No plots for Mumbai terrorists: Indian Muslim trust

posted at 11:43 am on December 1, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

It may be a small gesture, but a welcome one in a city devastated by a terrorist massacre.  An influential Muslim trust has refused to bury the bodies of the nine terrorists who killed at least 174 people in Mumbai, declaring that they have no place in Islam.  The decision will mean that the dead terrorists will likely not find any burial sites in Mumbai, and that they will probably not get buried within the required three days:

A Muslim graveyard in the heart of Mumbai has broken with Islamic tradition and refused to bury the bodies of nine terrorists who were killed during the attack on India’s financial capital.

The influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust, which runs the 7.5-acre Badakabrastan graveyard, said it would not bury the gunmen because they were not true followers of Islam.

Hanif Nalkhande, a spokesman for the trust, said: “People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim. Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime.” …

Unclaimed bodies thought to be Muslim are traditionally given to the nearest Islamic graveyard for burial after three days but that now looks impossible in Mumbai.

There are seven other Muslim graveyards in Mumbai, but the Jama Masjid’s influence means none of the others are likely to accept the bodies.

I’d find the nearest pig sty and toss the bodies into it.  That would send a message to Islamist terrorists who want to die in foreign lands while killing as many innocent people as possible.  In the end, they’ll wind up with the swine, where they belonged in the first place.

Good for the Jama Masjid and the Muslim scholars that publicly backed this decision.


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I think it would be appropriate to bury them in a hog wallow.
Or just go drop them in the city dump.

tre on December 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Wont last. They’ll find “accommodations” by tomorrow, otherwise this could prove to be an effective weapon against terror world-wide. Fat chance.

Agrippa2k on December 1, 2008 at 11:48 AM

In the end, they’ll wind up with the swine, where they belonged in the first place.

Ed, I agree. Being eaten by Pigs or Hogs… would be the foulest death/grave for a radical muslim.

upinak on December 1, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Islamokooks in the US please take notes.

Alden Pyle on December 1, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Burying these “brave” jihadi warriors with the pigs would be an insult to pigs.

wildcat84 on December 1, 2008 at 11:49 AM

I’d wrap them in a pigskin then toss them in the ocean. Kudos to the Muslim scholars and the trust for not treating these scum as martyrs.

Ellen on December 1, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Buzzards and jackals gotta eat too…

mojo on December 1, 2008 at 11:50 AM

Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime.” ??

hmmm..am I reading that right>?

becki51758 on December 1, 2008 at 11:52 AM

Throw them in the ocean. Sharks are hungry all the time. That is good news that the Muslim Scholars did refuse to bury them.

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 11:52 AM

Is anyone aware of the fact that the gunman is wearing a HINDU BRACELET?

OF course they won’t give them muslim burials….they’re not muslims.

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Unfortunately, now these brave souls will have to watch their backs 24/7.

The price of liberty is constant vigilance, as Ben Franklin said.

BKennedy on December 1, 2008 at 11:54 AM

I hope this allows more Muslims to stand up and speak out. “Sorry, not in my Paradise. No virgins for you!”

sammypants on December 1, 2008 at 11:56 AM

I’d find the nearest pig sty and toss the bodies into it.

That’s an insult to pigs.

MadisonConservative on December 1, 2008 at 12:00 PM

wow, this was some serious ****

lodge on December 1, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Nice gesture? So was the Saudi princes offer of money to Rudy.

BL@KBIRD on December 1, 2008 at 12:03 PM

I’d find the nearest pig sty and toss the bodies into it.
That’s an insult to pigs.

MadisonConservative on December 1, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Actually the pigs would EAT the corpses and then crap them out. POS to POS

thomasaur on December 1, 2008 at 12:04 PM

I would hang them on the street in the city

al on December 1, 2008 at 12:05 PM

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Yes, they were.

At the railway station, Azam and his colleague opened fire, targeting Caucasian tourists while trying to spare Muslims.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/world/13499-terrorists-posed-as-malaysian-students

reaganaut on December 1, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Terrorists should be denied the burial.

Use their 7th century death cult beliefs against them.

NoDonkey on December 1, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Oops, missed lodge’s post looking for the link.

reaganaut on December 1, 2008 at 12:06 PM

What about the Saudis and Iraq?

They need to be embarrassed enough to follow this precedent.

Right_of_Attila on December 1, 2008 at 12:08 PM

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM

They also did not have beards… ever hear of a disguise?

Romeo13 on December 1, 2008 at 12:08 PM

They will probable be buried with the highest honors possible in some place like Iran or Syria. This sounds like an empty gesture to me.

Tommy_G on December 1, 2008 at 12:09 PM

Has anyone thought to equip anti terror squads with bullets dipped in pig fat? Just a suggestion.

Vashta.Nerada on December 1, 2008 at 12:13 PM

LEAVE THE PIGS ALONE!!! :(

Shy Guy on December 1, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Throw them in the ocean. Sharks are hungry all the time. That is good news that the Muslim Scholars did refuse to bury them.

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 11:52 AM

Unfortunately the shark stocks have suffered so badly under modern fishing techniquest that it is unlikely these bodies would be consumed. Better to burn them.

The interesting thing here is that if you look objectively at what the Muslim Scholars are saying, the terrorists will be denied going to paradise. This is how to deal with terrorists. Make them afraid of being denied their virginal delights, and they will loose incentive.

Pig blood on all US ammunition should do the trick.

Marine_Bio on December 1, 2008 at 12:13 PM

reaganaut on December 1, 2008 at 12:05 PM

No they weren’t muslims.

Just because an article says they targetted Caucasians and “tried to avoid muslims” doesn’t mean anything.

The man in the picture is wearing a HINDU BRACELET.

Plus..what kind of “muslim martyr” say this…

At first, Azam remained tight-lipped, but the sight of Ismail’s mutilated body broke his resolve.

Pleading with medical staff to save his life, he said: “I do not want to die. Please put me on saline.”

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM

No burial plots for virgin seeking Jihadys
who are seeking martydom in foreign lands!

Me likey how that sounds,it almost has that
crazy moonbat ring to it,like;

‘No blood for oil’!

‘No plots for Jihadys’!
———————————————-

Actually,I think caring compassionate bleeding heart
Liberals should have this as a service announcement
campaign!

Like,

A video,showing a Jihady,going Ka-Bluey to tiny itsy-bitsy
microscopic pieces,and as a service announcement,have it
explained that any Jihady who blows himself up to kingdom
come,won’t be buried in a burial plot in foreign lands,
including the United States or Canada!

Now that should send a very strong message to virgin seek
ing martyrs I would think! A hem,(Sarc.)

canopfor on December 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM

Good story, bad headline.

blueguitarbob on December 1, 2008 at 12:17 PM

I hope this gets a lot of coverage over here. /crosses fingers

TastyPanda on December 1, 2008 at 12:19 PM

Poles.

Hooks.

Heads on pikes.

Bodies left hanging in public for the crows to feast on.

pseudonominus on December 1, 2008 at 12:20 PM

At first, Azam remained tight-lipped, but the sight of Ismail’s mutilated body broke his resolve.

Pleading with medical staff to save his life, he said: “I do not want to die. Please put me on saline.”

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM

One whose faith is suddenly overcome by the survival instinct?

Romeo13 on December 1, 2008 at 12:24 PM

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM

The cowardly kind.

Everything they did and said points to them being Muslim. A single bracelet is not enough evidence. If you have the terrorists claiming that they’re Hindu, please link.

apollyonbob on December 1, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Why would the graveyard burial issue even be raised if they weren’t Muslim? Why would the Muslim graveyard publicly deny their burial if they weren’t Muslim?

It is obvious that no one is going to claim them, most likely not even their own families. Whoever designed this whole thing had to consider they were going to die.

It will be interesting to see how the hard-liner clerics treat this.

jcheney on December 1, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Is anyone aware of the fact that the gunman is wearing a HINDU BRACELET?

OF course they won’t give them muslim burials….they’re not muslims.

SaintOlaf on December 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Such an authoritative stance should come with substantive proof or supporting details.

Hindu bracelet…that settles it.

The Race Card on December 1, 2008 at 12:27 PM

In the end, they’ll wind up with the swine, where they belonged in the first place.

Please don’t insult swine like that.

Marking Time on December 1, 2008 at 12:31 PM

The man in the picture is wearing a HINDU BRACELET.

I realize that, but they were trying to blend in. If I wear a Hindu bracelet does that make me a Hindu?

Look at the names of the dead terrorists, they are all Muslim names, the were trained by Muslims (Lashkar-e-Toiba is the military wing of the Markaz-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), an Islamic fundamentalist organisation of the Ahle-Hadith sect in Pakistan.)

The dead ones were all Muslim. So they had a weak link with this kid from the picture, he lived and spilled the beans. I’m sure his full story will come out soon. He is a unique case, and they were lucky to get him alive.

There are 9 dead terrorists from this group who didn’t ask to be “put on saline”, not to mention the other ones who were in place ahead of time.

reaganaut on December 1, 2008 at 12:31 PM

Reminder: many of the terrorists posed as anything but Muslim terrorists.

Shy Guy on December 1, 2008 at 12:32 PM

I’d find the nearest pig sty and toss the bodies into it.

…you’ve got me thinkin’ “Mr. Lee” from “Deadwood” here…and the idea suits me fine….

…this is one of the first instances I’ve seen of muslims actually acting like human beings where murderous terrorism is concerned…too bad the muslims of Mumbai are the only ones acting thus…the muslims of Cairo, Baghdad, Riyadh, Tehran, Jerusalem, Gaza, France, the UK, Damascus, Beirut, and elsewhere haven’t matured to this point….

Puritan1648 on December 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM

If you listen to the terrorists religious leaders, they’re saying no matter how evil they need to be planted in the ground pushing up the daisy’s.

A pig sty would be preferable and appropriate

Kini on December 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM

No Plots? They’re already being hailed across the Muslim world as Heroes for killing the Apostate Jews, Christians and Hindus!

This is a meaningless gesture!

Dale in Atlanta on December 1, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Toss pig entrails on their bodies and stick then in a hole in the ground.

Hilts on December 1, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Bury each one with a slaughtered pig and let the other terrorists take note of what is in store for them.

DL13 on December 1, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Ed seems a little fired up.

Theworldisnotenough on December 1, 2008 at 12:41 PM

Pig blood on all US ammunition should do the trick.

Marine_Bio on December 1, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Hell yes.

Dark-Star on December 1, 2008 at 12:42 PM

The influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust, which runs the 7.5-acre Badakabrastan graveyard, said it would not bury the gunmen because they were not true followers of Islam.

A faint sign of hope…

Zorro on December 1, 2008 at 12:43 PM

Finally! A Muslim entity acts to stop this madness.

azlibertarian on December 1, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Wonder how many death threats the Trust has received since making this announcement. I bet they break and bury them.

nukemhill on December 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM

India Muslims, making sure those 72 Virgins remain intact and lonely;)

May God Bless You India.
Setting the Right Example, 1 Dec 2008.

Dr Evil on December 1, 2008 at 1:00 PM

Guess Google is now taking Atlas Shrugs stuff about The One off. They are censoring it. Was reading on the terror attack in India. Clicked on a link. Said not there. Hmmmmmmmmmmm…..

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 1:02 PM

It’s about damned time a group of Muslims made such a strong statement essentially posthumously excommunicating terrorists. If more Muslims had the guts and the moral judgment to do that there would be a whole lot less terrorism in the world.

By the way, I like this idea.

I’d find the nearest pig sty and toss the bodies into it.

I’ve said for years that we should feed terrorists – dead or alive – to pigs, “Hannibal” style.

OscarSchneegans on December 1, 2008 at 1:03 PM

From the link by lodge on December 1, 2008 at 12:02 PM:

six to seven magazines of 50 bullets each

50 round AK mags? That doesn’t sound right.

Reports, however, say that the grilling at the hospital had been so intense that at one point, he pleaded with the police and medical staff to kill him.

I just hope he wasn’t waterboarded. The horror. The horror.

TexasDan on December 1, 2008 at 1:18 PM

While desecrating the bodies by feeding them to swine is attractive, the best strategy is to keep them in limbo for as long as possible.

Any attempt to claim the bodies should be met with a mountain of paperwork. Thus, this story can be kept going for a long, long time and the fate of the bodies seared into the memories of every would-be terrorist.

Also, actually doing something objectionable with the bodies would give loonies something crazy to cling to.

Pythagoras on December 1, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Dead terrorists: “But we still get our 72 virgins, right?”

whitetop on December 1, 2008 at 1:18 PM

lodge on December 1, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Interesting read.

Fletch54 on December 1, 2008 at 1:20 PM

The 2-year-old orphan found drenched in the blood of his parents at the besieged Jewish center in Mumbai left India on Monday on an Israeli Air Force jet, accompanied by the Indian woman who rescued him.

JiangxiDad on December 1, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Guess Google is now taking Atlas Shrugs stuff about The One off. They are censoring it. Was reading on the terror attack in India. Clicked on a link. Said not there. Hmmmmmmmmmmm…..

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Yep. Removed Google from the search list in my browser. Will have to stick with Yahoo.

JiangxiDad on December 1, 2008 at 1:23 PM

Pig blood on all US ammunition should do the trick.

Marine_Bio on December 1, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Hell yes.

Dark-Star on December 1, 2008 at 12:42 PM

Unfortunately the Osama administration would NEVER allow the extremists’ stone-aged, superstitious religious beliefs to be insulted in such a politically incorrect fashion.

For that matter, neither would any career politician.

I, on the other hand, am all for it. And we should broadcast the videos across the world of our soldiers smearing their ammo with bacon grease.

UltimateBob on December 1, 2008 at 1:26 PM

The 2-year-old orphan found drenched in the blood of his parents at the besieged Jewish center in Mumbai left India on Monday on an Israeli Air Force jet, accompanied by the Indian woman who rescued him.

Hearing that in my car the other day. Had to pull over and cry. That is just horrible. Evidently he was under his mothers body. He was not only covered in blood, but hysterical. Sick people.

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 1:26 PM

sheebe on December 1, 2008 at 1:26 PM

I cried too. Not five minutes ago.

JiangxiDad on December 1, 2008 at 1:29 PM

I’m not sarcastic when i say that I’m shocked—in a GOOD way.

Christine on December 1, 2008 at 1:33 PM

Poles. Hooks. Heads on pikes.

Bodies left hanging in public for the crows to feast on.

pseudonominus on December 1, 2008 at 12:20 PM

And the vermin that is still alive should spend eternity in hell looking for his eyeballs, which the crows have eaten.

Jaibones on December 1, 2008 at 1:43 PM

I read this earlier this morning and am surprised you fell for this cheap Muslim PR ploy. But, Ed, given your constant promotion of pan-Islamist Grover Norquist, I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

When they start denying burial plots to HAMAS and Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Fatah homicide bombers and terrorists, then it’s something to take note of and worth calling a “gesture”.

They aren’t doing this out of kindness, but out of recognition that it will bring increased, deserved ill will toward them from non-Muslims in India who are sick and tired of their crap.

Debbie Schlussel on December 1, 2008 at 1:58 PM

TexasDan: 50 round AK mags? That doesn’t sound right.

I’m sure the newsies were just regurgitating whatever mis-info the local cop shop gave them. The average red-state American has more familiarity with firearms than any third world LEO.

Kristopher on December 1, 2008 at 1:59 PM

“People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim. Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime.”

Nice sentiment, but I suppose this guy has never heard of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

Alex_SF on December 1, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Call for Mr. Woo. Call for Mr. Woo.

andycanuck on December 1, 2008 at 2:27 PM

I, on the other hand, am all for it. And we should broadcast the videos across the world of our soldiers smearing their ammo with bacon grease.

UltimateBob on December 1, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Because you know terrorists are like eggs…better with a little bacon grease… :D

Marine_Bio on December 1, 2008 at 2:40 PM

Nice sentiment, but I suppose this guy has never heard of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
Alex_SF on December 1, 2008 at 2:26 PM

…Just like (to hear liberals tell it) there’s never been a “true Communist”, or a “true Socialist” in the history of the world.

Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Moa Zedong, Pol Pot, and their dozens of imitators and millions of supporters… of course they all held, espoused and enacted the same BELIEFS that every moonbat holds. But the “moderate” collectivists always claim that next time everything will be completely different – um, somehow.

The core belief of Islam is the same as the core belief of Communism: that once the last disbeliever is gone, and the world is united under one yoke, then (somehow, magically) the earth will become a Paradise.

Of course, the followers of those belief systems wouldn’t MIND if everyone on earth would just spontaneously decide to follow them. But deep down inside, the moderates know full well that only the hard-core practitioners will do what has to be done to get from here to there.

logis on December 1, 2008 at 2:54 PM

Debbie Schlussel hits the nail on the head with this:

When they start denying burial plots to HAMAS and Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Fatah homicide bombers and terrorists, then it’s something to take note of and worth calling a “gesture”.

They aren’t doing this out of kindness, but out of recognition that it will bring increased, deserved ill will toward them from non-Muslims in India who are sick and tired of their crap.

What is disheartening is that these very different assessments of what this means apparently cannot be discussed in a mutually respectful open forum, not here, not anywhere.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 3:05 PM

When they start denying burial plots to HAMAS and Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Fatah

Has the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust buried these in the past?

exception on December 1, 2008 at 3:14 PM

exception:

Has the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust buried these in the past?

The point is that in other areas, Islamic jihadists are celebrated as heroes and buried as martyrs. Even Suleyman Talovic was given an Islamic burial in Kosovo. That this is the single example to the overall practice, coming in a country where Deobandi Islam preaches jihad and Islamic supremacism openly (they recently condemned “terrorism” — by the West), is entirely singular, and apparently not based on any refutation of the Islamic principles upon which the Mumbai jihadists based their actions (in fact, the Dar ul Uloom Deoband holds to those principles). As such it is much more likely that Debbie is right that this is just a PR move rather than a genuine rejection of what happened at Mumbai.

If the Deobandis or the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust issues a statement repudiating the idea that Muslims must fight (in various ways) to impose Islamic law upon believers and may in some circumstances legitimately kill unbelievers, I will happily retract these words.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 3:27 PM

Has the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust buried these in the past?

exception on December 1, 2008 at 3:14 PM

Makes no difference–a red herring question. When they refuse to take ANY Islamic terrorists, then it will be worth noting. And when Muclim cemeteries in the Mid-East refuse to take any Islamic terrorist murderer’s bodies, then it will be of note. And when they don’t feel the need to make it a PR point about Islam, which we all know is phony. This is not about doing the right thing. It’s about avoiding further reaction from the Indian people, who are not as gullible and flat-out ignorant as apparently so many Americans are about Islam and its pattern of deceit and PR BS.

Calling attention to this story or praising this is like saying you believe in the post-9/11 “the hijackers hijacked our religion” BS.

Oh, and by the way, had these terrorists only targeted the Jewish Chabad House, you can bet this cemetery wouldn’t be denying them burial.

That they announced this to the press–when these men were Pakistani and would be buried in Pakistan anyway–should tell you that this is story designed for good Muslim PR. Nothing else.

Debbie Schlussel on December 1, 2008 at 3:30 PM

Hindu’s are not pacifists. The Muslims of India know they are facing a potential backlash that could kill thousands of Muslims. It has happened before. They are trotting out meaningless gestures in a CYA campaign.

sharrukin on December 1, 2008 at 3:55 PM

Has Farrakhan offered his backyard for their burial? Or Ayers? They all have huge houses.

macncheez on December 1, 2008 at 4:03 PM

They aren’t doing this out of kindness, but out of recognition that it will bring increased, deserved ill will toward them from non-Muslims in India who are sick and tired of their crap.
Debbie Schlussel on December 1, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Only for the present; until the unspeakable atrocities are forgotten and rationalized. Gauging public opinion of the moment is one the jihadists’ major strengths, and one of our major weaknesses.

Nichevo on December 1, 2008 at 4:04 PM

If the Deobandis or the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust issues a statement repudiating the idea that Muslims must fight (in various ways) to impose Islamic law upon believers and may in some circumstances legitimately kill unbelievers, I will happily retract these words.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 3:27 PM

From the Jama Masjid website:

JMUF has decided to organize an International Conference against terrorism in May 2007 by inviting religious leaders, scholars and media personnel from twenty five countries to discuss and highlight the challenges which the world is facing today; prepare a White Paper on terrorism to tackle the problem by addressing basic and fundamental issues; and pronouncing an International Declaration against terrorism…

Being an active part of the biggest secular democracy of the world, JMUF understands its responsibilities and wants to show the whole world the role our Great Nation is playing not only against terrorism but also in determining its solution.

Also:

Rishi Patanjali described peace as the great vow and foremost spiritual discipline, which Truth-seekers must follow strictly and without fail. This extends to harm of all kinds caused by one’s thoughts, words and deeds–including injury to the natural environment. Even the intent to injure, even violence committed in a dream, is a violation of ahinsa.

Muslims (submitters to the will of God) and terrorism are the two poles apart. Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, irrespective of the cause – religious, political or social beliefs.

The Deobandis have issued a fatwa against terrorism.

You know, I’ve often seen commenters on this site take moderate Muslims to task for failing to speak out against the extremists. But when a Muslim group does speak out forcefully (as the Jama Masjid trust has done), their actions are dismissed as dishonest or irrelevant. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

Whatever you feel about the tenets of Islam itself, you should recognize that it is an unambiguously positive development when an influential Muslim group denounces terrorism. Islam is not vanishing off the face of the Earth any time soon. What we can hope for is that extremist interpretations are increasingly sidelined And we can contribute to this by encouraging the forces of moderation when they try to wrest control of their religion, rather than sniping at them.

Jazzman on December 1, 2008 at 4:16 PM

Jazzman,

With respect, you’re assuming in all this that what the Deobandis mean by “terrorism” is what we mean by “terrorism.”

It ain’t necessarily so. See here:

This condemnation of terrorism by Dar ul-Uloom Deoband has gotten — not unexpectedly — a lot of enthusiastic media attention, and yet — also not unexpectedly — the more one looks at this, the less there is to see. Marisol already noted here the chief problems with this declaration: “The question of when and whether it is legitimate to use violence to further Islamic causes is left untouched. The other is the definition of innocents. We’re expected to supply our own cultural definition of innocents and non-combatants, and assume that their definition does not differ.”

Exactly so. But when the document itself condemns all terrorism, without explaining what it considers terrorism to be, and then condemns “state-sponsored terrorism” in “Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan,” as well as “in Bosnia and various South American countries,” conspicuously absent from this list is any terrorism of which Muslims are the perpetrators. People get impatient with me when I respond to Muslim condemnations of terrorism by asking, “Yes, but what do they mean by terrorism?,” but this is precisely the question that needs to be clarified. Why? Consider the Hamas TV program for children just last week, in which a character said: “Assud, we are not terrorists. All we want is to get our beloved homeland, Palestine, back. We want all of Palestine to be ours. We are not terrorists…” And Assud the Jihad Rabbit replied: “They are the terrorists.” This is not just kid-show fare. This is standard bedrock assumption in many areas of the Islamic world. And consequently, if the Deobandis really want to come out against jihad terrorism, they need to specify that. Otherwise their condemnation stands only as a condemnation of various actions by Western countries in defense against the global jihadists, and does nothing to repudiate those jihadists, or their jihad, at all.

There is more at the link, should you wish to get into specifics.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Jazzman:

And from one of the statements you quote above:

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, irrespective of the cause – religious, political or social beliefs.

Quite so. But who is innocent? Here is British Muslim leader Anjem Choudary explaining that no non-Muslim can possibly be innocent, because all are renegades from the truth of Islam.

Am I saying that the Jama Masjid feels the same way? Absolutely not. But since the question of who is innocent is what is disputed in the Islamic world, not the question of whether or not it is permissible to kill innocent people, that is what moderate Muslims need to clarify: that by “innocent people” they mean, say, Chabad House residents in Mumbai, or office workers in the World Trade Center on 9/11/01.

And if they do not explain what they mean by “innocent,” their statement is useless to stop jihadists from killing people whom they don’t regard as innocent, no matter what the good intentions may have been of the people issuing the statement.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Robert,

The website I linked to includes specific examples of what the Jama Masjid Forum considers under the label “terrorism”, and it’s quite clear that they’re not excluding jihadism. They mention Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen’s terrorist attacks in Bangladesh, the 9/11 attacks, the attacks on the Indian parliament, and terrorism by Muslim groups in Kashmir.

It’s true that there is a conspicuous absence of any mention of Middle Eastern terrorist groups and attacks on Israel. But these are Indian groups, and they are understandably focused on terrorism in their back yard. It is at least clear that they are not completely ignoring terrorism perpetrated by Muslims.

I’m not claiming the Deobandis are perfect allies. Their clerics have made incendiary anti-Israel and anti-US statements in the past. But they also appear to be opposed to radical Islamism, and all I am saying is that they should be encouraged on that front. After all, they influence millions of Muslims.

Jazzman on December 1, 2008 at 4:43 PM

Whatever you feel about the tenets of Islam itself, you should recognize that it is an unambiguously positive development when an influential Muslim group denounces terrorism.

Here is one word for it : TAQUIYYA

http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm

Islam is a religion of peace as much as a hooker is a virgin!

macncheez on December 1, 2008 at 5:02 PM

Jazzman

Apologies — I haven’t followed the link to the Jama Masjid. My remarks were focused on the Deobandis, whom I don’t trust one bit. They’re “opposed to radical Islamism”? They’re the primary ideological force behind the Taliban!

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 5:02 PM

Speaking of disguises, here is why one them stood out and got captured
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/BHargrove1218/Humor/Untitled.jpg

macncheez on December 1, 2008 at 5:30 PM

Jazzman:

They mention Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen’s terrorist attacks in Bangladesh, the 9/11 attacks, the attacks on the Indian parliament, and terrorism by Muslim groups in Kashmir.

I finally had a chance to go to their site, and I looked around for this but didn’t find it. Can you please point me to it? In fact, all I found was news about the Deobandi fatwa against terrorism, which I find duplicitous for the reasons I stated above and at the Jihad Watch link above.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 5:31 PM

Robert,

Perhaps instead of “radical Islamism” I should have said “militant jihadism”. There is no doubt that the Deobandis are an extremely regressive and puritanical sect of Islam, and I certainly have no affection for them. What I was suggesting is that we shouldn’t be constantly second-guessing them when they make statements condemning terrorism. From what I understand, while the Taliban’s ideological roots are in the Darul Uloom, they were much closer to the more radical Deobandi branches in Pakistan than to their counterparts in India. But perhaps you are right that I am giving them too much credit.

Still, your distrust of Deobandis need not spill over to all Indian Muslims. I am not aware if the Jama Masjid trust has any particular sectarian affiliation, but since they are not North Indian, I would assume they are not Deobandis.

Jazzman on December 1, 2008 at 5:43 PM

Jazzman:

What I was suggesting is that we shouldn’t be constantly second-guessing them when they make statements condemning terrorism.

Why not? When all that they identify as the terrorism they are condemning are actions by the U.S. and Israel, I’m supposed to be reassured by this?

Still, your distrust of Deobandis need not spill over to all Indian Muslims.

It didn’t.

Robert Spencer on December 1, 2008 at 5:52 PM

Muslim freak pie:

1) Get pig trough.
2) line the bottom of trough with gay porn.
3) toss said Muslim freak (buck nekid) in trough- face down ( so he/she can see where their going as well as get an eye full of ” dastardly darin” and “pals and palies”.)

4) place favorite piece of muslim freak fiction in muslim freak butt crack.

5) A line of 15 of our best in uniform, who each have drank five gallons of water- can take turns pee’ing on said muslim freak.

6) cover said freaks body with a bunch straight porn.

7) Top off with GW taking a giant dump on top, for garnish and decoration purposes of course.

Handel on December 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM

Even if it’s just PR it is a good thing-maybe it will give more moderate Muslims the courage to stand up. I understand Mr. Spencer’s concerns, as well as our wish to support moderate Muslims. Of course, we cannot accept anything blindly so Mr. Spencer provides valuable information.

Trust but verify.

PattyJ on December 1, 2008 at 9:37 PM

Rishi Patanjali described peace as the great vow and foremost spiritual discipline, which Truth-seekers must follow strictly and without fail. This extends to harm of all kinds caused by one’s thoughts, words and deeds–including injury to the natural environment. Even the intent to injure, even violence committed in a dream, is a violation of ahinsa.

The Deobandis have issued a fatwa against terrorism.

Jazzman on December 1, 2008 at 4:16 PM

How’s that going so far?

logis on December 2, 2008 at 6:27 AM

Buy your ammo from IMI.

trl on December 2, 2008 at 9:35 AM

I just hope he wasn’t waterboarded. The horror. The horror.

TexasDan on December 1, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Bud, I doubt if many people here in India would even consider waterboarding to be torture.

Interrogation of terrorists captured in Jammu and Kashmir starts with a nice beating to warm them up. That is followed by a slow and gentle manicure where individual nails are ripped out. Then you have the deluxe package where their genitals are “stimulated” with 440 volts. And finally, if said terrorist is especially evil, there are always nails that need to be hammered home.

We’re not squeamish that way …

Jester on December 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM