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Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

posted at 5:30 pm on December 1, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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James Richardson tosses out the gauntlet at his new blog, The Skepticians, in discussing a recent ruling in Florida that overturned a ban on gay couples adopting children.  Richardson worked at the RNC this past year, and believes that the gay-rights issue will eventually marginalize the Republican Party.  He sharply criticizes the proponents of the ban in Florida:

Florida’s indefensible ban dates back 31 years to Anita Bryant’s “Save our Children” crusade. On the day of its passage, freshman Sen. Don Chamberlin of Clearwater asked of his colleagues: “Will we sleep better knowing we have institutionalized shame for those who have already felt shame? Is there sufficient justification to deny one child — one parent — the joy of being a family?” In the eyes of Florida’s state senate, there was, indeed, “sufficient justification” to pass the reprehensible ban. Chamberlin’s heartfelt and courageous plea was met with support of only four senators: Betty Castor, Jack Gordon, Kenneth Myers and Lori Wilson.

Joining Florida’s dubious ranks are Utah—a state settled largely for the Mormon Church’s non-conventional marriage practices (discontinued in 1890)—who bans unmarried straight or gay couples from adopting or fostering children, and Mississippi—a state with a less than sterling record in upholding the rights of minorities—who has legislation to ban gay couples, but not single gays, from adopting. What is it about gay couples like Frank Gill and his partner that are so toxic to children? Florida’s current listing of “adoptable” children includes 453 Boys, 274 Girls and 39 Sibling Groups – none of which can be adopted by gay men and women. Having the government (i.e. Katrina bunglers) raise the next generation of Americans seems much more preferential than a loving, stable home with, God forbid, two same-sex parents…

My support for gay adoption will surely be met with hostility and, no doubt, charges of RHINO’ism by many of my colleagues, but the Grand Old Party is at a crossroads and now is not the time for an echo chamber. Homosexual demagoguery is not the answer to the Party’s woes, particularly when gay men and women represent the only demographic in which John McCain bested President Bush (27% to 19% based on exit polling). And as Daniel Blatt notes, gay-hostile rhetoric no longer resonates in suburban areas with soccer moms, many of whom have gay friends or family members, and plays even worse with young voters, 61% of which voted against stripping gay couples of the right to marry.

In this case, the judge ruled that the state of Florida had conflicting statutes in allowing gay couples and single gay people to act as foster parents while denying them the right to adopt children.  That does seem rather strange.  If gay couples cannot adequately serve as adoptive parents, why would the state allow them to act in the more-risky role of foster parents?

My preference would be to see orphaned children placed in married homes with a mother and father.  That would be my preference for all children, as I believe that to be the healthiest environment in the general sense.  However, I would much rather see a child adopted by loving single parents or gay couples than raised in orphanages or series of foster homes.  While there are many couples waiting for babies through adoption services with wait times as long as five years, many children that are older or who have special needs wait for their entire childhood to find a home.

I’d prefer, though, that any changes to public policy come from the legislature or referendum.  The judge was right to note the hypocrisy, but judges should limit themselves to constitutional challenges when it comes to changing law.  Our system does not set judges as an unelected star chamber to decide on public policy.  The people of Florida may have a rational reason to have two sets of qualifications for foster homes and adoption, even if the judge doesn’t agree with it.  If it doesn’t violate the state constitution, then the judge’s role is to enforce the law, not change it.

Also, James is a nice guy — we’ve met a couple of times — but he takes the wrong tone in this challenge.  Public adoption is a difficult responsibility, and the opponents of gay adoption are concerned about the welfare of children placed in homes.  For some reason, James seems unwilling to credit them with any good motives at all.  If he doesn’t want hostility as a response, he might be advised not to offer it as an argument in the first place.


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and the other two (slavery and subjugation of women) were accepted by the bible.

That isn’t the same as condoning or teaching.

Still, the argument against gay relationships being “normal” has nothing to do with scripture. It has to do with biology.

The question of society’s attitude has to do with what’s best for society.

The question of adoption has to do with the child’s interest.

kcewa on December 1, 2008 at 8:17 PM

If I was able to (as a birth mom I will never be allowed to adopt a child, as per stipulation in law) I would adopt now. I really do not understand why people try so hard to adopt on the outside though. It makes me angry honestly.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:58 PM

You make a great point there. I know about the adoption process because my friends adopted two kids and I submitted a really long questionnaire about them (they weren’t even allowed to see what I wrote). They asked tons of detailed questions about their beliefs and lifestyle (they’re straight and married). They were basically an ideal adoptive couple — high income and college educated. It was grueling work going through that paperwork, but I think it was very important to do. If they put gay couples through that sort of screening, everything should be okay.

As for your comment about not allowing people to adopt children from overseas, I’m not sure how much of a difference that would make. Another friend of mine and her husband adopted three war orphans from Bosnia — all brothers, ages 3, 5, and 9 (at least those were their ages when they were adopted. They’re older now.) They would have adopted domestically if it were possible. I would really like to see statistics about adoptions because we’re bandying about notions of children languishing in little orphan Annie like orphanages. How realistic is that? The friends I know who have adopted spent years on waiting lists. I can’t imagine that there is ever a shortage of heterosexual couples who want to adopt.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

Could it be possible that humans have an invisible, immortal soul?

I assure you, I am not the one that is betting my soul.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:13 PM

I not only find it possible, but very believable. I am a Christian. Why do you assume that I am an atheist just because I disagree with you?

I asked a rhetorical question of you. Unlike many fundamentalist Christians here who are so quick to judge, I will leave the judging to my Creator. We will all have to answer for our own lives.

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

Let’s say that one state passed by popular referendum a measure making it illegal for Christians to marry. Would you say, “oh, well, we live in a democracy and the majority has spoken,” or would you fight like hell to overturn such a stupid decision?

That is an inaccurate analogy. You take something that has been part of our history for the entire life of our nation (and part of our cultures for much longer) and compare it to something that has never existed in any of our cultures. Second, we don’t live in a democracy – though California is set up to be more of a democracy with its ability to amend their Constitution through nothing but popular referenda. And, ganging up on Mormons is hardly “fight[ing] like hell to overturn” anything. That’s just social terrorism against the softest target. Great stuff, really …

I do not support any vandalism or violence, but other than that I have no problem with the protest marches. This is a separate issue, however.

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 8:10 PM

Those were not protest marches, but intentional intimidation and threats. Again, only at soft targets that they figure wouldn’t react to them. But, if you think that was good stuff, then I can see why we disagree on this issue.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

I’m upset that kids I’ll never meet are being raised by people I don’t know whose lifestyle I don’t approve of!

That sounds stupid doesn’t it? That’s your argument if you are against gay adoption.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

That’s not a good argument.

Substitute other people types in that final sentence and you might start to see how silly it is:

“That’s your argument if you are against serial killer adoption.”

“That’s your argument if you are against cannibal adoption.”

“That’s your argument if you are against flying purple monster adoption.”

There are good arguments in support of gay adoptions, but, this isn’t one of them.

[And, NO, I am definitely not equating gay people with serial killers, cannibals and/or flying purple monsters. It was merely to illustrate my point.]

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

I’m not a dog person, but I do think collies are good dogs. Especially CC’s, even if we don’t always agree. : )

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:16 PM

Imagine my position. Do you have ANY idea how many times I’ve posted my opinion, and some schmuck says, “Yeah, Yeah, Who cares what you think? What we want to know is, what does your collie say?”

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

Absent those numbers, it’s pretty much a question of bigotry – kind of like where we were with mixed-race couples 40 years ago.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 5:55 PM

No its not.

How can you compare the skin-deep bigotry against mixed-race marriages with the immoral, destructive ACTIONS performed by homosexuals?

And I say this as the brother of my younger sister, who married a black man… who is a true Christian brother… and is also strongly against homosexual “marriage”!

dominigan on December 1, 2008 at 8:22 PM

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

My understanding is that there is a 5+ years long waiting list for adoptions on newborns.

A couple year waiting list for adoptions of children under 4.

And very few people at all trying to adopt children 4 and older.

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 8:22 PM

I can’t imagine that there is ever a shortage of heterosexual couples who want to adopt.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

You are correct. There is NO shortage. Except for adopting a baby, you will be on that list forever. But to adopt a child over the age of 3 (sometimes 4) and over is almost NO waiting. Why is that… exactly what I stated.

People want untarnished children. Did you know that 7 in 10 couples will say NO to a child whom was born to a junkie. I kid you NOT!

Also.. I could have gotten a LARGE stipulation concerning money (actually it is almost like paying the birth mother now if you thik about it) for not doing drugs or drinking while I was pregnant. There is a cluase for it in the fine print depending on State that the adoptive parents can “pay” the mother for the fees and costs of being pregnant… NOT including the medical costs.

Pretty screwed up I think.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM

Unlike many fundamentalist Christians here who are so quick to judge, I will leave the judging to my Creator. We will all have to answer for our own lives.

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM

Agreed – BUT, we ALSO have an obligation to warn others about sin. Christians should NEVER stop calling sin what it is, viz. sin. If we remain silent, we are complicit.

My collie says

If you don’t believe CC, read the 3rd chapter of the book of Ezekiel. We CAN be held accountable for OTHER people’s sin.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM

Imagine my position. Do you have ANY idea how many times I’ve posted my opinion, and some schmuck says, “Yeah, Yeah, Who cares what you think? What we want to know is, what does your collie say?”

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

That’s the price to pay for having such a lovable and intelligent pet! I say this as one of my demon-cats seeks to jump on me from behind my back…

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM

Should perverts be allowed to adopt?

faraway on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

Let’s say that one state passed by popular referendum a measure making it illegal for Christians to marry. Would you say, “oh, well, we live in a democracy and the majority has spoken,” or would you fight like hell to overturn such a stupid decision?

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 8:10 PM

My guess is that they would say something to the effect of “well screw you anyway” and go on with having weddings in their own churches. You know, the same thing any homosexual couples could do now if they wanted.
As long has there are no laws against acting married without being married, no harm no foul.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

Should perverts be allowed to adopt?

faraway on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

How do you make the distinction?

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

My understanding is that there is a 5+ years long waiting list for adoptions on newborns.

A couple year waiting list for adoptions of children under 4.

And very few people at all trying to adopt children 4 and older.

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 8:22 PM

Jade it depends on the State honestly. Iowa and some other Midwestern States aren’t nearly as bad… but their laws can be more brutal then California if you can believe it.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:25 PM

Should perverts be allowed to adopt?

faraway on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

Do a bit of research. There is quite an extensive process to go through to adopt, including behavioral screenings. If you like leering at 12yo girls in the park, you’ll be weeded out. If you’re monogamous and have a stable life, you should be good to go.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:26 PM

Should perverts be allowed to adopt?

faraway on December 1, 2008 at 8:24 PM

research faraway. But then again.. you have men and women whom have children who have them raped and abused live on the internet, video taped and sold or sold into some weird prostitution ring. Because they can.

Should these people be able to have children or should they be castrated or killed?

You decide.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:28 PM

Agreed – BUT, we ALSO have an obligation to warn others about sin. Christians should NEVER stop calling sin what it is, viz. sin. If we remain silent, we are complicit.

Seems to me judging by many comments here that many of these good Christians should probably focus more upon the logs in their own eyes first. How many, after all, have adopted or would consider adopting a “less desireable” child, say a black baby born addicted to crack? Or perhaps a young boy who is difficult and already has gotten into some trouble?

No, it is far easier to sit here and warn others of their sin.

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 8:31 PM

you have men and women whom have children who have them raped and abused live on the internet, video taped and sold or sold into some weird prostitution ring. Because they can.
Should these people be able to have children or should they be castrated or killed?

Killed. But that’s an easy question.

kcewa on December 1, 2008 at 8:31 PM

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:25 PM

That’s a shame. Unless I couldn’t have children or the adoption would be my first child, I’d love an older kid. Less diapers for one thing. (I kid, I kid) They’re the ones that need a home most of all.

If Tim and I ever get rich, we’d love to add to our family – we’d go domestic and school-aged if we could.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:31 PM

[And, NO, I am definitely not equating gay people with serial killers, cannibals and/or flying purple monsters. It was merely to illustrate my point.]

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

2 of these have victims. 1 is imaginary.

Someone’s point is invalid, but I’m not sure if are correct in whose is.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 8:32 PM

Killed. But that’s an easy question.

kcewa on December 1, 2008 at 8:31 PM

Now what if you found a great couple whom actually cried about these children being in this danger? They are willing to adopt these children and do all the time, treatment and anything asked for to take care of these children.

Yet they are gay….

What would you do?

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:32 PM

I can corroborate this. I have seen the statistics as well. Children that are molested are nearly an order of magnitude more likely to become gay as an adult.

My collie says:

CC believes in numbers. So sue him.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 7:45 PM

You’re actually trying to show the reverse, that gays are much more likely to have been molested. But I’ll chip in that, yes, all of the gays I know the past of have been molested or otherwise carry a grudge against the opposite sex.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:33 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:31 PM

I wish I could adopt. It breaks my heart to see children in that state of mind. besides 7 yr olds are a blast with to go play in the snow….

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:34 PM

good Christians should probably focus more upon the logs in their own eyes first.

Yes, I agree about the log-in-eye thing.

But waht christians should really be focused on is saying that all are forgiven, not judged.

That however has nothing to do with the topic. And is a good reason not to argue ANY political issue on religious grounds. The gospel always gets tarnished.

kcewa on December 1, 2008 at 8:35 PM

Slavery, which was never a condition, but never condemned biblicaly (but certainly condoned).

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face you will eat bread.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 8:38 PM

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:34 PM

So are almost 6yos. I can mail you one if you’d like. She’d probably pester you about Sarah Palin though.
/kidding, kidding. I love my daughter.

It breaks my heart too, about those kids. My arms aren’t big enough to hug them all.

And you’re right, I’m just grumpy this month.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:38 PM

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM

Great posts tonight. Pet the collie for me.

As a Christian, I will love the Sinner, and hate the Sin.
Adoption is for the states to decide. But,saying that,allowing adoption by homosexuals could begin a push toward gay marriage, which the majority of the country is against. My first concern is the well-being of the children. More heterosexuals need to adopt older children.

kingsjester on December 1, 2008 at 8:38 PM

No, the GOP as a Party should not oppose gay adoption. As I have argued many times, that is something for individuals and private entities, not a party whose primary focus should be on governance. Leave the morality to aforementioned individuals and private groups.

Values are one thing: getting involved in morals is something else, which the GOP has been doing too much for too long.

William Teach on December 1, 2008 at 8:41 PM

But I’ll chip in that, yes, all of the gays I know the past of have been molested or otherwise carry a grudge against the opposite sex.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:33 PM

I have to admit myself that even my mom doesn’t like men very much, my husband the very rare exception. Heck, she wouldn’t even change her grandsons’ diapers, stating “she doesn’t do male genitalia.” Then again, I know others that were neither molested nor anti-opposite sex. It’s never one-size-fits-all.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:41 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:15 PM

I find it disappointing that discussions of gay marriage or gay adoption inevitably sink into crude pornographic comments. It doesn’t do your side any good to sexualize the discussion like this. I realize that you were responding to other posters, but you just keep sinking lower with this. It’s gross, and it’s one of the things I often criticize my gay friends for. They over-sexual everything, and it’s not healthy. And it’s one of the things that really offends more socially conservative people. And keep in mind that many Democrats describe themselves as socially conservative — as we saw with Prop 8.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 8:43 PM

Slavery, which was never a condition, but never condemned biblicaly (but certainly condoned).

That is totally inaccurate, when applied to slavery in the US. Biblical slavery was nothing of the sort, being closer to indentured servitude than American slavery. For instance, in the Old Testament, slaves had to be freed after 7 years and were not allowed to be made to work anytime that Jews were not allowed to work (as on Shabbat). Of course, these problems often occur in translation.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 8:43 PM

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 8:43 PM

I didn’t say it to offend, and honestly, I don’t find it that crude – no more crude than the invectives often said about gay people in other threads. I’m sorry that I offended you – but I’m not in charge of representing any side other than my own personal views. Just as you should not judge all gays based on the actions of a few, it is not right to judge the pro-gay adoption side by my use of a pithy statement that dates from before my lifetime.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:49 PM

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 8:32 PM

You’re point was that no one should care whether or not gay people adopt because it’s people we don’t know adopting children we don’t know.

You haven’t explicitly stated this, but, from your “two have victims 1 is imaginary” statement, I’m guessing you’re point is that since no one is hurt by gay adoptions, no one should care about it. If that’s the case, then, you’re argument is that no one should care because it’s “people we don’t know adopting children we don’t know and no one gets harmed.” This is a different argument that delves into whether or not a children is harmed by being raised by a same-sex couple (and, beyond that, whether this harm is greater than the harm caused by being raised by the state). There are definitely valid arguments to make there, but they aren’t made in your quip.

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 8:55 PM

I have to admit myself that even my mom doesn’t like men very much, my husband the very rare exception. Heck, she wouldn’t even change her grandsons’ diapers, stating “she doesn’t do male genitalia.” Then again, I know others that were neither molested nor anti-opposite sex. It’s never one-size-fits-all.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 8:41 PM

The case of resentment that I mention was more about envy than disliking any particular member of the opposite sex, as far as I can tell, and directed more at stereotypical behavior. Subtle, but enough to change behaviors in those of a certain ideological mind set. Over emphasis on sex, romance, and an ideal life are also common traits.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:57 PM

I just want to say real quick that this has been a good debate, a lot more civil than I honestly expected. Very thought-provoking, at least for me, as it’s not something I really think about.

I bid this thread adieu, at least for tonight. Time to put the kiddos to bed and work on some Christmas presents. Don’t get too feisty in here! : )

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 9:00 PM

For instance, in the Old Testament, slaves had to be freed after 7 years and were not allowed to be made to work anytime that Jews were not allowed to work (as on Shabbat). Of course, these problems often occur in translation.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 8:43 PM

If the slave was Jewish. If the slave was from a neighboring nation then you could keep them indefinitely and will them to your children, according to Leviticus.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:01 PM

Count to 10 on December 1, 2008 at 8:57 PM

Gotcha. I’ve seen that too, I understand what you mean.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 9:01 PM

Put 50 social conservatives or religious fundamentalists on the same island. Go back in 5 years. They will have executed each other as punishment for a breach of the moral code they used to judge others.

DCGamer on December 1, 2008 at 7:54 PM

Ahem. That little experiment has already been performed with great success or have you not heard of the United States of America? Last time I checked we haven’t “executed each other as punishment for a breach of the moral code they used to judge others”. In fact that little original group of social conservatives and religious fundamentalists created a nation envied by the world.

You were saying?

Guardian on December 1, 2008 at 9:03 PM

The best environment to raise a child is with BOTH a mother and a father. Anything else is cruel to the child. Homosexuals should not be able to adopt.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 5:44 PM

So it’s less cruel to deny them two fathers or two mothers?

That’s illogical.

My preference is this: first a mother and a father, then gay couples, then singles. But I see no logical reason to deny anyone the right to adopt unless something in their personal history suggests they’d be in any way abusive.

These are kids who are stuck in government orphanages or government foster homes. It really doesn’t get much worse than that. Even Oliver was better off with a gang of child pickpockets.

Esthier on December 1, 2008 at 6:19 PM

Uh, no. Its not. Condemning a child to be raised by an abnormal family (and yes, homosexual partners are abnormal), hurts the child. But it makes the homosexuals feel good. It is better to have the child raised by a single parent than homosexuals. Clue-in, adoption is what is best for the child, not to make homosexual partners feel good because nature can’t provide them what they want. There’s a reason for that. See if you can figure it out on your own.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 9:07 PM

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:01 PM

True enough. I stand corrected on that. But the work prohibitions applied to all.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 9:08 PM

I think the urge of homosexuality is only adopted by the human species of the animal kingdom. Someone, please correct me if my premise is baseless. All other animals faultlessly know that homosexuality is biologically absurd and a fruitless pursuit. In a disturbing psychological sense though, it seems to be very real for those that declare themselves as gay. Homosexuals whether single or peculiarly united only wish to adopt children, just as they have adopted their sexual disorder, not to love the child, but to use the child to somehow justify to themselves correctness of their own absurdity. Having a child justifies ones gayness like having a pencil makes me a prolific writer. Right?

ericdijon on December 1, 2008 at 9:09 PM

Clue-in, adoption is what is best for the child, not to make homosexual partners feel good because nature can’t provide them what they want. There’s a reason for that. See if you can figure it out on your own.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 9:07 PM

Best interest of the child is paramount. When a child is going into a new home, I think there should be a preference for straight married couples with reliable incomes.

Gay adoption would seem to be necessary in cases where a gay person is seeking to adopt the biological child of his/her partner.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:12 PM

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 8:34 PM

I came from a family that very much had (still has) an open door policy. We had my aunt and uncle living with us when I was born, my cousin and her 2 toddlers living with us when I was about 5, and foster kids when I was 8 (that was too hard for us though because we get attached so quickly and there’s no control over when they enter and leave your life). When I was 9, my parents fought the state of MO to get non-custodial legal guardianship of a neighborhood kid that everyone said was a bad seed (we were one of 2 families in the state that had full legal guardianship over a child that was not related to us). I grew up thinking of that kid as my brother (still do).

Family was never about genetics to my parents and they passed that along to us. It always shocks me when I find out that’s not how the average person feels about things.

I would adopt an older child in a minute if I weren’t sharing a 1 room apartment with a roommate. I actually found a kid that needed a home and was trying to line up adoptive parents for them. Everyone turned me down because “you just don’t know what kind of bad things a 12 year old has been exposed to and you can’t put your own family at risk”. It doesn’t matter that the kids an honor student that doesn’t cause anyone any problems.

The truth (in most cases) is that people want to make their mark on a child. They think that if they get a baby, it won’t matter that it’s not their flesh and blood because they can out nurture any nature and still have their “psychological imprint” on the child. With an older kid, they think there’s nothing left to do but provide food and shelter to a stranger.

I think it’s ridiculous that there are so many children without homes in a country as well off as this one. You can’t force people to open their hearts though.

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 9:12 PM

True enough. I stand corrected on that. But the work prohibitions applied to all.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 9:08 PM

Hey a day off is always appreciated. Sometimes it is hard to come by even in today’s free market economy.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:14 PM

Children being brought up by homosexuals, may be no better off than those raised by a single mom or single dad. Men and women are distinctly different. It takes both the strength and reason of a father, and the nurturing, care and emotional support of a mother to raise a healthy child. Of course this is the ideal, and no family lives up to it, but children that grow up in an overly feminine or masculine family, are not in balance in their reason and emotion.

The Feminizing of Society

garyganu on December 1, 2008 at 9:17 PM

Having a child justifies ones gayness like having a pencil makes me a prolific writer. Right?

ericdijon on December 1, 2008 at 9:09 PM

There are plenty of gay people who think that being Double-Income-No-Kids is the way to go. My wife is always jealous of her gay friends since they have cleaner and better decorated homes than our children allow us to have. My kids are the top priority in my life but they’ve never justified my straightness.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:19 PM

ericdijon on December 1, 2008 at 9:09 PM

Wrong, friend. The is homosexuality throughout nature.
Does that make it right?
In nature, you can also find dolphins raping each other, a bird chick murdering its smaller sibling, & gangs of chimps that delight in beating to death chimps from other gangs.

jgapinoy on December 1, 2008 at 9:22 PM

I think the urge of homosexuality is only adopted by the human species of the animal kingdom. Someone, please correct me if my premise is baseless. All other animals faultlessly know that homosexuality is biologically absurd and a fruitless pursuit. In a disturbing psychological sense though, it seems to be very real for those that declare themselves as gay.

When I was in New Zealand in 1995, I took a tour of the Albatross colony near Dunedin. The tour guide, no doubt a libtard, made a point of stating that a particular nest in the colony was occupied by two females. They had made a nest and, I guess, humped each other according to the guide. He said it was evidence of homosexuality being a natural phenomenon!!! WHAT A SCHMUCK!!!! So the only explanation is that the two birds were homosexual?!?!?!?! And humans are the moral equivalent of birds!?!?!?!?! Therefore, by liberal reasoning, human homosexuality is a natural phenomenon. And the ass-screwing in male prisons is also natural I suppose. If I was not on the tour, I’d take that tour guide to task.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 9:22 PM

My kids are the top priority in my life but they’ve never justified my straightness.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:19 PM

Forgive the trite movie dialog, but having your children has defined your straightness. Straight couples adopting children defines their normalness.

ericdijon on December 1, 2008 at 9:23 PM

Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

It can if it wants to, but it needs to come up with at least 10 higher priority issues to take to the voters. Having better ideas about smaller government, lower taxes, combating terror, improving education, fixing health care, or gaining energy independence are important toward convincing voters that the GOP is serious about operating the government in a way that will make people’s lives better.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM

The demonization of gays and hispanics will cause the GOP to lose many generations to come. drop it now.

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM

For instance, in the Old Testament, slaves had to be freed after 7 years and were not allowed to be made to work anytime that Jews were not allowed to work (as on Shabbat). Of course, these problems often occur in translation.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 8:43 PM

If the slave was Jewish. If the slave was from a neighboring nation then you could keep them indefinitely and will them to your children, according to Leviticus.

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:01 PM

That is mildly interesting as a digression but not salient to the charge that the Bible condones slavery.

The passage I quoted upthread…

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face you will eat bread.

…was often quoted by Abraham Lincoln who in May 1864 (to take a single example) wrote to a delegation of Baptists, “To read in the Bible, as the word of God himself, that ‘In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,’ and to preach there-from that, ‘In the sweat of other mans faces shalt thou eat bread,’ to my mind can scarcely be reconciled with honest sincerity.”

What does this have to do with arguments about gay adoption? Technically nothing though supporters of gay adoption seem to think that attacking Christianity will advance their cause. Perhaps they are right but they jeopardise the position of moderates like dedalus who argue that the mainstreaming of homosexuality is incidental to (specifically Christian) religious freedom.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM

DC Gamer:

“Put 50 social conservatives or religious fundamentalists on the same island…”

Actually, since we’re talking about adoptive parents, the appropriate comparison would be to put 50 infertile men and women on an island. If folks want to make the “natural order” argument, then men and women who can’t produce their own children shouldn’t be allowed to adopt either. End of story. And adoptions, of course.

JM Hanes on December 1, 2008 at 9:28 PM

Forgive the trite movie dialog, but having your children has defined your straightness. Straight couples adopting children defines their normalness.

ericdijon on December 1, 2008 at 9:23 PM

Most married guys I’ve known were demonstrably straight long before they had children. Those without children continue to define their straightness though their sexual attraction toward women.

Pregnancy is a byproduct of straight sexual attraction, but that shared attraction is not always the foundation for sustaining a family. Rather, children are often inhibitors of one’s sex drive (through fatigue) or sexual activity (by their presence).

dedalus on December 1, 2008 at 9:34 PM

They had made a nest and, I guess, humped each other according to the guide. He said it was evidence of homosexuality being a natural phenomenon!!

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 9:22 PM

You should have pointed out that the Gay birds were naturally childless and nature deals with homosexuality by keeping Gay animals from procreating and further spreading the aberration. It is Nature’s way of keeping Gay animals from raising offspring.

Guardian on December 1, 2008 at 9:34 PM

Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

Yes. Next question …

AZ_Redneck on December 1, 2008 at 9:34 PM

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM

Well said and very reasonable. BTW, I didn’t mean to step on your original comment.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 9:37 PM

I think it’s ridiculous that there are so many children without homes in a country as well off as this one. You can’t force people to open their hearts though.

JadeNYU on December 1, 2008 at 9:12 PM

That is exactly what I am trying to say but I am not as good as explaining myself.

Everyone in here has heard stories of that old guy or older gal (grandparents type) whom have adopted older children from all walks of life and color as well as religon, and these people raise these childrena dn most come out on top if not BETTER then those whom were raised in a “normal” family atmosphere.

And none of these peole whom look at these older people raising these children say a bad word against them. Some of these people are poor, older, single and GAY (whoa what a concept) and raising these kids to adulthood. And no one cared until lately.

I wish that those would look in the past and see this issue that they say is unholy or nasty and perverse, and maybe wake up.

My best friends were raised that way. One had no where to go and the State even gave up on him. He had an older, single, come to find out gay male whom owned a awesome business and brought my friend in at the age of 12. My friend will see him as his father forever. His parents died when he was 2 in a car accident and was raised via foster care. My friend is not gay.

Another was raped in foster care, before the extreme checks were started, from 4 to 9 yrs old. An older woman took her in whom wasn’t rich but had a rich life by doing all kinds of sports, and activities and raised my female friend with the understanding bad things happen but you have to move past it to make life worth living. This older woman was a lesbian and was a awesome role model. When the adopted mom died of breast cancer I was there at my girl friends side. She was the only mom my girl friend knew.

Sometimes, it isn’t how people are, it is how they are treated.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 9:39 PM

The demonization of gays and hispanics will cause the GOP to lose many generations to come. drop it now.

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM

The GOP has never “demonised” Hispanics although I’m sure you consider opposing the illegal immigration of millions of Hispanics to be just that. The GOP is toast and when the US becomes a Hispanic-majority country the homosexuals will be toast as well. By “toast” I mean that homosexuals will be oppressed for real as opposed to the pseudo-oppression of not being given everything they desire at the drop of a hat.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 9:43 PM

Here is something interesting to read. I still don’t know about this subject. The GOP has to do something to reach gays. There are a lot of gays. But am undecided. I will read this in a bit. It is a PDF file. To many children do need a loving home.

http://www.afany.org/HPR.pdf

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 9:44 PM

Actually kcewa,
the Bible does not condone either slavery or the subjugation of women. To read the New Testament and try to argue that women are marginalized by Christianity is to be intellectually dishonest. The NT argues that men and women have seperate roles but (especially in marriage) they are equals. Slavery is a little tougher, because the Bible does not condemn slavery (though for those of you in debt, it does condemn making yourself a slave to debtors)…however, it never condones slavery. The difference between that and homosexuality is immense, because Scripture (in both the Old and New Testament) clearly teaches that homosexuality is sin and God condemns it.
All that said (and being honest enough to say that I am a conservative, Bible thumping, Christian. I am also a conservative libertarian politically and affiliate with the Constitution Party)…I think that this is a losing battle for the Republican Party. The argument can be made that some gay couples make better parents than some straight couples. Also, from a conservative standpoint we want MORE people adopting and less people aborting…so making adoption more difficult makes no sense. My belief? We have bigger fish to fry as conservatives than gay marriage and gay adoption…lets focus more on abortion, religious freedom, and freedom of speech.

therambler on December 1, 2008 at 9:46 PM

I think the urge of homosexuality is only adopted by the human species of the animal kingdom. Someone, please correct me if my premise is baseless.

It is baseless. Plenty of mammals and birds have been observed. I was discussing this issue with a scientist last year at the Natural History Museum in London and apparently many observers must have omitted such observations from their notes but now with more and more cameras and recording devices the behavior is found in more and more species. The particular species he was discussing the censorship of records was among swans.

Plenty of gay men and women used to be married in heterosexual relationships and raised children. I have a few friends with gay parents. They are as capable as anyone else of raising children.

lexhamfox on December 1, 2008 at 9:49 PM

Way too long a thread to wade through.

Homosexuality is either a birth defect, or a perversion, or some combination of the two. Since the question is still open, the Republican party should err on the side of normality and traditional morality, and so should oppose adoption of children by homosexuals.

End of story.

MrLynn on December 1, 2008 at 9:51 PM

Plenty of gay men and women used to be married in heterosexual relationships and raised children. I have a few friends with gay parents. They are as capable as anyone else of raising children.

lexhamfox on December 1, 2008 at 9:49 PM

Is why it is tough. I know many incredible young adults. They were raised by Gay parents. Very loving families.

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 9:54 PM

Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

Yes.

Not sure who’d want to adopt a gay in the first place….

Scribbler on December 1, 2008 at 9:57 PM

The GOP is toast and when the US becomes a Hispanic-majority country the homosexuals will be toast as well.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 9:43 PM

Si! When we get our amnesty we will come out of the sombras and we will bring all our muchos familiares norte and we will all have at least diez ninos and in a generacion you Gringos will all be hablando un espanola and taking ordenes from us. The Gringo Republicans will never win another el Presidenete election and Gays will have to go hide in the sombras.

NoBordersJose on December 1, 2008 at 9:57 PM

Uh, no. Its not. Condemning a child to be raised by an abnormal family (and yes, homosexual partners are abnormal), hurts the child. But it makes the homosexuals feel good. It is better to have the child raised by a single parent than homosexuals. Clue-in, adoption is what is best for the child, not to make homosexual partners feel good because nature can’t provide them what they want. There’s a reason for that. See if you can figure it out on your own.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 1, 2008 at 9:07 PM

I was trying to be kind is saying your comment was illogical, and now you’re just getting worse.

A single parent is also abnormal, and one parent cannot provide the care that two can. One parent is less likely to be able to financially support the child and has less of a support structure if he or she has to work or do anything else that takes him or her out of the house.

Besides, the issue here isn’t whether or not singles should take a priority over a homosexual couple, (and really, if singles can adopt, then one half of a gay couple can as well) but that homosexuals should be able to adopt at all.

The option isn’t singles or homosexual couples but rather forcing kids to stay in government care, which is disgustingly horrible, instead of allowing homosexual couples to adopt.

Even many people who believe homosexuality is a sin still believe that a kid is better off in a family rather than as a ward of the state.

Esthier on December 1, 2008 at 9:58 PM

I think the urge of homosexuality is only adopted by the human species of the animal kingdom. Someone, please correct me if my premise is baseless.

Other animals do it too. Why just yesterday I witnessed various animals: skunks, crocodiles and a half-dozen newts assault an old lady outside a Mormon temple. They were growling and chittering about “bashing back” or whatever.

Bishop on December 1, 2008 at 9:59 PM

Also, from a conservative standpoint we want MORE people adopting and less people aborting…so making adoption more difficult makes no sense. My belief? We have bigger fish to fry as conservatives than gay marriage and gay adoption…lets focus more on abortion, religious freedom, and freedom of speech.

I really dislike the “bigger fish to fry” line of thinking. Its possible to hold and care about several opinions at once. You don’t have to stop caring about one issue because some other issue seems paramount. Besides the “rights” of homosexuals are connected to issues like religious freedom and freedom of speech. When homosexual activity become normalised you right to disapprove of that lifestyle becomes discriminatory i.e. illegal.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 9:59 PM

Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

Yes.

I teach middle school children. They HATE it when their parents are homosexuals. It screws them up. I have never in 27 years of teaching taught a happy, well-adjusted child with a homosexual for a parent. At this age they still have a right/wrong sense of morality and they KNOW it’s wrong. Over time we become comfortable in our sin but that doesn’t set in till later for whom it applies.

Mojave Mark on December 1, 2008 at 10:00 PM

The GOP is toast and when the US becomes a Hispanic-majority country the homosexuals will be toast as well.

At least the peppers will be cheaper.

Bishop on December 1, 2008 at 10:01 PM

Regardless of how people feel about the propriety of gay adoption, the question of whether the GOP, as a political entity, should oppose gay adoption is, in fact, a political question. If you believe that the political calculus should have no bearing here, you can certainly choose to ignore it. You will not, however, be able to ignore the consequences. If the GOP positions itself against gay adoption, prepare yourself for the political wilderness under one party rule, because that’s where you’ll be fighting the rest of your battles too.

JM Hanes on December 1, 2008 at 10:06 PM

Regardless of how people feel about the propriety of gay adoption, the question of whether the GOP, as a political entity, should oppose gay adoption is, in fact, a political question. If you believe that the political calculus should have no bearing here, you can certainly choose to ignore it. You will not, however, be able to ignore the consequences. If the GOP positions itself against gay adoption, prepare yourself for the political wilderness under one party rule, because that’s where you’ll be fighting the rest of your battles too.

JM Hanes on December 1, 2008 at 10:06 PM

If the GOP is not electorally viable without becoming a gay rights party then thats it. Game over. One party rule is as good as two parties with the same policies. Whats the difference? As for the mythic pursuance of small government I’d suggest searching for the Elysian Fields or the lost continent of Atlanis. It would be more realistic.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 10:17 PM

In answer to the original question, “Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?”: My opinion is NO.

My Reasoning: With due dillegence (sp?) in the selection process the application of gay\not gay as a criteria as a disqualifyer is not based on the law; it is based on emotion, fear and religious beliefs. Each of these are acceptable when making a personal decision – because they are in fact personal; none are acceptable when making laws or public policy – because these are not personal decisions but require the application of law.

I said this was my OPINION because I do not take this position – in this discussion – based on constitutional law or some other legal argument. I say NO because… every time the GOP takes a position based on emotion or religious beliefs, the GOP weakens the conservative argument for leadership.

I am not arguing against the Judeo-Christian foudation of western civilization. I AM arguing for considering Honor, Duty, Reason and Country as the foudations for any GOP position – first, second and last.

Anything which cannot stand firmly on those planks should be put on the back burner if not discarded outright.

Just an opinion…

Unquiet on December 1, 2008 at 10:25 PM

Entering the thread without reading a single one of the 372 comments is … empowering, or something. Here’s my completely true and very real story and challenge to my fellow (Christian) conservatives:

My friend is very smart, very talented, a serious Christian, and a lesbian. We met at our church. She was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, but in college figured out that she was different.

She has made a lifetime commitment to her only love, her best friend in college, and they have a household. I don’t call it a marriage, but that’s the word they would use; she says she has a wife.

They have adopted three children from their birth mother, one after another as they were born. Their mother has at least three more of her own; she’s a baby factory. She’s also a drug addict and a domestic disaster. I believe all of the fathers are different men. She is black, all of the kids are black, and my friends are white.

There is no couple that I know who are more loving, more responsible, more attentive and focused on the upbringing of their kids than these two women. They are the perfect mothers. Do the kids need a father? IMO, yes, absolutely.

Will they have serious racial issues to deal with as they grow up in our racially diverse church and town, with two white lesbian mothers? IMO, hell yes.

Even so, these kids have won the lottery of life. They have gone from an environment where their very survival was dicey, and their prospects for a physically and mentally successful life were nil, and into an environment where they will ultimately be able to determine their own positions in all of life’s important issues.

This story has changed my position on gay abortion. A loving parent can save a child’s life. And being gay won’t change that.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 10:25 PM

Sorry, I’m on three hours sleep. That would be gay ADOPTION. Heh.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 10:27 PM

If the GOP is not electorally viable without becoming a gay rights party then thats it. Game over. One party rule is as good as two parties with the same policies. Whats the difference? As for the mythic pursuance of small government I’d suggest searching for the Elysian Fields or the lost continent of Atlanis. It would be more realistic.

aengus on December 1, 2008 at 10:17 PM

The GOP doesn’t have to become a gay rights party. Punt. When left to themselves, most communities choose to give heterosexuality a privileged status anyway.

RightOFLeft on December 1, 2008 at 10:33 PM

I dunno, adoption seems pretty gay as it is. Taking care of somebody else’s baby? So gay.

Jim Treacher on December 1, 2008 at 10:41 PM

YES! Why? Two words; Rosie O’Donnell.

Star20 on December 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM

I know it may not sound good but it’s true:

Love is NOT enough.

A boy needs a father and a mother. I know the values of my uncle who is gay and my dead uncle of AIDS.

There is no way I want these types raising boys. No F’in way. I love my uncle and I loved the one who died of AIDS. But these two are in no way and never would be good fathers, NEVER.

A boy needs a father and mother period, and especially the straight father to teach him self-reliance and responsibility, and a moral ubbringing, and not sodomy and selfishness and self-indulgence.

We have to draw the line somewhere.

Sapwolf on December 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM

I am gay. I would have loved to have had a child. My nine nieces and nephews are a huge part have made my life worth living.

James Treacher writes, “dunno, adoption seems pretty gay as it is. Taking care of somebody else’s baby? So gay.” You win the award for the dumbest response on this thread.

SC.Charlie on December 1, 2008 at 10:52 PM

My collie says:

CC, may I pee on Treacher?

What makes you think that it would help?

My collie says:

Who said anything about helping Treacher?

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 10:53 PM

This story has changed my position on gay abortion. A loving parent can save a child’s life. And being gay won’t change that.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 10:25 PM

For girls maybe.

No way for Boys. No way. Boys need MEN.

Love is NOT enough, but it is a start.

Sapwolf on December 1, 2008 at 10:54 PM

And children are NOT an entitlement. They are not a ticketpunching thing. You don’t have children to FEEL good like they are some pet or something.

They are a gift. A gift of tremendous responsibility. A wonderful gift.

Sapwolf on December 1, 2008 at 10:56 PM

Star20 on December 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM writes, “YES! Why? Two words; Rosie O’Donnell.” And, the list of natural parents who do a horrible job of raising their children are endless. I am gay. I don’t like Rosie, but has she been proven to be a bad parent?

SC.Charlie on December 1, 2008 at 10:57 PM

I am not arguing against the Judeo-Christian foudation of western civilization. I AM arguing for considering Honor, Duty, Reason and Country as the foudations for any GOP position – first, second and last.

Anything which cannot stand firmly on those planks should be put on the back burner if not discarded outright.

Just an opinion…

Unquiet on December 1, 2008 at 10:25 PM

That belief will be off the backburner and in the fire in no-time. There is a world like that. It is called the UK.

And Yes, you are attacking the Judeo-Christianity of Western Civilization whether you like it or not.

The same civilization that gives you your opinion.

Sapwolf on December 1, 2008 at 11:04 PM

Christians should NEVER stop calling sin what it is, viz. sin. If we remain silent, we are complicit.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM

If we deny adults the ability to rescue children from the System solely because said adults are homosexual, we are a heckuva lot worse than merely “complicit”.

SlimyBill on December 1, 2008 at 11:07 PM

If we deny adults the ability to rescue children from the System solely because said adults are homosexual, we are a heckuva lot worse than merely “complicit”.

SlimyBill on December 1, 2008 at 11:07 PM

Precisely. It’s ludicrous that pro gay adoption people are the ones who are accused of putting emotion ahead of what’s best for the children, when its the social con position that denies children a room and a family of their own.

justfinethanks on December 1, 2008 at 11:13 PM

Virtually every gay person I know says that they knew since they were young children that they were “different” – and gay. We may not know the exact cause today, but one day we will. People are “born gay” – just as I was programmed not to be taller than 5′1″.

Gay couples can be great or lousy parents – just like straight couples. Sexual orientation should not be a reason to deny adoption to a couple.

As someone who is turned off by many aspects of left-thinking today, I am saddened by much of what I read here. I have gay friends, family, bridge partners, clients…. they are all fine people, and I am proud to include them in my circle. Beliefs that because they love someone of the same sex they are perverts or bad people is not only wrong – it is harming Republicans in getting votes. If you think that far left politicians will better represent your viewpoints, then continue to be strongly biased against gays.

pbundy on December 1, 2008 at 11:17 PM

This story has changed my position on gay abortion. A loving parent can save a child’s life. And being gay won’t change that.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 10:25 PM

I agree. Is easy for others to bash ones sexuality. Why are there so many kids in our Country that don’t have a family? Children don’t judge. One thing I noticed. There should be strict rules for straight and gay adoptions. There are a lot of straight people that don’t deserve children also. There are foster parents around here. This woman two blocks away has four foster kids. She spends all their checks on her. Her house is a pig sty. She has a drunken man. Shacks up. At times you can hear her screaming at those kids. Another woman killed her nephew. Adopted him from her sister. Then beat him to death. My two friends are Gay men. Adopted two kids. Years ago. One is interning and is a Doctor. The other one is a Scientist. Wonderful young people. They love those two men. So, it is hard. Bad on both sides and good on both sides.

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 11:18 PM

NoBordersJose on December 1, 2008 at 9:57 PM

odelay!

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 11:18 PM

there are alotta gay conservatives out there, in fact mccain won more gays than any Republican ever has. is it really worth it to keep pissing off voters? isn’t the party on life support as it is?

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 11:21 PM

Love is NOT enough, but it is a start.

Sapwolf on December 1, 2008 at 10:54 PM

Disagreed. It may be the only thing kids need. Ever read about the experiments on rhesus monkeys by Harlow?

Your late uncle, SW – would he have wished to raise a child? I’m guessing not.

One size does not fit all, but I increasingly see no logic in depriving children of the possibility of a loving parent because we don’t think that a given parent would be perfect. What parent is? And don’t make me say the B name!

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 11:21 PM

This issue shouldn’t be about politics. It should be about loving parents raising adopted children that might otherwise have been aborted or raised by people who hate them.

Isn’t that more important than electoral considerations?

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 11:30 PM

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 11:18 PM

It’s hard to say, but I was wrong on this issue. I want to be right now. I have seen what success looks like, and it’s beautiful.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 11:32 PM

SC.Charlie on December 1, 2008 at 10:52 PM

You’re new here; get the lay of the land. Treacher has a quirky sarcasm, and you missed it. Been there, done that.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 11:34 PM

“If the GOP is not electorally viable without becoming a gay rights party then thats it. Game over.”

If that’s all you really care about, then yes, it would be game over for single issue social conservatives. The point, of course, is that if the GOP segues from anti-gay marriage to the kind of anti-gay messages being penned in this forum, your goose will ultimately be cooked on every other front as well. Political and fiscal conservatives along with socially moderate Republicans will be fighting their battles within the newly enlarged Democratic party. The current conservative Democratic minority will be spreading out the welcome mat, and none of them will be looking for your votes.

You could, of course, choose to fight your social battles in the social arena, instead of being left out in the cold entirely. You can say game over, but I really think you have no idea just how cold it will get out there. Ironically, if you were a traditional conservative, you wouldn’t be trying to cement traditional social values through legislation or trying to do so at the federal level in the first place. I note that you’ve already said game over with regard to the size of government anyway, so I’d say you’ve already abandoned conservativism not vice versa.

JM Hanes on December 1, 2008 at 11:37 PM

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