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Whither Pakistani sovereignty?

posted at 12:15 pm on December 2, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Robert Kagan argues that nations in the 21st century have to earn sovereignty, and that Pakistan has failed to do so.  In the wake of the attacks in Mumbai and their years-long recalcitrance to act against radical Islamist terrorists in their country, Kagan says that the UN should set itself as an arbiter of national sovereignty.  Does anyone else see the dangers of this plan?

Rather than simply begging the Indians to show restraint, a better option could be to internationalize the response. Have the international community declare that parts of Pakistan have become ungovernable and a menace to international security. Establish an international force to work with the Pakistanis to root out terrorist camps in Kashmir as well as in the tribal areas. This would have the advantage of preventing a direct military confrontation between India and Pakistan. It might also save face for the Pakistani government, since the international community would be helping the central government reestablish its authority in areas where it has lost it. But whether or not Islamabad is happy, don’t the international community and the United States, at the end of the day, have some obligation to demonstrate to the Indian people that we take attacks on them as seriously as we take attacks on ourselves?

Would such an action violate Pakistan’s sovereignty? Yes, but nations should not be able to claim sovereign rights when they cannot control territory from which terrorist attacks are launched. If there is such a thing as a “responsibility to protect,” which justifies international intervention to prevent humanitarian catastrophe either caused or allowed by a nation’s government, there must also be a responsibility to protect one’s neighbors from attacks from one’s own territory, even when the attacks are carried out by “non-state actors.”

In Pakistan’s case, the continuing complicity of the military and intelligence services with terrorist groups pretty much shreds any claim to sovereign protection. The Bush administration has tried for years to work with both the military and the civilian government, providing billions of dollars in aid and advanced weaponry. But as my Carnegie Endowment colleague Ashley Tellis has noted, the strategy hasn’t shown much success. After Mumbai, it has to be judged a failure. Until now, the military and intelligence services have remained more interested in wielding influence in Afghanistan through the Taliban and fighting India in Kashmir through terrorist groups than in cracking down. Perhaps they need a further incentive — such as the prospect of seeing parts of their country placed in an international receivership.

This stands the Bush doctrine (the real one) on its head.  After the 9/11 attacks, we made it clear that government harboring terrorists on their soil shared responsibility for the actions of those terrorists because they have sovereignty over their own territory.  The US would consider such attacks an act of war and would respond accordingly — which gave nations a lot more incentive to exercise that sovereignty.

We used that doctrine as the underlying reason for our invasion of Afghanistan and dislodged the Taliban government that had provided an explicitly friendly home for al-Qaeda.  Unfortunately, we have retreated from that position, mostly because of Pakistan and its nuclear arsenal.  Instead of holding Pakistan responsible for the actions of the terrorists it either cannot or will not eliminate, we’re mostly letting them off the hook for it — and for some very solid reasons, once again looking at the nuclear arsenal in Pakistan’s possession.

Kagan’s proposal would therefore make some sense, but it would set a very dangerous precedent.  Under what other circumstances might the UN decide to suspend sovereignty?  The most obvious target on the list would be Israel.  Samantha Power suggested almost the exact same kind of mechanism in her proposal to occupy Israel on behalf of the allegedly oppressed Palestinians. I’m certain that the busybodies at the UN would find other regions in which to declare national sovereignty a dead issue, including Georgia and Ukraine, if Russia had its way.

Putting the test for sovereignty into the hands of the UN would make it a de facto world government.   Nations need to tend to their own sovereignty.  That means that Pakistan has to suffer the consequences of failing to secure its own territory, but that doesn’t require the UN to make that determination.  Given the UN’s propensity for inaction, it’s probably the least effective path anyway.


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The UN? Really, the UN?

The UN cannot put sovereignty to it’s namesake United.

Kini on December 2, 2008 at 12:18 PM

My sister used to live across from the UN. I felt like an 8th grader whenever I would visit here because I would literally stand in her window overlooking the Hudson giving the one-finger salute to the UN…for what seemed like minutes at a time.

Peacekeepers my ass. United my ass.

The Race Card on December 2, 2008 at 12:23 PM

As 30 US states have banned gay marriage, it is clear that we need to be invaded too. Oh wait, Dear Leader, with his millions in foreign campaign contributions, has already take care of that.

Methinks Kagan has been smoking a little too much of the loco weed.

rbj on December 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Maybe they could test it out in Somalia.
See how that works out.

Roland THTG on December 2, 2008 at 12:27 PM

I felt like an 8th grader whenever I would visit here because I would literally stand in her window overlooking the Hudson giving the one-finger salute to the UN…

The Race Card on December 2, 2008 at 12:23 PM

Not unforgivably juvenile. A patriot!

RushBaby on December 2, 2008 at 12:27 PM

Ah yes, putting Sovereignty in the hands of the same people who brought you Oil for Food and the Rape of the Congo.

Were it not for veto power, the US would be the first to lose sovereignty in the Legion of Doom.

BKennedy on December 2, 2008 at 12:27 PM

Next, the UN will declare the red states ungovernable. UN troops will be burning down Atlanta and marching to the sea.

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:29 PM

It does raise some interesting questions.

Can a country claim sovereignty over areas that they have little to no control over?

Wouldn’t that be a sovereignty in name only?

If so, are other countries obligated to respect that facade of sovereignty when the people living in that territory have no respect for that claim themselves?

If people in a territory that you claim as sovereign attack a neighboring country, should that be considered the same as your country attacking their country?

If you cannot or will not do anything about it, are they still obligated to respect your borders at the risk of their own safety?

I’m not sure of the answers to these questions, but, one thing I know for certain is that it’s definitely not the U.N. that should be making the decisions. They’ve proven over and over again that they can’t be responsible for anything more than holding summits.

JadeNYU on December 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM

So, just because they have nukes, we fear them and become impotent?

I seem to remember the now extinct USSR had a few nukes, and an army, a navy, and an air force.

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM

The UN needs to be abolished, never mind deciding sovereignty

lodge on December 2, 2008 at 12:34 PM

What happens after we rid these zones of terrorists?

Won’t they just run to another part of Pakistan?

Is this Kagan’s wack-a-mole doctrine?

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:34 PM

No UN envolvement unless there are strong safeguards that this will end here. Pakistan would also have to request it; not just because it is some greedy power brokers pipe dream in the UN.

DL13 on December 2, 2008 at 12:34 PM

Kagan says that the UN should set itself as an arbiter of national sovereignty.

I don’t know who this Kagan character is, but this is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard in my life. Anything that empowers the UN further is a move of stupidity by a person who has so little little understanding of much of anything that I’m surprised his brain functions enough to regulate his breathing.

The UN is an entity that only a total moron could support for an empowered existence of any kind. A little evolutionary theory should be enough to let anyone know that. Peerless, competitionless entities that are empowered constitute nothing but threats and wastes.

progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Sorta like when parents cannot control their teenagers from doing criminal and destructive things to others, at first the parents are held responsible. Then, when the situation escalates and becomes intolerable to others, the state steps in, dissolves parental sovereignty over their children and breaks the home up. Only with Pakistan, the Islamic bomb is already armed, so there will be blood.

A clumsy metaphor for sure, but the precedent concepts are already in place. Prepare for some serious shiite.

Fishoutofwater on December 2, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Who gave the UN any authority to make declarations on sovereignty? Let’s shut them down first, then talk about whither Pakistan.

Vashta.Nerada on December 2, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Hideous as it is, Islamic terrorism is the symptom. Wahabbism and Salafism is the real disease. So logically Saudi Arabia should cease to exist as a sovereign nation if it continues to export the ideology that caused the violence in the first place, and poison millions of Muslim children with this vile propaganda.

J.J. Sefton on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 PM

“All your base are belong to us!”

Akzed on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 PM

The UN?
The UN would then put Crapistan in charge of a commission to study sovereignty just like they had Syria chair a commitee on Terrorism or Libya on Human Rights.
UN=United Nations against America

mountainmanbob on December 2, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Kagan says that the UN should set itself as an arbiter of national sovereignty.

Brilliant. A group that has a significant number of dictators in its ranks, is known for corruption while pursuing meaningless strategies with mind numbing ineffectiveness, is the arbiter.

Vashta.Nerada on December 2, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Sovereignty is always ‘earned’. If we didn’t ‘earn’ ours during the revolutionary war, we’d still be British subjects.

I don’t have a problem with countries needing to ‘earn’ sovereignty. I just have a problem with the UN directing it. The US needs to be more imperialistic in its global approach.

The President is in town again. I’M ALWAYS STOKED WHEN THE PRESIDENT COMES TO TOWN! I love Air Force One. It doesn’t matter WHO the president is because it is the President.

But I do wish we had orchestrated the WOT out of India instead of Pakistan. And I wish we had fought more aggressively initially in Iraq. Had Bush made those two small adjustments, he’d be heralded as a great leader.

His decisions were appropriate, just not executed properly. I fully support the wars. . . I just wish if we spend money, time, and lives in a war that we should get some of the booty after victory. Instead, we win and then spend more money. . . again, the problem is the execution, not the decision. WOT is fine through India, not through giving Pakistan money.

NO the UN should not have the authority to determine who is sovereign and who is not. The US should though.

ThackerAgency on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 PM

This must be handled just like Bush handled Afghanistan.

Demand the Paks hand over LeT, Taliban, and Bin Laden. Give them 60 days. Then bomb. Rinse. Repeat.

Actually, India has already begun this process.

Plus, they are following the gaffe-master’s (Obama) advice:

India on Tuesday said it has demanded the handing over of LeT chief Hafiz Mohammad and other fugitives in
Pakistan

India has handed over to Pakistan a list of 20 terrorists, including Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafiz Mohammad and Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar besides Dawood Ibrahim, who are based in that country and are suspected to be behind terror attacks in India.

Asked about US President-elect Barack Obama’s suggestion that India has a “right to protect” itself, Mukherjee said “what will be done, time will show and you will come to know.”

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 PM

J.J. Sefton on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 PM

At some point we will realize that, if we want to stop islamic insanity, we must retake the gulf oil fields that the arabs/persians stole in their nationalizations of a half century ago. Without control of the oil fields, the gulf states will finally be rendered impotent.

People don’t like to talk about this, but it is the only way to end this reign of islamic terror – and it’s the most bloodless way, too.

progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 PM

We need to stand up. Get the UN out of our Country! They are useless thugs. They need to go to a Third World Country. It will fit their mentality!

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:41 PM

I’m against this idea mainly because it won’t work. Their is only one nation on the planet that could handle that area and that is the United States. Anyway, does anyone really think Pakistan is going to give up its sovereignty, no way.

Plus there will be no backing of this plan in the UN. On top of that the Organization of the Islamic Conference the real power in the UN would never allow a Muslim country lose its “sovereignty.” Even if the OIC even remotely considered this option it would be at Israel expense. If Pakistan lost its sovereignty than Israel would have to lose hers. That makes this idea dead in my mind.

So the best option is for the US is to conduct operations as needed to take out terrorist cells in that area. That part of the world will never change. It would be waste of manpower and life to have our troops station there.

Lance Murdock on December 2, 2008 at 12:41 PM

I move that the UN does not have sovereignty over the thugs and dictators that run the place and we should shut it down.

JustTruth101 on December 2, 2008 at 12:42 PM

evict the U.N. from American soil…

Kaptain Amerika on December 2, 2008 at 12:43 PM

I felt like an 8th grader whenever I would visit here because I would literally stand in her window overlooking the Hudson giving the one-finger salute to the UN…

The Race Card on December 2, 2008 at 12:23 PM

The East River. Just a quibble.

JiangxiDad on December 2, 2008 at 12:43 PM

I should have read Ed’s post before I commented. At least two great minds think alike.

;)

Lance Murdock on December 2, 2008 at 12:45 PM

Get the UN out of our Country!

I always assumed we kept them close because it was easier to bug the headquarters and the various UN embassies and keep tabs on our enemies’ actions. Now, of course, all bets are off.

JiangxiDad on December 2, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Not unforgivably juvenile. A patriot!
RushBaby on December 2, 2008 at 12:27 PM

Why not both? Rembember the Boston Tea Party.

logis on December 2, 2008 at 12:47 PM

The Saudi’s are sure taking their time telling us what to do.

BL@KBIRD on December 2, 2008 at 12:48 PM

Have the international community declare that parts of Pakistan have become ungovernable and a menace to international security

If the UN can do it in Pakistan they can do it in the US. Do you really want the International Community deciding who is and isn’t a terrorist? They will leave alone counties that scare them hoping to be their friends. While at the same dime demanding the US turn people over to them for war crimes. A president like Obama might just cave on something like this.

Tommy_G on December 2, 2008 at 12:50 PM

A president like Obama might just cave on something like this.

Tommy_G on December 2, 2008 at 12:50 PM

“cave”?

The idiot messiah is very much in favor of something like this.

progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Pakistan is what it is today because it has nukes. If it didn’t, someone would have ****** it up by now.

Wanna know why Iran should be hit prior to having nukes? Look at Pakistan.

SlimyBill on December 2, 2008 at 12:58 PM

Doing anything that gives the UN any kind of power is a bad idea.

jellybelly on December 2, 2008 at 12:58 PM

At some point we will realize that, if we want to stop islamic insanity, we must retake the gulf oil fields that the arabs/persians stole in their nationalizations of a half century ago.
progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Well, Hell of an idea there. But we’re about to go through four years that will make the Carter administration’s foreign policy look like a stunning success in comparison.

We’ll have to keep this plan on the back burner for now — while we wait for history’s pendulum to swing back. Clinton was LBJ; Bush, Jr. was Nixon; Obama is Carter….

logis on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 PM

At some point we will realize that, if we want to stop islamic insanity, we must retake the gulf oil fields that the arabs/persians stole in their nationalizations of a half century ago.
progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Nah, I still think we drill here, everywhere, and become a net energy EXPORTER… we have enough oil and natural gas to do it if we chose to.

Then declare Islam an unwelcome Political Party and Philosophy (not religion, so we can expell them under the Constitution)… and send em all back to the Mid East so they can kill each other off.

OH, and build the missle shield…

Afgainistan is a lost war if Pakistan devolves further… unless we can get the Russians to allow us to run supply lines through them…. and the only way that happens is if we tell them we are no longer going to support pro western countries in their Near Abroad….

Romeo13 on December 2, 2008 at 1:05 PM

I don’t think there are any good solutions to the Waziristan / Tribal Area takeover by the Jihadis. Partial solutions are not likely to help–limited bombing, missile strikes, etc. are not enough. Only real Pakistan Military action (backed up by U.S. B-52 strikes, etc.) can help–unless the U.S.A. wants to fight a World War II scorched earth type war there.
***
The continued expansion of the Jihadis in Pakistan will result in their takeover of the government at some point in time–and the Jihadis will then have 50 nukes or so. At this point India and possibly the U.S. will have to nuke the storage locations–if they are known. No touchy-feely negotiations by the “Messiah” will help.
***
The question is whether the Pakistan Military and government are willing to stand and fight the Jihadis. The loyalty of the soldiers is getting worse every day as the radical Islamic medrassahs spread their poisonous agenda to young males.
***
At some point the Pakistan government / military will have to take the same action the first King Hussein took when the terrorist filled Palistinian “refugee camps” in Jordan threatened his reign. He knew that someone’s head would be on a pike soon–his or Yassir Arafat’s PLO camp leader’s. He sent in his trusted “praetorian guard” soldiers and wiped out the camp on “Black Thursday”–30000 dead. This choice is coming soon to the Pakistan government.
***
John Bibb

rocketman on December 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM

I could see the UN declaring that only states that provide free health care to their citizens are functioning states, and all others need to be taken over by the UN. For the good of the people of course.

MarkTheGreat on December 2, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Is it not India who refuses to call a referendum in Kashmir?

What does India expect when it clamps a boot on the next of the Muslim majority there?

India has made a decision to stay in Kashmir….thus they have chosen to live with these attacks indefinitely.

mylegsareswollen on December 2, 2008 at 1:14 PM

Speaking of Paki nukes – how old are they now, and what kind of upkeep do they get, hidden away in the NWFP?

Not much use, would be my bet. Rotting in their holes, the victims of “inshallah” maintenance.

mojo on December 2, 2008 at 1:15 PM

So, just because they have nukes, we fear them and become impotent?

I seem to remember the now extinct USSR had a few nukes, and an army, a navy, and an air force.

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM

I don’t recall us ever talking about invading the Soviet Union.

MarkTheGreat on December 2, 2008 at 1:15 PM

In the wake of the attacks in Mumbai and their years-long recalcitrance to act against radical Islamist terrorists in their country, Kagan says that the UN should set itself as an arbiter of national sovereignty.

Kagan doesn’t even mention the United Nations until the last paragraph of the piece. He exclusively refers to “the international community,” implicitly an informal league of democracies of the sort he and his friend John McCain have discussed, that eventually brings its case against Pakistani sovereignty to the UN Security Council – partially in the hope of smoking out Russia and China, partially in the hope of scaring Pakistan straight.

Sick of war and frightened by nukes, the international community under the leadership of the U.S. decided to freeze the world’s borders in place except where peacefully and legitimately altered, as opposed through military conquest – the general rule for thousands of years. It’s become increasingly clear in recent years that the state sovereignty system put in place at the end of of World War II needs refurbishment if it’s going to survive at all.

Kagan’s argument is rational and interesting, which isn’t the same thing as saying it couldn’t be argued against. It’s not the straw man that many here are knocking down.

CK MacLeod on December 2, 2008 at 1:15 PM

I have a better idea: BOMB PAKISTAN. Take out its nukes, its military and its “intelligence” services. If that fails, just turn it over to India as reparations for Mumbai and the rest.

Pakistan: The new armpit of the world.

HotAirJosef on December 2, 2008 at 1:16 PM

All Hail The Messiah!

dmann on December 2, 2008 at 1:36 PM

UN troops will be burning down Atlanta and marching to the sea.

Heh. More like fleeing Atlanta and retreating to the sea, where I’m sure the average Georgian will cheerfully push them in.

I think it may give rise to a new phrase among the UN crowd: Retreat faster! I hear banjo music!

I R A Darth Aggie on December 2, 2008 at 1:37 PM

The East River. Just a quibble.

JiangxiDad on December 2, 2008 at 12:43 PM

I’m a total tourist when I hit the city. NYC is the one place I don’t try to learn the lay of the land. All I knew was the UN is across from Trump Towers and the local eats in relation to there.

The Race Card on December 2, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Pakistan has a cancer of radical Muslim terrorists that are eating the country alive. The befuddled government of Pakistan figures the cure is worse than the disease (which they hope will just go away).
————–
(The world needs to re-classify Muslim as a type of government, not label it as a religion. There are different types of governments in the world: Democracy, Communist, Dictatorship, Muslim and others.)
————–

If Pakistan had no nukes no one would care and India would have already invaded them.

The U.S. should use this time to bomb the Taliban and al Queda holed up in Pakistan. (If Pakistan moves its Army to the border with India then the U.S. has freer range to bomb western Pakistan.)

But then not to worry, in a little over a month the Messiah will clean this all up.
Ohhhhh-Bomb-Ahhhh….

albill on December 2, 2008 at 1:59 PM

I think Pakistan is now quite aware of the cancer growing on its turf. They are truly afraid of India in a way that, if exploited by us and the Indians in concerted diplomacy, will doom the terrorists. This is the second “7/11″ for the Indians, and I don’t think they are going to let any more happen — for Pakistan’s President to caution the Indians to take a few deep breaths before acting, and to send their top spy to India to aid in the investigation, indicates the stakes in the game.

Expect this thing to be an intelligence bonanza for the Pakistanis — the Indians scooped up the terrorist’s cellphones and they now have the call lists and will construct the virtual network associated with the terrorists. The trail leads back into Pakistan, and I’m betting the good guys over there will salivate over what India provides them.

Let’s wish the good Pakistanis luck — it’s going to be a minor civil war, methinks.

unclesmrgol on December 2, 2008 at 2:13 PM

I would like to thank Mr. Kagan for proposing an actual use for one of the most useless, corrupt and villainous institutions mankind has ever propped up: the United Nations….

…going so far as to put our and every other nations’ sovereignty — and, lest we forget, the rights guarenteed the citizens of those nations by virtue of that sovereignty — is, however, naive on the scale of that displayed by Pollyana’s retarded sister….

…these pundits and academics seem to want to throw all established and proven mechanisms of governance into the sausage grinder…thereby to prove a usefullness for themselves, presumably…on the order of kids who disassemble watches to “see how it works”….

…but, casting an eye back my own youth, I seem to remember that these same kids could never get the watch back together…there were always parts left over…so, it was always, in effect, “screw the watch to see how it worked“….

…the arrogance of the fashionably educated….

Puritan1648 on December 2, 2008 at 2:17 PM

the new neocon cause………..

eski502 on December 2, 2008 at 2:38 PM

(The world needs to re-classify Muslim as a type of government, not label it as a religion. There are different types of governments in the world: Democracy, Communist, Dictatorship, Muslim and others.)
————–

albill on December 2, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Ewwwww… I like it… have to get rid of dual citizenship first… and then make them SWEAR to disavow their Leader MohHead… on their own Holy Book, as he is now a POLITICAL Leader, not just religious…..

Romeo13 on December 2, 2008 at 2:54 PM

mylegsareswollen on December 2, 2008 at 1:14 PM

My understanding is that terrorist actions in the area have driven much of the Indian population that used to be there out of Kashmir. It wouldn’t exactly be fair to hold a referendum on that issue based on who’s left over because they weren’t targeted by the terrorists.

Additionally, many of the Muslims there (though certainly not a majority) consider themselves Indian and would prefer to be part of a more functional state. They hardly feel free to speak their mind though since doing so can get you killed.

JadeNYU on December 2, 2008 at 3:06 PM

good Pakistani’s

Thats like moderate Muslims or unicorns right?

Pakistan is pure Islam top to bottom, the Paks themselves call it the “land of the pure”. They haven’t been infected by anything, they are all sworn to aid Jihad. The Taliban are the children and creation of the “gov”. They have been pretending to co operate because they know they have no other option, besides Uncle Sam dumped a boatload of gift money for tribal elders on them.

BL@KBIRD on December 2, 2008 at 3:12 PM

logis on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 PM

I just hope we actually make it through to the other side of the pendulum swing. :fingers crossed:

Romeo13 on December 2, 2008 at 1:05 PM

I remember we’ve had this conversation before. I like consistency! I wish we could find more of it in the public sphere, these days.

I agree with everything you’re saying about domestic production. 1000%. I’m also a huge proponent of nuke power – which I’m sure you are, too. But, in any event, our production is going to take some years to get fully online, though just the movement to open things up would change the dynamics, immediately. Unfortunately, looking at our coming government, if I can call these fools a ‘government’, we aren’t going to be moving towards any sort of reasonable energy independence – just the opposite, I’m sure. But, even if we did become energy independent, there will still be much political and financial power that the arabs and persians derive from the fields, which, I think, will continue drive their war. To my mind, aside from what we do, they must be actively defanged.

But, it’s all a moot point, anyway – both my recapture of the fields and your desire for ramped up domestic production. The Dems are going to move in the opposite direction on both accounts. Nothing will change them until something really, really bad happens – either a major attack or a total economic collapse. I figure that we might see both. But, hopefully logis is right and we will be able to make it to the other side of the pendulum swing, perhaps in 2010.

progressoverpeace on December 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM

The UN will not eff with Pakistan and no one is being turned over to India. The UN only takes it’s lead on aggression from the US and no one in the current or incoming administration is going to mix it up with them. Pakistan knows this and India knows this. India is doing some sabre rattling but c’mon. I am the only one who watched the ineptness of the Indian police and military and thought of Apu being robbed once again in the Kwik-e-Mart.

The Black Caesar is not going to press this issue. He is going to hope for the best and do nothing until we have an NBC attack in the US. The last thing he wants is his rival Hillary to grab too many headlines.

grdred944 on December 2, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Yes, this is a very bad idea. The Bush doctrine (the one you point out) is the right way to do this. Sovereign nations have the right to go to war with another sovereign nation on the basis of the latter’s inability to control its citizens perpetrating acts of war. It’s very bad precedent for the sovereignty of all nations to delegate the judgment of sovereignty to the UN. Do we really want Libya, Iran, and other nations deciding who is sovereign or not? I think not.

All the necessary structures are already in place to handle disputes between sovereign nations without having to create new structures. The Bush doctrine didn’t change this. It merely codified the fact that sovereign nations are responsible for the acts committed by its citizens and those legally within its borders.

In short, there are sovereign nations, diplomacy, and armed conflict. Those are all we need. Mix appropriately.

PersonalLiberty on December 2, 2008 at 3:50 PM

Next, the UN will declare the red states ungovernable. UN troops will be burning down Atlanta and marching to the sea.

faraway on December 2, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Something tells me they`d be stopped dead cold in the deep red south.

ThePrez on December 2, 2008 at 4:10 PM

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mumbaiterrorstrike/Story.aspx?ID=NEWEN20080075005&type=News

Why can’t the McCain troika STFU ?
I have a request for the McScoundral:
In the name of of God, GO

macncheez on December 2, 2008 at 4:19 PM

Robert Kagan is generally considered a neocon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kagan

I sorta wonder if he’s been posessed by some UN demon, though.

hawksruleva on December 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM

How Empires Are Born

- The Cat

MirCat on December 2, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Umm, sovreignty need not be redifined.

Again this proposal, all your talk, really just higlights how nobody in the western world really understands… the rest of the world.

Pakistan is already not a sovriegn nation. They have three forms of government in that nation: the Civilian, the Military, and Intelligence/Militia. A nation with such a diverse governmental structure where each piece has their own powers and they do not, as a matter of practice, co-mingle, is not a sovreign state, it’s a nation still struggling to find independence.

And what would be the point of “declaring” the sovereignty of Pakistan null and void? Sovreignty is not decelared to begin with, it cannot therefore be rescinded by declaration.

And what is any Western power to do with Pakistan? If you were to declare the government false, destroy its military, dismantle its intelligence services, do you really think that any Western power can put that egg back together agian? That story is told for a reason, contrary to popular ignorance.

allegedly oppressed Palestinians.

And you’re right, those Palestinians are as free as birds. Caged birds.

PresidenToor on December 2, 2008 at 6:19 PM

Thats like moderate Muslims or unicorns right?

Pakistan is pure Islam top to bottom, the Paks themselves call it the “land of the pure”. They haven’t been infected by anything, they are all sworn to aid Jihad. The Taliban are the children and creation of the “gov”. They have been pretending to co operate because they know they have no other option, besides Uncle Sam dumped a boatload of gift money for tribal elders on them.

BL@KBIRD on December 2, 2008 at 3:12 PM

Your thinking is the mirror image of how the enemy thinks about us Christians. I think many Pakistanis are afraid of the fundimentalists, and quite a few Pak soldiers have died in the tribal areas trying to push the militants out.

I’m going to cut the Muslims a bit of slack — the guy who trashed my church (St. Augustine) here in Culver City was turned in to the police by his imam. I can’t tar them all with the same brush.

unclesmrgol on December 2, 2008 at 6:43 PM

For another take on the Responsibility-of-Sovereignty issue, there’s Lee Harris’s essay Our World-Historical Gamble. (It can be found around the Web under that title.) It’s a bit long, but it exposes the issue very, very well. Harris comes to a very different solution, and it will not sit well with many America-Haters and isolationists (the America-Last’ers and the America-First’ers). Harris is an unabashed believer in America the Exception.

njcommuter on December 2, 2008 at 7:11 PM

Kagan says that the UN should set itself as an arbiter of national sovereignty. Does anyone else see the dangers of this plan?

Absolutely! Everybody knows that’s our job.

angelat0763 on December 2, 2008 at 10:38 PM

I’m going to cut the Muslims a bit of slack — the guy who trashed my church (St. Augustine) here in Culver City was turned in to the police by his imam. I can’t tar them all with the same brush.

unclesmrgol on December 2, 2008 at 6:43 PM

It’s true… and AQ kills more Muslims than Christians. their ideology terrorizes many more. We need them.

lexhamfox on December 2, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Nations have had to earn sovereignty throughout history. Sovereignty translates to “ruling control”, and if a nation doesn’t have sovereignty over an area within its borders, then someone else does, and the borders are redrawn.

Sovereignty is generally dependent on two balancing things — the force the sovereign can bring to bear on the territory, balanced against the will of the people in that area to subject themselves to the sovereign.

The American Colonies of Great Britain are a fine example in point. At one point the Colonies willingly subjected themselves to the Crown, but at some point they determined not to. The British were unable to reassert sovereignty, so it passed away from them.

The Civil War is another fine example. The Confederacy wrested sovereignty away from the Union, only to have the Union take it back.

Sovereignty is always transitory in the presence of war.

unclesmrgol on December 3, 2008 at 10:08 AM

Whither Pakistani UN sovereignty?

YES, BOOT THE FRIGGIN UN OUT OF THE UNITED STATES…

byteshredder on December 3, 2008 at 10:50 AM

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