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The sadly obligatory SCOTUS birth-certificate post

posted at 10:20 am on December 4, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The Chicago Tribune briefly revives the Obama-birth-certificate kerfuffle in an update today, if only to throw more cold water on it.  Tomorrow, the Supreme Court confabs over whether to grant a review to Leo Donofrio’s lawsuit after having it rejected in district and appellate courts:

The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama’s election.

The meeting of justices will coincide with a vigil by the filer’s supporters in Washington on the steps of the nation’s highest court.

The suit originally sought to stay the election, and was filed on behalf of Leo Donofrio against New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells. …

The Obama campaign has maintained that he was born in Hawaii, has an authentic birth certificate, and is a “natural-born” U.S. citizen. Hawaiian officials agree.

The latest buzz surrounds the decision by Clarence Thomas to circulate the appeal petition to the entire court after David Souter rejected it immediately.  That really doesn’t mean much, as the Tribune explains.  Of the 842 petitions circulated in that manner, only 60 got a spot on the court calendar, and not all of those succeeded.  Thomas may have been interested in the technical aspects of the suit rather than the merits, or perhaps it was a slow week.

It does, however, make it news, no matter how much some of us wish it would go away.  The state of Hawaii has repeatedly insisted that their records show Obama was born in Hawaii, as the Certificate of Live Birth states.  The COLB would get any Hawaii native an American passport with no questions asked, even without the official endorsement of the Republican governor and her Department of Health.  There is even a contemporaneous birth announcement in a local paper confirming it.

I’m sure the comments section will fill with various conspiracy theories over Indonesian school records, Kenyan births, and so on.  None of it — absolutely none — has any real, solid evidence showing that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii apart from sheer speculation and hearsay, and even less evidence that Obama’s stepfather renounced Obama’s birthright citizenship, which he didn’t have the power to do anyway.  It’s a conspiracy theory spun by conspiracy theorists (Philip Berg is a 9/11 truther) who use their normal thresholds of evidence for this meme.

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court can’t kill the conspiracy theories.  It can only kill the lawsuits, which is what they will almost certainly do tomorrow when they meet.

Update: From October 31:

The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed on Friday what Barack Obama has been saying all along: the presidential candidate was born in Honolulu.

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” said Chiyome Fukino. “State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.”

Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

“No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii,” Fukino added.

Update II: From the comments, a link to Donofrio’s explanation:

“Don’t be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesia issues. They are irrelevant to Senator Obama’s ineligibility to be President. Since Barack Obama’s father was a Citizen of Kenya and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama’s birth, then Senator Obama was a British Citizen “at birth”, just like the Framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on US soil, he still wouldn’t be eligible to be President.

The Framers of the Constitution, at the time of their birth, were also British Citizens and that’s why the Framers declared that, while they were Citizens of the United States, they themselves were not “natural born Citizens”.

Hence their inclusion of the grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution: No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; That’s it right there. (Emphasis added.)

If so, this is an even dumber argument than first thought.  The children of immigrants born in this country are ineligible to be President?  Since when does “natural born” refer to the parents of citizens?  Natural born means the person at question was born in US territory, and it always has.  Immigration-enforcement activists have been trying to change that definition to eliminate the “anchor babies” issue.

Also, adoption only changes the parentage on the birth certificate, not the place, date, or time of birth.  I’ve done an adoption myself and can personally attest to that fact.  If Obama had been adopted by Mr. Soetero, Hawaii would only have changed the father’s name on the record — and since Barack Obama Sr has been listed on the birth certificate, it appears that Mr. Soetero didn’t adopt Obama anyway.

Update III: As a rebuttal to Update 1, this from the comments:

The paper lied on purpose. The HI Dept of health went of its way to say everything but that. They do have his original birth certificate, but from where?

The State of Hawaii only keeps birth certificates from births in Hawaii.  The State of California only keeps birth certificates from births in California, Minnesota only keeps those from births in Minnesota, and so on. They don’t store information on births outside of their state.  Why would they bother to do that?  Use some common sense.

Update IV: The Honolulu Advertiser reported on the Dept. of Health statement on November 1 in a little more detail:

State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate, including some who have called the department’s registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night.

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”

So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.

Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?

“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

Fukino issued her statement to try to stomp out persistent rumors that Obama was not born in Honolulu — and is therefore not a U.S. citizen and thus ineligible to run for president.

Fukino, however, repeated the Health Department’s position that state law prohibits her or any other officials from actually releasing the birth certificate, which Obama’s campaign says shows he was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” Fukino said in the statement. “State law (Hawai’i Revised Statutes ¤338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. … No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i.”

I guess they’ll have to wait a little longer to get any work done.


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right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:21 PM

I was just playing devil’s advocate with that one… although I can see why the grandparents would fudge a birth anouncement. Mine was fudged, to make it look like I had been born in wedlock.

To be honest, this thread is fascinating.

Anna on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

The entire issue was started by leftist bloggers trying to unseat McCain as a presidential candidate. It is being spurred on by the wording used in S.Res. 511 which states:

Whereas the Constitution of the United States requires that, to be eligible for the Office of the President, a person must be a “natural born Citizen” of the United States;

Whereas the term “natural born Citizen”, as that term appears in Article II, Section 1, is not defined in the Constitution of the United States;

Whereas there is no evidence of the intention of the Framers or any Congress to limit the constitutional rights of children born to Americans serving in the military nor to prevent those children from serving as their country’s President;

Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the “natural born Citizen” clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress’s own statute defining the term “natural born Citizen”;

Whereas the well-being of all citizens of the United States is preserved and enhanced by the men and women who are assigned to serve our country outside of our national borders;

Whereas previous presidential candidates were born outside of the United States of America and were understood to be eligible to be President; and

Whereas John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens on an American military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That John Sidney McCain, III, is a “natural born Citizen” under Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.

Clinton, Obama Sponsor McCain Citizenship Billrding used in S. Res. 511.

canditaylor68 on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

Any chance that Obama was born at home instead of in a hospital? And maybe that’s why there’s no hospital birth certificate?

jim m on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

jim m on December 4, 2008 at 5:24 PM

I think the lawsuit is deeper than that statute.
That will be decided by constitutional attorneys…not by you Googling.
flyfisher seems to have a handle on it.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

canditaylor68 on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

Carried on by Berg, a Hillary supporter and an 9/11 truther. He knows how to develop a cult of followers using shiny objects…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:29 PM

Any citizen of the USA can get a passport – regardless of where they were born! However, it sure looks like Obama’s people, as far back as early 2006, have looked into the inconvenient U.S. Constitutional requirement for a POTUS to be a “natural born” citizen – a requirement that it increasingly appears he does not meet. What is equally disturbing is that it would appear that they are following the premise of: If the facts do not support the theory, destroy the facts! I want the truth! Even Pravda raises Obama eligibility issue: http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82647 – and,
An associate lawyer in a Chicago-based firm whose partner served on a finance committee for then-Sen. Barack Obama has advocated for the elimination of the U.S. Constitution’s requirement that a president be a “natural-born” citizen: http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82680

bmac727 on December 4, 2008 at 5:31 PM

Many posters are confused about the Constitutional Term, “Natural Born Citizen”. The legal article here should be read by all:

http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html

Defining Natural-Born Citizen
By P.A. Madison on November 18, 2008

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 5:33 PM

I don’t know why anyone but nut cases would worry about the president once enrolling in a school in Indonesia under a different name and identified as a Muslim where he was likely adopted and therefore became a citizen there and thus ineligible to be elected POTUS.

For contrast, where are the records on the Bork and Thomas hearings??? There were nits you couldn’t even see being picked! Hmmmmmmm?

IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 5:33 PM

I was just playing devil’s advocate with that one… although I can see why the grandparents would fudge a birth anouncement. Mine was fudged, to make it look like I had been born in wedlock.

To be honest, this thread is fascinating.

Anna on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

You wouldn’t be the first baby born after 3 months…It’s a miracle!!!
It is fascinating to see how the mind of a cult worshiper works, they really get entrenched.
What I would be more interested in is if Obama was found to be legally ineligible…what would happen?
The options are mind boggling, from riots, to legal battles, it would be like watching a car race…you don’t want anyone to get hurt, but it is pretty cool to see an awesome accident…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:33 PM

Makes me wonder if Obama was being crafty and dragging the whole thing out to make the right look unhinged…

ErikTheRed on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 AM

Hello? McFly?

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:34 PM

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:06 PM

I don’t want to get caught up in the whole birth certificate argument because I believe the real action centers around the natural born issue. However, I believe the COLB posted on the net is probably as bogus as a football bat. And I believe he is in fact hiding something. But I have no idea what that something is. That said, I have seen no credible evidence he was born anywhere other than Hawaii. I have always believed he does not want his long form birth certificate out there because he has lied about his bio or there is something he is embarrassed about.

One fact that fascinates me is that Philip Berg filed his lawsuit in August. Immediately Obama began fighting the suit on legal technicalities like standing. He did not answer interrogatories. He did not turn over documents. Most candidates with nothing to hide would not have taken the gamble he took for fear it would blow up in their face and ruin their election chances. Imagine the coup it would have been if the federal judge had examined the long-form birth certificate and settled this in his favor once and for all mere days before the election. Obama chose not to allow the judge to make that ruling, relying on his standing argument instead. Inquiring minds want to know why.

The only reason I commented about the birth announcement is that some with limited brain power have seized on that as if it proves he was born in Hawaii when it does no such thing. It is merely a piece of evidence that must be taken into consideration in light of all other evidence. It is not “proof.”

I can’t remember if I said this above or not, but Leo Donofrio has said that Cort Wrotnowski has a stronger case than he does. I don’t know the facts or legal issues in Cort’s action, all I know is that Leo Donofrio has said he has a very strong brief.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 5:35 PM

As I was driving home from work I did hear radio station WICC 600 in Bridgeport during their local 4:00 news (they are an IRN-USA Affil) mention this. But as expected it was a rip and read, not even realizing that there is a CT Connection to this in Greenwich native Cort Wrotnowski.

And what else would one expect from the Obama loving fascist media but a Pro-Obama bias riddled to the gills with so many errors, all the red Flair pens in the world would run dry. Donofrio’s site has also posted “reports” by MSNBCDNCTV and The KC Red Star, both of which have been [rightly so] blasted.

BobAnthony on December 4, 2008 at 5:36 PM

Oh, I have no doubt Obama was born in Hawaii. However, there’s something on that certificate he doesn’t want us to see. I’d like to know what it is.

Kafir on December 4, 2008 at 5:39 PM

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 5:33 PM

So when I posted this could be the slippery slope to denying citizenship to anchor babies, I was right?
The father would have to be proved not to be under the duress or power of another country, that is a citizen…
This has big implications towards Obama…plus several million other immigrants.
Am I reading that correct?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:43 PM

I’ll defer to family members who were at the hospital when/where he was born.

Christien on December 4, 2008 at 5:48 PM

Obama’s natural-born (as opposed to naturalized) status is in question because his father was Kenyan.

hawksruleva on December 4, 2008 at 11:43 AM

No it’s not but Ed has ably refuted this already.

If so, this would also disqualify Bobby Jindal.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:49 PM

Obumble could put this to bed for $10. What’s he hiding?

AZDREAMER on December 4, 2008 at 5:50 PM

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 5:35 PM

Trust me, I did this with Mormon’s last year, with Romney Mitt-wits, with Huck…I am more attacking the cult mentality then the actual event.
He is hiding something, it can’t be that is was out of wed-lock because quite frankly that would have endeared him even more.
But I am more intrigued by the cult of the whole thing (he has guards at the hospitals)…even when face with absolute facts (like he would have used a Power of Attorney, if for nothing else to keep his hands clean), some people deny. Others, like anna, just wonder and probe.
It whiles away a day I wasn’t feeling well…
I am more interested in this anchor baby sidebar.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:50 PM

Let’s leave well enough alone because just think what it means if Obama is disqualifed to serve as president.


4 years of Biden!

Herb on December 4, 2008 at 5:52 PM

However, I believe the COLB posted on the net is probably as bogus as a football bat.

That is where I disagree with you, it may not be totally accurate (or not substantiated, which I tend to lean towards), but it came from the state.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:53 PM

4 years of Biden!

Herb on December 4, 2008 at 5:52 PM

C’mon, you couldn’t buy that entertainment…by the way it would be just 3 years the way Biden counts…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:54 PM

If so, this would also disqualify Bobby Jindal.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:49 PM

Is Alaska considered part of the U.S.?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM

Any chance that Obama was born at home instead of in a hospital? And maybe that’s why there’s no hospital birth certificate?

jim m on December 4, 2008 at 5:27 PM

I’ve wondered the same thing. But if that’s the case, why hasn’t he simply come out and said so? Do you know how a person born at home gets a birth certificate? I don’t.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 5:57 PM

I wonder how many Kenyans born 40+ years ago were given birth certificates back then.

Christien on December 4, 2008 at 5:59 PM

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:53 PM

Have you seen that video linked from Worldnetdaily last week that dissects the COLB issue? They claim the guy who made the video has a PhD and is some kind of document expert. I readily admit I know nothing about the guy (and I believe he is using a fake name for security reasons), but he makes some compelling points in his video. Until I saw his video I took the COLB at face value.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

Ed, why did you post this? Never mind, it’s fairly obvious: for the hits, based on your email volume. Slow, defeated season, this, and whatever it takes to drive traffic….

It’s an embarassemnt. A link to…the Chicago Tribune? Wonderfully unbiased sourse, that. On par with the NY Times in this case.

A follow-on update based on the authoritarian opinion of… Ed Morrisey, noted Constitutional scholar?

I don’t think this Supreme Court case is going anywhere either, but not for the reasons your uninformed opinions suggest.

Show us where the issue of “natural born” has been adjudicated in the context of a presidential candidate. Hint: it hasn’t, because it has never been an issue before.

Show us your extensive research into Hawaii’s birth certificate practices, and what a Certification of Live Birth actually represents.

And finally, let me give you an example of where all this is going, from a canned-response email from my Republican senator, Mel Martinez: “The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.”

Think on that, Ed: qualifications are determined by voters. The winner of a popularity contest trumps Constitutional qualifications. It’s all good, isn’t it, as long as the Chicago Tribune says so?

Nichevo on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

I wonder how many Kenyans born 40+ years ago were given birth certificates back then.

Christien on December 4, 2008 at 5:59 PM

That’s an interesting comment.
I think birth is so important, for many reasons, that they probably did have some records.
They have records of birth and death for thousands of years, in most every culture. They are usually the most complete…often for tax purposes.
But what was happening 40 years ago in Kenya?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:03 PM

Round and round we go,

Thanks a lot, B H O.

I think it’s time for me to quit

Trying to sift through all this shit.

hillbillyjim on December 4, 2008 at 12:32 PM

Thread winner.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:03 PM

Ed. Do not be so silly. There are only three constitutional requirements to be president of the United States. All can be satisfied by production of a birth certificate.

There is something truly f…..g wrong when those wanting proof of eligibility are considered kooks.

davod on December 4, 2008 at 6:03 PM

Nichevo on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

That letter from Sen. Martinez was shameful. Americans have elected know-nothings for decades and it has caught up with us.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:04 PM

Nichevo on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

Killjoy…must be a Lizard People…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:04 PM


Makes me wonder if Obama was being crafty and dragging the whole thing out to make the right look unhinged…

ErikTheRed on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 AM

Hello? McFly?

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:34 PM

he can unfortunately rely on the tendencies of the “base” for this sort of strategy, such as it is now that the “rinos” have been purged and only the “real” conservatives remain.

eh on December 4, 2008 at 6:05 PM

If so, this would also disqualify Bobby Jindal.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:49 PM

Is Alaska considered part of the U.S.?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM

Um, sure. Why do you ask?

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:06 PM

Suppose BHO would have to make a decision to initiate military force to protect this country. What if one of our enemies comes up with evidence that BHO is not qualified to be POTUS right at that time? Suppose the matter is taken to the UN. Even if the UN couldn’t do anything or the VP would have to step up to the plate or whatever….WHAT A MESS that would be! How about blackmail? We need to get to the bottom of this ASAP. I resent the fact that BO will not give us any info so this can be put to rest. Does he get a kick out of being able to torment average American citizens? He may think this is funny but I’ve had enough. Just show the vault BC and put this thing to bed if there’s nothing to hide.
And Ed, you better get your nose checked out because something really stinks and you can’t even tell.

infidelgranny on December 4, 2008 at 6:06 PM

… and Hillary Clinton is still Constitutionally ineligible
to become Secretary of state

corona on December 4, 2008 at 6:06 PM

I know plenty of people born in developing countries who have no birth certificate and are not even sure of their actual DOB.

Christien on December 4, 2008 at 6:06 PM

At the time Obama was born, Kenya was British, and hence his dad was a British Subject and his offspring, regardless where born, got British nationality, making Obama a dual-citizen. This is the legal issue of the one law suit, that “natural-born” requires the person not be a dual-citizen at birth. Read the material at the web pages I earlier cited above.

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:07 PM

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

No, but because I have such a limited understanding, and know I can be fooled I stay away from things that use shiny objects and that are “experts”.
Fire doesn’t melt steel either…
I will hunt it down upon your suggestion…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:07 PM

I was born under the exact same conditions but I’m not a dual citizen.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

Nichevo, if all you need are voters, why do you have a Constitution?

MrX on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

“I know plenty of people born in developing countries who have no birth certificate and are not even sure of their actual DOB.”

Which is one of the reasons people like this have problems getting security clearances in the US.

davod on December 4, 2008 at 6:09 PM

I wonder how many Kenyans born 40+ years ago were given birth certificates back then.

Christien on December 4, 2008 at 5:59 PM

That’s an interesting comment.
I think birth is so important, for many reasons, that they probably did have some records.
They have records of birth and death for thousands of years, in most every culture. They are usually the most complete…often for tax purposes.
But what was happening 40 years ago in Kenya?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:03 PM

I’ve read that when Jerome Corsi went to Kenya he was told their Obama records are sealed. I don’t know if Dr. Corsi ever actually asserted that, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume he did. Since Obama never lived in Kenya, what could they possibly have to seal?

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:09 PM

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

For the record, I’m not saying I believe it. All I’m really saying is that it made me wonder. WND is not the most reliable website in the world. They are too willing to accept the fantastic.

I will reiterate for one and all: the birth certificate is interesting to discuss, but it’s a smokescreen.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:13 PM

What if this involved a Republican winner? The left would be screaming every second of every day.

NOTE TO BARACK : WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO KEEP IT SECRET. YOU CAN AUTHORIZE ITS INSPECTION AND RELEASE.

Why not? Unless the one put out by your people was faked and it would become obvious.

And don’t forget your medical records, too, not just that note from your doctor – the kind that suffices when kids are absent from school.

AmericanDad on December 4, 2008 at 6:21 PM

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

It does not matter with you, you are not running for President. This is not something an ordinary person is aware about or concerned about, even if they have dual citizenship — it is irrelevant for all but someone running for US President. This is not something that one is officially communicated to individually about which is why you state such.

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

What if he was born in mid-air, on an Indonisian airliner flying to Honolulu, but was less than halfway there?

Anyone thought of that gem yet?

Gunslinger on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Both of my children were born at home in Michigan. We had midwives there to help. Before the midwives left our house they put my childrens’ feet on an ink pad and printed that onto a document. We filled the document out and they witnessed it,etc. We hadn’t decided on a name for our second child so after her birth we filled in that part later. No kidding. I also called the local newspaer and told them I had given birth at home. I gave the name, gender, vital stats, date and my husband’s and my name. No one checked up on this. Why should they? My kids could have been born in Canada and no one reading that newspaper birth announcement would have been the wiser. That’s why I know that BHO’s newspaper announcement doesn’t mean squat. It doesn’t mention the hospital he was born in, does it? Anyone could have called BHO’s birth announcement in to the Honolulu Advertiser. His granny, the butcher, the baker, the mailman….

infidelgranny on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM

No, but because I have such a limited understanding, and know I can be fooled I stay away from things that use shiny objects and that are “experts”.
Fire doesn’t melt steel either…
I will hunt it down upon your suggestion…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

Found it, the pictures I saw had two folds, I have no idea whether he is correct about the borders and stamps.
I know, as I stated, my wife’s and my birth certificate are substantially different, stamps, border, signature location, information (mine had my fathers occupation), and several others, but some were very similar. Even different stamp, minor but different. She was born in the same hospital, about 10 months after me. One of ours, actually mine, looks fake…hers is real professional looking. Same hospital, same year…I don’t know.
I have a copy of mine, I lost mine and got another, and it looks totally different…no occupation, and compared to mine original, you would say the copy was real and the other fake…maybe I’m not who I think I am.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

I’m guessing we could also find out his legal status by looking at his college applications.

PappaMac on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Big difference, reminded from the upper post. The original has foot prints, the copy does not.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:27 PM

What if he was born in mid-air, on an Indonisian airliner flying to Honolulu, but was less than halfway there?

Anyone thought of that gem yet?

Gunslinger on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Yeah, but we were drunk by then…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Unfortunately, marti124, except for the words of one of the Framers of the Constitution, no one else thinks dual citizenship (acquired because one of the parents was also a citizen of another country) disqualifies someone who otherwise meets the test.

That test would apparently disqualify Bobbly Jindal who was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, to non-citizen Punjabi Indian immigrants. Many people also hold dual Israeli-US citizenship and that test would also seem to be problematic in the cases of US born children of countries that grant citizenship based on the nationality of parents or grandparents. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis as it looks like there are at least 40 of those countries.

jim m on December 4, 2008 at 6:28 PM

I will reiterate for one and all: the birth certificate is interesting to discuss, but it’s a smokescreen.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 6:13 PM

Agree, your posts have much more validity…and if the lawsuits make it to court, the BC will come out.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:30 PM

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:08 PM

It does not matter with you, you are not running for President.

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:25 PM

That’s not the point. The point is that I know for a fact that I am not a dual citizen. I have been in military career fields which do not allow dual citizens.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:31 PM

All so very interesting. Amazing at the number of comments! More than the fake pic of Palin in the bikini I think. A silly widdle piece of paper, half a million bucks later in fees and gaggles of attorneys. Ooo; how about a ruling from SCOTUS to produce; then, finding out his paperwork shows him as having been listed as white to an indonesian father born in a hut in kenya = priceless. I kid. Seriously, just show the freaking paper and be done. Surely his followers won’t abandon him…or will they?

CInAz on December 4, 2008 at 6:32 PM

I have been in military career fields which do not allow dual citizens.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Or naturalized citizens.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:33 PM

The point is that I know for a fact that I am not a dual citizen.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Beg to differ…
You live in So. Calif., you are black, and you are a conservative….that means are now living in at least two different worlds, and by some it means you don’t even exist at all…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:34 PM

Threads like these are why I come to HotAir after a hard days work.

Nonfactor on December 4, 2008 at 6:35 PM

As flyfisher said, it’s a smokescreen for something else, though I can’t imagine what.

But if it’s true that he was not born in the USA, I don’t think it will come out until…big changes have occurred and he has solidified his position somehow.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Beg to differ…
You live in So. Calif., you are black, and you are a conservative….that means are now living in at least two different worlds, and by some it means you don’t even exist at all…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:34 PM

Well, you have me there!

:-)

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:38 PM

right2bright

OT Still giggling about the Mormons on bikes doing drive-bys.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:38 PM

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:31 PM

You can’t be both then. You either are or aren’t. You stated your circumstances are 100% identical to Obama and Donofrio’s case has gotten to a Supreme Court Review on the basis that this basic fact is true for Obama. The military raised no issue for you. Good. But you either are or you aren’t, but regardless the Supreme court is going to review Donofrio’s case.

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:39 PM

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:39 PM

You misunderstand how the Supreme Court works.

Nonfactor on December 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Anyone know what happens if the SC some how does rule against Obama and determines he wasn’t born in the US? Does McCain or Biden become the next President.

lavell12 on December 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Does McCain or Biden become the next President.

lavell12 on December 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Still holding out hope? I admire that in an immensely pathetic type of way.

Nonfactor on December 4, 2008 at 6:45 PM

OT Still giggling about the Mormons on bikes doing drive-bys.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Thanks, imagine a molotov cocktail thrown by a Mormon…no caffeine and no alcohol…no wonder the Russians won’t allow them in their country.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Does McCain or Biden become the next President.

lavell12 on December 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Someone posted, and it makes some sense…if before the final acceptance of the President Elect,it would be McCain…if after then Biden.
Don’t know if this is true…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:48 PM

lavell12 on December 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM

I don’t think anyone has any idea, whatsoever, what the next legal step would be if BHO is ruled ineligible for POTUS. Just think of how confused everyone was about the 2000 election, and who had what right to choose Florida’s electors, and multiply that by some number bigger than a bailout funding request.

Besides, we’ll all be wrapped up in waiting for the cities to stop burning, because the Constitution is held in such low regard in America today.

progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 6:48 PM

Still holding out hope? I admire that in an immensely pathetic type of way.

Nonfactor on December 4, 2008 at 6:45 PM

I’m hoping for the Gaffenmeister.

Entelechy on December 4, 2008 at 6:50 PM

The Supreme Court won’t now rule on whether Obama is eligible. All it might do is decide to hear the case. It has not heard any of the evidence.

jim m on December 4, 2008 at 6:52 PM

You can’t be both then. You either are or aren’t.

That’s correct.

You stated your circumstances are 100% identical to Obama

Yes, I did.

and Donofrio’s case has gotten to a Supreme Court Review on the basis that this basic fact is true for Obama. The military raised no issue for you. Good. But you either are or you aren’t, but regardless the Supreme court is going to review Donofrio’s case.

marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 6:39 PM

I don’t know what you are talking about. I said I’m not a dual citizen and that I knew that I wasn’t had a US military position that did not allow dual citizens or naturalized citizens. This is expressly stated when applying.

Yes, my birth circumstances are the exact same as Obama’s stated circumstances, as my father is the same Philip Ochieng cited in Jerome Corsi’s book; the same Philip Ochieng who came to America on the same flight as Obama’s father. My mother is an American.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:52 PM

I said I’m not a dual citizen and that I knew that I wasn’t had a US military position that did not allow dual citizens or naturalized citizens. This is expressly stated when applying.

Better: I said I’m not a dual citizen and that I knew that I wasn’t because I had a US military position that did not allow dual citizens or naturalized citizens. This is expressly stated when applying for said position.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:53 PM

Actually Biden would be acting President until a new president is appointed. This never happened and so there is no precident. But that’s what the constitution states and it would all have to be interpreted as it played out. The founding fathers never made it clear.
Mark Davis read this off on the Rush’es show the other day so don’t ask me where it is in the Constitution

katy on December 4, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Thanks, imagine a molotov cocktail thrown by a Mormon…no caffeine and no alcohol…no wonder the Russians won’t allow them in their country.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Can we still make fun of Russians? Yes we can now that freevillage can only look on in frustration.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:55 PM

Actually Biden would be acting President until a new president is appointed.

katy on December 4, 2008 at 6:54 PM

You are assuming that the electors will have already voted and been certified by Congress. If the SCOTUS accepts the case, that might have impacts on other state cases trying to prohibit the electors from being sent to Washington.

And, if BHO is ineligible, then that makes it clear that the entire election was a fraud. I have no idea where that leads, but it certainly does not seem to be cut and dried, to me.

progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM

Can we still make fun of Russians? Yes we can now that freevillage can only look on in frustration.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:55 PM

He was banned?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:59 PM

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:53 PM

I understand what you are saying, but you are basing this legal decision on the US military Law guys.. they probably did not think of it… or care… as it is pretty esoteric, and they would have to get case law from 3 or 4 different countries. Its not like YOU were saying you were a dual cit, or voting in other elections or somthing…

It would be a question of if they would even spot it… and having worked in the intel community a bit, they are just human… one or two guys probably looked at your record, and unless they were experts on international law concerning citizenship… probably would have missed it.

Barrak is getting a LOT more vetting than your record ever did… from a lot more eyes…

Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:00 PM

The real question to be answered is why Obama has not released his Birth Certificate so this would be ended. As the State of Hawaii claims, Obama must give permission, so why hasn’t he? I have yet to hear a single person or media who has asked him that question.

JeffinSac on December 4, 2008 at 7:00 PM

The real question to be answered is why Obama has not released his Birth Certificate

Exactly – and I would say that the same goes for his school records.

Priscilla on December 4, 2008 at 7:02 PM

Actually Biden would be acting President until a new president is appointed.

katy on December 4, 2008 at 6:54 PM

I immediately thought of “Blazing Saddles” and Mel Brooks.
This

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

WOW! 500 plus comments that I don’t have time to read right now. I’m sure it’s probably been mentioned but my biggest problem with Hopey’s birth certificate is that Hawaii always takes footprints of the newborn and they are imprinted on the BC. Except for Obama’s. They are not present on his. The other problem is that Hawaii always lists the hospital of birth. Except Obama’s. His is blank. Hmmmm. What are the odds that the only kid born in Hawaiian history with no footprints or hospital named on his BC would one day become President?

Guardian on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM

I believe Mark D was quoting from the Con. assuming that he was found ineleigible after taking office. Either way it will be a situation fraught with interpretation. A bloggers dream, the MSM/s nightmare and Hillary’s happy dance moment.

katy on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Just one question: how did you react when asked to produce a birth certificate when signing up for those military gigs? Did you call for your platoon of shysters and get your birth state to seal your records?

The answer is obvious, since you got the jobs….

MrScribbler on December 4, 2008 at 7:07 PM

The real question to be answered is why Obama has not released his Birth Certificate so this would be ended. As the State of Hawaii claims, Obama must give permission, so why hasn’t he? I have yet to hear a single person or media who has asked him that question.

JeffinSac on December 4, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Tacticly, this would be the perfect time to release his birth cert if it had somthing Embarrasing on it. Any media attention paid to it would be overshadowed by the economy, and the transition… it would be a ten minute story… and also blunt anything coming out of the Supremes…

The Fact the Supremes are looking at this at all is giving him bad press… and fueling speculation he really does not need right now…

So, unless there is somthing in there that casts doubt on his ability to be President… why not release it… Election is over.

Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 7:09 PM

MrScribbler on December 4, 2008 at 7:07 PM

ummmm, hate to break this to you, but Hawaii did not just seal his records…all BC are sealed by state law, all of them.

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 7:09 PM

katy on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

Yes. I figured that. I was just saying that this might all happen before electoral certification. And, even if it happens after inauguration, people would still have a legitimate claim that the election was fraudulent – not that that would go anywhere, but we would all feel very ripped off. The fact that Biden is a crazy moron doesn’t help things, either.

It’s a real shame, in this time when confidence in our institutions is at such a low ebb, to have this cr#p to deal with because people were too embarrassed to push this to a simple resolution a year or two ago …

progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 7:11 PM

If so, this would also disqualify Bobby Jindal.
baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 5:49 PM

let’s see if I have this straight…
Obama had an American for a mother, and a Kenyan for a father. The question is, does that make him a natural born citizen? You have stated that you have come into this world under the same circumstances as Obama.
Jindal’s parents are both Indian. They came to US round about 1970, according to wikipedia, giving birth to “Bobby”. I assume that both of Jindal’s parents were here on a some sort of visa at the time to study, and being foreign born, only makes Jindal a US citizen, as much as any anchor baby would, thou not natural born and that would make him ineligible for POTUS according to that silly thing called the U.S. Constitution. However, if Jindal’s parents had become naturalized before the birth of Bobby, then I think Jindal would be a natural born citizen. I don’t know the status of Jindal’s parents at the time of his birth.

Now, /tongue in cheek/ have you ever traveled to Pakistan in the early 80’s using a passport other than a US one?

rslancer14 on December 4, 2008 at 7:11 PM

He was banned?

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 6:59 PM

Yep. He must have really screwed up.

marti124

The point I’m trying to make is that my father and Obama’s father being citizens of either Kenya or the UK in 1961–the year in which both Obama and I were born–has no affect on the citizenship status of their presumably American-born offspring when that status is actively put to an objective American standard–like the standard used to measure whether an individual can become a United States Air Force German linguist or the President of the United States. As a matter of fact, the standard for becoming a linguist are higher than those for becoming POTUS (apparently).

The status of O’s father is a dead end wrt to the birth controversy.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:13 PM

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

LOL

katy on December 4, 2008 at 7:14 PM

Exactly – and I would say that the same goes for his school records.

Priscilla on December 4, 2008 at 7:02 PM

Heck, let’s just get some of his college friends on the record. Apparently they are hard to come by. I heard someone say that investigating Obama’s life before politics is like investigating a ghost.

From an interview withWayne Allyn Root, the bombastic libertarian VP candidate:

Matt Welch: So tell us what we should know about Barack Obama that we don’t?

Wayne Allyn Root: I think the most dangerous thing you should know about Barack Obama is that I don’t know a single person at Columbia that knows him, and they all know me. I don’t have a classmate who ever knew Barack Obama at Columbia. Ever!

Welch: Yeah, but you were like selling, you know, Amway in college or something, weren’t you?

Root: Is that what you think of me! And the best damned Amway salesman ever!

Welch: No, I’m sure that you were an outgoing young man, I’m just guessing.

Root: I am! That’s my point. Where was Obama? He wasn’t an outgoing young man, no one ever heard of him.

Tim Cavanaugh: Maybe he was a late bloomer.

Root: Maybe. Or maybe he was involved in some sort of black radical politics.

Welch: Ooooooooooh.

Root: Maybe he was too busy smoking pot in his dorm room to ever show up for class. I don’t know what he was doing!

Welch: Wait, you weren’t smoking pot in your dorm room?

Root: No, I wasn’t. I wasn’t. But I don’t hold that against anybody, but I wasn’t…. Nobody recalls him. I’m not exaggerating, I’m not kidding.

Welch: Were you the exact same class?

Root: Class of ‘83 political science, pre-law Columbia University. You don’t get more exact than that. Never met him in my life, don’t know anyone who ever met him. At the class reunion, our 20th reunion five years ago, 20th reunion, who was asked to be the speaker of the class? Me. No one ever heard of Barack! Who was he, and five years ago, nobody even knew who he was.

Other guy: Did he even show up to the reunion?

Root: I don’t know! I didn’t know him. I don’t think anybody knew him. But I know that the guy who writes the class notes, who’s kind of the, as we say in New York, the macha who knows everybody, has yet to find a person, a human who ever met him. Is that not strange? It’s very strange.

Welch: That’s peculiar! Do you have any theories?

Root: Don’t have any theories. I don’t know. Don’t know why. Kept to himself…. The only thing I could even imagine is that he talks in his biographies about being, you know, his identity crisis, his “am I black or am I white?” He chose black. And he hung out with a couple of black kids and never went near anybody and his wife? That’s the only thing I can think of. All my buddies are white, what can I tell you! They don’t know him, nobody’s ever seen him, I don’t know what to tell you.

Other guy: That’s the era.

Root: That’s the era. I mean, when I went to Columbia, the black kids were all at like tables going “Black Power!” We used to walk by and go, “What the hell are they talking about.” And they didn’t associate with us and we didn’t associate with them. So if you track down a couple of black students, they’ll probably know him. But nobody white’s ever heard of this guy. It’s quite amazing. Nobody remembers him. They don’t remember him sitting in class.

Interesting, yes. Relevant, probably not.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:15 PM

I immediately thought of “Blazing Saddles” and Mel Brooks.
This

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 7:06 PM

I thought of The Villages.

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:17 PM

It is a state law in Hawaii, no can do…

right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM

I don’t mean to sound rude but the only law is that only he, his spouse, or a family member can access the record. You seem to be getting all of your info from factcheck.org and they are not infallible. Tell me how a person would qualify for the Hawaii Home Lands program without the long-form Certificate of Birth when the program explicitly states that the short-form Certification of Birth is unacceptable. Even Hawaii knows that the Certification of Birth does not mean you were born in Hawaii so they demand the long-form. If you have a law to cite I would appreciate it.

mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 7:19 PM

Interesting, yes

and creepy….

Priscilla on December 4, 2008 at 7:19 PM

I understand what you are saying, but you are basing this legal decision on the US military Law guys.. they probably did not think of it… or care… as it is pretty esoteric, and they would have to get case law from 3 or 4 different countries.

The AFSCs I held expressly bars such persons and when in doubt, the answer is “no you can’t do it.” They even barred people who had one or both parents who weren’t citizens. How did I get in then? I hadn’t had any contact with my bio father since I was an infant. (He and I had no contact until I was 36, eleven years ago.) Also, I had already served for four years before applying.

baldilocks on December 4, 2008 at 7:19 PM

There seem to be a myriad of legal problems for Barrack Obama from Refusing to present a VALID Birth Certificate in several lawsuits, to Obama’s Selective Service Registration.
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html

I cannot stand conspiracy theorists like Phillip Berg but even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. I gave this no validity at first because of Berg’s 911 conspiracy connections but when Obama’s attorneys started filing protective orders not to produce Obama’s original Birth Certificate in court and the FEC claimed to have no oversight, even I took interest in the matter.

Ed, you are out of your league on this one for the simple fact the ANY resident of Hawaii can leave the State, give birth and within a year, re-enter the State and be issued a Certificate of Live Birth; that in itself is no proof Obama was born in Hawaii. Obama could have ended this LONG ago by producing his original Birth Certificate but he refuses.
There are at LEAST 17 suits against Obama, let this run its course and if Obama is vindicated, it will give the Obama Administration greater credibility, if not, the Constitution will be upheld.

nelsonknows on December 4, 2008 at 7:21 PM

Interesting, yes
and creepy….

Priscilla on December 4, 2008 at 7:19 PM

Very creepy

flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 7:23 PM

right2bright at 5:25

I’m not finding the link but Andy Martin was down in Hawaii and commented about it. I remember reading it at the time and have links of others who remember hearing it as well.

It’ll be interesting to see if the video with this information comes out http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135 The site claims that every hospital in Hawaii was contacted and workers there either bribed or voluntarily looked for Obama birth records and no hospital had them. It’s not as invasive as Jones-Kelley’s searches specifically on Joe Wurzelbacher, to simply verify if there are any records for Obamas, but I don’t imagine the informants want to be known by name if possible.

justincase on December 4, 2008 at 7:24 PM

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