The sadly obligatory SCOTUS birth-certificate post
posted at 10:20 am on December 4, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The Chicago Tribune briefly revives the Obama-birth-certificate kerfuffle in an update today, if only to throw more cold water on it. Tomorrow, the Supreme Court confabs over whether to grant a review to Leo Donofrio’s lawsuit after having it rejected in district and appellate courts:
The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama’s election.
The meeting of justices will coincide with a vigil by the filer’s supporters in Washington on the steps of the nation’s highest court.
The suit originally sought to stay the election, and was filed on behalf of Leo Donofrio against New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells. …
The Obama campaign has maintained that he was born in Hawaii, has an authentic birth certificate, and is a “natural-born” U.S. citizen. Hawaiian officials agree.
The latest buzz surrounds the decision by Clarence Thomas to circulate the appeal petition to the entire court after David Souter rejected it immediately. That really doesn’t mean much, as the Tribune explains. Of the 842 petitions circulated in that manner, only 60 got a spot on the court calendar, and not all of those succeeded. Thomas may have been interested in the technical aspects of the suit rather than the merits, or perhaps it was a slow week.
It does, however, make it news, no matter how much some of us wish it would go away. The state of Hawaii has repeatedly insisted that their records show Obama was born in Hawaii, as the Certificate of Live Birth states. The COLB would get any Hawaii native an American passport with no questions asked, even without the official endorsement of the Republican governor and her Department of Health. There is even a contemporaneous birth announcement in a local paper confirming it.
I’m sure the comments section will fill with various conspiracy theories over Indonesian school records, Kenyan births, and so on. None of it — absolutely none — has any real, solid evidence showing that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii apart from sheer speculation and hearsay, and even less evidence that Obama’s stepfather renounced Obama’s birthright citizenship, which he didn’t have the power to do anyway. It’s a conspiracy theory spun by conspiracy theorists (Philip Berg is a 9/11 truther) who use their normal thresholds of evidence for this meme.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court can’t kill the conspiracy theories. It can only kill the lawsuits, which is what they will almost certainly do tomorrow when they meet.
Update: From October 31:
The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed on Friday what Barack Obama has been saying all along: the presidential candidate was born in Honolulu.
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” said Chiyome Fukino. “State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.”
Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.
“No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii,” Fukino added.
Update II: From the comments, a link to Donofrio’s explanation:
“Don’t be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesia issues. They are irrelevant to Senator Obama’s ineligibility to be President. Since Barack Obama’s father was a Citizen of Kenya and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama’s birth, then Senator Obama was a British Citizen “at birth”, just like the Framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on US soil, he still wouldn’t be eligible to be President.
The Framers of the Constitution, at the time of their birth, were also British Citizens and that’s why the Framers declared that, while they were Citizens of the United States, they themselves were not “natural born Citizens”.
Hence their inclusion of the grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution: No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; That’s it right there. (Emphasis added.)
If so, this is an even dumber argument than first thought. The children of immigrants born in this country are ineligible to be President? Since when does “natural born” refer to the parents of citizens? Natural born means the person at question was born in US territory, and it always has. Immigration-enforcement activists have been trying to change that definition to eliminate the “anchor babies” issue.
Also, adoption only changes the parentage on the birth certificate, not the place, date, or time of birth. I’ve done an adoption myself and can personally attest to that fact. If Obama had been adopted by Mr. Soetero, Hawaii would only have changed the father’s name on the record — and since Barack Obama Sr has been listed on the birth certificate, it appears that Mr. Soetero didn’t adopt Obama anyway.
Update III: As a rebuttal to Update 1, this from the comments:
The paper lied on purpose. The HI Dept of health went of its way to say everything but that. They do have his original birth certificate, but from where?
The State of Hawaii only keeps birth certificates from births in Hawaii. The State of California only keeps birth certificates from births in California, Minnesota only keeps those from births in Minnesota, and so on. They don’t store information on births outside of their state. Why would they bother to do that? Use some common sense.
Update IV: The Honolulu Advertiser reported on the Dept. of Health statement on November 1 in a little more detail:
State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate, including some who have called the department’s registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night.
“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”
So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?
“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”
Fukino issued her statement to try to stomp out persistent rumors that Obama was not born in Honolulu — and is therefore not a U.S. citizen and thus ineligible to run for president.
Fukino, however, repeated the Health Department’s position that state law prohibits her or any other officials from actually releasing the birth certificate, which Obama’s campaign says shows he was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” Fukino said in the statement. “State law (Hawai’i Revised Statutes ¤338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. … No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i.”
I guess they’ll have to wait a little longer to get any work done.
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You are right. Ed is wrong. I don’t know if Obama is a natural born citizen or not. I hate his mother effing guts so I hope not.
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 3:06 PM
About question 1: The way I see it, in that instance the birth certificate would only be relevant if Donofrio’s lawsuit alleged neither parent was a US citizen. He makes no such allegation. He takes Obama at his word that he is who he says he is and his parents were who he says they were. In other words, he’s stipulating to some facts. If those facts are wrong, then…
As for question 2 regarding McCain: I tend to believe Donofrio is wrong on that one, but I don’t know enough to have a strong opinion either way. For instance, I’ve read that McCain was born in Panama in a Panamanian hospital, not on a US base. If that is true, was he automatically granted Panamanian citizenship by virtue of his birth? These are the questions which arise. Again, I tend to disagree with Donofrio; I believe McCain was “natural born” but without more facts, I don’t have a strong opinion. It’s another murky question.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:15 PM
OK, But how do you really feel? :)
Marine_Bio on December 4, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Hannity is talking about this now!
abinitioadinfinitum on December 4, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Actually, ProudPalinFan, you may be able to be POTUS. See 8 USC, Chapter 12, Section 1402 (link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001402—-000-.html):
All persons born in Puerto Rico on or after April 11, 1899, and prior to January 13, 1941, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, residing on January 13, 1941, in Puerto Rico or other territory over which the United States exercises rights of sovereignty and not citizens of the United States under any other Act, are declared to be citizens of the United States as of January 13, 1941. All persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, are citizens of the United States at birth.
I think McCain was using 8 USC, Chapter 12, Section 1403(a) to argue that he was a natural born citizen:
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
———————–
Both say “citizen”, not “natural born citizen”, so you may have a chance.
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 3:20 PM
This has nothing to do with the BC or the natural-born citizen question, but since Ed put it in the last update:
Er … what the heck does the state health director have to do with “the economy, taxes, energy”? Is this Fukino’s directive to all Americans as to what they should be thinking about and what they shouldn’t?
I can’t wait for someone to try and press for the BHO campaign to be investigated for campaign fraud (that we all PERSONALLY experienced through our own credit card fun and many recorded in a thread, here). Will that be another “truther” name-calling thread because people are scared about what will happen if he is found guilty?
Some very odd stuff is going on these days.
progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Romeo, not only are you a deluded idiot bouncing silly notions round and round your brain, turns out you’re a jackass as well. Must’ve been a supply tool, or at best, a surface puke.
dakine on December 4, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Quibbling with your definition of “natural born” as meaning “born in the United States”. “Natural born” means “conferred citizenship at birth”. Certainly the most common way to be “conferred citizenship at birth” is to be “born in the United States”, but another way is to be “born outside the United States with two American citizen parents”, a la McCain.
DaveO on December 4, 2008 at 3:29 PM
Based on what I’ve heard Donofrio say in interviews, he believes that if a statute is required to determine someone’s status, they are not “natural born.” His argument seems to be that it should be crystal clear, based on the circumstances of birth, whether or not a person is natural born. If there is any doubt, necessitating a statute, they obviously have an impediment to natural born status. Again, this is Donofrio’s argument, not mine. While I believe the status of a man with dual citizenship is clear, there are other less clear situations, such as the children of US soldiers. I would say the former is not natural born, while the latter is.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Ed, in your update number 3 you write: “They don’t store information on births outside of their state. Why would they bother to do that? Use some common sense.”
Hawaii is not common, you do not want to use common sense. You want to refer to Hawaii Law:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.
(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]
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marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM
The Chicago Tribune article says this: U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. citizenship…
That’s completely inaccurate. Donofrio is not, nor has he ever, challenged Obama’s citizenship. Berg is the one making the wild claims, but Berg’s suit isn’t the one under consideration tomorrow. Donofrio is challenging whether or not Obama was natural born, which is a completely different question. If only the media would bother to gather the facts before reporting.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Flyfisher, here’s the first part of Section 1401:
“The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof…..”
Wouldn’t every situation require statutory interpretation (for the non-lawyers, the USC is the United States Code [US federal statutes, or legislation] and 8 USC Chapter 12, Section 1401 is a provision of a statute).
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 3:38 PM
I agree that every “person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” is a citizen, but I don’t believe that makes them “natural born” pursuant to the constitution. I was born in TN to two US citizens, there is no statute required to for all to know that I was natural born, the fact that there are statutes saying I am a citizen means little.
Oh well, let’s just hope the Supreme Court answer the question so this never comes up again.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:43 PM
An anecdotal coup de grace:
There are actually people who don’t mind discussing their birth hospital, showing a blanket or photos from their first days or even a photo of a cake with their weight or height, a bible or baptism record or birth announcement card. They are proud of this stuff! And he is a Christian?
Maybe Ed and the level headed people above should go forth and kill us with evidence. This is not Kennedy or 911 but the way it is being handled may make it such. And the body of this controversy can be handled with a certificate you need to play little league!
Meantime The One has likely spent $100K on these suits and with over a half dozen of them will quickly hit $1 million. And Mr. Transparent hasn’t shown even a hint of interest in extinguishing the controversy. It is clear that something is very wrong and we may be headed for a lot of violence because of this con man. His behavior tips his hand. Something is wrong here. I know the Indonesian school form is a problem….
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 3:44 PM
BTW, if you take the strict view, then McCain wouldn’t have been eligible for POTUS either. See http://www.entertheusa.com/publications/0808_article_mccain.pdf.
In summary, Senator McCain was born in 1936 in the Canal Zone to U.S. citizen parents. The Canal Zone was territory controlled by the United States, but it was not incorporated into the Union and, in some cases, the US Supreme Court held that “unincorporated territories” were not part of the United States for constitutional purposes. For that reason, many decisions hold that persons born in unincorporated territories are not Fourteenth Amendment citizens. In addition, the only statutes which granted citizenship which were in effect in 1936 did not cover the Canal Zone. In 1937, Congress passed a citizenship law applicable only to the Canal Zone, granting Senator McCain citizenship, but eleven months too late for him to be a citizen at birth.
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Amen Brother! The Constitution is at stake here. If barry wants to be in our league he has to pony up the b/c or the Constitution is another casuality if this election season. This is not a trivial matter and should not be seen or handled as such.
thomasaur on December 4, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Jim M,
I’ve got to run. I’ve spent more than enough time arguing about this. But first let me say this: I believe in original intent. If I were on the Court my methodolgy would be to determine the Framers intent and rule accordingly. If Congress disagrees with the Framers it is incumbent on them to institute the amendment process. I recognize most don’t see it my way; it was always lonely in our Federalist Society meetings.
I would love to hear Robert Bork’s opinion on this case after he had adequately studied Donofrio’s actual case, not media assertions about his case.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Yep, and I can accept that. Maybe we need an amendment to clarify the status of the children of our soldiers.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM
OK, here’s how it is for all you retards out there trying to “prove O’Bama isn’t a natural-born citizen”.
There was a contemporaneous birth-announcement.
Unless Obambi’s parents were plotting his “takeover” back in ‘64, and that’s a stretch, even for conspiracy nutters, that’s proof-positive of his natural-born citizenship.
So, in closing, I’ll just say STFU and do something useful, like catching javelins.
Don Carne on December 4, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Re the framers of the constitution – they were born British citizens and NOT American citizens. That is not true for children of foreign citizens who are born in America.
Phoenician on December 4, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Don I could have had Damien Thorn listed in Honolulu Advertiser on that day. You just call it in. And if you don’t want to hear us, just stay TF out of here. IS that simple enough?
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 4:09 PM
You know i have never put much stock in this whole birth certifcate thing .But now i am begining to wonder.Something is starting to smell.
thmcbb on December 4, 2008 at 4:11 PM
BBC: 6 gunmen shot and killed at New Delhi airport
Dec 4 04:46 PM US/Eastern ?
MB4 on December 4, 2008 at 4:14 PM
So what? Anything to undermine in dangerous bastard about to take power. If it has to start with nuts questioning his legitimacy for office, so be it. It isn’t pretty but neither is politics in the aftermath of treasonous “Republicans” foisting McCain on a party that longs for the next Reagan not a second Democrat Party.
highhopes on December 4, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Obama probably fails to recognize the irony of his remarks:
Remarks of Senator Barack Obama on the Confirmation of Judge John Roberts
Thursday, September 22, 2005
“Let me also say that I remain distressed that the White House during this confirmation process, which overall went smoothly, failed to provide critical documents as part of the record that could have provided us with a better basis to make our judgment with respect to the nomination. This White House continues to stymie efforts on the part of the Senate to do its job. I hope with the next nominee who comes up for the Supreme Court that the White House recognizes that in fact it is its duty not just to the Senate but to the American people to make sure we can thoroughly and adequately evaluate the record of every single nominee who comes before us.”
http://obama.senate.gov/press/050922-remarks_of_sena/
TeleL on December 4, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Brainwashing par excellence
There is not 1/10 of the evidence that President Bush lied or deliberately misled us in the build-up to the Iraq war as there is to this citizenship issue. But the left almost without exception believes he is guilty.
Meantime, I now know I can introduce the Honolulu Advertiser as conclusive proof on matters of constitutional law or state definitions. Don carne gave it judical notice!
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Wouldn’t this whole thing go away if Barry would just produce a BIRTH CERTIFICATE????
Rick554 on December 4, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Again, The Boys From Brazil theory comes up. Sakarno wanted clones of himself created but realized he was too ugly and decided to have his genes mixed with those of white women from America. He sent his 1960 version of Joran van der Sloot to go kidnap some white women and thus, Obama was born. Between that and the fact that no one has discounted my theory of Obama’s old man being the macadamia nut king of Kenya and using his Hawaiian connections to get his son’s birth certfifcate recorded, I know I am right and the rest of you are whack jobs. And if you don’t believe me. Talk to soon-to-be President Elect Joe Biden.
grdred944 on December 4, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Latest from bbc.com:
Security scare at Delhi’s airport
The police force in charge of security at Delhi’s main airport has denied reports that people have been shot and injured there.
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 4:30 PM
I’m pretty sure people in the airport were questioning The Black Caesar’s citizenship when gunfire erupted.
grdred944 on December 4, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Can you imagine if it turns out that he is not eligible? Shid Storm Katrina!
ronsfi on December 4, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Just for yuks consider what if:
What would happen if at some future date, the United Nations wished to exercise soverignty over US territory, as current proposals before the UN would make possible (if they have the cajones). They, with the help of many power hungry politicians, supporters, and enablers arrest the vice president (maybe he will be the son of Cheney), The enthralled congress approves the daughter of Vladmir Putin (better known as bloody vladimira) to be the new VP.
Pelosi’s daughter would not automatically succeed if the Presiden Bush III was still in office. Bush III is assasinated by a deranged COZ Kid. Russian born Vladimira would be the Presidenta.
As far fetched as all this is, that is the reason for the “natural born” provision. That was a very real danger until about 1865. With the Chavez types (consider 20% hispanic electorate) of the world or possibly democratic dictators of southern African descent where a large number of guilt ridden others vote to atone for inpuned past transgressions, the US can be at the mercy of any foreign born charismatic that does not have our interests at heart.
Old Country Boy on December 4, 2008 at 4:36 PM
thmcbb at 4:11PM
Exactly. It was Obama’s own action of hiring high-powered attorneys that made me take this seriously. He obviously is, and he should know whether or not it’s serious.
Folks,the Constitutional precedent for the definition of “natural born citizen” is in Us V Rhodes. One is natural born if they have never owed allegiance to a country besides the US.
Obama was born a dual citizen – a fact he acknowledges. He’s out.
McCain was born to a military father while he served in Panama. The common law in use at the time of the writing of the Constitution, on which the US definitions were based, said that a child born on foreign soil while his/her parent served as ambassador of the US there is a natural born citizen. If military personnel are US ambassadors, then McCain is eligible.
David Horiwitz and Michael Medved have both called this crazy. Now Ed calls it crazy. Folks, if following the US Constitution is crazy then you can kiss my you-know-what.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 4:38 PM
He did!!!
But the Lizard People stole it, and replaced it with a certificate of birth…it is blank, but it hypnotizes people into seeing such things as: African, Honolulu, Oahu, but not Hawaii, the Lizard People are not very good spellers.
Only a few people actually stare at it and see it as blank…there is a watermark, and if you look closely it is a picture of Joe Biden…the real ruler of the Lizard People.
The way you know they are Lizard People is that they only have four toes, so math is difficult.
You catch them saying things like just a three letter word:JOBS, or Obama and the 57 states…definitely a clue.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:38 PM
The birth announcement was Grand Ma wanting a clipping for her memories. Maybe he was justa shreddin’ when he went to his grandma a dyin’. He didn’t make the funeral. Little inconsistent…
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Here is a link to his birth certificate. It says he was born in Honolulu and that it was filed by the registrar four days after his birth. Would’ve been difficult for him to have been born on August 4, 1961 in Africa and have the registrar file it four days later, right? And what are you expecting to find in the long form certificate that you don’t have in the short form one?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg.
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 4:39 PM
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 4:09 PM
What you have a time machine? You can go back in time? The notice is from a paper printed in 1964. Got that,1964 not 2004 or any other year you want to pick.
And who the hell put you in charge of anything around here? What are you Almighty God? Who are you to tell anybody what to post. This isn’t your site and we post here at Allah’s goodwill, not yours. If you can’t take opposition then pehaps you should leave and go read some echo-chamber site.
Don Carne on December 4, 2008 at 4:39 PM
And you are a Lizard People hater…
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:41 PM
The part I want to know is, why does the Obama team have THREE law firms involved in fighting this battle?
Getting the birth certificate from Hawaii costs $12 and requires a personal letter. That’s IT. That’s all it would take to settle this.
So, aside from “he’s got something to hide,” which is the obvious response, why is he fighting this so doggone hard?
philwynk on December 4, 2008 at 4:41 PM
When dealing with politicians it is important to remember that even the meaning of “is” can be debatable.
“Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.’”
Note that Dr. Fukino did NOT say that she has seen the vault certificate, only that she has seen it is on record, and if she has seen the vault certificate she did NOT say and has not said that the original birth certificate shows he was born in Hawaii. She may have wanted people to believe that is what she said and, in fact, many do, even though under Hawaiian law at the time it was apparently possible to obtain an Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth even if not born in Hawaii and have your original certificate “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures”.
thomthomp on December 4, 2008 at 4:44 PM
The difference between natural born and citizen, may be the difference between who is here legally and who is not. That is what benefits do we give natural born, and what to citizen…is an “anchor baby” a natural born, or a citizen or both, or neither?
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:44 PM
The law states that no one can get the BC…it has not been allowed for anyone.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:45 PM
I have been following this for months, there is more than enough doubt about where Obama was born! Show us the damn paperwork!
Hell I had to show my birth certificate to get a job at a car dealer!
gdonovan on December 4, 2008 at 4:47 PM
I also need to say that I’m fed up with everybody. Not a one conservative blog has had the balls to really research this thing. Too politically correct. Donofrio’s case is sound. The SCOTUS stay clerk has obstructed justice on this case to try to keep it from reaching the SCOTUS and so has Appeals Judge Sabatino. They wouldn’t risk their careers for something that had no merit.
It was not just Justice Thomas who called for this to be distributed to all 9 justices. It was a decision of the whole court.
Nobody has said anything about why this case has standng. NJ requires their SOS to verify the eligibility of every candidate whose name is put on the ballot. The NJ SOS has admitted she didn’t do that. Donofrio originally sued to have the national election stopped until that could be done so that the NJ ballots could be legal. He went through the state courts and it should have been given to Justice Souter on Nov 3rd. It wasn’t.
If the SCOTUS refuses to decide this case of state election law being broken in a federal election which has Constitutional requirements, then this nation has no rule of law.
I expected much, much better of you, Ed. You probably haven’t read much about it and just dismissed it out of hand, but I expected much, much better of you.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 4:48 PM
It seems that about 90% of conservatives will now proceed to willingly submit to the power of the election brainwash through fervent hope and belief in Obama. To the victor goes the hearts and minds. Facts mean nothing in a case like this because there’s seemingly no clean way to escape the fraud now. You could have all the evidence of his birth, foreign student status, citizenship in multiple nations, etc, and SCOTUS would still do nothing to upset the process. It would just embarrass us as a nation to admit we we just figured out we were conned after having years to ask for his original records. Of course Barack doesn’t have to show any hard copy records from his past to tell us who he really is. That proof stuff is just reserved for the low-lifes of the world. Obama is transcendent above both the riff-raff and the Constitution. He’s all we have now for hope of peace if we want unity for the crises we face.
Plus, so what if he ran a scam and is stalling for time on all his records until he has the Exec power to pardon himself? Doesn’t his boldness just mean he’s even more deserving of the credit and spoils for being the greatest con man ever? That’s modern America at it’s finest, right? We as conservatives and bloggers must now agree to join with the MSM and make sure it becomes a feel good movie that fits the “Obama as new multicultural Founding Father” script we’ve been sold. How dare we question the premise.
econavenger on December 4, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Jim, we want to see the vault version that has the signatures of the witnesses to his birth (typically a doctor) and the name of the hospital where he was born.
Here’s a link to a blog that compares side by side photos of a Certification of Live Birth to the real deal — a Certificate of Live Birth.
http://peoplespassions.org/documents/The_Problem_with_a_birth_place.htm
The vault birth certificate (the Certificate of Live Birth) contains traceable information while the short version, like what Obama posted on the net, doesn’t.
TeleL on December 4, 2008 at 4:49 PM
have you even seen the notice? All it says is Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, son, August 4, 1961 and their address. It doesn’t say where he was born. I live in Texas but I can put a birth announcement in my hometown in Rhode Island if I so chose.
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 4:50 PM
Don didn’t YOU say STFU? And get off this subject? Who made you anything?
You don’t like the conversation you can just go. And worship your little con man elsewhere. That was all I said but like most libs you can dish it out but can’t take it.
I wasn’t doubting the fact of the announcement. Just that a little old lady could have posted it. About a birth in Kenya or Hawaii. It doesn’t prove anything.
My intellect make me boss everywhere.
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Hey jim m (may I call you jim m?) I’ll be blunt.
Don’t link to his COLB bunhole- Hawaii law makes it clear they will issue a COLB to everyone and anyone who applies for one, even those not born here.
A COLB is NOT a birth certificate.
gdonovan on December 4, 2008 at 4:51 PM
JiangxiDad on December 4, 2008 at 3:06 PM
And they say the Far Left is full of nutbags.
dk on December 4, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Jim M. the birth certificate is moot to the Donofrio case.
But the birth certificate on FactCheck has the border for 2008 but the seal for 2007. Hawaii changes their borders and seals yearly in order to protect from fraud. Obama’s folks apparently didn’t know that.
But again, Donofrio’s case says nothing about where Obama was born. The only thing that could change Donofrio’s claim is if Obama Sr. was not Obama’s father or wasn’t a Kenyan citizen – both facts which Obama has acknowledged.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Excellent post.
TeleL on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Amen. That’s my feeling, too. It would take no more than a few days to get this cleared up, so why is he being evasive? Just produce the birth certificate and let the chips fall where they may.
Honestly, I hope he is a citizen. We don’t need more “stolen elections” crap in this country. That said, we also don’t need somebody assuming the highest office in the land that doesn’t qualify for the position based on his birth status (IMO, he’s not qualified based on the fact that he’s a dipstick, but that’s my opinion, not a legal test).
PersonalLiberty on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Who do you think he hires to do his legal work, Jacoby and Meyers?
Of course he has firms, as does all powerful men. Do you think Romney draws up his own contracts?
When Obama needed a copy, he has an attorney research it, they draw up a Power of Attorney, they send the Power of Attorney to a local attorney that can practice law in Hawaii, he obtains the Certificate of Birth, sends it to Obama’s attorney’s, they notify Obama, his PR team, they file it. And when needed pull it out for Photos, etc. All at a cost of about $450 to $800 per hour.
Then they contact the Gov. office to make sure all procedures are followed, the gov sends out a notice, and Health a Services makes an announcement. Gov. is off the hook, meanwhile an attorney is present every step of the way…just like Bush had his attorneys. That’s business…nothing is released, they don’t need to set precedents.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Wrong. Or else no one with a Hawaiian BC could get a passport or qualify for the Hawaiian Home Lands program. Even Hawaii won’t accept the Certification of Live Birth, which is on your beloved factcheck.org site. He, his wife, his parents or another family member that is deemed to have a legitimate reason for having it can request it.
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Mrsmwp
And the birth announcement flies in the face of Michelle Obama, who has said Obama’s parents were not married when he was born.
Somebody’s lying. Now who?
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Wow, sure got folks spun up….
Surface Navy? Yes, supply? only as supply PO early in my career…
But then I did spend a few years working for ComSubPac telling bubbleheads where to go… and flying out to fix the electronic equipment they couldn’t fix themselves…
As to silly notions… lets see…
They point out a Document, that does not proove what they say it prooves, and then call me names when I call them on it…. the Document was created in 2007. The document itself can be obtained by someone not born in Hawaii. The information on said document can also be changed through Adoption procedures…
And I’m the idiot???? I’m the coolaid drinker because I would like source documents???
Me thinks you spent to much time underwater….
Romeo13 on December 4, 2008 at 4:55 PM
The only thing that Hawaii has said is that the Certificate of Birth that Obama produced is an authentic document. That doesn’t mean much of anything since in 1964 you could register the birth of your child up to 1 year after he/she was born. It doesn’t mean the child was born in Hawaii.
I, like others, am only interested in proof that he does meet the requirements of the constitution. I can’t figure out why Obama and the DNC would fight so hard to NOT produce proof.
Also, how did Obama travel to Pakistan in the 1980’s if he only had a US passport? It was illegal to travel to Pakistan on a US passport at the time he did. Therefore he must have another country’s passport.
katablog.com on December 4, 2008 at 4:57 PM
3 – He says he traveled in Pakistan in 1981. That makes him a non American at the time – because American passports were unacceptable there. So either he lied about his citizenship then, or he’s lying now.
Paul Murphy on December 4, 2008 at 1:25 PM
This is just one of the fishy tidbits that this one slippery issue brings up. However, it fits perfectly in the tip of the iceberg that is the legendary Barry Whosane Obama. Some of us now wonder exactly where he stands on issues that he ran on and whether we can believe anything he says a POTUS. Others couldn’t care less and suck up the lies; and that’s how he got elected: apathy and misinformation.
Christine on December 4, 2008 at 4:57 PM
He can’t, state law does not allow the release of the original BC…Health and Services would have to get a legal opinion, and it isn’t worth it to them, because they already acknowledged that the copy is in compliance with the original. Only the Lizard People haters are after the original, which they know can’t be obtained without changing the state law.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:57 PM
Party hacks like Cap’n Kook already lost the election by not supporting conservative candidates, and now this ridiculous assertion that a document no one has ever seen is proof of citizenship? Whose side is Cap’n Kook on anyway? Sort of reminds me of Senator Martinez, another foreign born traitor like BHO.
If there is nothing to hide, then why hide this document? You think that visit to Hawaii was for grandma?
It’s nice to see a “conservative” with a big blovating piehole work for the enemy of this country. Kudos to you Cap’n Kook. No wonder you left California with your cowardly tail between your legs. You like to piss on the constitution, so we Americans are going to start pissing on your treasonous, speculative and conjectural BS.
Leo is a hero. Cap’n Kook is a propagandist dolt bought and paid for by the ruling class.
This is the most disgusting blog entry I have ever seen and an attack upon our very freedoms. People should never listen to an intellectually challenged, bald, fat and disgusting piece of detritus like Cap’n Kook.
petit bourgeois on December 4, 2008 at 4:58 PM
Then how did his grandmother file a birth announcement of his birth in Honolulu (is there a Honolulu in Kenya?) in the local Hawaiian papers?
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Right2bright.
Hawaii requires a person to request in person. At least that’s what Andy Martin was told. That’s why he went to Hawaii. Obama couldn’t have used his attorneys to get the birth certificate even if he wanted to.
What he needed the attorneys for was to argue that he doesn’t NEED to show the vault certificate.
Well, he’s right about that. As long as we know his dad was Kenyan he was a dual citizen and ineligible. That’s the Donofrio case in a nutshell.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 5:00 PM
“I can’t figure out why Obama and the DNC would fight so hard to NOT produce proof.” Kata: because there isn’t any…Akam’s (sp?) razor says that the easiest answer is the right one and I am inclined to agree.
Christine on December 4, 2008 at 5:01 PM
Anyone who has read my posts in this thread knows I believe the birth certificate question, while interesting, is a smokescreen. It’s irrelevant. That said, those using the newspaper announcement as proof of their point are on thin ice. When I was born there was an announcement in four newspapers in multiple states, as the forty something year old yellowed pages in my baby book will attest. My birth announcement ran in the hometown papers of both my maternal and paternal grandparents, my hometown paper, and a nearby major paper. Using the logic of some, I can “prove” I was born in four different places. Obvious nonsense. As it stands, Obama’s birth announcement is merely a piece of evidence, which proves little to nothing. It’s just another brick in the wall and that’s all.
flyfisher on December 4, 2008 at 5:01 PM
ummmmm, you don’t think Obama knows what a power of attorney is? He wouldn’t have to go to take care of this, that is what attorney’s are for.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Yeah … that’s about the shape of it. Fear of riots and/or embarrassment is stronger than love of our Constitution.
progressoverpeace on December 4, 2008 at 5:03 PM
My guess? The lying liar Obama. Plus, back then they probably said Mr&Mrs to avoid scandal.
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 5:03 PM
The difference between natural born and citizen, may be the difference between who is here legally and who is not. That is what benefits do we give natural born, and what to citizen…is an “anchor baby” a natural born, or a citizen or both, or neither?
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Not too bright…Repeat after me
Citizens are legal. They may be natural born, naturalized or ‘anchor babies’
Natural born means they have 2 American citizen parents at the time of birth.
Omama doesn’t qualify as natural born, even if born in Honolulu – which he wasn’t.
txdoc on December 4, 2008 at 5:03 PM
that’s what you’re left with, ed, when you pander to the “KILL ALL RINOS” crowd. you get left with thge “real” conservatives, who are as stupid and insane as any netroots blogger.
eh on December 4, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Where are you getting this idea that there cannot be a certified copy made of the original birth certificate. You do understand don’t you that we don’t want the original dug out of the vault and given to the court. We want a COPY of the long-form original. You can get that in every state, including Hawaii.
mrsmwp on December 4, 2008 at 5:05 PM
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Nah, I for one welcome our new lizard overlords.
Don Carne on December 4, 2008 at 5:05 PM
No Right2bright. When Andy Martin wanted to file a suit requiring the SOS to verify Obama’s eligibility he was told everything had to be done in person. You don’t understand. Everything about Obama’s life is done differently than the normal operating procedures. Obama has guards at the hospitals – in Hawaii AND in Mombasa, Kenya!! – to make sure nobody steals a sneak peak. My birth hospital doesn’t have guards.
Why do you think that is?
And what are those guards in Mombasa, Kenya guarding, anyway? The Kenyan government calls it “Obama’s hospital records”. What records?
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Of course you are correct, but it is just pieces to a puzzle. Any one of these things is not proof…but when you put them together it takes a huge imagination to overcome the “coincidence”.
What people tend to do (not you) is to take each nugget and say it isn’t worth much, and then argue that one point. But it is all the evidence together.
Like someone saying he didn’t go to see his grandmother, you know what attorneys are for, Obama did not need, or would he go to obtain that certificate, which BTW was from 2007, a year before his “visit”.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Praise to the Lizard People…they are among us, and Biden is the leader.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:08 PM
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Don Carne on December 4, 2008 at 5:08 PM
Sorry, but power of attorney could get you the certificate…and it was obtained in 2007.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:09 PM
Please I have not heard of this…do you have the links?
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:10 PM
It is a state law in Hawaii, no can do…
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM
A friend of mine, who has followed about all the research on this topic emailed me this afternoon — super good reading:
Lots to read at: http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
He notes the wnd letter campaign mis-states the core issue, etc.
That language is just awful. No birth certificate can “verify beyond a shadow of a doubt his constitutional eligibility for office.” Please. WND is basically saying that if Obama shows an original BC, then his is eligible beyond a shadow of doubt. That is is false.
I have REPEATEDLY stated that Obama can release a golden birth certificate signed by 100 gazzillion witnesses embossed in gold leaf that he was born on the mall in Washington DC and it still wouldn’t make him a “Natural Born Citizen” under the Constitution because he was, regardless of where he was born, a BRITISH citizen “at birth.”
Since he was “born” as a British citizen/subject, his United States citizenship was not “natural”. World Net Daily has done a prior article where they did get it right
(www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80928), but at this crucial moment, two days before the SCOTUS meets, they are getting it wrong.
There is no dispute about Obama’s parentage. His father was a British Citizen, and his mother was a United States citizen. Therefore, Obama was both a subject/citizen of the British monarchy as well as a United States citizen “at birth”. His place of birth won’t change that no matter where he was born. The WND letter solicitation fails to point that out and as such is doing harm to public awarenesss.
Here’s why: if Obama produces a genuine vault kept birth certificate from Hawaii that satisfies every possible requirement, many people will be under the mistaken impression that he is a natural born citizen. World Net Daily needs to correct that solicitation and let its readers know that Obama is not eligible regardless of where he was born.
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM
Hit the nail on the head.
txsurveyor on December 4, 2008 at 5:13 PM
ps – in my previous posting, the words snip inside greater-than and lesser-than symbols were dropped. Most of what I just posted is a quotation.
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 5:13 PM
Here’s the current version of the applicable Hawaii statute. It does say that Hawaii would issue a birth certificate in these cases. But it doesn’t say that the birth certificate would list an incorrect place of birth.
[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 5:14 PM
That is what similar lawsuits are saying, and I have no problem with that…flyfisher is on top of that.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:15 PM
This is Leo Donofrio’s new site as of Monday 1st:
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
latest post – please see the link for embedded links within the post:
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/abc-news-gets-the-donofrio-scotus-story-wrong/
ABC NEWS GETS THE DONOFRIO SCOTUS STORY WRONG
Posted in Uncategorized on December 4, 2008 by naturalborncitizen
[This posting is super, super interesting, one of the most interesting items I've read in many months.]
marti124 on December 4, 2008 at 5:16 PM
They had phones and/or telegrams back then, right? My birth announcement ran in the local paper where I was born and where my mother was stationed, even though there were two states in between them. Not saying I believe he was born in Kenya, but if he was, his mom could have telegrammed her parents and they could have ran the anouncement.
Anna on December 4, 2008 at 5:17 PM
right2bright, I was making a joke (in a perverse way) about the trip to grandma’s apartment. If there was incriminating evidence of anything there, in her possession. You don’t send an attorney to destroy it. That can get sticky.
The strange part was visiting grandma while she was sick (for days) then missing her funeral.
And anyone can post anything as a birth announcement!
I don’t understand the rest of your comments.
eh — I have only attacked two or three RINOS but over 50 liberals who called themselves progressives as they expired.
A capitalistic and democratic government is like a marriage — someone has got to love and believe and sacrifice!! – copyright 2008 — just made it up.
IlikedAUH2O on December 4, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Obama has the prerogative to request his original certificate and present it for public view. He won’t.
Why won’t he?
That’s my obligatory question that still hasn’t been answered. That so many on the right are dismissing this issue as “tiresome” greatly disappoints me.
JannyMae on December 4, 2008 at 5:21 PM
As I stated prior, every piece of evidence can be disputed, but when you take them at the whole, all of the evidence it becomes overwhelming, the odds astronomical that this happens. He also could really not be Obama, but a shape-shifting Lizard People. Common sense comes into play, which is why the serious lawsuits do not pursue this.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:21 PM
Nice try, Ed. I have no theory I just want the guy to prove he meets the constitutional standards to hold the office. You can poison the well and call names all you want but my demand that Obama meet the basic constitutional requirements remains valid. The active denial is unbecoming.
snaggletoothie on December 4, 2008 at 5:23 PM
My kids are hollering at me to go shopping, but one link I can give you right away about the records in Kenya is http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=79174
I’ll have to look up the other links when I get back.
justincase on December 4, 2008 at 5:23 PM
State law is vague, and officials said they would have to get a legal opinion…it hasn’t happened before, because they can check the original against the certificate (as they have) and determine it validity.
State law says they cannot release the original.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:23 PM
If Obama Jr. was born in Hawaii, he is a natural born citizen of the US under 8 USC Chapter 12, Section 1401(a) and under any strict interpreation of the US Constitution. It doesn’t matter what his father was.
If he was born outside of Hawaii and his mom was was not married to Obama’s father at the time of birth, it would actually help Obama. As long as she spent one year continuously in the US at some point before his birth, he’s a natural born citizen.
See http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001409—-000-.html.
Section 1409(c) “Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.”
jim m on December 4, 2008 at 5:24 PM
We all know that, it is the “smoking gun” that some other nut presented. Lingle is a Palin supporter, she didn’t seal the records, she had the office confirm that they were meeting state law on not releasing the BC.
Where is the link about guards…there isn’t any it is a rumor.
right2bright on December 4, 2008 at 5:25 PM
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