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Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

posted at 5:30 pm on December 1, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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James Richardson tosses out the gauntlet at his new blog, The Skepticians, in discussing a recent ruling in Florida that overturned a ban on gay couples adopting children.  Richardson worked at the RNC this past year, and believes that the gay-rights issue will eventually marginalize the Republican Party.  He sharply criticizes the proponents of the ban in Florida:

Florida’s indefensible ban dates back 31 years to Anita Bryant’s “Save our Children” crusade. On the day of its passage, freshman Sen. Don Chamberlin of Clearwater asked of his colleagues: “Will we sleep better knowing we have institutionalized shame for those who have already felt shame? Is there sufficient justification to deny one child — one parent — the joy of being a family?” In the eyes of Florida’s state senate, there was, indeed, “sufficient justification” to pass the reprehensible ban. Chamberlin’s heartfelt and courageous plea was met with support of only four senators: Betty Castor, Jack Gordon, Kenneth Myers and Lori Wilson.

Joining Florida’s dubious ranks are Utah—a state settled largely for the Mormon Church’s non-conventional marriage practices (discontinued in 1890)—who bans unmarried straight or gay couples from adopting or fostering children, and Mississippi—a state with a less than sterling record in upholding the rights of minorities—who has legislation to ban gay couples, but not single gays, from adopting. What is it about gay couples like Frank Gill and his partner that are so toxic to children? Florida’s current listing of “adoptable” children includes 453 Boys, 274 Girls and 39 Sibling Groups – none of which can be adopted by gay men and women. Having the government (i.e. Katrina bunglers) raise the next generation of Americans seems much more preferential than a loving, stable home with, God forbid, two same-sex parents…

My support for gay adoption will surely be met with hostility and, no doubt, charges of RHINO’ism by many of my colleagues, but the Grand Old Party is at a crossroads and now is not the time for an echo chamber. Homosexual demagoguery is not the answer to the Party’s woes, particularly when gay men and women represent the only demographic in which John McCain bested President Bush (27% to 19% based on exit polling). And as Daniel Blatt notes, gay-hostile rhetoric no longer resonates in suburban areas with soccer moms, many of whom have gay friends or family members, and plays even worse with young voters, 61% of which voted against stripping gay couples of the right to marry.

In this case, the judge ruled that the state of Florida had conflicting statutes in allowing gay couples and single gay people to act as foster parents while denying them the right to adopt children.  That does seem rather strange.  If gay couples cannot adequately serve as adoptive parents, why would the state allow them to act in the more-risky role of foster parents?

My preference would be to see orphaned children placed in married homes with a mother and father.  That would be my preference for all children, as I believe that to be the healthiest environment in the general sense.  However, I would much rather see a child adopted by loving single parents or gay couples than raised in orphanages or series of foster homes.  While there are many couples waiting for babies through adoption services with wait times as long as five years, many children that are older or who have special needs wait for their entire childhood to find a home.

I’d prefer, though, that any changes to public policy come from the legislature or referendum.  The judge was right to note the hypocrisy, but judges should limit themselves to constitutional challenges when it comes to changing law.  Our system does not set judges as an unelected star chamber to decide on public policy.  The people of Florida may have a rational reason to have two sets of qualifications for foster homes and adoption, even if the judge doesn’t agree with it.  If it doesn’t violate the state constitution, then the judge’s role is to enforce the law, not change it.

Also, James is a nice guy — we’ve met a couple of times — but he takes the wrong tone in this challenge.  Public adoption is a difficult responsibility, and the opponents of gay adoption are concerned about the welfare of children placed in homes.  For some reason, James seems unwilling to credit them with any good motives at all.  If he doesn’t want hostility as a response, he might be advised not to offer it as an argument in the first place.


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Clearly you haven’t spent much time with hetero guys between the ages of 14 and 25. That’s pretty much all they hope for.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:11 PM

But hetero men have to deal with women, not other men. In the gay male “relationship” there are two sides both having testosterone driving them, which takes the brakes off of everything.

I made the point that hetero males might HOPE to achieve the same sort of activity, but the estrogen of the women usually stops them from achieving it, so it remains nothing more than a pipe dream. On the other hand, I have gay male friends who tell me stories of screwing 5 or 10 guys in a night of clubbing and regularly pick up strangers in bathrooms and other public places. They tell stories of sex lives that not even the biggest straight casanova I’ve known has come close to. But, that’s the difference between a testosterone-testosterone sexual relationship and a testosterone-estrogen one.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:19 PM

Homosexuality is complex, and I am convinced that the “taught” behavior is as important as the genetic component. I am not in favor of spreading a sexual dysfunction to any child if it is at all possible to prevent.

Children learn how to be a parent and a spouse from their parents, primarily. What will a boy learn about how to treat his wife from a pair of fathers? No, the effeminate one does not qualify as a mother.

This issue is complicated by the myriad horrible parenting models available in the world at large — the opposition will ask if we should be taking kids from hetero parents who are not good role models? Of course not – but here, we’re discussing the standards we use to CHOOSE good parents for kids who already have some strikes against them.

I think there are good and rational reasons to abhor this idea. Homosexuality, like its more dangerous cousin (paedophilia), is an anti-reproductive maladaption. People who suffer this disease are not themselves bad or evil — but they are certainly not the ideal guardians for developing human beings.

Prufrock on December 1, 2008 at 6:20 PM

TheUnrepentantGeek on December 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM

My faith would be a private orphanage. HOWEVER, straight parents who want to adopt must go out of the country to adopt.

How about we let them adopt american children??? No orphanage needed.

allrsn on December 1, 2008 at 6:20 PM

My preference would be to see orphaned children placed in married homes with a mother and father. That would be my preference for all children, as I believe that to be the healthiest environment in the general sense. However, I would much rather see a child adopted by loving single parents or gay couples than raised in orphanages or series of foster homes. While there are many couples waiting for babies through adoption services with wait times as long as five years, many children that are older or who have special needs wait for their entire childhood to find a home.

My position too.

rbj on December 1, 2008 at 6:21 PM

There’s a difference between the “gay lifestyle” and gay marriage/adoption. Almost everything that people find abhorrent about Pridefest/Folsom Street/Whatever is entirely irrelevant to a discussion of people who actually want normal-ish domesticity.

If two guys are seriously getting married and adopting children, I find it hard to believe that they’re also the same dudes marching down the street in assless chaps.

Lehosh on December 1, 2008 at 6:05 PM

Bingo! There’s a lot of generalization going on here, because these are the loudest and most visible gay people. It’s like the world thinking the MoveOn crowd represents the United States just because they get the most media buzz. I think it’s easier for us in the bluer states to get this because the gay people are more open about it – we know who they are and they’re mostly pretty normal (and in many cases nicer than normal) people. There are assholes and angels in every demographic, and the gay community tends to be fairly polarized in this area. I know gay people that would be far more loving and caring parents than some heterosexual people I know (and the other way around).

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:21 PM

Should the GOP oppose gay adoption?

No.

My preference would be to see orphaned children placed in married homes with a mother and father. That would be my preference for all children, as I believe that to be the healthiest environment in the general sense. However, I would much rather see a child adopted by loving single parents or gay couples than raised in orphanages or series of foster homes.

Yup.

The Ugly American on December 1, 2008 at 6:22 PM

The GOP ought to stand strongly against homosexual marriage and adoption and against permitting homosexual activist groups like Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network (GLSEN) and Planned Parenthood from sexualizing our own children, through indoctrination programs, in our public schools.

Permitting homosexuals to adopt children will simply increase the numbers of children who are taken to the yearly Folsom Street Fair for the lewd anti-Christian perversion fest. Michelle Malkin has information about this, including photos, on her website.

sinsing on December 1, 2008 at 6:22 PM

Permitting homosexuals to adopt children will simply increase the numbers of children who are taken to the yearly Folsom Street Fair for the lewd anti-Christian perversion fest. Michelle Malkin has information about this, including photos, on her website.

sinsing on December 1, 2008 at 6:22 PM

You’re letting a minority of gays represent the whole bunch. Believe it or not, there are plenty of gays who outside of their sexuality are perfectly indistinguishable from everyone else you know. They’re doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the occasional clergyman.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Permitting homosexuals to adopt children will simply increase the numbers of children who are taken to the yearly Folsom Street Fair for the lewd anti-Christian perversion fest. Michelle Malkin has information about this, including photos, on her website.

sinsing on December 1, 2008 at 6:22 PM

Do you point to the underage kids who roam Bourbon St. during Mardi Gras as evidence that straight people are trying to influence children with the weird, sexual, drunken stuff that goes on there?

justfinethanks on December 1, 2008 at 6:29 PM

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 5:55 PM
I’m just sitting around wondering what the correlation is between homosexuality and pedophilia. I’m going to guess that it’s pretty close to what it is for heterosexuals, but if someone has real numbers one way or the other I’d love to hear them.

The percentage of male-on-male child molestation offenders is about twenty times the percentage of homosexuals in the male population. http://www.afamichigan.org/2005/06/07/homosexual-pedophiles-are-vastly-overrepresented-in-child-sex-abuse-cases/

Of course, the good news is that you can simply define away the problem by assuming that any homosexual who has sex with a male who’s under 18 magically becomes non-homosexual. Using the liberal version of statistics, we find that the number of homosexual child molesters becomes [wait a minute; carry the three; divide by the sum of, um...] Oh, there is is: zero.

Of course, the bad news is that if you get drunk and accidentally take home a 17-year-old cheerleader, then you’re magically not a heterosexual anymore.

logis on December 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

No the GOP should not oppose gay adoption, good grief.

doubleplusundead on December 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

WTF is anyone on here, to declare that one person is better at raising a Child then another?

Interesting observations here.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 6:18 PM

First off, I’d appreciate it if you’d chill out and take the time to read my posts before flying off the handle at me.
In my first post I stated that I thought the GOP should not touch this issue.
In my second post I was asking one poster who accused anyone who thought that kids are better off in a two-parent mom and dad family of being homophobic to consider that many of those folks are motivated by support of a traditional family structure, not hate.
The use of “traditional” sparked another poster to fly off the handle, so I switched it to “biological.” However, I really think “traditional” is the word I want. Yes, there is diversity in family structures, but the U.S. traditional nuclear family has been a mom and a dad. Go check out a Hallmark store if you need confirmation of this.

It ticks me off that any attempt by anyone to comment on a thread about gay issues with anything other than “anything goes” runs the risk of being labeled and attacked.

As for your family issues, I couldn’t care less.

What I can tell you from my own experience, my dad’s expertise in this area, and my own reading is that childhood development is a complicated thing. Kids are affected dramatically by simple things like the care they receive when they are babies. I would not dismiss out of hand that things like having a mom and dad in the household might matter.

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

I wholly disagree. Opponents of gay adoption are primarily interested in using the government to enforce their anit-gay bigotry.

True.

Gay couples tend to be more affluent and better educated than straight couples.

Not true for gay couples raising children.

If opponents of gay adoption were interested in child welfare, they wouldn’t be opponents of gay adoption.

Maybe marriage or equivalent civil union rights would help the quarter of a million kids being raised by gay couples in the USA.

Big S on December 1, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Of course, the bad news is that if you get drunk and accidentally take home a 17-year-old cheerleader, then you’re magically not a heterosexual anymore.

logis on December 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

That’s legal in Alabama, so you’d still be a hetero there.

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 6:32 PM

This is another issue that will brand us as dead wood in a new forest.

Wake up people. Foster homes are f*cked. Gay parents are still loving parents. I am guessing that many of my conservatives peers were raised by gay parents.

I don’t care whom you’re you ****ing as long as it’s not the kids. Do we take away adopted kids from parents who divorce? Do we disallow single parents from adopting? The lady humping in the handicapped stall was married and heterosexual. Is she a better role model than your average homosexual?

I don’t know. But gay adoption is likely a states’ rights issue. Arguing otherwise pretty much nullifies any chance or repealing abortion based on similar grounds.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:32 PM

Bingo! There’s a lot of generalization going on here, because these are the loudest and most visible gay people.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:21 PM

They are called ‘descriptions in the aggregate’ and represent the only reasonable way to address issues of groups and likely behavior of an arbitrary people in that group. How could one address issues relating to a group, which is exactly what we are talking about with “gay adoption”, without aggregate descriptions?

If you think that gay male sexual behavior is different, in the aggregate, then that is one thing, but to complain about ‘generalization’ when it is a group under discussion is kind of silly.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:32 PM

Believe it or not, there are plenty of gays who outside of their sexuality are perfectly indistinguishable from everyone else you know. They’re doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the occasional clergyman.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM

The same can be said for serial killers.

My collie says:

So what exactly is your point?

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

I’m upset that kids I’ll never meet are being raised by people I don’t know whose lifestyle I don’t approve of!

That sounds stupid doesn’t it? That’s your argument if you are against gay adoption.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

As much as I don’t think gays should be allowed to have a state-sanctioned marriage, for reasons of principle, I am even more opposed to them adopting children for reasons of child abuse. No child raised by gays will grow up psychologically normal. Better single parent that two gays. For a child to see two men sitting on a couch, cuddling and holding hands, and for that child to say that these are my parents, would do a number on the mind of anyone. Even children can sense what is natural and what is unnatural. From there on, there is no telling how the child will develop mentally and emotionally. It could be a train wreck.

This does not even begin to address the fact that homosexuals are far more likely to exhibit abnormal social and sexual behavioral traits than the general population. Not exactly the demographic orphans need to be subjected to. Being an orphan is bad enough to screw with someone’s sense of self esteem. But to be forcibly assigned homosexuals as parents, is beyond the pale.
Not to mention that gay adoptive parents will indoctrinate their children to vote liberal.

keep the change on December 1, 2008 at 6:34 PM

So, I’m just curious – should heterosexual couples who are swingers or otherwise polyamorous be allowed to adopt? What about heterosexual couples who smoke a little pot on the weekends? Heterosexual couples who screwed half their high school and college classmates before they were married? Heterosexual couples that get a little drunk and smack the kids around?

Just curious.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:34 PM

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

I did read everything you said. And saying that only hetro sexuals are the “bestest” is ignorant and niave is all ways.

Besides… other people read this blog.. and if you think it was towards you… then your ego is bigger then I thought.

Have a great one.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM

It,s not that the GOP or just consev. should oppose gay adoptions.People of all partys both Libs & consev. should.Young children need a lot of help growing up and this added burden along with being adopted in the frist place is not helpful.

thmcbb on December 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Two mothers do not make up for a lack of a father and likewise two fathers do not make up for the lack of a mother.

Not to mention that you will have two of the same gender but each taking an opposite role. If that won’t screw up a kid I don’t know what will.

Anyone who thinks a child is automatically better off with a foster home than a well to do gay couple is sick.

I disagree. I think giving an impressionable child to people with gender identification disorders is far far sicker. But this isn’t about what is best for the child, is it? This is about Gays trying desperately to legitimatize their lifestyle. The child be damned, give the Gays babies because otherwise it’s not fair.

It comes down to this. Being a convicted felon or even a sex offender does not automatically disqualify from adopting.

It doesn’t? If not it should.

If you feel gays should be automatically disqualified, the only reasoning must be that you think them to be pedophiles and perverts by default. That’s a bigoted position to take

No, that’s called being responsible and realistic.

Guardian on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Heaven help me, but I can’t help but think of al the good Rosie O’Donnell *shudder* has done for children in need. There are many good people who are in committed, loving relationships that would make great parents, and they just happen to be gay.

My biggest concern stems from my own sexism (not homophobia). I tend to be a bit skeptical of any men around children (too much Oprah).

Statistically, pedophiles tend to be men, not women, so when I see two men looking for a child I wonder about the screening process, especially when there are so many well organized networks of these child predators. It would be easy for peophiles to pose as gay couples for the purpose of preying on children. The protected status of gays could work to discourage social workers from prying too hard or seeming too sceptical.

Again, I am sexist not homophobic, and I realize that most men are normal and don’t …uh “roll that way”.

Let the attacks begin.

Laura in Maryland on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

So, I’m just curious – should heterosexual couples who are swingers or otherwise polyamorous be allowed to adopt? What about heterosexual couples who smoke a little pot on the weekends? Heterosexual couples who screwed half their high school and college classmates before they were married? Heterosexual couples that get a little drunk and smack the kids around?

Just curious.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:34 PM

Bearing in mind that I don’t think the GOP should make this a part of their national platform, your argument is a weak straw-man. All prospective adopters are investigated before being allowed to adopt kids so things like the above would come out and preclude them from adopting.

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

I think it’s easier for us in the bluer states to get this because the gay people are more open about it – we know who they are and they’re mostly pretty normal (and in many cases nicer than normal) people. There are assholes and angels in every demographic, and the gay community tends to be fairly polarized in this area. I know gay people that would be far more loving and caring parents than some heterosexual people I know (and the other way around).

I’ve known a number of very stable monogamous lesbian couples. I have yet to meet a stable monogamous gay male couple. They don’t exist. Gay men will stay together by having an “open relationship” which is hardly stable or monogamous. The lavender mafia has done a great job of whitewashing this fact. Scratch the surface of the “respectable” gay male couple and you’ll see a whole lot of bath houses and cruising for partners. It’s what the lifestyle is all about.

I don’t have a problem with lesbians adopting kids, but I do have reservations about gay men adopting kids. But my opinion probably doesn’t matter. It seems as gay adoption will happen regardless of anyone’s opinion.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

The same can be said for serial killers.

My collie says:

So what exactly is your point?

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

And who would these serial killers be? Let’s see…. Charles Manson? Nope. Ted Kaczynski? Nope. Herbert Mullin? Nope. They were, however, all heterosexual. I can’t possibly fathom what your point is.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Every child that has EVER been born (with the singular exception of Jesus Christ), is the offspring of a man (XY chromosome) and a woman (XX chromosome). I need NO other reason than that to INSIST that ALL children should be raised by a man that is married to a woman. It is the natural order of things.

My collie says:

I gays want offspring, maybe they should clone themselves.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Bearing in mind that I don’t think the GOP should make this a part of their national platform, your argument is a weak straw-man. All prospective adopters are investigated before being allowed to adopt kids so things like the above would come out and preclude them from adopting.

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Absolute crap. In most cases, none of the above would show up on screening.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

If only married couples should be allowed to adopt, then only married couples should be allowed to keep their children. Lest we are legislating unequal treatment for the two groups of kids.

You people saying that being gay automatically discredits one as a parent are amazing. What moral failings do you folks hide? Any gamblers? Any drinkers? What about adulterers? Traffic violators? Nose pickers?

What a joke. You may as well give away the next congressional and presidential elections. Here…diagonally.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

They were, however, all heterosexual. I can’t possibly fathom what your point is.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

My collie says:

Ever hear of John Wayne Gacy?

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

You don’t have to be straight to be in the military, you just have to be able to shoot straight.
- Barry Goldwater

You don’t have to be straight to adopt, you just have to be able to parent straight [updated].
- Barry Goldwater

MB4 on December 1, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Has anyone ever adopted or fostered a child on this blog?

Why not give what paperwork and walk through via State Criminal and/or FBI background checks you have to do Foster or if you want to adopt.

Each State is different except for a few laws … if you are convicted of a Felony, you are unable to adopt a child. And in some cases if you have a misdemeaner (sexual offenses) you are disqualified from fostering and adoption. That is a Federal law.

Sorry everyone… but those who don’t know about Fostering or Adoption can look it up.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Besides… other people read this blog.. and if you think it was towards you… then your ego is bigger then I thought.

Have a great one.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM

You quoted my post, hence the response.

You have a habit of flying off the handle and have attacked me on several other threads, always without provocation.

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:40 PM

I’m upset that kids I’ll never meet are being raised by people I don’t know whose lifestyle I don’t approve of!

That sounds stupid doesn’t it? That’s your argument if you are against gay adoption.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Money.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:40 PM

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

You still seem to be having major problems understanding the differences between group descriptions and individual anecdotes. Or, maybe that’s just your preferred debating tactic?

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:41 PM

You people saying that being gay automatically discredits one as a parent are amazing. What moral failings do you folks hide? Any gamblers? Any drinkers? What about adulterers? Traffic violators? Nose pickers?

What a joke. You may as well give away the next congressional and presidential elections. Here…diagonally.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Gambling, drinking and adultery problems, if admitted in an adoption screening, would most likely get you kicked out of the program, I bet.

TexasDan on December 1, 2008 at 6:41 PM

Absolute crap. In most cases, none of the above would show up on screening.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Oh, wow. What a persuasive argument. I stand corrected.

/sarc

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Foster care is fucked.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Floating Rock:
Gay people have children all the time, just not with each other.
Terrye on December 1, 2008 at 6:04 PM

That’s not the greatest endorsement.

Buy Danish on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Every child that has EVER been born (with the singular exception of Jesus Christ), is the offspring of a man (XY chromosome) and a woman (XX chromosome). I need NO other reason than that to INSIST that ALL children should be raised by a man that is married to a woman. It is the natural order of things.

My collie says:

I gays want offspring, maybe they should clone themselves.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Hey, you’re the one who I’m assuming is a “good, upstanding Christan heterosexual” who goes around comparing gay people to serial killers. I’m assuming your putting words in your collie’s mouth – I’ve never met a bigoted dog.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Heaven help me, but I can’t help but think of al the good Rosie O’Donnell *shudder* has done for children in need…
Laura in Maryland on December 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Rosie O’Donnell’s own words:

In a 1997 Ladies Home Journal article, Rosie recounted the anguish of having to experience a teen-age girl’s girl-to-woman rituals without the guiding love of a mother. “It was traumatic,” Rosie recalled somberly. “When a girl gets her period and her mom is not there to comfort her, it’s incredibly painful.” To fill the void, Rosie said she relied on and identified with television shows featuring stable families like “Eight is Enough” and “The Brady Bunch.” Reflecting on her own father’s emotional absence, she lamented she had difficulty connecting with men. “I have a lot of issues to work out about men.” She continued, “I think that (adoption of her son, Parker) helps me to connect in a way that I wasn’t able to before. I am so in love with this child, who is a male and his own person.” The absence of her mother and father left deep scars in Rosie’s life.

We know how Rosie dealt with her own sexuality when she grew to adulthood.

sinsing on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

I want to add something else, since I didn’t think about it before. As far as I’m aware, I’m the only one posting here that actually has experience being raised by gays. Seventeen years (I joined the Navy at 17), to be exact. And while I’m not perfect, I turned out to be a pretty decent person. I’ve served in the military, as did my mother before me. I’m married. I’m a conservative, just not 100% completely on social issues. Yes, I’ve seen Rocky Horror and I’ve been to a drag queen show, as an adult. My mom did drag me to a Kate Clinton concert once, but that was the extent of my “indoctrination.”

While I did not have a father in the home, I had plenty of male role models in my life. My grandfather was the man I looked to when I thought about the model husband – and I even named my first son after him. He’s still a powerful figure in my life. I looked to teachers, friends of my parents, parents of my friends, for any male role modelling that was needed. In addition, I had my mom’s straight best friend to look to for those issues I couldn’t turn to my mom to (dating), and there were several other influential adults in my life, especially when I was older.

A child growing up with gay parents will not grow up in a bubble. They will have just as many positive and negative influences in their lives as any other child, and how many of each depends on more factors than the parents’ sexuality. And yes, barring unforeseen disasters, these kids can and will grow up to be productive members of society – some of them may even turn out to be as conservative as their parents are liberal!

The GOP has bigger concerns right now, other than gay adoption or even gay marriage. Let’s instead work on that whole concept of ‘limited government’ or ‘fiscal responsibility.’

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Your focus is ENTIRELY on the adopters, and COMPLETELY glossess over, dismisses, and ignores the rights of the adoptee.

My collie says:

We have an obligation to them to provide the healthiest environment possible for them — and THAT environment is a traditional family environment.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

Every child that has EVER been born (with the singular exception of Jesus Christ), is the offspring of a man (XY chromosome) and a woman (XX chromosome). I need NO other reason than that to INSIST that ALL children should be raised by a man that is married to a woman. It is the natural order of things.

That’s not really the argument that is being made. The argument is which is worse: being raised by a loving gay couple who can a provide a child with attention, a room of their own, and guidance, or being raised in a group home by people who are just there because they are getting paid, in room with a bunch of other kids who have nowhere to go.

The actual “natural order of things” is to be raised by your biological parents. Does this mean we should rule out adoption entirely?

justfinethanks on December 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

I’m upset that kids I’ll never meet are being raised by people I don’t know whose lifestyle I don’t approve of!

That sounds stupid doesn’t it? That’s your argument if you are against gay adoption.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Pretty much.

doubleplusundead on December 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

Oh, wow. What a persuasive argument. I stand corrected.

/sarc

Y-not on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Well, it’s true. I know people with high-level security clearances who do these things, and they’ve gone through background checks far more thorough than adoptive parents get.

Seriously, the obsession certain Republicans have with gays is about as stupid as the obsession certain liberals have with Jews. They’re just people, and most of them are pretty normal. Get over it.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:46 PM

The GOP has bigger concerns right now, other than gay adoption or even gay marriage. Let’s instead work on that whole concept of ‘limited government’ or ‘fiscal responsibility.’

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Amen.

doubleplusundead on December 1, 2008 at 6:47 PM

So, I’m just curious – should heterosexual couples who are swingers or otherwise polyamorous be allowed to adopt? What about heterosexual couples who smoke a little pot on the weekends? Heterosexual couples who screwed half their high school and college classmates before they were married? Heterosexual couples that get a little drunk and smack the kids around?

Just curious.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:34 PM

No, they shouldn’t be allowed to adopt kids either. If you knew anything about the adoption process, you’d know that agencies do their best to screen out people who exhibit such behavior. It’s not always successful, but they at least try to do so because they recognize that the behavior you listed is not good for children.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 6:48 PM

Gambling, drinking and adultery problems, if admitted in an adoption screening, would most likely get you kicked out of the program, I bet.

TexasDan on December 1, 2008 at 6:41 PM

What about divorce? If you can’t keep together one family why should you get to start another…with kids?

Where does it stop? If gays in union are not allowed to adopt, then divorced or single heterosexuals should be equally disallowed.

I’ll repeat this:
Foster care is fucked. Living in a teepee eating sardines is better if the ones you’re with claim you as their own.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 6:48 PM

I’m upset that kids I’ll never meet are being raised by people I don’t know whose lifestyle I don’t approve of!

That sounds stupid doesn’t it? That’s your argument if you are against gay adoption.

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Come on, lorien. You can make that same statement about any position that affects people we don’t know personally – which includes just about every bit of policy.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:49 PM

The GOP has bigger concerns right now, other than gay adoption or even gay marriage. Let’s instead work on that whole concept of ‘limited government’ or ‘fiscal responsibility.’

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Two thumbs up. Very interesting post, too.

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 6:49 PM

We’ve had the kids, boy and girl, of a lesbian couple here for birthday parties for my small child. The boy is about 5, and always finds me and wants a tour of my shop. He’s hanging on my every word, and grabs my hand the whole time, and is by my side the whole time he’s here. It makes me sad to think he’s being raised without a dad.

I suppose that sort of thing goes on every day in divorced families, but gay adoption saddles these children with a burden from the start. By burden, I mean lack of opposite-sex role models.
I can only imagine the harrassment they go through in school, also. My public school experience would not favor a kid with gay parents, to put it mildly.

hippie_chucker on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Anna,

One other thing: are your parents conservative, and if not how did you end up conservative?

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Hey, you’re the one who I’m assuming is a “good, upstanding Christan heterosexual” who goes around comparing gay people to serial killers. I’m assuming your putting words in your collie’s mouth – I’ve never met a bigoted dog.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

You sir are a despicable liar. I never compared gays to serial killers. I was merely pointing out that your criteria is insufficient. Many people “fit-into” in a crowd and are indistinguishable in a group of doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the occasional clergyman (as you put it). Just because a random person in a crowd does not reveal his inner soul when he/she is standing in a crowd of people (and he/she therefore appears to be no different from anyone else) it does not mean that he/she is fit to be a parent.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Great story but it brings up the difference between Gay females and Gay Males. I would be far more open to two lesbians adopting a baby boy than two Gay dudes.

Just out of curiosity how did you deal with the inevitable question as to who you called “Mom”? Did you have Mom A and Mom B? If you fell down as a child and screamed “Mommy” who were you referring to?

Guardian on December 1, 2008 at 6:52 PM

Your focus is ENTIRELY on the adopters, and COMPLETELY glossess over, dismisses, and ignores the rights of the adoptee.

My collie says:

We have an obligation to them to provide the healthiest environment possible for them — and THAT environment is a traditional family environment.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

Oh come on, I grew up in the midwest and even there life’s not a Normal Rockwell painting. Plenty of heterosexual families are screwed up beyond belief. I’d go so far as to say most are, and that on average homosexuals are no worse.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

I think there are good and rational reasons to abhor this idea. Homosexuality, like its more dangerous cousin (paedophilia), is an anti-reproductive maladaption. People who suffer this disease are not themselves bad or evil — but they are certainly not the ideal guardians for developing human beings.

Prufrock on December 1, 2008 at 6:20 PM

This reason is neither good nor rational. What about infertile heterosexual men and women? Should their “anti-reproductive maladaption” preclude them from adopting as well?

vermillionsky on December 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

I can only imagine the harrassment they go through in school, also. My public school experience would not favor a kid with gay parents, to put it mildly.

hippie_chucker on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

That is a very valid concern. I’ve been there, dealt with that, and to be honest, I have no solution. Although, bullies will pick on other children for a multitude of reasons. Parents, gay and straight, should be pro-active about bullies.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:54 PM

You, who oppose gay adoptions, I want you to go to a foster kid and say “no, you can’t have a permanent home because they have a lifestyle I don’t approve of. Here, go live with this random person for a year, then another random person for a year…till you are 18, instead. I find that more acceptable.”

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Gambling, drinking and adultery problems, if admitted in an adoption screening, would most likely get you kicked out of the program, I bet.

TexasDan on December 1, 2008 at 6:41 PM

It would. Absolutely. They do serious background screening of people who want to adopt or take in foster kids.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 6:55 PM

Anna,

One other thing: are your parents conservative, and if not how did you end up conservative?

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

My mom is a Clintonista, hard-core. Me, I became more conservative in the military, and especially after I met my husband. In high school, I was very socially liberal, but looking back, more libertarian than anything.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:56 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:56 PM

Thanks.

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 6:59 PM

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:49 PM

I’m willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt when wanting to adopt a child. I don’t give a crap where there hoo-hoo’s and ha-ha’s go or what they do with them. If the kid is in a healthy home, off the state dole, and not bouncing around from family to family for 18 years, I’m willing to give someone the shot at raising them.

If you oppose gay adoption, I want you to imagine a life where you are 18 and never once had a home that you lived in for more than a year, no one who ever loved you or cared for you. And then imagine how your life is going to turn out from that point forward.

Think that life is going to be a happy one? Seriously?

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Thank you for sharing your story. As I noted in an earlier post, I have no problem with lesbians adopting kids. I’ve known a number of them who are or would be excellent parents.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

I’m all for taking this approach: let every state A la California with prop 8 tackle this individually.

Nothing in the Federal constitution gives the Federal Government the right to exercise powers on this.

Therefore, the States have the authority on such matters.

If only that were true.

Chaz706 on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

And who would these serial killers be? Let’s see…. Charles Manson? Nope. Ted Kaczynski? Nope. Herbert Mullin? Nope. They were, however, all heterosexual. I can’t possibly fathom what your point is.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Try Jeffrey Dahmer:

Although the proportion of serial killers who are known to have had homosexual experience is high (over 43%), the total number of serial killers is too small to make statistically relevant statements about whether homosexuals are over- or under-represented among serial killers.

I’m not so sure. If you sample 100% of all serial killers, and you find that 43% are homosexual or abused by homosexuals, while the incidence of homosexuals “in the wild” is far less than 43% (liberally approximated at 10%), that indicates to me a high correlation. One could turn the whole argument on its ear by saying that 57% of all serial killers are hetero, but hetero’s occupy a far larger percentage of the population (conservatively, 90%), so the correlation is negative (of course — it’s the dual of the previous calculation). But then my degrees are only in mathematics and Latin, not in psychology where things are far more subjective.

unclesmrgol on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Just out of curiosity how did you deal with the inevitable question as to who you called “Mom”? Did you have Mom A and Mom B? If you fell down as a child and screamed “Mommy” who were you referring to?

Guardian on December 1, 2008 at 6:52 PM

Mom and Mommy, Mommy being my actual mother. It’s a term I called her until I became a mother of my own. When they split, Mom became Gail (but we’re still fairly close. She even got visitation for years, voluntary by my mom). With my mother’s long-term relationship, the woman and I did not get along, and I tried not to call her anything at all. When referring to them, yes, I called them my parents. Or my mom and her roommate. It was variable, depending on audience and my age.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Oh come on, I grew up in the midwest and even there life’s not a Normal Rockwell painting. Plenty of heterosexual families are screwed up beyond belief. I’d go so far as to say most are, and that on average homosexuals are no worse.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

And I never said they were worse. You completely missed my point. The fact that the vast majority of people in society at large are screwed up in one way or another says NOTHING about what the rights of the adoptee are, nor does it says ANYTHING about who is fit to adopt children.

My collie says:

Once again, what’s your point?

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Ed,
Have you seen Zombietime’s sequence of pictures taken in San Francisco at one of the gay festivals? If not, you should go to the zombietime site and peruse the pictures.

then come back and tell me you think these people should be able to adopt children.

I’ll wait. Let me know when you’ve looked at every picture and we can discuss further.

Here is the link.

pabarge on December 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

BTW, Ed, the raw meat photo would have been a more appropriate photo for this thread.

My collie says:

I predict an 800 comment over-under.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 7:04 PM

I hate that there are so many misconceptions about gay parents and gays in general. Yes, we all know about the Folsom Street Fair, because that’s something that turns heads (and stomachs). You’d never hear about the quiet families in Middle America, because it’s boring. If it bleeds, it leads, right? There is so much more, and it’s plain, quiet, and boring, when you get right down to it.

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Some excellent points have been made above. This is one of them:

Why does the left succeed in putting these questions into a “rights” context? There is no right to adopt the children of others, the sole role of law in this matter is assessing the best interests of the child. The legislature is the institution empowered to set preferences for raising children and is entirely within its discretion to prefer stable homes of a man and woman dedicated to each other in marriage when setting permanent adoption policy.

When you turn the question into a rights controversy it ends up like abortion. The needs of the child are snuffed out to serve the agenda of activists.

Mark30339 on December 1, 2008 at 5:53 PM

Dawn Stefanowicz, is a woman who recently wrote a book titled: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. She has some horrific stories to tell about what she was exposed to as a child.

My emphasis in the quote below:

From a young age, I was exposed to explicit sexual speech, self-indulgent lifestyles, varied GLBT subcultures and gay vacation spots. Sex looked gratuitous to me as a child. I was exposed to all-inclusive manifestations of sexuality including bathhouse sex, cross-dressing, sodomy, pornography, gay nudity, lesbianism, bisexuality, minor recruitment, voyeurism and exhibitionism.

Sado-masochism was alluded to and aspects demonstrated. Alcohol and drugs were often contributing factors to lower inhibitions in my father’s relationships.

My father prized unisex dressing, gender-neutral aspects and a famous cross-dressing icon when I was eight years old. I did not see the value of biological complementing differences of male and female or think about marriage. I made vows to never have children since I had not grown up in a safe, sacrificial, child-centered home environment. Due to my life experience, I ask, “Can children really perform their best academically, financially, psychologically, socially and behaviorally in experimental situations?” I can tell you that I suffered long term in this situation and this has been professionally documented.

Earlier in the article she stated:

Are my childhood experiences unique? According to a growing number of personal testimonies, experts, and organizations, there is mounting evidence of strong commonalities to my personal experiences. [footnotes] 2-13 Not only do children do best with both a mother and a father in a lifelong marriage bond, [footnotes] 14,15 children need responsible monogamous parents who have no extramarital sexual partners. Parental promiscuity, abuse and divorce are not good for children.

INC on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

You sir are a despicable liar. I never compared gays to serial killers. I was merely pointing out that your criteria is insufficient. Many people “fit-into” in a crowd and are indistinguishable in a group of doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the occasional clergyman (as you put it). Just because a random person in a crowd does not reveal his inner soul when he/she is standing in a crowd of people (and he/she therefore appears to be no different from anyone else) it does not mean that he/she is fit to be a parent.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 6:51 PM

No, you said that if gays adopt it’s going to be a childfest at pride week. I was saying that most gays are pretty normal people who do different things with their private parts than you or I do. You had to throw in a snarky serial-killer bit – which, by the way, is untrue – most serial killers are very poorly socialized (and white, male, heterosexuals – albeit single). Your thesis that a “traditional family environment” is superior has no basis other than that it’s traditional. I can think of lots of counterexamples. The worst is one my friends from high school who was adopted by a heterosexual couple (religious, well-off, pillars of the community – to the point where there’s a local street named after one of them – and all that) and their bad parenting screwed him up beyond belief – he’s doing life in prison now. Now it’s not that they were heterosexual or religious or any of those things that were the problem, but they most certainly were not the solution (QED). The point is that there are plenty of good and bad parents, and of all of the criteria you could choose sexuality isn’t at the top of the list. The ability to give love and attention should be.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

I’d go so far as to say most are, and that on average homosexuals are no worse.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

Ha. You don’t have many gay friends, do you? Come visit West Hollywood for a while.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

We know how Rosie dealt with her own sexuality when she grew to adulthood.

sinsing on December 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

That isn’t fair. Rosie’s mother died from cancer when Rosie was ten. That experience will have quite a different impact on a child’s psyche than being taken from an orphanage or foster care to be raised by a single parent or by a pair of moms or dads.

vermillionsky on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

lorien1973 on December 1, 2008 at 7:00 PM

I’m not saying that there aren’t good arguments for those who support gay adoption (though I personally oppose it very strongly). I was just saying that your argument about some of us wanting to control the lives of those we don’t know isn’t a good one, as all law does that.

In the end, adoption is a state decision, so I’m not even sure why anyone would feel a need for the GOP to take a national position on this – unless it became a cross-state problem as gay marriage is sure to become. In my state, though, I would vote against gay adoption, if it came up.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 7:06 PM

Parental promiscuity, abuse and divorce are not good for children.

INC on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Well, then since most heterosexual marriages end in divorce, maybe we shouldn’t let them adopt.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 7:06 PM

It would. Absolutely. They do serious background screening of people who want to adopt or take in foster kids.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 6:55 PM

Becoming a foster parent is a notoriously easy way for otherwise unaccomplished, uninspired, broke loser to get a paycheck. There are many great foster homes. But there are a tragically high number of dung heaps being paid to ruin kids lives.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 7:07 PM

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Anna, not many can know your history or anyone else more then the people (you) who have lived it.

You and I (the younger generation on here I will say) are unique because we were brought up in a different environment and yet we are both conservative to a fault and very much proactive.

The worls isn’t going to stop rotating. The world isn’t going to stop getting warmer or cooler. And the world isn’t going to stop for humans.

I, like you, do not care about color, religon, sexual preferance, because that isn’t just how we were raised. But we decided that it wasn’t something to worry over or impact our lives, loves, Family or Friends.

I honestly do not care if a gay couple adopt. It isn’t any worse then someone who was married for years decided that it was time to come clean and be openly gay, even though they have children. No matter what that won’t make people happy… as people do not like change.

I think you are correct on the GOP. But how many others agree?

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:07 PM

Ha. You don’t have many gay friends, do you? Come visit West Hollywood for a while.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Ummm… I’d say that West Hollywood (and the Castro District, etc.) are at the far end of a behavioral curve. Kind of like judging straight people by what happens at Sturgis, lake Havasu, and Hedonism. If we want to play that game, we can probably find enough examples to make adoption illegal for the entire human race.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 7:08 PM

yup, just what the GOP needs, more demonization of gays. that’ll really endear it to the more secular, open-minded Millenials who hate Bush with a passion.

Noneya on December 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM

The GOP has bigger concerns right now, other than gay adoption or even gay marriage. Let’s instead work on that whole concept of ‘limited government’ or ‘fiscal responsibility.’

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

*Applause*

RightOFLeft on December 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM

No child raised by gays will grow up psychologically normal.

Wow. That’s a big generalization there, isn’t it? NO child? Hmmm. I know of several. Psychologically normal, probably better adjusted than many kids raised by straight people.

uncivilized on December 1, 2008 at 7:11 PM

Ha. You don’t have many gay friends, do you? Come visit West Hollywood for a while.

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Gay people are worse than heterosexuals? Really?

You may have gay sex partners or neighbors…but not friends. How’s the echo in that closet big guy?

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 7:11 PM

Ummm… I’d say that West Hollywood (and the Castro District, etc.) are at the far end of a behavioral curve. Kind of like judging straight people by what happens at Sturgis, lake Havasu, and Hedonism.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 7:08 PM

How about putting some numbers in there? Again, you like to equate 30% of one thing with .5% of something else and call it all the same in terms of group behavior. That doesn’t work.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 7:12 PM

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:07 PM

True. And a lot has changed since I was a child – I was a rarity back then. Now, not so much so.

I just think that social issues such as these are a drain on resources. We keep letting the government grow bigger and keep putting the same old tired crooks in office, and then we waste our time fighting teh gheys. This will still be around in a decade if we let it go; I’m more worried that the economy and our system of government will be beyond repair if we let it go any longer. I will support the GOP with all I can to fight bloated beauracracy, but I will back off if we keep our main focus on gay marriage/adoption.

So what is more important? Social or fiscal conservatism?

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 7:14 PM

I have gay male friends who tell me stories of screwing 5 or 10 guys in a night of clubbing and regularly pick up strangers in bathrooms and other public places. They tell stories of sex lives that not even the biggest straight casanova I’ve known has come close to. But, that’s the difference between a testosterone-testosterone sexual relationship and a testosterone-estrogen one.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 6:19 PM

1) No – you don’t have gay male friends. Quit fibbing.

2) If you actually believe any guy – gay or straight – who claims to do it 10 times in a single night, I have a shiny new bridge to sell you.

Professor Blather on December 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM

Professor Blather on December 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM

If you say so.

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM

keep the change on December 1, 2008 at 6:34 PM

You actually consider their future political affiliations in your reasoning. You’re pathetic.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 7:16 PM

I suppose if the gay couple is stable, and has been together for years, I’m reluctantly supporting gay adoption. It’s got to be better than a foster home.

I’m in no way in favor of Folsom St. types getting kids to adopt, though. But how you going to ask gays about Folsom St (if you’re a case worker) without it bringing an ACLU sht. storm? That to me is the question that gays don’t want asked, because it implies that there is something wrong with being too gay…

hippie_chucker on December 1, 2008 at 7:18 PM

Have you seen Zombietime’s sequence of pictures taken in San Francisco at one of the gay festivals? If not, you should go to the zombietime site and peruse the pictures.

then come back and tell me you think these people should be able to adopt children.

pabarge on December 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

That is a specious argument.

The creeps at the Folsom Fair aren’t the ones wanting to adopt children any more than the bunnies at the Playboy Mansion or the prostitutes at the Mustang Ranch.

Lehosh on December 1, 2008 at 7:18 PM

2) If you actually believe any guy – gay or straight – who claims to do it 10 times in a single night, I have a shiny new bridge to sell you.

Professor Blather on December 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM

Need I remind you that sex has two sides, which the Greeks used to describe as the male and female roles, with males able to take either role?

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM

So what is more important? Social or fiscal conservatism?

Anna on December 1, 2008 at 7:14 PM

Honestly fiscal for me. But then times are a changing, as you and I both have noted.

But as for adoption. If gay people want to adopt … fine with me. I have had a few friends (in our age) that were brought up via gay parents. They are better adjusted then I am. And in many cases have a better self awareness concernign the world. AND most of them are conservative. They just do not say much concerning this issue since it bothers more people then at first glance. Did I mention everyone of them happens to be straight as well.

Weird world we live in. Makes no sense if someone (who is of sound mind) wants to raise a child and yet not allowed too. Way back when, there were people who use to take kids and give them a “home” so to speak… while working on the family farm, and yet these kids weren’t abused, given food, clothes and enough love or pushed to do better with themselves. Of course this was back in the civil war to WWII, but no one wants to talk about that.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

Gay people are worse than heterosexuals? Really?

You may have gay sex partners or neighbors…but not friends. How’s the echo in that closet big guy?

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 7:11 PM

They’re not worse as people, but their relationships are waaaay crazier than heterosexual relationships. Again, I’m speaking of gay men, not lesbians. The only gay male couples who are able to successfully stay together for any length of time do so by agreeing to an “open relationship”. And even that becomes bitter after a time because one partner is cruising constantly and the other is angry about it. It’s non-stop drama.

I love my gay friends, but they know that I think their lifestyles are nuts. See, it’s possible to disagree with your friends on fundamental issues and still love them.

And for the record, I’m a she, big guy. ;)

ramrocks on December 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:07 PM

You’re conservative? I never hear you loudly voice conservative opinions at HA!

; – )

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

On a semi-serious note, the fundamental problem with this debate is that conservatives have forgotten the reason they support traditionalism.

They see the trees but miss the forest. Sure, they remember to prattle on endlessly about gays and the media and abortion and sex on television … but somewhere along the line, they forgot why they do it.

Here’s a clue: the foundation of social conservatism is both strong and fundamentally correct. Traditionalism is embraced not because it is right or because somebody’s God tells you to act that way … but because it WORKS.

Basic civil values, the core family unit, holding onto foundational principles, respecting tradition … we don’t do these things for no reason. We do them because they WORK as building blocks of society.

But too many conservatives forget this … so they join together as equally evil things like rampant drug use and mindless promiscuity (bad) with homosexual marriage or gays wanting to start families (bad?).

It’s the ultimate irony. On any logical basis, a stable, solid, committed, monogamous gay relationship is infinitely better than a string of broken, abusive heterosexual relationships.

Yet it is gays wanting to marry – in other words, gays wanting to embrace the core of social conservatism – that conservatives get upset about.

We have countless single heterosexual mothers and deadbeat heterosexual fathers and cracked-up burned-out waste-case parents abusing their kids (but all perfectly heterosexual!) …. and somehow we think its conservative to keep children needing parents in institutions (or in the hell of foster care) rather than let them be adopted by gay couples?

It’s madness. It’s ironically an assault on conservatism.

Someday we’ll remember the reason for social conservatism. Until then, we’ll continue to waste time on meaningless, counter-productive arguments, and continue to harm the very social values we pretend to uphold.

And as an unfortunate consequence, we’ll keep losing elections, too.

Professor Blather on December 1, 2008 at 7:23 PM

most serial killers are very poorly socialized… The ability to give love and attention should be.

ErikTheRed on December 1, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Gary Ridgway worked across the street from me for more than a decade. I probably walked passed him in the parking lot literally dozens of times. No one seriously suspected that he was the Green River Killer. Ted Bundy was a paper boy in Tacoma. They both “blended in” very well here in the Northwest for a very long time. How do you explain the difficulty that law enforcement had in catching them?

My collie says:

As for love, are you per chance referring to all the love and tolerance that al-Gayda is showing to Mormons, Catholics, and Evangelicals in California when they threaten to burn their churches? Why don’t they take their love into Watts? After all, it’s already been burned down at least once before.

Currents events aside, the statistical data that I’ve seen suggests that gays are more prone to commit murder, suicide, and/or violence against their “loved ones” than some other segments of society (although I’m not certain what the statistics are for Mormons, Catholics, or Evangelicals). I think adoptees deserve the best odds that we can give them.

CyberCipher on December 1, 2008 at 7:23 PM

I was told by several Republican “soccer moms” from the Pittsburgh suburbs that they voted against Rick Santorum, because of the viciousness of his anti-gay rhetoric.

thuja on December 1, 2008 at 6:16 PM

I’m not a soccer mom, but I’m young, live in the Pittsburgh suburbs, and voted against Rick Santorum for this reason.

I want politicians at the national level to stay out of people’s personal lives and focus on smaller government and lower taxes. I guess I’m more libertarian than republican, though.

vermillionsky on December 1, 2008 at 7:23 PM

BadgerHawk on December 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

NEVA!

You wanna spanking?

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 7:23 PM

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