy is often preserved instead.)
The only real importance of “original” in this context is in the sense that the information contained is UNAMENDED. Hawaii allows for short-form information to be amended, as I pointed out.
That’s not the case with the INFORMATION on the long-form.
VekTor on December 4, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Heh, the difference got me thinking about something, so I checked in my file cabinet. When we requested birth certificates for our twins, they sent one of the nice fancy ones for the older twin, and a plain white one for the second twin. The plain white one has the doctor’s signature and a lot more information than the fancy one – but they’ve both been accepted the same. Now, these are from the state of Maryland, but it got me thinking. They both say Certificate, but they’re different forms. Weird.
I can’t say what I believe at this point in time, but I do agree with those that say he should just release the other form. They’re really not that hard to get… we all have cert. copies in the lockbox, and here in our records by the computer. I’m not ready to don a tinfoil hat, though. I might need that foil for baking this month instead.
Anna on December 4, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Its actualy worse… if you figure that there are about 220 million adults ABLE to vote in the US… Obama only got about 30% of the vote of the potential voters…
With 40% not paying any income tax… and him promising a further bribe (tax relief, or a check from the Gov)… do you wonder how he got elected?
Mandate? I don’t think so…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Romeo at 9:02
But doesn’t it make you mad? People are saying the SCOTUS would never decide to follow the Constitution because it would bring violence. Excuse me, but people who try to undo the law by violence are called terrorists.
We who said “Never again” on 9-11 and just watched a terrible bloodbath in India are ready to roll over for people who think the threat of violence should undo our Constitution.
What have we become?
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:06 PM
I’m with you. Agree on the facts, and share the frustration. To be honest, I don’t think many people give a crap where Obama was born, or how many countries he’s a citizen of. You’re a freaking dinosaur.
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Romeo at 9:06
Exactly! So why is David Horowitz – the one who knows all these connections and what they mean – ready to roll over and play dead with our Constitution? I don’t get it.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:10 PM
LOL… as I said a couple of hundred posts ago, in this very thread…
I’m part of the Fleet Reserve (USN Ret.). My oath to defend the Constitution is still in effect.
That was after being accused of being a Truther, and someone who was like a Jim Jones Cool Aid drinking follower…. in this very thread.
Yes, I’m angry… but I’m not Mad… if you understand the distinction… Anger can be a positive motivator… Mad is usually crazy type anger which is counterproductive…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 9:14 PM
“Hawaii allows for short-form information to be amended, as I pointed out.”
right2bright, here’s a question for you. Do you think that, when the original piece of paper certifying BHO’s birth was signed by the attending physician, that the name on that form said “Barack Hussein Obama II”?
If not, why not… that’s what the “birth certificate” that you’ve been referring to says.
If one of them says one thing, and the other says something different, then how can they be confirmed (as you alleged before) as being “identical”.
If they are not identical, then they contain different information. That’s why people think it’s important to see what the information was AT THE TIME HE WAS BORN, rather than after some kind of process of amendment later.
Some of us are less comfortable with revisionist history than others.
VekTor on December 4, 2008 at 9:17 PM
JiangxiDad at 9:09
Somebody who worked at the law office that served Bill Ayers’ dad’s company (sorry, can’t remember the names) wrote a research paper in 2005? on why the “natural born” requirement should be removed. Argued that the world is such a small place and besides, the media would make sure nobody with ambivalent loyalties to America and her Constitution could ever be elected. America should be accepting of all people… blah, blah, blah.
I read it and all I could think was, “Don’t these people have any clue that there are people all over the world – including in America – who HATE this nation precisely because of our Constitution? What idiot would say we need to forget about loyalty to America? Now more than ever we HAVE to insist on loyalty to America, because it’s such a rare commodity in the world and in the nation!”
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:18 PM
The only real question. The country simply no longer trusts government to do anything at all. Let’s see the original document. Problem and issued solved. Till then this will persist.
JIMV on December 4, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Good point, Romeo.
You know, it’s funny. When I get frustrated about this there’s a guy at church who’s military who calmly (sort of. lol) lets me know that the country is in the hands of good men and women who remember their oath to the Constitution. They will not be stepped over easily. I hope and pray the SCOTUS remembers their oath first and spares our military people some gut-wrenching choices.
I felt literally sick after the election results came in. I felt like I had somehow just peed on every military person laying their lives on the line for this country who may now have to take orders from a Commander-in-Chief against the Constitution.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:24 PM
right2bright is the dumbest troll I have ever seen. He’s like some kind of robot. It’s real, it’s real.
faraway on December 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM
The attempt to do away with the natural born requirement for the Presidency isn’t new. This article in Wikipedia on the topic is replete with inferences of why we should ignore it. Too many people want to ignore it, because they don’t think they’d have success in actually amending the Constitution. I know that’s shocking to some of us, but I get the sense we’re in the minority.
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 9:41 PM
To me it just comes down to this.
There are doubts, serious ones too, that the COLB posted online was altered. If it’s just “cleaning up the scan”, so be it, let’s have the courts simply say that:
“Yes, we have examined the documentation, and Obama is indeed a natural born citizen of the United States.”
There are statements, verified times over, from Obama kin that state they were present for Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., in Kenya.
That’s where the vault copy of the birth cert comes in. Obama didn’t necessarily have to be born in Hawaii to get a COLB prior to 1972. So let’s have the high court examine the vault copy and determine if he meets the requirements set forth in the Constitution.
If the Supreme Court comes back and says:
“We have examined the documents, and they are sufficient to determine that Obama meets the Constitutional requirements to be President.” Then so be it.
I also think that in this day and age, we need a law passed to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. There should be a mandatory filling requirement that establishes a candidate’s actually eligible.
There’s a question, and that’s what the courts are for. These summary dismissals by the lower courts have forced this course, we’re on it now, so let’s just see it through.
Jason Coleman on December 4, 2008 at 9:42 PM
I agree. I’ve been following this story for months. At first I didn’t think much of it, but the longer it has gone on without just simply producing the original for examination, the more suspicious it becomes.
INC on December 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM
JianxiDad at 9:41
We have only to look at the expectations of Kenyans right now to realize that they expect Obama’s loyalty.
We have only to look at Obama’s book to see that he is at LEAST as loyal to his father’s heritage as he is to his absent mother’s.
We have only to look at the “church” he attended for 20 years where they have to pledge loyalty to the “motherland” (Africa) and to Wright’s education friends who Barack Obama’s CAC paid to teach Black students “rites of passage” and to not call themselves Americans since America raped them…. to see he considers his Kenyan ancestry above his American.
We have only to look at what Obama said about our Constitution and about a judge’s duty to follow “fairness” rather than the actual Constitution to see that he can’t take the oath required of the President, to uphold the Constitution (especially if he’s not even Constitutionally eligible).
There are a LOT of reasons why the natural-born requirement CAN be absolutely vital. Some who aren’t natural born might still have undivided loyalty to America. But Obama leaves us no doubts that he is the very divided-loyalty President the Founding Fathers may have been worried about. Wise folks they were.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 9:55 PM
“there’s something disqualifying on the certificate. Does it involve the birthplace? Maybe. But I think there’s something else. But I can’t imagine anything plausible other than those two possibilities”
TOTALLY jmo, but the actual certificate, not the farces that have been foisted on us so far, could contain one or more of the following tidbits:
* ann was not married to barry sr.
* barry sr. is not the bio-dad
* father’s race is listed not as african but “arab” or something equally incongrougous
disqualifying? perhaps not. embarrassing? perhaps.
But as been said to death here, his REFUSAL to put the thing to rest only fans the flames, to HIS detriment …
Buckaroo on December 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
I am looking through the Hawaii Freedom of Information rules.
It looks like anyone can request personal information on “deceased” people. Maybe the way to look into Obama is to do a FOIA request of certain documents of his Mom – like Hawaii adoption papers.
faraway on December 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Good point… I was trying to get into Marriage / Divorce and adoption records earlier tonight… didn’t get to far though…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 10:05 PM
You may have something there. How would someone go about doing that? Do you feel brave?
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Wow, that’s a great idea, faraway! Or maybe like her hospitalization records. In those days a woman was in the hospital for a week after giving birth. I don’t know, though. Maybe hospital records aren’t for public consumption. You know, though – divorce records are. That’s how Obama got elected for Senate in IL. Hmm…
Maybe somebody should contact Andy Martin… It would probably take too long though.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:08 PM
“mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM”
knock yerself out —
Buckaroo on December 4, 2008 at 10:09 PM
I just e-mailed the suggestion to Andy Martin.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:12 PM
href=”http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/elig_vrcc.html”>
Buckaroo on December 4, 2008 at 10:14 PM
What is that, Buckaroo?
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:15 PM
http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135
check out the link… you’ll find it… interesting…
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 10:16 PM
sorry — the link button and i are NOT getting along tonite!
:-(
Buckaroo on December 4, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Yeah, I saw that one earlier. I hope they have the faces blurred on any videotape they put out.
I suppose they could still claim he was born at home. After all, they’ve been changing their story about which hospital it was all along…
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:19 PM
VekTor on December 4, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Nice and clear posting of the issues. One thing new in the subsequent postings is the idea that one can get at a Hawaii citizen’s BC after one is deceased. That means that someday we will know the truth. I don’t have the link but some lawyers wrote in one piece that any law that Obama signs as President, anyone convicted of a violation of such law, that that person would have standing to pursue the issue of the BC in court for one’s defense, for if proven invalid, any law signed by him would be invalid. The same article (I think it was a link at Atlas Shrugs blog) said plenty of lawyers are awaiting the first bill signed by Obama for a subsequent indictment against a violator of the signed law. That same article said that the lawyers in such a case could subpoena Hawaii for a copy of Obama’s BC then. They could also subpoena Obama’s College Transcripts too. This issue will not go away, sooner or later the truth will prevail. It may become the biggest story of this century after 9-11.
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 10:21 PM
What’s funny is that Andy Martin thinks Frank Marshall Davis is Obama’s father. In Donofrio’s argument, that would be the only thing that would make him eligible. The embarrassing thing Martin thinks Obama is hiding on his birth certificate… could be the only thing that would salvage his election.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:23 PM
This is the brilliance of the fraud. He knew that having the MSM, the FEC and a good legal team on his side should eliminate the issue during the election process. He just needed to post some decent scanned stuff online to create believable ObamaTruth (in a Dreams of My Father sense) then use the HopeChange mantra on voters looking for a secular messiah. If it worked, he would never be stopped on a “silly technicality” after the election was won.
The SCOTUS is the only wildcard, but I think he gambled correctly and they will do nothing wild.
BELIEVE
econavenger on December 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM
Google is currently preventing google searches for entries at Atlas Shrugs Blog (who has done a lot of research on the Obama Birth Certificate issue — this was reported at WND and confirmed by myself via google search attempts) – yet yahoo search works — I found this entry page at her blog for a lot of good research on the issues:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/obamas_birth_certifcate_forgery/
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 PM
SCOTUS has been avoiding defining “natural born” for 200 years. If they don’t take care of this problem now, we’ll have more fights over eligibility in the future. Also, if we wait for a more liberal court to define it, they’ll decide that all citizens of the world are natural born Americans.
Buddahpundit on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Very, very interesting. Atlas Shrugs has a cache snapshot of Obama’s own web site that states when he was born, he had dual citizenship — see http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/obama-admits-th.html — furthermore, that web site still has the same admittance – see http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate – I quote from that page below…
FactCheck.org Clarifies Barack’s Citizenship
“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 10:35 PM
If SCOTUS doesn’t require that NJ law be followed in a federal election then the First Amendment right of the people to “petition the Government for a redress of grievances” is gone.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Didn’t she claim that Malcolm X was Obama’s father?
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Even IF this suit has merits and IF Obama is ineligible, I don’t see the SCOTUS taking up this case. Too much shyte to hit the fan.
aikidoka on December 4, 2008 at 10:40 PM
I’m getting more than a little tired of all your accusations that anyone interested in resolving this issue is some kind of kook.
As someone said earlier, since when has wanting to make sure that someone about to be President Elect is eligible to be President some form of wackiness?
Not only that, you don’t seem to be reading all the thread.
For instance, you keep bringing up what a newspaper said the Hawaiian officials said. And people keep giving you quotes, of EXACTLY what the Hawaiian officials said, and nowhere did they say anything other than there is a document on hand in accordance with law.
Yet you quote the same quote back, apparently without actually realizing they don’t tell you what is on that long form. And then browbeat people for not imagining something in the quote that isn’t there! *boggles*
I don’t appreciate being called a “cultist” or any of the many insults you’ve thrown around in this thread. You seem to be terribly wired into this, enough to call people names. And I wonder why you are. Are you married to Ed or something?
Why should we be expected to prove that Obama is eligible? He is the only one who can prove that, and he is the one who SHOULD prove that. Obviously.
And in my opinion, anyone – blogger or otherwise – who is worried more about what people may think of him for discussing the issue cares more about his image than upholding the Constitution is no patriot.
“Egg on face” is totally beside the point. There IS no “egg on face” for anyone trying to uphold the Constitution and make sure the president is eligible – regardless of what the outcome is.
There can’t be, because there is nothing shameful about upholding the law in the first place.
The only shame is on the man who refuses to provide the documents. Not on those asking that he does.
If the court does consider any of these suits (and I highly doubt they will dare to), and if it turns out Obama has a problem with eligibility (and my guess is that he does not), then the egg will be on YOUR face. (And a lot of other people’s.)
For dismissing something you don’t even understand, and have not researched.
This whole deal is totally phenomenal to me. We can all lay our hands on our long-form birth certificates. We have a president-to-be who refuses to.
And yet those of us who want to see it are the wacky ones?
Deranged. Pure and simple.
Alana on December 4, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Frank Marshall Davis I think was the claim of who Obamas real father was supposed to be. Rumour has it thats why Obama doesnt want his BC shown.
So are we talking a Biden/Pelosi ticket here if by some odd weird 1000-1 chance this citizenship issue goes through?
canditaylor68 on December 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Faraway, if you’re still here – do you have the link for that? I e-mailed Andy Martin with it and he e-mailed back asking for more information. Do you have the link where you were looking?
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Once again, the Capt attempts to Pooh-Pooh an issue, to show how unbiased he is; once again, he is wrong, of course.
It’s very simple, really.
If there wasn’t something to hide, Obama would have released his Original Birth Certificate to the media, years ago.
John McCain released his, as well as ALL records asked, Obama, this is what he has REFUSED to release so far:
Missing docs:
Original, vault copy of Certificate of Live Birth in the USA — Not Released
Certificate of Live Birth — Released – Proven Counterfeit (Atlas here)
Obama/Dunham marriage license — Not released
Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released
Soetoro adoption records — Not released
Fransiskus Assisi School School application — Released
Punahou School records — Not released
Selective Service Registration — Released – Proven Counterfeit
Occidental College records — Not released
Passport (Pakistan) — Not released
Columbia College records — Not released
Columbia thesis — Not released
Harvard College records — Not released
Harvard Law Review articles — None (maybe 1, Not Signed)
Baptism certificate — None
Medical records — Not released
Illinois State Senate records — None (Locked up to prohibit public view)
Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost (All other Illinois state senators’ records are intact)
Law practice client list — Not released
University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
I’ve said all along, I personally believe that Obama was born in Hawaii.
I’m not a Lawyer, and not a Constitutional Law “expert”; so I cannot comment rationally on supposed British or Kenyan citizinship for Obama, or what happens if he really was adopoted by his step-father, etc.
But just because I cannot comment legally on it, doesn’t mean that others cannot, and some pretty smart, qualified people, have taken a look at this, and said that it’s an issue that is rotting from the head down.
Again, IF Obama had nothing to hid, REALEASE THE ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
It’s. that. simple.
Since he wont’, it means he IS hiding something, I just don’t know what; but I DO want to know, only because he’s trying to hide it.
For the Capt’n to Pooh-Pooh the issue however, is silly.
If, and I say “IF” Obama is not Constitutionally Qualified, it is as serious a Constitutional Crisis as we’ll have had in this country’s history; and that is not an issue to be treated or dismissed cavalierly, as the Capt is doing with it!
Dale in Atlanta on December 4, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Is that Act an American law? And if so, can you (or AS) quote the line which states that this law applied to children born in the US? (If it’s not an American law, then it’s irrelevant, assuming that O was born in Hawaii.)
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Google controls? Interesting. I also believe Google aids the govt in user search data too. Nice.
johnnyU on December 4, 2008 at 10:46 PM
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Here Earthfrisk
HOSPITALS IN HAWAII TO OBAMA YOU WERE NOT BORN HERE
Queens Medical Center in Honolulu – Obama and Mom Never Here
Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children – Obama and Mom Never Here
AND OTHERS…
canditaylor68 on December 4, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Actually, Pam of Atlas Shrugs did theorize that Malcolm X might be Obama’s father.
:::shrugs:::
Wouldn’t either circumstance make him legal (assuming that he wouldn’t be if O Sr. were his father)?
Seriously, Junior’s playing us.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 10:55 PM
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM
I believe your questions is what Donofrio is attempting the court to answer. His own reading of the law is that it does negatively impact Obama’s constitutional eligibility.
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 10:55 PM
I don’t see any basis on which to call the Director of Hawaii’s Health Department, Chiyome Fukino, a liar. She’s seen the document, she’s familiar with what the various notations on a Hawaii birth certificate mean, and she says Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. End of discussion for me. What’s the evidence that she’s acting in bad faith? I see none. All I see is ODS.
RBMN on December 4, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Interesting, isn’t it, Canditaylor?
Does anybody have a link to the information about Hawaii’s rules for FOIA requests? Where it shows anybody can request info on a deceased person? That would be helpful to Andy Martin possibly.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM
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