Quote of the day

posted at 10:30 pm on December 1, 2008 by Allahpundit

“Someone close to me in our family has a learning disability, which has been a handicap and a sorrow to her, and my lifelong experience of children and adults with learning disabilities, including many with Down’s, as they have grown older has given me a different perspective. I am convinced that it is a grave misfortune for babies to be born with Down’s or any comparably serious syndrome. It’s a misfortune for their parents and their siblings as well. Sad observations over decades have convinced me: a damaged baby is a damaged family, even now…

There are some strange contradictions surrounding the question of abortion. People who reject abortion as always wrong are consistent and one cannot argue with them. But anyone who thinks abortion is acceptable under some circumstances, and who yet disapproves of what’s emotionally seen as ‘eugenic’ abortion, is in an untenable position. After all, people accept abortion for certain ‘social reasons’, and what more powerful ‘social reason’ could there be for an abortion than the virtual certainty that the foetus would be condemned to a life of frustration, disappointment, dependence, serious illness and poverty, to the great sorrow and hardship of its family?”

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Again, as a gay dude, this is why I don’t support abortion. As soon as science is able to determine a baby in the womb will be gay, I’m sure many will be aborted. On a related note, I have one leg sligly (sic) shorter than the other. Should I have been aborted?

SouthernGent on December 2, 2008 at 12:12 AM

Yup. In some places (such as India and China) where a high value is placed upon males and a low one upon females, the gender imbalance is large.

As for whether you should have been aborted, you know the answer — no.

Interestingly, for genetic diseases, the initial capability we are developing is the ability to diagnose the disease. The second capability (also currently being worked on) is the ability to cure the disease by modifying the genome of the affected individual to inactivate or modify the site originating the disease. Prior to the availability of the curative step, I would expect some people to abort, because they cannot handle the thought that their child will have Down’s Syndrome, Sickle Cell Anemia, or gayness (should that turn out to be classed as a disease). I expect that in a few centuries many genetic diseases will be ancient history, and the few left will be there only because the cure is worse than the disease due to environmental issues.

unclesmrgol on December 2, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Slippery slpope. Once you come to the conclusion that some life is ok to kill than you give tact agreement that all life is at some point ok to kill.

unseen on December 2, 2008 at 12:33 AM

I wonder how she feels about people with AIDS and the pain they cause themselves, their friends and their families.

I wonder if she believes that we should just let them all die.

At least Down Syndrome isn’t contagious.

29Victor on December 2, 2008 at 12:32 AM

Aren’t people with AIDS a threat to the healthy, perfect people?? Like I said earlier, first they come for you, then they come for me. Stand united and we will ALL prevail.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 AM

The more I ponder this the more I think this woman needs serious help. Not kidding.

OT: that’s one ugly ring Michelle Obama is getting, I had no idea that diamonds could look so mingy.

clnurnberg on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 AM

Again, as a gay dude, this is why I don’t support abortion. As soon as science is able to determine a baby in the womb will be gay, I’m sure many will be aborted. On a related note, I have one leg sligly shorter than the other. Should I have been aborted?

SouthernGent on December 2, 2008 at 12:12 AM

First they’ll come for you, then they’ll come for me…..

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 12:14 AM

SouthernGent, My son was born Gay. I love him more then life itself. He is an incredible Man. KCB, If anyone comes to take my son. They will be in a rude awakening. I would give my life for my son. Would be nice to know that Gays would stop being persecuted. Most gays were born gay. But then I argue with know it alls. They say it isn’t. When a mother gives birth. She knows when there is something special. Not all mothers are supportive though. How could they not be? The Fathers at times are also. I don’t understand that. I could never throw my son away.

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 AM

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2007/02/potential-people-life-in-our-hands.html

sharrukin on December 2, 2008 at 12:06 AM

That was an EXCELLENT article. Thanks so much for posting that. I am saving it.

Glynn on December 2, 2008 at 12:22 AM

It struck me as being very well written and caught the… nuances? It’s not an easy subject because at some point it isn’t a human life and at another it clearly is.

sharrukin on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 AM

SouthernGent on December 2, 2008 at 12:12 AM

There is plenty of room in the bunker, Mr SG. Just knock three times on the door and the password is ZERO.

Limerick on December 2, 2008 at 12:40 AM

The more I fume about this twitball’s article, the more I like Eugenics. Let’s start with the compassion challenged, then move on the selfishness enhanced. Then we can knock out the motivationally challenged, morally handicapped, and ethically deprived.

I’m in as long as we can do the South Park retro abortion. Hey Minette, I got a coat hanger with your name on it.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 12:41 AM

One of the most reliable clerks at the market nearby is a Down’s teenager. She is on time, reliable, friendly…and this twit would not have allowed her to be born.

PattyJ on December 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM

I wonder how she feels about people with AIDS and the pain they cause themselves, their friends and their families.

I wonder if she believes that we should just let them all die.

At least Down Syndrome isn’t contagious.

29Victor on December 2, 2008 at 12:32 AM

There are a lot of straight people that have HIV. A lot were from transfusions, and drug use. And un protective sex. The only pain they cause is pain to themselves. Yes, it hurts friends and family. Life is pain. HIV is not a Gay disease. It is a disease. Doesn’t discriminate. Even to the end. And D.S. is not contagious. But you cannot get HIV from kissing on the lips and drinking out of the same cup. Or just hugging a person. It is only when the patient gets open sores, and of course unprotected sex.

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM

I remember the abortion debate…proponents said abortion would NEVER be done to abort handicapped babies, or for sex selection, or after the first trimester…it would ONLY be for emergency cases. And all the people who cried “slippery slope! slippery slope!” were called crazy. Well, we were RIGHT. We’ve come so far we have to pass laws to keep abortionists from killing babies as they are being born, and leaving them to die alone and without pain medication after they are born alive if the abortion is botched.

We have become a barbaric, sick society because the left controls the conversation. We let this happen by being too polite and reserved…and look what has happened.

JustTruth101 on December 2, 2008 at 12:49 AM

I think occasionally, pregnancies happen under horrific circumstances, and there isn’t a law you could put on the books that could take every possible thing into account.

Down’s Syndrome is one thing, anencephaly is quite another. It’s also one thing if there is at least one loving parent on the scene, and any non-loving parents will honorably FTFO once the baby is born. It’s quite another when a woman can’t be a mother for the 9 months it takes for the child to get where she can hand it off to someone else, or would spend the next 18 years being dragged through custody hearings by a fulsome ex every time she blew her nose.

But a child with special needs, as long as someone is there to fight for him or her, and get the care this child needs, can lead a good life. If you’re worried about whether or not someone will be there when you get too old, back in the day people gave that special-needs child enough siblings to be sure that at least one of them will be able to assume any responsibility needed.

If it becomes a choice between hiring a hitman, involuntary transformation into an axolotl tank, a painful, unsurvivable birth defect, or abortion, sad to say, abortion may be preferable. Note: merely having Down’s Syndrome is not a necessary and sufficient condition to justify abortion.

Sekhmet on December 2, 2008 at 12:50 AM

SouthernGent, My son was born Gay. I love him more then life itself. He is an incredible Man. KCB, If anyone comes to take my son. They will be in a rude awakening. I would give my life for my son. Would be nice to know that Gays would stop being persecuted. Most gays were born gay. But then I argue with know it alls. They say it isn’t. When a mother gives birth. She knows when there is something special. Not all mothers are supportive though. How could they not be? The Fathers at times are also. I don’t understand that. I could never throw my son away.

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:37 AM
sheebe,

Wow…I guess you have heard it all. My sister is gay. Don’t know why. Don’t understand it. Don’t really care. It doesn’t define her. There are probably some really bad gay people, but it ain’t cause they’re gay. More than enough bad straight people. My sister is one of the best people on our planet, and that isn’t because she’s gay either. Good folks are good folks. I won’t let anybody mess with her. She’s my sister, and I love her. She probably loves me more, but thay’s a different thread.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 12:50 AM

It’s either murder or it’s not.

Spirit of 1776 on December 1, 2008 at 10:41 PM

Agreed. However, next time someone brings up “so and so is so extreme they oppose abortion even in cases of rape and incest” I’ll say “ok, if it’ll appease you, let’s allow all abortions but only in the cases of rape and incest” since it would eliminate well over 90% of abortions. Of course, they’d go batty at the mere suggestion, but that’s exactly the point. It was never about rape or incest to them, it was always about the choice being there in ALL cases.

The only thing that matters in the debate over abortion is when does life begin. Everything falls into place once that question is answered. If it can’t be answered, then the benefit of the doubt must side with life.

windbag on December 1, 2008 at 10:52 PM

That’s exactly what I always found most abhorrent about Obama’s “above my pay grade” answer – not that he didn’t know, but that the fact that he didn’t know means he should err on the side of, not life, but death. That was very disturbing to me, and remains so.
Outside of the things that would have happened regardless of who was elected (America plunging into socialism, escalating conflicts abroad, etc.) abortion is the thing that scares me most about Obama’s presidency.

Yes, but there is morally defensible ‘murder’ and morally INDEFENSIBLE ‘murder.’

If all ‘murder’ was equal then we could not:
- kill to protect ourselves or our family
- kill to protect freedom
- kill certain types of criminals
- kill animals for their fur or meat

Religious_Zealot on December 1, 2008 at 10:48 PM

I agree with Spirit that murder and killing are not the same thing. But pretending that you had said kill instead of murder, I can respond to your post. I’d like to know how killing babies that by no fault of their own are disabled or the product of an incestuous relationship or rape, falls into any of the categories you mentioned, or any other category of acceptable killing.

OneGyT on December 2, 2008 at 12:53 AM

Wow…I guess you have heard it all. My sister is gay. Don’t know why. Don’t understand it. Don’t really care. It doesn’t define her. There are probably some really bad gay people, but it ain’t cause they’re gay. More than enough bad straight people. My sister is one of the best people on our planet, and that isn’t because she’s gay either. Good folks are good folks. I won’t let anybody mess with her. She’s my sister, and I love her. She probably loves me more, but thay’s a different thread.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 12:50 AM

:)

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:58 AM

How about the teenager who is constantly late and giving you heartache? Oh, yeah, we can still take them to Nebraska, so I guess they can still be born.

Nope, can’t do that any more. Have to be under 30 days old now.

Gianni on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human person with intent or malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice, aforethought, and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and therefore impose severe penalty on its commission.

Wikipedia

Note the words “Human Person”..Knock off that “animal crap”. We eat them.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM

The more I fume about this twitball’s article, the more I like Eugenics. Let’s start with the compassion challenged, then move on the selfishness enhanced. Then we can knock out the motivationally challenged, morally handicapped, and ethically deprived.

I’m in as long as we can do the South Park retro abortion. Hey Minette, I got a coat hanger with your name on it.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 12:41 AM

I second this motion!

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM

;-) sheebe..

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:01 AM

We’ve come so far we have to pass laws to keep abortionists from killing babies as they are being born, and leaving them to die alone and without pain medication after they are born alive if the abortion is botched

And some have elected a president to be who whole heartedly accepts and promotes this! Things don’t bode well for the good ole US of A

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:02 AM

Nope, can’t do that any more. Have to be under 30 days old now.

Gianni on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM

I’m sorry to hear that. I thought it was a smart way to avoid the kind of heart ache the little Anthony girl must have gone through in Florida. If it helps to avoid abuse or worse, states should have less restrictive safe haven laws.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM

The

more I fume about this twitball’s article, the more I like Eugenics. Let’s start with the compassion challenged, then move on the selfishness enhanced. Then we can knock out the motivationally challenged, morally handicapped, and ethically deprived.

I’m in as long as we can do the South Park retro abortion. Hey Minette, I got a coat hanger with your name on it.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 12:41 AM
I second this motion!

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM

I get aggravated too, but c’mon..

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM

Fewer Down syndrome babies, less consumption.

It’s a win/win situation for the left – baby killing and saving mother erf

I recently received a mailed solicitation/survey from a group called Negative Population Growth who are showing “our lawmakers that a clear majority of Americans like you want Congress to pass laws to halt — and even reverse — our overwhelming population numbers.” I was appalled at their balderdash! It would seem the Global Warmers have met the Abortionists have met the Environmentalist Wackos have met the Eugenics crowd. My response: “What part of ‘BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY’ do you not understand?”
Ann Coulter was absolutely right in her book Godless — these people reject God and the Truth so they have to invent their own religion: Killing babies!

Christian Conservative on December 2, 2008 at 1:08 AM

I’m completely pro-life. 100%. That said, if abortion becomes illegal again, what would you do with a doctor who still performs them? How about the woman who has one? What would be the penalty? I’m not suggesting anything here, just curious.

Buford Gooch on December 2, 2008 at 1:10 AM

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM

They were getting too many people dropping of teenagers that were too inconvenient for the parents. Many of whom were from out of state.

Gianni on December 2, 2008 at 1:11 AM

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM

If you don’t support retroactively aborting this Minette entity, then how about calling the dog whisperer to train her to be a better beast.

I am peaved, but you need to watch more South Park.

It is a horrible topic, so I think a little fun at Minette’s expense is in order. Relax, I am not actually advocating doing this, besides all my hangers are wooden. As Mommy Dearest used to tell me, “NO MORE WIRE HANGERS”.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:12 AM

get aggravated too, but c’mon..

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM

You might be missing her point which I agree with… you know taking it to it’s natural progression for somone who has an opposing viewpoint… that’s all

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:12 AM

I

recently received a mailed solicitation/survey from a group called Negative Population Growth who are showing “our lawmakers that a clear majority of Americans like you want Congress to pass laws to halt — and even reverse — our overwhelming population numbers.” I was appalled at their balderdash! It would seem the Global Warmers have met the Abortionists have met the Environmentalist Wackos have met the Eugenics crowd. My response: “What part of ‘BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY’ do you not understand?”
Ann Coulter was absolutely right in her book Godless — these people reject God and the Truth so they have to invent their own religion: Killing babies!

Christian Conservative on December 2, 2008 at 1:08 AM

Can you scan that and email that to HOTAIR? I’m not doubting you, but I haven’t seen that yet. I’m sure that MM/AP would be willing to look into that.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:13 AM

Gianni on December 2, 2008 at 1:11 AM

It was a tough call, and I don’t blame Nebraska. Every story I read was heart breaking. I felt for the kids and the caretakers.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:13 AM

I’m completely pro-life. 100%. That said, if abortion becomes illegal again, what would you do with a doctor who still performs them? How about the woman who has one? What would be the penalty? I’m not suggesting anything here, just curious.

Buford Gooch on December 2, 2008 at 1:10 AM

You would think that with all the effective birth control avaiable …but anyway this is why I have always felt that we have to change hearts about Life…

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:15 AM

Nebraska safe haven law change

Gianni on December 2, 2008 at 1:16 AM

It was a tough call, and I don’t blame Nebraska. Every story I read was heart breaking. I felt for the kids and the caretakers.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:13 AM

How many “special needs” kids got dumped? Oh that’s right…NONE

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:17 AM

When this entry was first posted I made a comment and for some reason it didn’t go through–which is just as well, because I was rather angry. Now I just feel sorry for that woman.

As the mother of a small child with disabilities, I can only wonder at how someone can be so self absorbed. Oh, I have my “give me me time” moments, for sure. But this woman cloaks her hate and insensitivity–and willingness to take it further–in sentences constructed to awe people who are too lazy to actually read what she is saying. And of course the “bittersweet” tone makes it more acceptable to people like that without them even thinking about it.

What’s worse is she denies readers–like the ones who have replied here before me–voice by automatically labelling their perceptions as a form of forced silence. And she is presumptuous enough to say the word “choice” with the predetermination that only one decision is “right.” Funny how in so many other circumstances she and people like her are the first to say things like, “Right for who?”

When will people like this realise they embody all the things they claim to be saving the world from?

My life might not be as hip and exciting as hers, but I wouldn’t have it if it meant I had to give up this precious, sweet little boy of mine. And he’s way more classy than she is as well.

fireweednectar on December 2, 2008 at 1:17 AM

So, this discussion begs the following question:

We currently have the ability to determine that a baby will have Down Syndrome in the womb. Let’s suppose in 2 years they discover a way to fix the baby in the womb.

Is it ethical to do so?

(I ask this from the position that I believe all forms of abortion is murder.)

cryptojunkie on December 2, 2008 at 1:19 AM

If you don’t support retroactively aborting this Minette entity, then how about calling the dog whisperer to train her to be a better beast.

I am peaved, but you need to watch more South Park.

It is a horrible topic, so I think a little fun at Minette’s expense is in order. Relax, I am not actually advocating doing this, besides all my hangers are wooden. As Mommy Dearest used to tell me, “NO MORE WIRE HANGERS”.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:12 AM

get aggravated too, but c’mon..

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM
You might be missing her point which I agree with… you know taking it to it’s natural progression for somone who has an opposing viewpoint… that’s all

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:12 AM

Gotta admit, I don’t watch SP. Not sure I agree with the advice that says I should, but if I took something out of context, I apologize. Forgive me??

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:20 AM

You would think that with all the effective birth control avaiable …but anyway this is why I have always felt that we have to change hearts about Life…

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:15 AM

This is where we can honestly thank the liberals. I am a convert to pro-life. Late-term abortions, partial birth abortions and children born alive left as medical waste to die alone in closets changed my mind. These horrors made me review my stance on all abortion. I couldn’t in any way condone ending innocent lives.

Having my own kids made my convictions even stronger.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:22 AM

Gotta admit, I don’t watch SP. Not sure I agree with the advice that says I should, but if I took something out of context, I apologize. Forgive me??

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:20 AM

Nothing to forgive on my small part…we’re having a discussion and a myriad of things to consider get posted…which is why I participate on this site…my only rule for myself is to ignore trolls…

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:23 AM

So, this discussion begs the following question:

We currently have the ability to determine that a baby will have Down Syndrome in the womb. Let’s suppose in 2 years they discover a way to fix the baby in the womb.

Is it ethical to do so?

(I ask this from the position that I believe all forms of abortion is murder.)

cryptojunkie on December 2, 2008 at 1:19 AM

Philosophy Major? Just kidding. Tough question. I say yes, but I look forward to reading some of the more thoughtful answerers of the HA commenters.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:26 AM

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:20 AM

I don’t know if you’re talking to me, but I have no problem. South Park is tough to watch, but the ending usually makes sitting through the potty humor worth while. The writers are fairly libertarian, although they have been acused of being Republicans. They do have a good time poking fun at liberals.

No worries. I get a little too sarcastic for my own good.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:27 AM

and what more powerful ’social reason’ could there be for an abortion than the virtual certainty that the foetus would be condemned to a life of frustration, disappointment, dependence, serious illness and poverty, to the great sorrow and hardship of its family?

That’s great! After we’ve wiped out around 5 billion people, we’ll have enough oil to last a few centuries at least, and it’ll take care of that global warming thing, too!

Sign me up! What’s that? What do you mean I didn’t make the cut-off? So what if my uncles died of cancer?

CK MacLeod on December 2, 2008 at 1:28 AM

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:20 AM
I don’t know if you’re talking to me, but I have no problem. South Park is tough to watch, but the ending usually makes sitting through the potty humor worth while. The writers are fairly libertarian, although they have been acused of being Republicans. They do have a good time poking fun at liberals.

No worries. I get a little too sarcastic for my own good.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:27 AM

REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Couldn’t help myself :)

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:29 AM

Can we ever go back to what was the best about this country?

I get worried that my pro-life stance is viewed as extreme and ignorant… it seems so Twilight Zoneish to me

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:31 AM

One of the writers of South Park has been quoted as saying the following:

I hate conservatives, but I really f#@#ing hate liberals.

Buford Gooch on December 2, 2008 at 1:31 AM

Can we ever go back to what was the best about this country?

I get worried that my pro-life stance is viewed as extreme and ignorant… it seems so Twilight Zoneish to me

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:31 AM

Think about it..Pro=For..Life=Well…Life.
Can’t see anything ignorant about that. Extreme..ly enlightened..from where I sit. YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:35 AM

We currently have the ability to determine that a baby will have Down Syndrome in the womb. Let’s suppose in 2 years they discover a way to fix the baby in the womb.

Is it ethical to do so?

(I ask this from the position that I believe all forms of abortion is murder.)

cryptojunkie on December 2, 2008 at 1:19 AM

I believe that all good things come from God so what if God is the one who gives a doctor the ability to do this such as doctors who found how to cure polio or some cancers etc?

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:35 AM

In light of all the fury over Proposition 8 in California……………… and to some discussion on this thread..

……………. I think that all Down Syndrome babies both born and unborn, need their own “Civil Rights” Proposition.

………….. I will call it, Proposition Trisomy 21.

I am sure the ACLU, NAACP, and the Homosexual Agenda will fund it extensively……………

What say you Minette? Are you for or against “Civil Rights”?……………..

Seven Percent Solution on December 2, 2008 at 1:36 AM

This article comes as a response to one saying that more parents are giving birth to down’s syndrome children. Not only due to religious reasons, but also because they see the down’s syndrome children can be an integral part of society.

Phoenician on December 2, 2008 at 1:38 AM

I believe that all good things come from God so what if God is the one who gives a doctor the ability to do this such as doctors who found how to cure polio or some cancers etc?

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:35 AM

That’s way better than my answer. What CCRWM said!

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:38 AM

This is where we can honestly thank the liberals. I am a convert to pro-life. Late-term abortions, partial birth abortions and children born alive left as medical waste to die alone in closets changed my mind. These horrors made me review my stance on all abortion. I couldn’t in any way condone ending innocent lives.

Having my own kids made my convictions even stronger.

Laura, very similar situation for me. And you know also what played a role? When I actually started thinking the stuff instead of just feeling it. For example, why is it ok to abort a child conceived of rape, but not one of a mother who just “got pregnant”? How is one less innocent than another?

And yeah, the word you used is spot on: horror. No other word will do.

Another thing that really bugged me: the way abortion–the word and the procedure–started to get tossed around like it was akin to getting your ears pierced. And some people mentioning it in conversation like it was last night’s leftovers. How did we get to a place where doing something like that can become part of casual conversation?

I don’t want to make it sound like I judge anybody who has had an abortion–each person has to deal with it (or not) in whatever way she is equipped. It’s her business and I can’t pretend to know what it’s like to have been in her situation. But I also despise the way abortion has become the solution, instead of birth control and personal responsibility.

In a different direction and more OT: does anybody know anything about stats re: how many foetuses of spontaneous abortions were Downs babies? It came in my head because of the mention of all the Down’s babies we’d have in the world if they didn’t get aborted. But from previous employment I know that more than a few of the SAs showed the babies had been Down’s. So maybe we wouldn’t have all those Down’s babies after all because nature would intervene.

Sorry it got so long.

fireweednectar on December 2, 2008 at 1:40 AM

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:38 AM

LOL…I’m not one of the really smart and thoughtful people on this blog but I think I’m smart enough to hang out on it …

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:43 AM

Just the facts.

(Sorry if this has been posted already.)

Shy Guy on December 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM

LOL…I’m not one of the really smart and thoughtful people on this blog but I think I’m smart enough to hang out on it …

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:43 AM

Not funny. What does that make me?

Don’t answer…OK go ahead.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:46 AM

Not funny. What does that make me?

Don’t answer…OK go ahead.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:46 AM

At least as smart… apparently :)

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:50 AM

sheebe on December 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM

Ummmmm.

1) I didn’t say a word about gay people.
2) My point wasn’t that you could get AIDS from “kissing someone.” I mentioned that it was contagious to point out the fact that folks with AIDS are able to directly effect other people by spreading their pain and suffering to them. People with Down Syndrome keep their disability to themselves.
3) No, at least in America, there aren’t a lot of straight people with AIDS, honestly it is almost entirely a male homosexual disease. And it has been almost unheard of to get AIDS from a transfusion since the 80′s.
4) By saying “the pain they cause themselves…” I wasn’t attempting to assign blame or even responsibility, I was just phrasing things in the way that the author of the article did.

But my point wasn’t to get into a debate about AIDS. I was simply wondering if the author held the same opinions about other people in the similar situations as she does people with Down Syndrome.

29Victor on December 2, 2008 at 1:50 AM

Just the facts.

(Sorry if this has been posted already.)

Shy Guy on December 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM

Great resource…thanks

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:51 AM

LOL…I’m not one of the really smart and thoughtful people on this blog but I think I’m smart enough to hang out on it …

CCRWM on December 2, 2008 at 1:43 AM

All kidding aside, these guys are kind of intimidating. You will be challenged on this site. That’s why I need bourbon before I comment.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 1:51 AM

Sorry it got so long.

fireweednectar on December 2, 2008 at 1:40 AM

If we could have wrapped it up as a one-liner, we’d have solved this long ago;)

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:56 AM

I offer to pay for the authors’ hysterectomy and soul implant.

omnipotent on December 2, 2008 at 2:00 AM

One of the writers of South Park has been quoted as saying the following:

I hate conservatives, but I really f#@#ing hate liberals.
Buford Gooch on December 2, 2008 at 1:31 AM

I think that was Trey Parker. He was surprised at the response of liberals to his commentary. He noted that Republicans are used to getting picked on and therefore tend to let criticism roll off. Democrats yell that they are the “good guys” and shouldn’t be held up for scorn. It was the liberal indignation that really floored the South Park guys. There are no sacred cows in their world.

Even if I don’t always agree with them, they usually have a good point.

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 2:01 AM

Laura in Maryland on December 2, 2008 at 1:56 AM

Absolute grace. :-)

*********

@ Shy Guy: that’s an amasing site!

fireweednectar on December 2, 2008 at 2:03 AM

MINETTE MARRIN = IRRELEVANT

So, why are you quoting her stuff as your “quote of the day”?

TheMightyQuinn on December 2, 2008 at 2:05 AM

When life is trivialized to a matter of convenience or want, then we know evil has captured our consciousness.

Life is a gift.

Black Adam on December 2, 2008 at 2:17 AM

When life is trivialized to a matter of convenience or want, then we know evil has captured our consciousness.

Life is a gift.

Black Adam on December 2, 2008 at 2:17 AM

Is that a quote or is that yours?

I like it.

KCB on December 2, 2008 at 2:25 AM

Life is a gift.

Black Adam on December 2, 2008 at 2:17 AM

Yes it is Adam………………… yes it is.

…………….. unless you are labeled an “inconvenience“.

Seven Percent Solution on December 2, 2008 at 2:29 AM

On the question of “human person”-ness. This is not a moral, ethical, or religious question.

It is a scientific issue, black and white, no gray area. There is a clearly defined, scientifically verifiable, observable, in-an-instant moment hard sharp bright line that divides “not a human being” from “a human being.”

That hard sharp bright line is the moment when a single sperm pentrates the ovum. In an instant, a chemical change flashes across the surface of the ovum that absolutely locks out the millions of other struggling sperm cells.

At that instant, the unique genetic characteristics of an individual human being are determined: gender, eye color, skin color, male pattern baldness, predisposition to cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, or breast cancer… a hundred different things.

It happens in an instant. We are human beings from the moment of conception. There is no rational argument to the contrary.

skydaddy on December 2, 2008 at 2:38 AM

So, why are you quoting her stuff as your “quote of the day”?

Because it’s amazingly stupid and wrongheaded. It’s “Quote of the day,” not “Quote that Allahpundit agrees with of the day.” Good grief, people.

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2008 at 3:01 AM

Sorry about the triplicate posts. Perhaps, they were held in moderation because they contained two links?? If so, I didn’t get a messages stating that after I hit submit.

Blake on December 2, 2008 at 4:07 AM

When the value of any human life becomes a matter of another’s convenience, we lose a big part of what makes humans something other than animals in pants. Our awareness extends beyond our surroundings and immediate needs. We value life not just to avoid death but because we know the value of that gift. As I’ve stated before, I had a brother who was the most severe case of Down’s Syndrome I’d ever seen. He lived 24 years. He was a huge burden on our family and every decision was based around his care. So what? Were we promised a life without challenges? Were you? How can you comprehend the good that came from that “burden”? If you define compassion as killing the less-than-perfect to ease the burdens on the perfect, what then are you worth? And in who’s eyes? We are most pitiful when we try to make gods of ourselves.

SKYFOX on December 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM

People in favor of abortion should be given the same option cats have: if the newborn is defective…eat it…if you can’t…raise it!

Ropera on December 2, 2008 at 5:57 AM

So… you’re saying we should just go ahead and abort all future liberals.

Stunning.

Mojave Mark on December 1, 2008 at 10:42 PM

Yeah , that’s the conclusion of it.

the_nile on December 2, 2008 at 6:28 AM

I can not imagine ever getting an abortion. I think the idea that a child could leave school to get an abortion without her parents knowing is insane. But then again, I think that if a woman is ill or if the mother is a child herself and the victim of abuse there are times when an abortion is a necessary evil. For instance, I had a friend many years ago who was too sick to carry the fetus, if she had tried to do so they both would have perished. But instances such as this are relatively rare.

However, there are all kinds of damaged people in the world. In my job I have taken care of many of them. People damaged by accidents or illnesses of all sorts. Needless to say a lot of these people were born perfect. The point to this being we do not know who will lead a bad or good life at birth. We do not know what life has in store for any of us.My mother went blind because of a genetic condition known as RP, should we test the unborn for that too? What about cancer genes? MS and MD? The list of things that can go wrong goes on forever.

Terrye on December 2, 2008 at 6:29 AM

The truth is this attitude is reminiscent of eugenics. I read that back in the 20′s enlightend people in Vermont were sterilizing Indians with a history of alcoholism because their lives were miserable and they were a burden to society. Of course Hitler came along and people did not want to be associated with eugenics once it became known the Nazis were big believers in it.

Terrye on December 2, 2008 at 6:32 AM

I’m sure other families feel differently about their disabled children.

His statement on abortion has the sweet sound of logic… ahhh, like music.

AbaddonsReign on December 2, 2008 at 6:42 AM

You know where I have seen the greatest frustration, disappointment,dependence, illness and poverty? Not within families with Down’s or disabilities, but within those families who bore perfectly normal children who as adolescents turned to bad behvior and drugs despite all the family could do stop them and subsequently disgraced themselves, becoming dependent, ill and impovershed as adults. Looks to me like abortion is no way to ensure we are disappointment, frustration and poverty free.
C’mon people…we in this nation value life…that’s where we put our money. Don’t conceive life unless you are ready for it.

gracie on December 2, 2008 at 6:45 AM

This writer doesn’t want to be called a “heartless eugenicist.”
.
Words have meanings. If you support or promote the abortion of defective fetuses then you support or promote eugenics. It’s a simple definition of terms.
.
It is not up to the pro-life community to accept a redefinition of ‘eugenics’ simply because it offends her sensibilities.

Matushka on December 2, 2008 at 6:59 AM

Slippery slpope. Once you come to the conclusion that some life is ok to kill than you give tact agreement that all life is at some point ok to kill.

unseen on December 2, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Exactly.

Zorro on December 2, 2008 at 7:06 AM

Prior to the availability of the curative step, I would expect some people to abort, because they cannot handle the thought that their child will have Down’s Syndrome, Sickle Cell Anemia, or gayness (should that turn out to be classed as a disease). ***
unclesmrgol on December 2, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Dirty little secret–homosexuality is not a congenital condition. There is zero credible scientific evidence to support that conclusion. Male homosexuality occurs during adolescence, usually the result of influence from adult homosexuals. I went to an all boy school and knew of at least two homosexual faculty/staff who would troll and try to sew confusion and convert students. In addition, a famous Princeton psychologist was even able to develop a protocol to cure homosexuality, before the gay lobby shut him down. (Why would the gay lobby oppose a voluntary psychological therapy? No freedom of choice I guess!)

Outlander on December 2, 2008 at 7:33 AM

How is it that the US Gov’t should have any say in what a woman choose’s?
I’m surprised the women let this BS go on.

Jed1899 on December 2, 2008 at 7:35 AM

Funny how these “pro-choice” people sound so sincere, so caring…but when you ask about partial birth abortion, they remain silent. Notice she covers so much about abortion, but never the unspeakable partial birth abortion.
It is as if it never exists…that is how you can tell they just want abortion, any kind, anywhere, for any reason.

right2bright on December 2, 2008 at 7:36 AM

Outlander on December 2, 2008 at 7:33 AM

The problem you stated won’t be resolved. Because it is so political, true science can’t take place.
Like the back alley abortions, true scientist have to study homosexuality in disguise.
Every attempt to have an honest, scientific, unbiased, study, it is shut down by a very powerful, vocal, and demonstrative lobby.
I don’t know if “gay” is genetic, or learned…but every time some one floats the learned behavior” theory they are savaged and silenced. You won’t find hardly any studies in the past 20 years. You would never be able to keep your job as a researcher at a university long enough to complete a study.

right2bright on December 2, 2008 at 7:42 AM

I am pro-choice, but I would never condemn or put down anyone who brings into this world a child who has special needs. I’ve worked with dual diagnosed kids, and perhaps my favorite one was a Down’s Syndrome kid. He was a lot of fun and did teach me about patience.

I would rather live in a society that valued each life (even if it outlawed abortion in most every case) than in one where only the perfect were allowed to live.

And if the Nazi comparison is too much, how about the ancient Spartans who did about the same thing.

rbj on December 2, 2008 at 8:02 AM

I, too, have lived with family members who raised Downs children. It was a mixed bag. In one case the mom, who was older than usual when the child was born, became unable to care for the girl and other family members could not take the person on. She(child)eventually died in her 30′s) in a state suported setting where it was impossble to tell if she was happy or unhappy. In the second case two sibs(it was a large family)more or less sacrificed their own futures and shouldered the care of the child until he died in his 40′s. Neither of the sibs found others willing to share this choice with them or were afraid of having a Down’s child themselves. At least this is how I saw it, they never said. It was never clear whether these were unhappy with their choice(and it was their choice)or not. I, knowing these things, would not have chosen to keep a Down’s child had I been forced to make this awful choice.

jeanie on December 2, 2008 at 8:27 AM

My brother was perfectly healthy for 7 years until he became brain-damaged by a virus and lived for another five years; imperfect? yes, but a wonderful miracle we got to love for that extra time. My mother, who took care of him at home, often says that these people who abort imperfect babies don’t realize that an accident or illness to their later “perfect” babies can turn their perfect world around just like that. What are they going to do then? Dump these children in an institution or open their hearts to an unexpected bump in the road that sends them on a path they never would have chosen, but a path that opens their hearts up to what is really important in life…love, loyalty, hard-work, sacrifice, pride. I know my brother and sisters would be lesser people if we didn’t experience the sorrow and joy we felt as we loved our broken brother. As John Paul II has said:

“Today I make an urgent plea to this nation. Do not neglect your sick and elderly. Do not turn away from the handicapped and the dying. Do not push them to the margins of society. For, if you do, you will fail to understand that they represent an important truth. The sick, the elderly, the handicapped and the dying teach us that weakness is a creative part of human living, and that suffering can be embraced with no loss of dignity. Without the presence of these people in your midst you might be tempted to think of health, strength and power as the only important values to be pursued in life. But the wisdom of Christ and the power of Christ are to be seen in the weakness of those who share his sufferings. “

deedledee on December 2, 2008 at 8:29 AM

She thinks there’s a “Down’s lobby,” and that it’s not only organized but aggressive. She’s clearly deranged.

DrSteve on December 2, 2008 at 8:33 AM

I couldn’t agree more with Sarah Palin’s decision to keep Trig, I worked with children with Down’s Syndrome for two summers and have always been appalled by the high abortion rates for them. Still, I find it irritating when conservatives praise Palin’s “choice” to keep Trig when they would be against her having that choice in the first place.

crr6 on December 2, 2008 at 8:42 AM

One of the most reliable clerks at the market nearby is a Down’s teenager. She is on time, reliable, friendly…and this twit would not have allowed her to be born.

PattyJ on December 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM

For years I shopped at a grocery store that had a 40-ish guy who bagged the groceries. He was a very nice fellow who always liked to chat with me (and other customers as well) as he bagged the groceries. He looked normal but he was a bit slow and confused sometimes, and I just assumed that he was slightly retarded, and had always been that way. Then one day the cashier handed me the wrong amount of change and the grocery bagger (whose name was Dave) corrected her. He had added the numbers so fast in his head (and accurately) that I told him he had some impressive math skills. Dave walked with me out to the parking lot, and that’s when he told me his story: he had been an accountant for years, then one day seven years earlier he had been in a bad car accident, and he had sustained a severe head injury that caused brain damage. He’d gone through rehab, and had been placed in a group home and given the job at the grocery store. I asked him how he felt about things now. He said he liked his life; the people at the group home had become like a family to him, and he enjoyed working at the store. He said he felt frustrated sometimes that he wasn’t able to do the things he used to do before the accident (like being an accountant and riding his motorcycle, both of which he had loved), but he had learned to cope with it. We talked some more, then he smiled and waved and went back to work.

I wonder what the author of this article would have done with Dave? He had certainly experienced frustration and disappointment as a result of his condition, and his job at the grocery store was never going to make him rich. I’m sure his family had also experienced tremendous sorrow over what had happened to Dave, and no doubt worried a great deal about his future. Should he have been euthanized after the accident to save everybody the heartache?

As other posters have noted, none of us gets guaranteed a perfect life, not even those of us who start life as babies without any obvious “flaws.” We’re all susceptible — throughout our lives — to life-altering events (accidents, illnesses, crimes, etc.) that can completely change our circumstances in an instant. We need to be very careful about making judgments about the quality or value of anyone else’s life.

AZCoyote on December 2, 2008 at 8:44 AM

I am sorry but I can’t see where in the article it says who made these comments. From the readers comments I am assuming it was Gorilla girl mo. I can’t believe she will be our first lady. Ugh!!! After the grace and dignity of Laura Bush, we have this fist bumping mean-spirited, socialist witch….We are on the wrong track……Uck

clinker46 on December 2, 2008 at 8:59 AM

As soon as science is able to determine a baby in the womb will be gay, I’m sure many will be aborted.

I don’t want to be a wet blanket, but people are not “born gay.” Homosexuality is not a preference, but a wrong that comes of a failure of either the parents or child in certain areas. E.g. if a father is absent from a son’s life, he is more likely to find the satisfaction he lost by looking in unorthodox places.

Aronne on December 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM

I guess I must just be a simpleton. I meet people who have children with all sorts of special needs and they are fabulous parents who have patience and understanding far exceeding my own. The bible says adversity breeds character. That seems to be a simple truth, however I see it over and over again. I am confident I do not have the wisdom to decide who lives and who dies in the womb or exactly when life begins so I guess the best thing to do is error on the side of life. Again simple but effective.

reaganrules on December 2, 2008 at 9:03 AM

“Someone close to me in our family has a learning disability, which has been a handicap and a sorrow to her so I think she should be dead.”

Fixed it for her.

Evil, evil woman.

Gina on December 2, 2008 at 9:06 AM

I am sorry but I can’t see where in the article it says who made these comments. From the readers comments I am assuming it was Gorilla girl mo. I can’t believe she will be our first lady. Ugh!!! After the grace and dignity of Laura Bush, we have this fist bumping mean-spirited, socialist witch….We are on the wrong track……Uck

clinker46 on December 2, 2008 at 8:59 AM

Click the link at the bottom of HA’s excerpt of the quote.

thomasaur on December 2, 2008 at 9:10 AM

“It’s not eugenics because LOOK OVER THERE!!“

Jim Treacher
Has this woman dead to rights. She takes her feelings, dresses them up in some pseudo-intellectual language and acts like it’s a reasoned argument.
And how long before the social engineers want to abort more than the unborn?

snaggletoothie on December 1, 2008 at 11:14 PM

You both capsulize the arguements against socialized-nationalized health care the best. In systems where the State determines how the health dollar is allocated and who lives/who dies, people have ceded themselves to a hopeless, futureless abyss.

onlineanalyst on December 2, 2008 at 9:11 AM

Clinker46, if you’re still talking about the Down syndrome article, there’s nothing about Michelle Obama there. (And in any case, “Gorilla girl” is really over the top. I don’t like her either, but let’s not sink to our opponents’ level.)

Crr6, of course pro-lifers are against the choice to murder babies with Down syndrome. Someone has to stand up for them, as they can’t defend themselves. But until that evil “choice” to kill is made illegal, why shouldn’t we praise parents who do the right thing? Especially when only 10 percent of parents of these babies do it?

Gina on December 2, 2008 at 9:12 AM

I’m torn between my moral rejection of abortion and my intellectual curiosity about seeing evolution in action. It seems like maybe in the grand scheme of things, liberals/idiots/betas will continue to abort their offspring, eventually leading to their extinction. Should we stop the lemmings as they commit self-genocide, or let nature take its course? Who are we to interfere in God’s plans?

But then I think that every baby has a chance at redemption, because I know I was raised by fairly liberal parents and I turned the corner…

Windbag has it right, its all about defining when something is “alive”, after that point, its murder. I hear (women usually) asking, “Do we want the government deciding what we can or can’t do with our bodies?” and my answer is, “Yes”. Our government’s primary function is to protect its citizens, and if you want to kill someone, they definitely should be able to prevent you from doing it. So in answer to the follow up question, yes you should be put in jail if you get an abortion performed, just like you should be put in jail if you smother your 1 year old…

Whenever mankind messes with the order of the world (determining which lives are worth living in this case), great harm is done and it never turns out well. People such as the author should perhaps reconsider their position, because the assumption is that only reasonable people will be determining who is viable and who isn’t. Where will the line be drawn on which babies are kept and which aren’t? My greatest fear is that abortions start to be mandated by the state…

Geministorm on December 2, 2008 at 9:21 AM

Gina on December 2, 2008 at 9:12 AM

Because f she truly believes that an abortion violates God’s law which is infinitely more sacrosanct than any human law, than she deserves no more praise for keeping Trig than I would for not gunning down any random strangers.
The fact that even anti-choice zealots are praising Palin’s “choice” simply demonstrates that Roe v. Wade is deeply and permanently embedded in the American psyche. It is seen tacitly seen like divorce, as an unfortunate choice, a reprehensible choice, but a choice that we should have every right to make.

crr6 on December 2, 2008 at 9:23 AM

oy, next time I’ll proofread. You get the idea.

crr6 on December 2, 2008 at 9:25 AM

I am convinced that it is a grave misfortune for babies to be born with Down’s or any comparably serious syndrome. It’s a misfortune for their parents and their siblings as well. Sad observations over decades have convinced me: a damaged baby is a damaged family, even now…

and what more powerful ’social reason’ could there be for an abortion than the virtual certainty that the foetus would be condemned to a life of frustration, disappointment, dependence, serious illness and poverty, to the great sorrow and hardship of its family?

With all due respect, Minette Marrin, people with the biggest hardships I have found to be the most compassionate and kind people. They teach us all great lessons on the important things in life- like the precious, sacred value of life itself.

latinchic on December 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM

You both capsulize the arguements against socialized-nationalized health care the best. In systems where the State determines how the health dollar is allocated and who lives/who dies, people have ceded themselves to a hopeless, futureless abyss.

onlineanalyst on December 2, 2008 at 9:11 AM

The author is making the case that some mothers will go through the same soul searching or calculus once the amniocentesis results come back. Seeing a child become independent is a comfort that allows a parent to accept the onset of their own old age. Unless the parent is able to provide a significant trust fund for a Down Syndrome child, and/or rely on a large family, the author points to the double burden that the parent faces when contemplating their own demise.

Having the state impose the decision would violate the concept of privacy that SCOTUS found in the penumbra of the Constitution.

dedalus on December 2, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Sorry, gotta disagree with most of the posters.

God gave us a brain to make tough decisions. (And, no, I don’t believe the Bible clearly says abortion is murder).

If you think you (and your family) can’t deal with a Down’s kid, then abort it. If you think you can’t handle a child, then have an early elective abortion.

End of story. You have to take care of yourself first.

Down’s kids may be cute and loving and all that crap, but I sure wouldn’t want one.

Call me selfish and proud of it.

jim m on December 2, 2008 at 9:47 AM

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