Mumbai massacre, day three: Two Americans, five Jewish hostages dead

posted at 2:30 pm on November 28, 2008 by Allahpundit

The standoff at the Jewish center ends predictably, with the rabbi and his wife — both from New York — gunned down. Two other Americans, a father and his 13-year-old daughter visiting on a meditational retreat, were also killed; no word yet on whether they were hit by crossfire or singled out and executed. I’ve heard total death tolls as high as 160 but there’s more to come: Unbelievably, the Hotel Taj still isn’t secure, with one room now controlled by the military having yielded as many as 12 bodies.

What’s it like inside? The Telegraph sets an ominous scene, especially in light of the point raised yesterday about Indian security being infamous for shooting haphazardly in close combat:

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

The black-clad commando said it had been impossible to differentiate between dead bodies, the injured and people simply pressing themselves to the floor in terror.

“When an exchange of fire takes place in darkness and there are bodies strewn all over and blood all over, you’re actually not looking who is injured or killed,” he said. “You’re just looking for someone with lots of weapons on him.”

Criticism of the army’s already piling up — read the Telegraph for a sample, including an account of how reporters were able to sneak into the lobby of the Trident Hotel while fighting was still going on — but they were outflanked before the shooting began. According to the Times, jihadis checked into “control rooms” at the hotel in advance, presumably to stash weapons and coordinate the attack. Sounds like they knew the terrain cold, too:

“The terrorists were well-informed about the layout of both the Taj Mahal Palace and the Oberoi Trident. It’s absolutely certain that these men had done a survey of the hotel interiors before the strike on Wednesday night,” the Marcos’ commandant said.

The terrorists even knew which room had the closed-circuit television cameras, which would give them a clear view of the alleys and lobbies of the entire Taj, and reached and captured the room before the commandos did. “The terrorists hurled grenades the moment commandos neared the CCTV room and it could not be accessed because of the smoke and fire that followed,” he said.

MSNBC was touting a report from ITN earlier about rooms at the Taj having been wired with explosives. I can’t find a link online, but given the amount of planning it may be that that was also done in advance, in anticipation of the military siege. More from Rediff:

IB sources told rediff.com that two teams had checked into the hotels four days before the attack, and used the time to stash away ammunition there. During their stay as guests in the hotel they also thoroughly studied its layout. On the day of the attack, an unspecified number of attackers joined them. The IB says in all there were 20 fidayeen who took part in the terror attack that terrorised Mumbai.

It is also said that while a certain number of the terrorists had already entered Mumbai and taken shelter in the two hotels, 12 more persons came into Mumbai through the sea-route. While initially it was suggested that the attackers came in from Karachi, investigators are also probing claims made by fishermen in Kerala that a ship unknown to their parts was sighted. The IB is now probing whether this was the mother ship that brought in the attackers.

Supposedly there was another boat packed with ammunition waiting so they could resupply, but how they were planning to get to that after the fighting started isn’t clear to me. Also unclear is how they managed to stay alert enough for 48 hours to keep shooting and avoid capture. I remember a passage from David Bellavia’s book about fighting the Mahdi Army where he talked about jihadis tweaking before battle to make sure they’d keep going on pure adrenaline even if they were wounded. Maybe there was more than food in those backpacks.

The good-ish news is that consensus is starting to settle on the culprit being Lashkar e-Taiba, a group I mentioned in my first post on this and the prime suspect in the Mumbai bombings two years ago. Indian intel claims that three captured jihadis are members and that one of them’s confessed. If you read only one thing I’ve linked here, make it Roggio’s background piece on LeT and what kind of logistics were needed to pull this off:

In several of those attacks, an Indian Mujahideen operative who calls himself “Arbi Hindi” e-mailed the media to claim responsibility. Arbi Hindi’s real name is Abdul Subhan Qureshi, an Indian national who is believed to be behind many of the recent terror attacks inside India. Qureshi, a computer expert, is beleived to have trained hundreds of recruits to conduct terror attacks in India. He is often called India’s Osama bin Laden.

Indian intelligence believes the Indian Mujahideen is a front group created by the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Harkat ul Jihad al Islami. The Indian Mujahideen was created to confuse investigators and cover the tracks of the Students’ Islamic Movement of India, or SIMI, a radical Islamist movement, according to Indian intelligence.

The Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Harkat ul Jihad al Islami receive support from Pakistan’s Inter-Service Intelligence to destabilize India and wage war in Kashmir. Both of these terror groups are local al Qaeda affiliates in Pakistan and conduct attacks in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. The Indian “occupation” of Kashmir helped spawn these groups.

If you’re wondering why the head of ISI is on his way to India, that last paragraph might offer a clue. One other ominous detail in closing: The Daily Mail claims that at least two and possibly as many as seven jihadis are British-born Pakistanis, and may even be from the same area as the London bombers. Remember, Rashid Rauf, the alleged AQ mastermind of the London airline plot who recently got a special delivery from a U.S. drone, was also British — and according to the Mail, “Security sources believe that at the time of his death Rauf had been planning a major attack on Western targets.” Maybe this was it and they took him out hoping to disrupt the plot or maybe they just got lucky, but having Brits in the mix does add an international flavor that’s unusual for Lashkar as far as I know.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

The standoff at the Jewish center ends predictably, with the rabbi and his wife — both from New York — gunned down. Two other Americans, a father and his 13-year-old daughter visiting on a meditational retreat

Wouldn’t that be 4 Americans?

upinak on November 28, 2008 at 2:36 PM

The big bad brave warriors for allah have killed … a 13 year old girl. Sooooooo tough, so braaaaaave! Allahu ackbaaaaar! ALALALALALALAAAAA!!!

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 2:37 PM

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

Get these guys a flashlight, quick! I’ve seen footage of them using flashlights, what’s the deal? Get them some NVGs and glow sticks!

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM

What’s it going to take for certain segments of the world population to acknowledge that this is nothing more than evil? These are not “freedom fighters”. These are freaks.

capitalist piglet on November 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM

capitalist piglet on November 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM

When people stop being lazy. And do you think that is going to stop?

upinak on November 28, 2008 at 2:41 PM

Supposedly there was another boat packed with ammunition waiting so they could resupply …

HA! Did these idiots actually think they were gonna live long enough to ‘resupply’??? HAHAHA! Terrorist-morons! Burn in hell, Achmed!

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 2:43 PM

Bomb Bomb Bomb Pakistan.
Woops, we’re firing Hellfires into it.
Invade Pakistan. Richard Clarke actually predicted this in The Atlantic.

HotAirJosef on November 28, 2008 at 2:44 PM

Israeli officials told the Jerusalem Post that India’s refusal of its offer to send commandos had put the lives of a rabbi and his family in danger.

I’m sure the Israeli commandos would have at least had nightvision

lodge on November 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM

Only 20-24 shooters? If so, they knew how to maximize their leverage. Their intelligence gathering and preparation has sort of a military background flavor, doesn’t it? So, are there about 10 live terrorists in custody now?

a capella on November 28, 2008 at 2:50 PM

I remember a passage from David Bellavia’s book about fighting the Mahdi Army where he talked about jihadis tweaking before battle to make sure they’d keep going on pure adrenaline even if they were wounded.

“House to House”. Great book! Except it wasn’t the Mooks, it was the sunni terrorists in Fallujah vs. the u.S. Army. There’s an even better book about Fallujah called “We Were One” by Chris O’Donnell, this time about the U.S. Marines. He too says the enemy was all jazzed up on drugs and that our guys had to put several rounds into them before they’d go down. (And the fact that we use 5.56 doesn’t help).

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Invade Pakistan. Richard Clarke actually predicted this in The Atlantic.

HotAirJosef on November 28, 2008 at 2:44 PM

Could be. It is a shame The Atlantic isn’t read more,…why do you suppose that is? Powerglutes and an obsession with Trig Palin don’t exactly create credibility, do they?

a capella on November 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Where is Jimmy Carter when we need him? With a wave of his hand, a Nobel Peace Prize receipient like Jimmy Could sooth the troubled waters and bring order to this troubled corner of the world.

I bet he’s off drunk somewhere.

Venusian Visitor on November 28, 2008 at 2:57 PM

seven jihadis are British-born Pakistanis

Its really time for the West, and America in particular, to look at the whole dual citizen thing…

If you can’t grab your Holy Book, and swear allegiance to ONE country, than you should not be a citizen of that country… we need to get past the whole dual thing…

Especialy when we have a soon to be sitting President, who may be an American/Indonesian/British Citizen (technicly).

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Hear, hear.

Unfortunately, we have a dual/triple citizen about to become President and a rush to give dual citizenship to every illegal in the country – as if the citizenships they hold doesn’t matter …

We are just, plain screwed.

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2008 at 3:04 PM

Yep, screwed. Islam is radical Islam. It’s determined to take us out. It’s us or them. They have faith and will, we have – Jimmy Carter.

Just plain screwed.

Venusian Visitor on November 28, 2008 at 3:08 PM

Must be confusing and embarrassing for poor England to have some of the victims and some of the perps holding the same passport. Must be confusing and embarrassing for America to probably have to come out and cover for Pakistan because it’s more important to use their roads to waste lives and treasure uselessly teaching Afghan Muslims how to behave like humans and Muslims at the same time.

And nobody in the office has the least idea of what is happening or why.

Teh awesome I tell ya.

BL@KBIRD on November 28, 2008 at 3:09 PM

I’m sure the Israeli commandos would have at least had nightvision

Nightvision doesn’t work in complete darkness (that scene in Silence of the Lambs always bugged me), it needs some light to function.

Can’t really fault them for that, nightvision isn’t really meant for indoors, close-quarters combat. I can’t imagine wearing NVGs in a pitch dark hallyway, then seeing a muzzle flash 3 feet in front of me…

reaganaut on November 28, 2008 at 3:12 PM

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM

I don’t see why we shouldn’t. I am kind of tired of these people whom say I am from Canada\England\Germany etc., and when I ask about their country.. they say they haven’t lived there in some odd amount of years. Why?

We can’t be dual citizens in other countries. germany will not allow that. Belgium will allow you to be a dual citizen for another coutnry but you are not allowed to be a dual citizen in theirs. many counties are like that. Including India. All you have to do is pay 500-1000 American dollars and VIOLA you are an Indian citizen. Especially since they do not check “country of orgin”. And then people wonder why India and other 3rd world have issues.

upinak on November 28, 2008 at 3:13 PM

“The terrorists were well-informed about the layout of both the Taj Mahal Palace and the Oberoi Trident. It’s absolutely certain that these men had done a survey of the hotel interiors before the strike on Wednesday night,” the Marcos’ commandant said.

DUH!

Hindus vs Moslems coming to the big screen soon. This is going to get ugly. Personally I continue to believe there is a last straw in here somewhere, at which point the world just snaps. History is littered with pogroms.

Moderate Muslims, if they exist, had better start outing the radicals in their midst. They know who they are and the Imam leaders at the local mosque. If they remain silent they will be caught up in the maelstrom should it come.

patrick neid on November 28, 2008 at 3:15 PM

patrick neid on November 28, 2008 at 3:15 PM

Yep, if the Moslems cannot Police themselves and be good citizens in the WESTERN sense… its time for them to go back to the Middle East.

Equal Rights, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech (including dis’n Allah)… if you can’t abide by our way of life, THEN GET OUT!

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 3:21 PM

…international flavor that’s unusual for Lashkar as far as I know.

It’s only unusual insofar as the particular axe they’re most inclined to grind is the India/Kashmir one, yet they made a point of targeting Brits and Americans. Given that, I don’t think they hit India just because it’s a relatively soft and convenient target. They hit India because it’s their primary target, but they figured they could bag some hated Americans and Brits along the way.

flipflop on November 28, 2008 at 3:24 PM

Moderate Muslims, if they exist, had better start outing the radicals in their midst. They know who they are and the Imam leaders at the local mosque. If they remain silent they will be caught up in the maelstrom should it come.

patrick neid on November 28, 2008 at 3:15 PM

You’ll forgive me if I begin to believe that a radical Muslim is one that wants to lop off my head while a moderate Muslim is one who’s happy to just watch.

flipflop on November 28, 2008 at 3:27 PM

… if you can’t abide by our way of life, THEN GET OUT! – Romeo

That makes perfect sense to us, but to them it’s ‘oppression’. If you don’t let them oppress you, then you are oppressing them. It’s wacked, I know, but that’s how they see it. They are supremacists with an inferiority complex. You should bow down before them but you won’t so they seethe, it’s a rage, an anger and a hatred we could never understand. They want to rule the world and you’re getting in their way … how DARE you? How offensive of you to do that! I KEEEEL YOU!

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 3:28 PM

A secret plot by Prince Charles?

Maybe we should be invading Great Britain?

Kini on November 28, 2008 at 3:31 PM

They hit India because it’s their primary target … – fLIP

They hit India because they want to start a war between India and Pakistan, that way they will have more freedom of movement on the Paki border with Afghanistan. WE are their main target, once America is defeated, the rest of the world will beg to be first in line to convert and join the Caliphate.

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM

Could be. It is a shame The Atlantic isn’t read more,…why do you suppose that is? Powerglutes and an obsession with Trig Palin don’t exactly create credibility, do they?

a capella on November 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM

You just named why I quit checking them out from the library.

HotAirJosef on November 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM

They hit India because they want to start a war between India and Pakistan, that way they will have more freedom of movement on the Paki border with Afghanistan. WE are their main target, once America is defeated, the rest of the world will beg to be first in line to convert and join the Caliphate.

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM

The most powerful weapon these medieval primitives have is civilized societies’ restraint. But at some point, we will have to decide that this cult called Islam cannot exist in a civilized world.

iconoclast on November 28, 2008 at 3:47 PM

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Hey, I’ve got “dual-citizenship”; born in the US to Canadian parents (my Dad was a student at the time). I lived in Canada most of my life, but served in the US Army. I also vote in both country’s elections (Conservative in Canada, Republican in the US).

Frozen Tex on November 28, 2008 at 3:48 PM

I also vote in both country’s elections (Conservative in Canada, Republican in the US). – Tex

Man, I wish WE had a Conservative Party! haha

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 3:53 PM

I don’t see why we shouldn’t. I am kind of tired of these people whom say I am from Canada\England\Germany etc., and when I ask about their country.. they say they haven’t lived there in some odd amount of years. Why?

Being resident in another country is not the same trhing as dual citizenship. In any case the underlying problem is dual, or conflicting, allegiance. A Muslims with only an American passport dedicated to striking the Great Satan is not preferable to someone with dual Canadian/American citizenship who commutes back and forth over the northern border.

aengus on November 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM

1. Wasn’t stuff like this supposed to stop when Obama was elected? Sort of like when General David Dinkins was elected mayor of NYC and the next day,why, even the air smelled better in NYC!! Same with America after Obama was elected.

2. Why no comment from Obama on what’s happening? Oh, that’s right, he’s fixing the economy right now as he has said in all the press conferences that he’s had the last two weeks as acting President. First things first.

I bet he shittin’ his britches about right now about this and other stuff that the Bush folks are telling him.
Obama DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE!!!

dragonash on November 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM

And lest we forget: Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, 29, and his wife, Rivka, 28. Murdered by Muslim terrorists, 11/26/08. May they rest in the bosom of Abraham.

warbaby on November 28, 2008 at 4:31 PM

UPDATE: RELATIONS between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan were under severe strain last night as a terrorist from the co-ordinated attacks on Mumbai confessed he was Pakistani, saying the onslaught was carried out by the al-Qa’ida-linked Lashkar-e-Toiba, which has links to Pakistan’s premier spy agency, the ISI. The confession — made under interrogation by Indian intelligence agencies — came as Indian forces ended the siege of the Oberoi hotel and a Jewish centre …

But don’t you dare point any fingers!

Also, the DOW is up 1,227 points! Terrorism is now good for the stock market?

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 4:33 PM

Hey, I’ve got “dual-citizenship”; born in the US to Canadian parents (my Dad was a student at the time). I lived in Canada most of my life, but served in the US Army. I also vote in both country’s elections (Conservative in Canada, Republican in the US).

Frozen Tex on November 28, 2008 at 3:48 PM

Um, I know HERE its illegal to vote here unless you are a resident… are you therefore a resident of both countries?

And if, for some reason, Canada and America had problems, where would your loyalty lie?

Sorry, the whole dual citizen thing is bunk… if you are a citizen of America, you should NOT be voting in someone elses election… if you live somewhere else (and are a citizen there) you should NOT be voting in the American election.

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 5:06 PM

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

What, they don’t have NVGs?

njcommuter on November 28, 2008 at 5:09 PM

reaganaut on November 28, 2008 at 3:12 PM

…spoken like a man who knows what he’s talkin’ about….

…yup…the bad guys — and, once and for all, they are bad guys — were prepared…which is easy to do when you know when and where you’re going to attack….

…while the Indian military and police are having to grope about…that’s asymetrical warfare for ya…one side has all the information, while the other has all the responsibility….

…mind you, it’ll be reported in such a way as to make the Indians, who’re “infamous for shooting haphazardly in close combat”, look like a the Keystone Kops…and make the bad guys all look like Allah’s gift to unconventional warfare…a’la Tet ’68…it’ll be forty years until, as with Tet ’68, that we find that the “brave insurgents” were actually gutted — the Viet Cong were handed their asses — and the good guys (in this case the Indians) were quite effective indeed….

…but, then, in the modern journalistic environment, it’s all about appearance, isn’t it….

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 5:19 PM

Bomb Bomb Bomb Pakistan.
Woops, we’re firing Hellfires into it.
Invade Pakistan. Richard Clarke actually predicted this in The Atlantic.

HotAirJosef on November 28, 2008 at 2:44 PM

I love armchair Generals.

BallisticBob on November 28, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Puritan,

Perfect analogy to Tet

warbaby on November 28, 2008 at 5:25 PM

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 5:06 PM

…I’m not a fan of “dual citizenship”, either…and there’re many in the US who can and do claim it…in some countries it’s easy to get citizenship…I heard once that Ireland would give you a passport if you could prove Irish grandparents in the so-called Irish “diaspora”…there’s quite an industry in ferrying American Jews to vote in Israel…and, of course, there’s the whole Mexican citizens in the US voting in Mexican elections…and Mexican politicians campaigning cross-border…and making noises about their “constituents” up here, etc….

…so it’s a sticky one, politically….

Here’s something…about the first third of the Oath of Allegiance we expect folks to take when they’re made citizens:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen…(emphasis added for clarity)

…which makes for an odd logic-puzzle…you renounce your citizenship in another country, but still vote there…while there’re a lot of countries who permit you to do that (we, gladly, do not…knowingly….), it does sort of imply that you really haven’t renounced or abjured all allegiance to that pesky foreign potentate, state, etc….

…it’s sort of a “what I can get away with” situation….

…as to the veteran who’s “dual”, there’s this:

…that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law….

…so, thanks to those “dualies” who serve…these’re tough times…we need ya….

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 5:32 PM

Perfect analogy to Tet

warbaby on November 28, 2008 at 5:25 PM

…we don’t aim for perfect this side of Divine Judgment, and don’t expect it…but it’s a pretty clear parallel…that I’ve been making to anyone who’ll listen since this whole bloody mess started….

…but, thank you….

…those who don’t think history relevant are condemned to have it come up and smack ‘em in their smug faces whenever it wants to do so….

…we’re gonna see some South Asian and BBC Cronkites condemn the military of what is becoming a technologically advanced, increasingly pluralistic, democratic and fairly free nation condemned as bumblers and villains…and once again see the murderous forces of the ol’ Religion O’ Peace portrayed sympathetically by a press that’s really jonesin’ for “change”…not realizing that violent “change” is costly, bloody, and often happens to them first….

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 5:39 PM

I love armchair Generals.

BallisticBob on November 28, 2008 at 5:20 PM

…well…I’m an armchair strategist, myself…but, then, I was an actual sergreant first class once upon a time (when dinosaurs ruled the earth), and can recognize that, while Mr. HAJoseph presents a rather overly-determined opinion, he’s not far wrong….

…while occasionally useful over the last seven years, the Pakis are fast wearing out their welcome…the country is a real can of worms…and I rush immediately to apologize to worms for the comparison….

…we let evil hide in the jungles of Cambodia and Laos…why let it hide in the caves of Pakistan?

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 5:43 PM

My Holy Father, God, Creator, please give all who have died Your hand to comfort them and their family. My faith says, You will deal with these monsters.
L

letget on November 28, 2008 at 6:23 PM

As Dick Cheney (I think) said, “Just because you’ve forgotten about terrorism doesn’t mean terrorists have forgotten about you.

Ace of Spades Headquarters

Hilts on November 28, 2008 at 6:41 PM

I wonder if the Mumbai murders signal that the end of Pakistan, as we know it, is near.

It looks like the Pakistani government is really trying to avert a war with India, since such wars do not go well for Pakistan. If Pakistan were to suffer a significant military defeat, say a successful Indian march to Qetta, a large chunk of SW Pakistan could easily become Baluchistan (the country). The NWFA and Tribal Areas could easily formally break away, since they are heavily Pashtun.

The remnants of Pakistan would be essentially the Indus River valley. This result might solve many problems, even a few for Pakistan. It might then be possible to retrieve the Pakistani nuclear items, with little objection from anyone. I think that China will remain silent.

A nuclear exchange might not happen. The Indian device works, the Pakistani device seems to not work, or not work well. India does not need to use nuclear weapons to defeat Pakistan; are the Pakistanis willing to risk retaliation for using an unreliable weapon?

India might stage a surgical strike to remove as many Pakistani weapons as possible. It makes sense, but and there’s no reason to risk letting the Pakistanis (or whoever gets control) drop one from a civilian airliner or float one over on a ship.

Who knew that one or more militant madrassas in Pakistan, and an assortment of Pakistanis, educated / born in Britain and living a middle- / upper-middle-class life, would be the trigger? Look at the pictures of the terrorists: they prove the “jihadism-is-caused-by-poverty” to be a lie.

I suspect that the ISI knew of this plan and thought it implausible, the result of adolescents watching too much “Mission: Impossible” re-runs and Bond movies. As soon as anyone, not a terrorist, gets killed, the terrorists will be killed, maybe captured. What government would take such a non-disavowable action?

But perhaps the ISI simply humored someone, expecting that eventually someone else would put a stop to this idiocy. How many of the ISI watched the events unfold, and then wondered how this was ever considered, how to get control, make things stop, … … find a way to remove any and all links and cover their asses?

I expect, over the next year or so, to see a large number of madrassas, clerics and other activists in Pakistan meet with accidents not covered by their insurance: a localized earthquake that shakes the building to the ground (igniting the remnants from one or more kerosene lamps); a telephone pole that suddenly steps in front of a cleric’s speeding car; cellphones that attract large falling objects; one’s head now comes off with one’s turban (that’s what the pictures will show); all really unforeseeable events.

And not one Hellfire involved.

Arbalest on November 28, 2008 at 7:31 PM

… if you can’t abide by our way of life, THEN GET OUT!
Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 3:21 PM

Our way of life is to Muslims like a sweaty, warm blooded, naked human is to a swarm of hungry mosquitos.

Your apparent frustration is wholly understandable but the Muslims are not going to leave voluntarily and it will take more than shouting to be rid of them.

YiZhangZhe on November 28, 2008 at 7:48 PM

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

Get these guys a flashlight, quick! I’ve seen footage of them using flashlights, what’s the deal? Get them some NVGs and glow sticks!

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM

You know I can’t help but think of the bravery of these Indian troops crawling through the darkness trying to save the hostages. How horrible and terrifying it must have been. Thank God for brave men such as these. Yes night vision goggles would have been of great assistance but they didn’t have the benefit of them. They risked their lives attempting to save others. They deserve the respect of all of us. Would we have been willing to do the same?

kanda on November 28, 2008 at 8:11 PM

Um, I know HERE its illegal to vote here unless you are a resident… are you therefore a resident of both countries?

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 5:06 PM

You don’t know what you are talking about. A US citizen permanently resident overseas can vote in their last state of residence. I vote in Connecticut, and I haven’t lived there for close to 30 years.

jic on November 28, 2008 at 8:23 PM

Would we have been willing to do the same?

Yes. It’s what America, and every other civilized country does.

It would not surprise me in the least if every one of the Indian troops was titanically angered by what these Muslims are/were doing in Mumbai, and weren’t even considering any other action than to go in immediately, kill the terrorists and rescue all hostages.

Arbalest on November 28, 2008 at 8:27 PM

Arbalest on November 28, 2008 at 7:31 PM

You may have outdated information. India sees its nuclear arsenel as a deterrant. Pakistan sees it nuclear arsenel as the means to first strike and defeat Indias conventional forces. War between those two countries would be devistating to both.

South Asia Monitor 14 October 2008

Pakistan’s nuclear forces: a gradual consolidation

Gurmeet Kanwal
Unlike India’s nuclear weapons and missile development programme that was completely indigenous, Pakistan received considerable external help and, in turn, has itself been a proliferator. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons – warheads and delivery systems – are India-centric and have been acquired with Chinese and North Korean help. While India follows a “credible minimum deterrence” doctrine and has declared a “no first use” policy, Pakistan follows a “first use” nuclear doctrine and seeks to convince India that it has a low nuclear threshold. India’s nuclear weapons are political weapons whose sole purpose is to deter the use and threat of use of nuclear weapons against India. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are its first line of defence and it aims to use them to negate India’s conventional military superiority.

Pakistan has been testing its ballistic and nuclear-capable cruise missiles at the rate of one every two months on average. It is apparently engaged in improving the accuracy of its North Korean origin No Dong and Taepo Dong missiles and of the Chinese missiles M-9 and M-11. The Table below shows Pakistan’s nuclear delivery systems, their approximate ranges and the status of development. In addition, the air-launched cruise missile Raad (Hatf-VIII) was successfully tested in May 2008. This ALCM is claimed to be nuclear capable and has a range of 350 km.

Assuming that Pakistani scientists require 5 to 7 kilogrammes of plutonium to make one warhead, and 20 to 25 kilogrammes of HEU to produce a bomb, then Pakistan would have accumulated enough fissile material to be able to manufacture between 70 and 115 nuclear weapons by the end of 2006.” It can be deduced that Pakistan is moving quickly to close the nuclear warhead quantity gap with India and may even overtake it.

I did not include the table….

kanda on November 28, 2008 at 8:58 PM

Kanda:

India sees its nuclear arsenel as a deterrant. Pakistan sees it nuclear arsenel as the means to first strike and defeat Indias conventional forces.”

Pakistan is targeting military, industrial and energy-production installations, and cities. This is assumed and expected.

I’ve seen similar data to that you posted; the usual assumption is that the Pakistani weapons really work. I’m inclined to think they work well enough.

Much more importantly, has Pakistan ever successfully tested a nuclear device? My recollection is “no”, the last test fizzled. Until one works, Pakistan is in a weak position. Maybe Pakistan can deliver a 10-15kT city-eraser, but maybe it will be a 1kT fizzle which will do little beyond give India the needed excuse to turn the top 5 Pakistani cities into ash. Pakistan may be unable to do the same to India.

My points are that 1) because of the uncertainty, Pakistan is in a bad position today, and 2) the Mumbai murders might give India sufficient reason to attack Pakistan (and solve a number of problems). Given the current reality of Pakistan, 3) the Baluchis are likely to secede if given a chance, and 4) the Tribal areas might be able to throw off Islamabad control. 5) Whoever thought that the Mumbai murder spree was a good idea, miscalculated badly, and 6) many heads will be on display as a result.

Arbalest on November 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM

You don’t know what you are talking about. A US citizen permanently resident overseas can vote in their last state of residence. I vote in Connecticut, and I haven’t lived there for close to 30 years.

jic on November 28, 2008 at 8:23 PM

thankyou for making my point for me…

Just how in the heck do you know anything about local politics… or follow the local elections… or know whats going on localy?

Please, feel free to do what you wish, but the fact you can still vote there with not living there for THIRTY YEARS is simply ludicrous.

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM

You don’t know what you are talking about. A US citizen permanently resident overseas can vote in their last state of residence. I vote in Connecticut, and I haven’t lived there for close to 30 years.

jic on November 28, 2008 at 8:23 PM
thankyou for making my point for me…

Just how in the heck do you know anything about local politics… or follow the local elections… or know whats going on localy?

Please, feel free to do what you wish, but the fact you can still vote there with not living there for THIRTY YEARS is simply ludicrous.

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM

So American citizens living abroad give up their right to vote?

onthego on November 29, 2008 at 2:23 AM

It’s past time to play Cowboys and Muslims.

nelsonknows on November 29, 2008 at 2:38 AM

it is kinda funny (and scary and sad)to think of how Barry feels now that he is getting the facts on things and knows he will be forced to alienate his fan club etc when it comes to actual governing ….

AND the fact that he is woefully underqualified and inexperienced…….

Poor Micelle….. must be wiping tears off his face while he sucks his thumb and nods off each night.

May we survive the next four years.

John The Baptist on November 29, 2008 at 5:12 AM

Much more importantly, has Pakistan ever successfully tested a nuclear device? My recollection is “no”, the last test fizzled. Until one works, Pakistan is in a weak position. Maybe Pakistan can deliver a 10-15kT city-eraser, but maybe it will be a 1kT fizzle which will do little beyond give India the needed excuse to turn the top 5 Pakistani cities into ash. Pakistan may be unable to do the same to India.
Arbalest on November 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM

You may have seen OLD reports about Pakistan’s delivery capabilities which are now resolved.

However according to the Broadband Seismic Data Collection Center Reports:

Pakistan conducted 2-5 underground nuclear tests during the morning hours of 28 May, 1998. The Kyrgyzstan Seismic Network (KNET) recorded one test with an estimated magnitude of 4.8. Reports on the yield of the blast vary. This link will take you to a page that shows how kiloton yields can be measured. Vertical components for the first Pakistani test can be viewed here.

An additional test was carried out on the morning of 30 May, 1998. Estimates of the yield of this test are also variable. The second Pakistan test was obscured by aftershocks from the Ms 6.9 earthquake which occured about 30 minutes before the second test. Examination of the KNET waveform data, based on the QED location, shows no observable body waves at the predicted arrival times. Using the first Pakistani explosion for calibration, the amplitude of the second Pakistani explosion is at least a factor of four smaller (0.6 magnitude units) for it not to be observed in the aftershock data.

Three stations (AAK, CHM, TKM2) recorded the first Pakistani test. 6-8 stations recorded the Afghanistan earthquake-aftershock-predicted arrivals for 2nd Pakistani nuclear test sequence.

kanda on November 29, 2008 at 5:45 AM

They hit India because they want to start a war between India and Pakistan, that way they will have more freedom of movement on the Paki border with Afghanistan. WE are their main target, once America is defeated, the rest of the world will beg to be first in line to convert and join the Caliphate.

Tony737 on November 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM

Sorry bud, you’re wrong. India has been fighting Islamic terrorism back from the time when your boys in the CIA were funding and training them to be more lethal. America has screwed up plenty on the war on terror, and still does with the patronage and aid to Pakistan.

Jester on November 29, 2008 at 6:33 AM

I think the thing we as Americans should fear most about this attack is its “success”. A handful of extremist armed with what could be described as “minimal weapon systems”, i.e., machine guns and explosives, was able to inflict this amount of damage and generate this amount of coverage. Mighty big bang for your buck if you’re the terrorist.

Given this success don’t be surprised if this style of attack isn’t emulated elsewhere in the world.

Just another reason to get your Concealed Carry permit.

Yes rifle/explosive vs. handgun isn’t a fair fight, but at least it is a fight.

SPIFF1669 on November 29, 2008 at 7:47 AM

Just how in the heck do you know anything about local politics… or follow the local elections… or know whats going on localy?

Please, feel free to do what you wish, but the fact you can still vote there with not living there for THIRTY YEARS is simply ludicrous.

Romeo13 on November 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Actually, Connecticut only allows voters who are permanently resident overseas to vote in Federal elections. I’m not choosing local officials (other states do allow that). Are you saying that I’m incapable of assessing presidential candidates, or following house and senate voting records, just because I’m not currently resident in the state? I’m glad that I have your permission to do what I wish, but I’m even more glad that it isn’t your call.

jic on November 29, 2008 at 7:47 AM

Strange, but I have not seen the story talking about what the Evil Government of India did to bring this upon themselves and how they are at fault for the terrorist attacks yet by the Media. :-)

JeffinSac on November 29, 2008 at 10:44 AM

I think any living captured terrorists should be given the same treatment that the Taliban and Al Qaeda have given to forces they have captured and kidnapped. They should be hauled out in public and given to the family members left behind from this attack. An eye for an eye-and public retribution.

Sorry maybe I am a madwoman but as the wife of an American active duty soldier for the last 23 years we have publicly witnessed the horror of these extremist groups enacted against our own. Its time they begin to feel the same fear and disgust that we feel when we see their version of “advocacy”. We will not know the long term effect of their actions for many years. As the body count climbs I pray not only for the victims of this horrible odyssey but for the future of the countries and their ability to progress in national security issues. Their targets were westerners and yet so many of the dead were Hindis. I pray the investigations reveal the guilty as soon as possible, for these two nuclear powers have longstanding tensions that could capitulate the demise of both countries.

canditaylor68 on November 29, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Strange, but I have not seen the story talking about what the Evil Government of India did to bring this upon themselves and how they are at fault for the terrorist attacks yet by the Media. :-)

JeffinSac on November 29, 2008 at 10:44 AM

Here you go (see Update IV).

jic on November 29, 2008 at 1:07 PM

I wonder what ole Joe Biden has to say about all of this.

mindhacker on November 29, 2008 at 2:18 PM