Update: Mumbai massacre still raging

posted at 10:47 am on November 27, 2008 by Allahpundit

I’ve got 20 browser tabs open to stories on different aspects of what’s happening but it’ll take too long to digest them all at once, so let’s start small and then I’ll follow with updates. For the moment, suffice it to say, they’re still at it: Indian troops are inside the hotels being held hostage and are clearing them room by room to flush out the jihadis hiding in both buildings. Terrorists are firing from the eighth floor of the Trident and at least four of them have blown themselves up inside the Taj. MSNBC was reporting new explosions in the latter building as recently as a half hour ago, which I assume is due to Indian troops stumbling upon rooms where suicide bombers are holed up. What kind of arsenal are we talking about here? IBN:

One commando was killed two others injured in the operation at Taj in which one rucksack full of plastic explosives, eight–nine loaded AK–47 magazines, large amounts of ammunition, hand grenades, detonators, batteries, wrist watches for IEDs, foreign currencies, fake credit cards, dry fruits and cash carried by the terrorists were recovered.

More than 100 people, including at least 14 cops are dead so far, but since no one knows what’s going on inside the hotels and bombs are still going off, the true death toll is anyone’s guess. A hostage released from one of the hotels reports having seen “many bodies.” Another open question is how many of the victims were or are being killed accidentally by Indian security themselves: According to Jonathan Foreman at the Corner, they’ve been known to fire wildly in these situations.

Update: A surreal scene from the Guardian as eyewitnesses describe terrorists arriving by boat.

At least some of the terrorists, said to be in their early twenties and armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, landed on the coast of Mumbai’s commercial and entertainment neighbourhood in light and fast Gemini boats, powered by small outboard motors.

These inflatable dinghies, according to Indian navy sources quoted by the Headlines Today TV news channel, were launched from a larger vessel, the MV Alfa, which arrived near Mumbai sometime yesterday and anchored offshore a distance from India’s financial capital…

By this time the vessel had left the vicinity of Mumbai. When first reported by the news channel today, the MV Alfa was said to be off the Gujarat coast and heading towards Pakistan.

The Guardian’s source reports seeing six men get off the boat. Sky News claims that there were only 12 in all, which can’t be true given how many separate attacks there were last night unless that group rendezvoused with another group that was already in the city. I saw a bulletin on IBN earlier claiming that five jihadis had been killed and nine captured, so Sky’s number is at least a little low. Or, more likely, a lot.

Update: Whodunnit? The NYT offers a melange of expert opinion suggesting (a) it’s Al Qaeda, (b) it’s definitely not Al Qaeda, (c) it’s a group with ties to Pakistan’s Lashkar e-Taiba, (d) it’s a homegrown Indian group. Hope that clears things up. The Independent makes a strong case that the answer’s (d), that the “Deccan Mujahedeen” is actually a dangerous group known as the Indian Mujahedeen acting by another name. (“A high level of sophistication has also been a hallmark of previous attacks by the Indian Mujahideen.”) Is India likely to acknowledge that if it’s true? Stratfor plays realpolitik and says no:

[T]he Indian government has two choices. First, it can simply say that the perpetrators are a domestic group. In that case, it will be held accountable for a failure of enormous proportions in security and law enforcement. It will be charged with being unable to protect the public. On the other hand, it can link the attack to an outside power: Pakistan. In that case it can hold a nation-state responsible for the attack, and can use the crisis atmosphere to strengthen the government’s internal position by invoking nationalism. Politically this is a much preferable outcome for the Indian government, and so it is the most likely course of action. This is not to say that there are no outside powers involved — simply that, regardless of the ground truth, the Indian government will claim there were…

Either way, India is under enormous pressure to respond. Therefore the events point to a serious crisis not simply between Pakistan and India, but within Pakistan as well, with the government caught between foreign powers and domestic realities. Given the circumstances, massive destabilization is possible — never a good thing with a nuclear power.

Pakistan’s already trying to defuse the situation, but too late: Sources are whispering to the Times of India that the jihadis are Pakistani nationals (“We have total clues”) and Indian PM Singh hinted darkly in his speech to the nation this morning about “external linkages.” Which isn’t to say it’s not true: Sky News claims one terrorist spoke in a Kashmiri accent and ranted about the number of Muslims killed there. But Stratfor’s right, needless to say, that this is a huge embarrassment for Indian intel (especially since it happened in Mumbai, where security is tighter because of previous bombings) and doubly so if it was planned on Indian soil.

Here’s vid of Singh’s address.


Update: As always, Jews are a special target. Eight people are reportedly being held hostage at the Mumbai Lubavitch center, although the rabbi’s two-year-old son was released. Another surreal scene:

“We heard bang-bang in the alleyway and first thought it was firecrackers. But then we heard horrible grief and a woman ran out covered in the blood of her mother. We saw two older women were shot dead while cooking dinner in their kitchens,” said Sanjay Kokate, who was a local political leader and said he was part of a self-appointed citizens police force. “We helped carry the bodies out. People have been trapped inside their apartments ever since. It’s so horrifying.”

According to Chabad’s Web site, the center offers daily prayer services and Torah classes, and is a popular hangout among Israeli tourists.

The Web site said the center is run by Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka. The couple’s two-year-old son was escorted out of the building several hours after the attack, his clothing soaked in blood, the Associated Press reported. The toddler was accompanied by a cook and another employee of the center. The Chabad Web site said the fate of Gavriel and Rivka Holtzvberg was not known.

And a tantalizing detail from the Guardian:

One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were “white”, although this could mean they were paler-skinned Indians from the country’s north.

“I went into the building late last night,” he said. “I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.

Update: Roggio aptly calls this the most significant terror attack since 9/11 and expects it’ll force a major rethink of Indian counterterror policy. What does that mean? Sadanand Dhume explains:

The litany of errors is long. Unlike their counterparts in the West, or in East Asia, India’s perpetually squabbling leaders have failed to put national security above partisan politics. The country’s antiterrorism effort is reactive and episodic rather than proactive and sustained. Its public discourse on Islam oscillates between crude anti-Muslim bigotry and mindless sympathy for largely unjustified Muslim grievance-mongering. Its failure to either charm or cow its Islamist-friendly neighbors — Pakistan and Bangladesh — reveals a limited grasp of statecraft. Finally, an inability to modernize a 150-million strong Muslim population, the second largest after Indonesia’s, has spawned a community ill-equipped to seize new economic opportunities and susceptible to militant Islam’s faith-based appeal…

In sum, the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed. When faced with fundamentalist demands, India’s democratically elected leaders have regularly preferred caving to confrontation on a point of principle. The country’s institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream. The country’s diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood. The ongoing drama in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.

Update: The Economist joins the “whodunnit?” game and leans heavily towards the theory that it was a homegrown group of Indian Muslims, quite possibly the Indian Mujahedeen. They also mention, en passant, reports from Indian troops inside the hotels that there are “bodies in many rooms.”


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AZCoyote on November 27, 2008 at 12:25 PM

+1

No one has ANY clue who- or what- Obama is. If you were to describe him as a Christian based on his past associations, words and actions, I would strongly disagree.

Conversely, if you were to describe him as a Muslim based on those same factors, I’d have to scratch my chin and say “Hmmmm….”

In the end, the fault lies with him. All his bobbing, weaving, obfuscation and ho humming have not so much defined who he is as much as who he isn’t. And that seems to me the sign of a man with much to hide.

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 12:36 PM

The ODS is getting out of control here.

lodge on November 27, 2008 at 12:40 PM

here’s your proof:
He spent time in a church for 20 years that, despite it’s hatred, focused on the bible and the cross and Jesus.

How a church turns to a masjid, a cross to a crescent, a bible to the Qur’an, and Jesus to Muhammad, I won’t know.

I don’t get the thinking of some here.

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 12:40 PM

IBN reporting fresh gunfights at Oberoi and Taj

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 12:41 PM

The way has to be made to include moderate Muslims in the global fight against terror by pointing out to them in some way that the terrorists are like a cancer that has to either be healed, or, removed, like a surgeon would remove a false growth with a scalpel.

DL13 on November 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM

Whodunnit? The NYT offers a melange of expert opinion suggesting (a) it’s Al Qaeda, (b) it’s definitely not Al Qaeda, (c) it’s a group with ties to Pakistan’s Lashkar e-Taiba, (d) it’s a homegrown Indian group.

(a) It’s Muslims.
(b) It’s Muslims.
(c) It’s Muslims.
(d) It’s Muslims.
(e) All of the above.

MB4 on November 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM

The litany of errors is long. Unlike their counterparts in the West, or in East Asia, India’s perpetually squabbling leaders have failed to put national security above partisan politics.

“…their counterparts in the West…”? Who are they talking about.

“…failed to put national security above partisan politics…” I assume they are talking about someone other than the US where the Dems have made an art form of squabbling about national security.

johnsteele on November 27, 2008 at 12:44 PM

IBN reporting fresh gunfights at Oberoi and Taj

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 12:41 PM

Those guys on meth or what?

BallisticBob on November 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM

He spent time in a church for 20 years that, despite it’s hatred, focused on the bible and the cross and Jesus.

So does the Ku Klux Klan. Does that make them Christian? Sure, technically I guess, though mainstream Christians probably wouldn’t accept them as legitimate.

Sitting for twenty years in the pews of a church presided over by a raving lunatic who preaches hate and separatism isn’t “Christian” in my book, it’s political convenience, a front for acceptance in order to gain power.

I don’t believe Obarfa is Christian, I think he uses that religion as a tool to further his personal goals, and because of that I have plenty of suspicion.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Just a quick note about the Indian security personnel I saw on TV.

To me the ones (police/troops?) that I saw on TV seemed somewhat disorganized and under-equipped. For example, on one of the videos that was played over and over (and over and over and over…) I could have sworn I saw Indian troops carrying Lee-Enfields, and I thought I saw one guy (on the back of a truck with some rescued hostages being given water) with a Sten gun. I could be wrong, but I know a Lee enfield when I see it…it’s a pretty good weapon (won WWII) but on balance I’d rather have the AK47.

And who was in charge?

Doesn’t anyone wear vests?

It just seemed a bit…I dunno…different than one would expect from a country with nuclear weapons, and putting a satellite around the moon.

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 12:49 PM

BallisticBob on November 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM

On something. IBN reports that ‘final’ assaults in the works at Oberoi and Taj and power cut at Narimann House.

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 12:49 PM

I can’t believe that the situation is ongoing and already people are bringing out their explanations of “what happened”. Not to mention the bleating self-recrimination of people like Sadanand Dhume who tell us what’s wrong with the Indians’ approach without ever telling us what they would have done differently. As if.
Looks to me like a complex operation with many elements: Taking out the top cops first was a masterstroke, the Jewish center in a city with a tiny Jewish presence shows a degree of vindictiveness and local knowledge, and then the targetting of foreigners to get the world’s attention. That Guardian report at the Jewish center suggests that a Maharashtrian cop may not be able to tell a Punjabi or a Kashmiri from a “white”. Maybe, but I’d wait and see. Indians know each other better than any Guardian reporter. If they are really white (Bosnians) or even converts from the West, then this thing is massive. It doesn’t really matter what group claims responsibility, it’s just another label for Jihadis-R-Us. Roggio has it right, it’s part of the Long War. The enemy is Islam, not any individual Islamic nutjob, peaceful today, suicide bomber tomorrow.
And as for my rage: I’m booked to go to Mumbai next month, and still will. And we’ve been getting email updates from a friend who has a friend who was stuck in the Taj, but is now out. It’s personal.

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Taj on fire (again)

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 12:52 PM

I don’t own a TV… is there a good live news feed online?

Ugly on November 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM

How do you survive without The View?

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 12:53 PM

CNN is teasing that there may be some links to the U.S.? Anyone have anything along these lines?

Weight of Glory on November 27, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Bishop you can question his religious conviction, but questioning that doesn’t make him a Muslim, and that’s my damn point.

Screaming “MUSLIM” isn’t going to get us re elected in 2010. People should drop that braindead bs.

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Mumbai trutherism has already begun. Yay!

flipflop on November 27, 2008 at 12:55 PM

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 12:49 PM

No shiite, and Enfield? Are you sure it wasn’t a FN-FAL, not that I’m hitting you on what you saw but I can’t believe they are still carrying bolt action rifles.

I’ve seen their trucks and APC’s (as well for Pakistani troops) armed with MG42′s before, but that’s about it.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 12:55 PM

It’ll be interesting to see the strategic fallout of this once it gets unraveled.

Two adolescent countries with nukes?

And I’ll bet the fingers are twitchier on those buttons than anywhere else on the planet. Even on a good day.

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Mumbai trutherism has already begun. Yay!

flipflop on November 27, 2008 at 12:55 PM

Man. They’re fast.

Weight of Glory on November 27, 2008 at 12:58 PM

More details from IBN on the top 3 cops killed at the hospital. They drove up to the hospital and went through the front doors where they were cut down. The jihadi-dogs then took their vehicle and drove off toward the theater that was hit. That was the vid of the a**holes firing on the reporters and newscrews, while driving from the hospital.

Two ‘control’ rooms have been identified by security personnel. One in the Taj, one in the Oberoi.

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 12:58 PM

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Doesn’t make him a Christian either, and considering his upbringing, there is plenty of cause to believe he is a muslim or at least has muslim sympathies.

Do I believe we should be running around screaming, “He’s a MUSLIM!” as a political tactic? No, though a healthy dose of skepticism about his religious leanings is perfectly acceptable. You would call it conspiracy theory, I would call it distrust of a man who seems to be very good at hiding or destroying those things which could embarrass or doom him.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:00 PM

Man. They’re fast.

Weight of Glory on November 27, 2008 at 12:58 PM

Pretty sad that that’s the first thing that comes to mind for some idiots out there.

flipflop on November 27, 2008 at 1:01 PM

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Thanks, but India’s not an adolescent. Problem seems to be that you historically-challenged Yanks are only just waking up to the nightmare you created in supporting Pakistan as a client state from the 1950s onwards. How’s that working out for ya? Including supporting the ragheads during the Afghanistan/ USSR war, remember, what noble freedom fighters they were? Indians knew about al-Quaeda well before 9/11, you just woke up to Islamic terrorism when they came and bit you in the ass.

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Oberoi now on fire too.

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 1:03 PM

Sadanand Dhume explains:

Finally, an inability to modernize a 150-million strong Muslim population, the second largest after Indonesia’s, has spawned a community ill-equipped to seize new economic opportunities and susceptible to militant Islam’s faith-based appeal…

This must be a joke. There isn’t a muslim population in the world that has allowed itself to be modernized. At some point these folks are going to be able to put 2 and 2 together. Of course, the fact that they still can’t doesn’t bode well, even after it clicks in their brains.

We cannot continue treating these savages as if they were civilized people. That’s like inviting a wild gorilla to dinner and being disappointed that he won’t use his fork, while no one wants to mention that he keeps tearing the faces off of the other dinner guests. He’s a gorilla.

progressoverpeace on November 27, 2008 at 1:04 PM

The mother ship probably carried in most of the AK-47′s, grenades, explosives, orders, and rubber boats to within 10 or 20 miles from the city. Most of the terrorists were probably already in the city and met up with their leaders and weapons after the rubber boats transferred them to the beach or river areas. The “grunts” probably didn’t get their orders until then–you can’t tell about something you don’t know about yet.
***
The Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle is a better choice for long range sniping a terrorist in a room full of hostages–particularly if it has a scope. The AK-47 is less accurate single shot, and a burst of fire will kill nearby hostages as the shots “walk off” the target.
***
I expected the U.S.A. to suffer a lot of random 2 man sniper attacks after the Washington, D.C. area Black Muslin Terrorist shootings a few years ago. Cheap, effective, and easy to do with our porous borders. BUILD THE BORDER FENCES AND GET A HANDLE ON ALL FOREIGNERS / SUSPICIOUS PERSONS IN THE U.S.A.–SOON! Use one agency wide data base to keep track of them.
***
John Bibb

rocketman on November 27, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Speaking of trembly, adolescent fingers…

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 1:05 PM

India’s Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has vowed to take “whatever measures are necessary” to track down those responsible for the Mumbai attacks.
He said the perpetrators were based “outside the country” and India would not tolerate “neighbours” who provide a haven to militants targeting it

lodge on November 27, 2008 at 1:06 PM

I have no critism for Obama on this issue as he is only “present” so far in the war on terror.

But even the Obama backers have to admit that he is ill prepared to face the dangers of Islamic terrorism. It isnt based on his religeon but on his lack of experience.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 1:09 PM

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Oh sorry, I guess I’d rather see a mushroom cloud over your hometown rather than mine, that’s all. And equating the Indians with your ankle-biting Paki ex-best friends hasn’t really been one the Americans best foreign policies has it?

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:11 PM

The terrorists have 7th-Century minds and 20th-Century weapons–a bad combination.

RBMN on November 27, 2008 at 1:11 PM

I seriously hope I’m wrong here but I can’t help but think things like this will become more and more common. The Terrorists know that Obama will do nothing to them just as Clinton did nothing. They will be become stronger and bolder as the Obama administration gets going. I think we’re in for some really bad stuff.

And I really don’t think Obama is a Christian or a Muslim. I think he’s just incredibly ambitious and creepily narcissistic.

Kronos on November 27, 2008 at 1:12 PM

What proof is their that he is a muslim…not counting the baseless accusations of course.

kanda on November 27, 2008 at 12:34 PM

Hardly any proof at all just…

The fact that his father was a Muslim.

The fact that his stepfather was a Muslim.

The fact that he attended a Muslim school (Besuki Primary School).

The fact that he was registered at a Christian school (Fransiskus Assisis) as a Muslim.

Obama states in ‘Dreams of My Fathers’ he studied the Quran and describes the school as “a Muslim school.”

A former teacher at one of these schools, Tine Hahiyary, remembers a young Obama who was quite religious and actively took part in ‘mengaji’ classes which teach how to read the Koran in Arabic.

In an interview with the New York Times, Obama described the Muslim call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”

The Times’ Nicholos Kristof wrote Obama recited, “with a first-class [Arabic] accent,” the opening lines of the Muslim call to prayer.

There is no record of his converting to Christianity or a baptism.

Trinity United Church of Christ which Obama attends has very close ties to the Muslim community. This includes the Nation of Islam.

The pastor at that church Revered Jeremiah Wright was a former Muslim.

Trinity United Church of Christ has ties with the Palestinians and Hamas.

Obama went to Kenya in 2006 and spoke at rallies in support of Raila Odinga, a radical Muslim fighting to impose Sharia law, causing the Kenyan government to denounce him as ‘Raila’s stooge’.

I would not call this baseless. Given the above there is good cause for suspicion.

We simply don’t know. That seems to be standard fare as far as Obama goes. He is a cypher.

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:02 PM

I hear there are also some embarrassing photos showing FDR, Churchill and mass-murderer Stalin at Yalta; strange how alliances are forged and then broken in the name of expediency, huh?

The history I remember is India being controlled by England for so long that their national identity never had an opportunity to forge a lasting embrace between its religious groups. And of course England never took a hand in fomenting mistrust between those groups to keep them from becoming powerful….no no, that never happened.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:15 PM

The terrorists have 7th-Century minds and 20th-Century weapons–a bad combination.

RBMN on November 27, 2008 at 1:11 PM

That wouldn’t be such a problem, except that we still have a naive, post-WWII ROE.

progressoverpeace on November 27, 2008 at 1:15 PM

Just a quick note about the Indian security personnel I saw on TV.

To me the ones (police/troops?) that I saw on TV seemed somewhat disorganized and under-equipped.

I believe the Main Indian Army is up around the borders. Mumbai is far down the south Western coast of India. Likely there wasnt a major army base there but rather just militia and police ?

The terrorists hit a soft target. That is why they targeted it.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 1:15 PM

here’s your proof:
He spent time in a church for 20 years that, despite it’s hatred, focused on the bible and the cross and Jesus.

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 12:40 PM

It’s a Black Liberation Theology church, which isn’t really Christian. Look up the rantings of James Cone, a man Jeremiah Wright seems to regard as a model.

It’s pretty perverted stuff:

“Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors, here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love…..” – leading theorist of Black Liberation Theology, James Cone.

“I do not in any way dissagree with James Cone. Jim is a personal friend of mine.” – 9:15 a.m., Reverend Jeremiah Wright (Obama’s “former” pastor of twenty years), at the National Press Club, 4/28/08.

Additionally, Wright being a friend of Farrakhan, it’s kind of difficult to imagine what really was going on at TUCC, and what’s going on there today.

Anyway, I sort of jumped in here without knowing the context, so if this information is irrelevant to the discussion, please forgive the intrusion. Back on topic I go.

capitalist piglet on November 27, 2008 at 1:17 PM

Oh sorry, I guess I’d rather see a mushroom cloud over your hometown rather than mine, that’s all. And equating the Indians with your ankle-biting Paki ex-best friends hasn’t really been one the Americans best foreign policies has it?

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Ummm… did I like knock up your sister or something? ’cause you sure seem to hate me a lot.

For the record, I think equating Indian nuclear controls with Pakistani nuclear controls is viable. Of all the countries on earth, each of those is WAY at the top of my list as far as instability goes. Sure, I’m opening myself up to an argument, and you are MORE than welcome to disagree, but DUDE! What’s with the attitude?

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 1:17 PM

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Pfffft! Who needs these facts getting in the way of The One’s™ ascendancy, we have a nation, nay a WORLD to heal.

Move along now.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Move along now.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Sorry. Didn’t mean to stand in the way of all that healing and stuff.

Does this mean we are all beautiful and unique snowflake’s now? And BTW where’s my magic pony? I was promised a magic pony!

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Sorry. Didn’t mean to stand in the way of all that healing and stuff.

No problem, though you will still be required to attend Reeducation Camp #12 for a few months.

Does this mean we are all beautiful and unique snowflake’s now? And BTW where’s my magic pony? I was promised a magic pony!

Snowflakes are white, you racist and we don’t get ponies, we get unicorns. WTF, can’t you keep a simple narrative straight?

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:25 PM

Whenever you see blue names in a thread, you really are seeing red flags.

corona on November 27, 2008 at 1:35 PM

The way has to be made to include moderate Muslims in the global fight against terror by pointing out to them in some way that the terrorists are like a cancer that has to either be healed, or, removed, like a surgeon would remove a false growth with a scalpel.

DL13 on November 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM

There’s a saying: “a moderate muslim holds you down while a radical muslim cuts your head off.”

It is that myth of “moderate muslims” that has allowed Islam to conquer country after country in their jihads. Islam is not a new enemy, but an old menace that has been destroying civilizations and cultures for centuries.

And history has proven the only time non-muslims were successful against muslims was when we became as vicious and bloodthirsty as they are. We need to rid ourselves of our illusions and childish hopes about Islam/muslims and eradicate this ideology as we did with Nazism, that’s our only real option for survival.

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 1:36 PM

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 1:27 PM

[Raised eyebrows.] Uh oh.

capitalist piglet on November 27, 2008 at 1:36 PM

DUDE! What’s with the attitude?

The attitude is in the “let’s you and him fight!” position that too many Americans seem to take when it comes to the two countries. It seem to absolve you of the responsibility in arming, supporting and propping up Pakistan since the 50s; and the blind eye that you’ve turned to their nuclear proliferation and general Islamic wankiness. Seems to me that Osama is quite likely in Pakistan, protected by the Pakistani intelligence services. But even now you seem to think that it’s OK to play the zero-sum game of the Cold War, pitting India against Pakistan as equals. In case you haven’t noticed, your dog in this fight has got rabies.
This thing going on in Mumbai right now isn’t like little border “dispute” that you tolerated all through the 80s and 90s in Kashmir. This is part of a war that will quite likely come to a town near you, somehow, somewhere. Other posters have already commented on how you’d cope then. At least as well as the population of Mumbai, I would hope.

Fortunata on November 27, 2008 at 1:37 PM

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 1:27 PM

You are correct about the Army. The NSG commandos and Navy assault forces had to fly in. It took four hours to get the first heavy troops on the ground.

The main photos we are getting of the cops (lightly armed, no vests, etc) are not and indication of what the terrorists are facing now. In the initial hours of the assault they were the front line and were outgunned. From what I’ve taken from IBN it is the state governor, not the national government, who has to request the security forces and it wasn’t until those top three cops were killed that the governor acted.

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 1:38 PM

And history has proven the only time non-muslims were successful against muslims was when we became as vicious and bloodthirsty as they are. We need to rid ourselves of our illusions and childish hopes about Islam/muslims and eradicate this ideology as we did with Nazism, that’s our only real option for survival.

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 1:36 PM

You have a point. Anytime you encounter a culture that values death more than life, you are in trouble. From the beginning, this conflict has reminded me more of our fight with the Japanese in WWII than the Nazis, honestly, because rather than risk capture, their goal was to die and take as many of our guys with them as possible, not necessarily to make it home alive.

When a culture doesn’t care about that, there are no boundaries to the atrocities and evil they can take part in.

capitalist piglet on November 27, 2008 at 1:44 PM

It’ll be interesting to see the strategic fallout of this once it gets unraveled.

Two adolescent countries with nukes?

And I’ll bet the fingers are twitchier on those buttons than anywhere else on the planet. Even on a good day.

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 12:56 PM

India is a 10,000 year old civilization and at its prime the Indian Empire was the Great Britain or USA of its time. The ideological infrastructure of our mathematical, scientific, political and philosophical ideas/values were laid down by Indian thinkers thousands of years ago.

Its recent state of backwardness, poverty and underdevelopment is a direct consequence of numerous and massive invasions from arab muslim/persian barbarians and of course the British. Its decline should serve as a lesson to all advanced cultures like ours to guard one’s civilization ruthlessly or risk losing it.

India, Israel, Serbia, Europe, USA-we’re all the same people. Though our languages and cultures are superficially different, we all share the same democratic values and love of freedom and equality. We also face the same totalitarian enemies in Islam and Communism and rather than finding reasons to further divide and alienate each other, we should unite and work towards a common defense of our civilizations.

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Every time there is a major terrorist attack, unlike the NY Times, I know immediately that Muslims are behind it.

At some point, the civilized people of the world are going to have to come to grips with the fact that we have been losing the war to worldwide jihad for 30 years now. At some point, we must fight back.

On a related note – I am a teacher in a fairly well-to-do suburban area. The other day, between classes, my teenage students were talking about Christmas gifts. A very high percentage of them are getting guns, and their parents are taking them to gun ranges on the weekends. In 20 years of teaching, I’ve never heard these sort of conversations from the students. In light of the economy, terrorism, and the people who have been put in charge in Washington, normal decent people are now arming themselves to the teeth. I’ve never owned a gun, but now I’m considering getting armed myself.

Phildorex on November 27, 2008 at 1:46 PM

I’ve never owned a gun, but now I’m considering getting armed myself.
Phildorex on November 27, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Do it, come over to the dark side and join us, there is always more room at the inn.

Bishop on November 27, 2008 at 1:49 PM

OT: The Macy’s Parade just got RICK-ROLLED!

wccawa on November 27, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Help is on the way. –Barak Obama

exdeadhead on November 27, 2008 at 2:01 PM

You have a point. Anytime you encounter a culture that values death more than life, you are in trouble. From the beginning, this conflict has reminded me more of our fight with the Japanese in WWII than the Nazis, honestly, because rather than risk capture, their goal was to die and take as many of our guys with them as possible, not necessarily to make it home alive.

When a culture doesn’t care about that, there are no boundaries to the atrocities and evil they can take part in.

capitalist piglet on November 27, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Thanks and quite right. As muslims often say “we love death more than the infidels [us] love life” they really mean it.

We couldn’t talk Nazis out of being Nazis, or dissuade the Japanese from their imperialist ambitions, we won’t be able to do that with muslims either. What is desperately needed now is an extensive education campaign in wester nations, at least an open dialog of the threat of Islamization of democratic countries.

People are not going to jump on our bandwagon of defeating Islam unless they know the reasons why. Its also why this country is so divided-while I have my grievances with liberals the fact is that they are simple uninformed on Islam or have a false/misguided understanding.

We cannot win this war as a divided nation, we need their help also-so its vital we educate our fellow citizens. We should waste any effort on “moderate muslims”, the smart ones will join our side anyways (like they did in Iraq), the stupid ones will face the consequences.

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Taj seige over. Last of the terrorists there shot and killed.

Limerick on November 27, 2008 at 2:03 PM

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 2:02 PM

corrections:

*western
*shouldn’t

thinkagain on November 27, 2008 at 2:08 PM

When the Palestinians do it, it’s against the Israeli oppressors.

Skywise on November 27, 2008 at 11:51 AM

When the Palestinians Hamas, and the other Islamo-Fascists in the region do it, it’s against the Israeli oppressors women, children, whoever they can blow up.
FIFY

batterup on November 27, 2008 at 2:28 PM

I had to go look at democrat underground. I could only look around for a second. The great deceiver obama is endorsed by the nation of islam, member that little louis farakhan messiah thingy? Remember reverend wright dabbled in islam, whiskey and women thingy. He’s no christian either. This obama has sealed birth certificate. Why cant we see it? How can he be trusted to keep us safe?

gringo69 on November 27, 2008 at 2:33 PM

Religion of Violence
Religion of Hate
Religion of Death
Religion of Murder
Religion of Slavery
Religion of Misery

Religion of Peace? NOT

Kini on November 27, 2008 at 2:40 PM

Bishop:

Re: Are you sure it wasn’t a FN-FAL?

I saw FNs too…actually, there seemed to be a bit of a cornucopia. The Lee Enfields (or what seemed to be) were carried by some guys getting off the back of a truck.

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 2:50 PM

Bishop:

Re: Are you sure it wasn’t a FN-FAL?

I saw FNs too…actually, there seemed to be a bit of a cornucopia. The Lee Enfields (or what seemed to be) were carried by some guys getting off the back of a truck.

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 2:50 PM

Yeah I saw the same in some photo’s from Flickr. I believe they are police or para-military. Army would be the one using the FN-FAL (Ishapore).

http://www3.flickr.com/photos/vinu/

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 2:57 PM

Muslim Terrorists? I heard there are none.

Who would have thunk it. /sarc

DannoJyd on November 27, 2008 at 3:09 PM

Everyone of the 800 million Hindus in India now has a job, killing jihadis and their sympathizers and supporters.

federale86 on November 27, 2008 at 3:40 PM

He spent time in a church for 20 years that, despite it’s hatred, focused on the bible and the cross and Jesus.

Yeah, despite it’s hatred. Insightful.

I’m an agnostic and you’re a moron. Even I can see Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism are the antithesis of hate. If there’s hate there, it isn’t Christian.

DarkCurrent on November 27, 2008 at 3:44 PM

The country’s antiterrorism effort is reactive and episodic rather than proactive and sustained. Its public discourse on Islam oscillates between crude anti-Muslim bigotry and mindless sympathy for largely unjustified Muslim grievance-mongering.

Note to incoming administration… insanity-doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!!

katy on November 27, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Why do you keep playing the whodunit game without actually knowing how terrorist do anything?

The homegrown Indian group was quite obviously cooperating with Taiba (who came by sea) which get’s it’s support from ISI.

The guns they were using weren’t AK-47′s alone pointing the finger at ISI. AQ provides an idealogical backing, it’s doubtful that they had any direct involvment, rather it’s more likely AQ gave their support and showed their enthusiasm for the operation when Taiba and the Indian Mujahideen told ISI what they were doing, and ISI would naturally tell AQ.

This is a network; when AT&T fails we don’t say it’s that one cell tower that’s broken, we say the network is down. We say that because it all operates as one. There is not a single group that could be blamed for this, but rather the network that streches from AQ, through ISI, through Taibia, and down to the Indian Mujahideen which is to blame.

PresidenToor on November 27, 2008 at 4:33 PM

Why do you keep playing the whodunit game without actually knowing how terrorist do anything?

The homegrown Indian group was quite obviously cooperating with Taiba (who came by sea) which get’s it’s support from ISI.

The guns they were using weren’t AK-47’s alone pointing the finger at ISI. AQ provides an idealogical backing, it’s doubtful that they had any direct involvment, rather it’s more likely AQ gave their support and showed their enthusiasm for the operation when Taiba and the Indian Mujahideen told ISI what they were doing, and ISI would naturally tell AQ.

This is a network; when AT&T fails we don’t say it’s that one cell tower that’s broken, we say the network is down. We say that because it all operates as one. There is not a single group that could be blamed for this, but rather the network that streches from AQ, through ISI, through Taibia, and down to the Indian Mujahideen which is to blame.

PresidenToor on November 27, 2008 at 4:33 PM

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner folks!

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Quick! Somebody call the cops!

rvastar on November 27, 2008 at 4:40 PM

I’m glad Toor has it all figured out before intel does.

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 4:51 PM

The terrorism can’t be happening!

Andrew Sullivan in The Atlantic 12/2007

Said so…

“Consider this hypothetical. It’s November 2008. A young Pakistani Muslim iswatching television and sees that this man—Barack Hussein Obama—is the new face of America. In one simple image, America’s soft power has been ratcheted up
not a notch, but a logarithm. A brown-skinned man whose father was an African, who grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii, who attended a majority-Muslim school as a boy, is now the alleged enemy. If you wanted the crudest but most effective
weapon against the demonization of America that fuels Islamist ideology, Obama’s face gets close. It proves them wrong about what America is in ways no words can.”

WHO MISLED US?

IlikedAUH2O on November 27, 2008 at 5:03 PM

The religion of peace strikes again.

20,000 Muslims Attack a Church in Cairo
One thousand Christians were today trapped inside the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary in West Ain Shams,Cairo, after more than twenty thousand Muslims attacked them with stones and butane gas cylinders. The Church’s priest Father Antonious said that the situation is extremely dangerous.

When the security forces tried to disperse the mob, they went to nearby homes and shops owned by Christians, and were armed with sticks, butane, knives and other sharp objects. Witnesses said the mob included children from as young as 8-years old to men of over 50-years old, in addition to women.

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 5:04 PM

WHO MISLED US?

IlikedAUH2O on November 27, 2008 at 5:03 PM

I am sure Andy will have a very good explanation as to why this is all Bush’s fault.

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 5:05 PM

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 4:51 PM

No, intels already figured it out. They’ve got fancy maps and computers and stuff… :)

PresidenToor on November 27, 2008 at 5:07 PM

IBN Just reporterd that an estimated 280 + terrorists took part in this attack. They Seem to have come in on a large merchant ship then pirated and took over several smaller craft by pirating them and killing the owners.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 5:11 PM

I should say SOME came in on ship most filtered in via air or was already there.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 5:12 PM

IBN Just reporterd that an estimated 280 + terrorists took part in this attack. They Seem to have come in on a large merchant ship then pirated and took over several smaller craft by pirating them and killing the owners.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 5:11 PM

How the hell did they maintain operational security with a force of that size?

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 5:15 PM

The Dalai bama is urging both sides to show restraint…ya know, kinda just sing a little kumbaya and share a Coke or something.

Wyznowski on November 27, 2008 at 5:15 PM

How the hell did they maintain operational security with a force of that size?

sharrukin on November 27, 2008 at 5:15 PM

They found cell phones and most of the arms seemed to have come in by sea. This was well coordinated.

This really does come across as a Intelligence agency backed attack.

William Amos on November 27, 2008 at 5:32 PM

I note the BBC still refuses to use the word “terrorists,” calling them “militants” instead.

It is BBC policy not to use the word “terrorist” because it demonizes Muslims, apparently. Or something like that.

However it is strange (or perhaps very telling) that they would use the word “militants” to describe terrorists to a British audience, because the world is very much associated with the socialist left in that country. Throughout the 80′s union leaders and the far-left in Britain were referred to as “militants.”

Sharke on November 27, 2008 at 5:33 PM

280 terrorists would change things. Although this isn’t much damage for that many attackers.

exception on November 27, 2008 at 5:33 PM

We will all get the answer in due time.

blatantblue on November 27, 2008 at 5:34 PM

bastards.

rob verdi on November 27, 2008 at 5:36 PM

what would this scum do if they had their hands on nukes or sarin? The answer, you is it. And to the Democrats who think such speculation is playing the politics of fear, Fuc$ you.

rob verdi on November 27, 2008 at 5:37 PM

I note the BBC still refuses to use the word “terrorists,” calling them “militants” instead.

It is BBC policy not to use the word “terrorist” because it demonizes Muslims, apparently. Or something like that.

However it is strange (or perhaps very telling) that they would use the word “militants” to describe terrorists to a British audience, because the world is very much associated with the socialist left in that country. Throughout the 80’s union leaders and the far-left in Britain were referred to as “militants.”

Sharke on November 27, 2008 at 5:33 PM

I thought “militants” only killed westerners , now indians share the same faith.
Or was it that they were searching for jews , britts and americans that demoted them from terrorist to “militants”.

the_nile on November 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM

I wonder if this attack qualifies as a “nuisance” under the Kerry doctrine?

This is the kind of stuff that opens the door to the end of times.

Mojave Mark on November 27, 2008 at 5:46 PM

50 people still held hostage in oberoi hotel, it seems

lodge on November 27, 2008 at 6:01 PM

Whodunnit? The NYT offers a melange of expert opinion suggesting (a) it’s Al Qaeda, (b) it’s definitely not Al Qaeda, (c) it’s a group with ties to Pakistan’s Lashkar e-Taiba, (d) it’s a homegrown Indian group.

(a) It’s Muslims.
(b) It’s Muslims.
(c) It’s Muslims.
(d) It’s Muslims.
(e) All of the above.

MB4 on November 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM

MB4, stop it! We are supposed to be doing all we can to conceal that fact.

thuja on November 27, 2008 at 6:43 PM

On election night, I ran into a guy from the Rand Institute (an important think tank for those who don’t know). He worked in the area of terrorism. He told me that the best thing to do about terrorism is to ignore it. He said I should check out the papers on the Rand website, and I haven’t had the opportunity to do so since then. Anyway, my bet is that the Rand academic intellectuals haven’t changed their opinion at all after this attack. And isn’t the hallmark of intelligence the ability to change one’s opinion in the face of new information?

thuja on November 27, 2008 at 6:54 PM

I note the BBC still refuses to use the word “terrorists,” calling them “militants” instead.

It is BBC policy not to use the word “terrorist” because it demonizes Muslims, apparently. Or something like that.

Sharke on November 27, 2008 at 5:33 PM

The BBC is pretty selective in their terminology. For example, if the victims are Jews, Israelis, Americans, Iraqis etc, the killers are militants.

However, the BBC had, and has, a clear term for the IRA…terrorists.

I guess it depends whose ox is being gored. Or, as Allahpundit might say…things are very “nuanced” at the BBC

Blaise on November 27, 2008 at 7:24 PM

On election night, I ran into a guy from the Rand Institute (an important think tank for those who don’t know). He worked in the area of terrorism. He told me that the best thing to do about terrorism is to ignore it.

thuja on November 27, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Rand has really fallen into the intellectual gutter since Von Neumann.

progressoverpeace on November 27, 2008 at 8:06 PM

a) It’s Muslims.
(b) It’s Muslims.
(c) It’s Muslims.
(d) It’s Muslims.
(e) All of the above.

MB4 on November 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM

The religion of perpetual outrage.

Johan Klaus on November 27, 2008 at 8:52 PM

I thought “militants” only killed westerners , now indians share the same faith.
Or was it that they were searching for jews , britts and americans that demoted them from terrorist to “militants”.

the_nile on November 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM

They kill non muslims.

Johan Klaus on November 27, 2008 at 8:55 PM

“perpetually squabbling leaders have failed to put national security above partisan politics”

Hope this statement sinks in to our lib/socialist/dim overlords.

rayvet on November 27, 2008 at 9:17 PM

BBC drinks the same bilge as our MSM

The article I cited above appeared in the Atlantic Monthly and not The Atlantic of 12/2007.
I am sorry. The piece was entitled Goodbye to All That
which was an allusion to an antiwar book. The article, at its essence, made all the silly leftist conclusions that have kept the morons going for about 24 months now. The One of course, was our escape from Viet Nam, the Reagan years, indeed he is the bridge to the 21st century!

And for those of you who have doubts about The One’s citizenship:

“And there are also times when Obama’s experience feels more like an immigrant story than a black memoir.”

And no, I don’t see a conspiracy but it is strange how obvious his alien or international nature is.

IlikedAUH2O on November 27, 2008 at 9:22 PM

NDTV has footage of NSG troops in helicopter airdrops onto the Nariman house rooftop. Looks like they’re ready to wrap things up over there finally.

99% sure that the personnel with the Enfields (khaki uniforms) are local police forces. NSG is going to be in black or camo, much better armed, and much better protected.

Mr Tips on November 27, 2008 at 9:24 PM

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