Update: Mumbai massacre still raging

posted at 10:47 am on November 27, 2008 by Allahpundit

I’ve got 20 browser tabs open to stories on different aspects of what’s happening but it’ll take too long to digest them all at once, so let’s start small and then I’ll follow with updates. For the moment, suffice it to say, they’re still at it: Indian troops are inside the hotels being held hostage and are clearing them room by room to flush out the jihadis hiding in both buildings. Terrorists are firing from the eighth floor of the Trident and at least four of them have blown themselves up inside the Taj. MSNBC was reporting new explosions in the latter building as recently as a half hour ago, which I assume is due to Indian troops stumbling upon rooms where suicide bombers are holed up. What kind of arsenal are we talking about here? IBN:

One commando was killed two others injured in the operation at Taj in which one rucksack full of plastic explosives, eight–nine loaded AK–47 magazines, large amounts of ammunition, hand grenades, detonators, batteries, wrist watches for IEDs, foreign currencies, fake credit cards, dry fruits and cash carried by the terrorists were recovered.

More than 100 people, including at least 14 cops are dead so far, but since no one knows what’s going on inside the hotels and bombs are still going off, the true death toll is anyone’s guess. A hostage released from one of the hotels reports having seen “many bodies.” Another open question is how many of the victims were or are being killed accidentally by Indian security themselves: According to Jonathan Foreman at the Corner, they’ve been known to fire wildly in these situations.

Update: A surreal scene from the Guardian as eyewitnesses describe terrorists arriving by boat.

At least some of the terrorists, said to be in their early twenties and armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, landed on the coast of Mumbai’s commercial and entertainment neighbourhood in light and fast Gemini boats, powered by small outboard motors.

These inflatable dinghies, according to Indian navy sources quoted by the Headlines Today TV news channel, were launched from a larger vessel, the MV Alfa, which arrived near Mumbai sometime yesterday and anchored offshore a distance from India’s financial capital…

By this time the vessel had left the vicinity of Mumbai. When first reported by the news channel today, the MV Alfa was said to be off the Gujarat coast and heading towards Pakistan.

The Guardian’s source reports seeing six men get off the boat. Sky News claims that there were only 12 in all, which can’t be true given how many separate attacks there were last night unless that group rendezvoused with another group that was already in the city. I saw a bulletin on IBN earlier claiming that five jihadis had been killed and nine captured, so Sky’s number is at least a little low. Or, more likely, a lot.

Update: Whodunnit? The NYT offers a melange of expert opinion suggesting (a) it’s Al Qaeda, (b) it’s definitely not Al Qaeda, (c) it’s a group with ties to Pakistan’s Lashkar e-Taiba, (d) it’s a homegrown Indian group. Hope that clears things up. The Independent makes a strong case that the answer’s (d), that the “Deccan Mujahedeen” is actually a dangerous group known as the Indian Mujahedeen acting by another name. (“A high level of sophistication has also been a hallmark of previous attacks by the Indian Mujahideen.”) Is India likely to acknowledge that if it’s true? Stratfor plays realpolitik and says no:

[T]he Indian government has two choices. First, it can simply say that the perpetrators are a domestic group. In that case, it will be held accountable for a failure of enormous proportions in security and law enforcement. It will be charged with being unable to protect the public. On the other hand, it can link the attack to an outside power: Pakistan. In that case it can hold a nation-state responsible for the attack, and can use the crisis atmosphere to strengthen the government’s internal position by invoking nationalism. Politically this is a much preferable outcome for the Indian government, and so it is the most likely course of action. This is not to say that there are no outside powers involved — simply that, regardless of the ground truth, the Indian government will claim there were…

Either way, India is under enormous pressure to respond. Therefore the events point to a serious crisis not simply between Pakistan and India, but within Pakistan as well, with the government caught between foreign powers and domestic realities. Given the circumstances, massive destabilization is possible — never a good thing with a nuclear power.

Pakistan’s already trying to defuse the situation, but too late: Sources are whispering to the Times of India that the jihadis are Pakistani nationals (“We have total clues”) and Indian PM Singh hinted darkly in his speech to the nation this morning about “external linkages.” Which isn’t to say it’s not true: Sky News claims one terrorist spoke in a Kashmiri accent and ranted about the number of Muslims killed there. But Stratfor’s right, needless to say, that this is a huge embarrassment for Indian intel (especially since it happened in Mumbai, where security is tighter because of previous bombings) and doubly so if it was planned on Indian soil.

Here’s vid of Singh’s address.


Update: As always, Jews are a special target. Eight people are reportedly being held hostage at the Mumbai Lubavitch center, although the rabbi’s two-year-old son was released. Another surreal scene:

“We heard bang-bang in the alleyway and first thought it was firecrackers. But then we heard horrible grief and a woman ran out covered in the blood of her mother. We saw two older women were shot dead while cooking dinner in their kitchens,” said Sanjay Kokate, who was a local political leader and said he was part of a self-appointed citizens police force. “We helped carry the bodies out. People have been trapped inside their apartments ever since. It’s so horrifying.”

According to Chabad’s Web site, the center offers daily prayer services and Torah classes, and is a popular hangout among Israeli tourists.

The Web site said the center is run by Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka. The couple’s two-year-old son was escorted out of the building several hours after the attack, his clothing soaked in blood, the Associated Press reported. The toddler was accompanied by a cook and another employee of the center. The Chabad Web site said the fate of Gavriel and Rivka Holtzvberg was not known.

And a tantalizing detail from the Guardian:

One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were “white”, although this could mean they were paler-skinned Indians from the country’s north.

“I went into the building late last night,” he said. “I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.

Update: Roggio aptly calls this the most significant terror attack since 9/11 and expects it’ll force a major rethink of Indian counterterror policy. What does that mean? Sadanand Dhume explains:

The litany of errors is long. Unlike their counterparts in the West, or in East Asia, India’s perpetually squabbling leaders have failed to put national security above partisan politics. The country’s antiterrorism effort is reactive and episodic rather than proactive and sustained. Its public discourse on Islam oscillates between crude anti-Muslim bigotry and mindless sympathy for largely unjustified Muslim grievance-mongering. Its failure to either charm or cow its Islamist-friendly neighbors — Pakistan and Bangladesh — reveals a limited grasp of statecraft. Finally, an inability to modernize a 150-million strong Muslim population, the second largest after Indonesia’s, has spawned a community ill-equipped to seize new economic opportunities and susceptible to militant Islam’s faith-based appeal…

In sum, the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed. When faced with fundamentalist demands, India’s democratically elected leaders have regularly preferred caving to confrontation on a point of principle. The country’s institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream. The country’s diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood. The ongoing drama in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.

Update: The Economist joins the “whodunnit?” game and leans heavily towards the theory that it was a homegrown group of Indian Muslims, quite possibly the Indian Mujahedeen. They also mention, en passant, reports from Indian troops inside the hotels that there are “bodies in many rooms.”


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call mossad in. they will take care of this quickly.

mimi1220 on November 27, 2008 at 9:39 PM

Does anyone else think this is going to change the face of terrorism? People have predicted for years that if AQ used conventional small arms and grenades in a coordinated attack on a mall or other soft target the casualties would be unbelievable.

This is going to change the face of terrorism. This is sophisticated, but not entirely untenable, and if AQ were able to pull off half the sophistication of this attack, it might be more shocking than 9/11.

John_Locke on November 27, 2008 at 9:51 PM

NDTV reporting that some of the terrorists believed to be British citizens of Pakistani ethnicity.

Mr Tips on November 27, 2008 at 10:21 PM

Does anyone else think this is going to change the face of terrorism? People have predicted for years that if AQ used conventional small arms and grenades in a coordinated attack on a mall or other soft target the casualties would be unbelievable.

Not if enough of us exercise our second amendment rights!

dhunter on November 27, 2008 at 10:26 PM

can’t believe some people hate Obama like the left hated Bush for no good reason. I don’t know if it is immaturity or stupidity that causes people to feel that way. Obama has not even taken office yet and some already condemn everything he does or may do. It is so sad to think that some of the people on the right are just as radical as the left was .

If you can’t understand the USA and the rest of the world is in this fight for their very survival, I guess you might as well give up and wait for the outcome. Hopefully well defeat the terrorists without you.

kanda on November 27, 2008 at 12:11 PM

I hate Obama because he is a facist and a socialist. He wants to redistribute my wealth to those who refuse to work. He wants to make “fair” the people who actually work for a living and those who have never held any kind of a job. Why should my money go to someone who has never even tried to hold a job? These are 3rd and 4th generation welfare recipients who believe they are worthy of government assistance, while they sit on their porches and do nothing and elect Democrats year after year – just so that they can remain on the plantation! The plantation of slavery they don’t even know they are even subscrbing to. Blacks submitting to slavery! Who would have thought it!

Neocon Peg on November 27, 2008 at 11:16 PM

Not if enough of us exercise our second amendment rights!

dhunter on November 27, 2008 at 10:26 PM

The problem is that some states like The People’s Republiks of New Jersey, New York, Taxachussets etc will not allow the people to exercise that right.

When the terrorists hit the hotels, they could be almost certain that none of the guests would be armed.. The result was pools of victim’s blood everywhere.

We had a bit of heated discussion at thanksgiving dinner tonight. Some of us are convinced that Barack Hussein Obama will do everything he can to eliminate private firearms ownership. Others were saying “oh he won’t do that” “He can’t be worse than Clinton” “It will never happen here”

Liberal politicians will use any excuse to grab guns. I remember when a young man from the midwest was knifed to death in New York. The moronic idiotic, slavering, mentally challenged, stupid, dribbling excuse of a mayor.. Dinkins said “Incidents like this show that we need more gun control now” Of course the lamestream press never pointed out how idiotic that comment was.

bullseye on November 27, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Everyone of the 800 million Hindus in India now has a job, killing jihadis and their sympathizers and supporters.

federale86 on November 27, 2008 at 3:40 PM

Maybe it will distract the ones who have been killing Christians who refuse to convert to Hinduism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,455066,00.html

God help us. There is so much hatred in this world.

pannw on November 27, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Now the Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, is posturing in front of the Oberoi. Ugh, I can’t f***ing stand him. Indian politicians are worse than ours. They have been responsible for all sorts of rabble rousing that led to many people dying in riots.

mram on November 27, 2008 at 11:39 PM

25 more rescued from the Hotel Oberoi

SgtSVJones on November 28, 2008 at 12:20 AM

normal decent people are now arming themselves to the teeth. I’ve never owned a gun, but now I’m considering getting armed myself.

Phildorex on November 27, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Excuse me?

It’s amazing to see what kind of damage 20 yrs as a teacher will do to a person’s perspective. You have been living in some kind of fantasy land. The parents of those kids have been armed all along, you just didn’t know it. Do you think those parents are just arming their kids? Of course not. They are bringing a second or third gun into the house now that their child is old enough.

My kids are just starting school and they are under strict instruction to not talk about guns at school. Why? Because of clueless teachers and liberal parents.

Where I grew up, I took target shooting classes IN my school. Now, I’m afraid to let my own boys talk about guns and have to remind them that they can not even make their fingers into a play gun on school grounds due to zero tolerance policies. It makes me want to puke.

My father, mother and oldest son took my son’s newly minted bride to a range last weekend to fire a gun for the first time. She will be buying one to keep at home while my son is deployed to Iraq.

My wife and a couple female coworkers of mine took a gun class a few weeks ago. One of the women is a single female who lives alone. She was the one wondering about buying a gun and the reason I suggested they all take the class. She was barely able to get over her fear of the gun, but managed to fire off a clip or two. The other woman did fine, she had fired a gun before with her father. My wife, who I thought had fired a gun before (but hadn’t!) blasted the hell out of a bunch of targets and brought them home like trophies. I was very proud of her.

I hope you do decide to arm yourself. You will be welcomed to the club. But, you do have a lot to unlearn. I hope you make the effort.

TheCulturalist on November 28, 2008 at 12:34 AM

The country’s institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream -Sadanand Dhume

No need for politically correct self examination on this one. The muslim identity creates the sense of separateness from the non muslim without any help

The oppositions to non Hindu religions in India is strong, but it has not made Indian Christians into terrorists

entagor on November 28, 2008 at 1:00 AM

Thanks for your efforts on this, Allah.

You do a great job in trying to make sense of the senseless. It’s much appreciated.

Nichevo on November 28, 2008 at 3:02 AM

“Another open question is how many of the victims were or are being killed accidentally by Indian security themselves: According to Jonathan Foreman at the Corner, they’ve been known to fire wildly in these situations.”

I take strong exception to this. The people involved in flushing the terrorists out of the affected locations are from the National Security Guard – they are the elite of the Indian Armed Forces and are India’s equivalent to the British SAS’s Red and Blue teams. These people are rigorously trained and equipped with pretty-much the best the Indian Army can lay its hands on. Jonathan Foreman doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

If the troops were anything but disciplined and highly trained, the crisis would have ended hours ago with a far higher casualty count. The very fact that they are going room to room, painstakingly clearing two 600+ room hotels is testament to their training.

People who have served in CT situations will attest to the difficulties associated with Close Quarters Battle in such a location.

Jester on November 28, 2008 at 3:21 AM

The muslim identity creates the sense of separateness from the non muslim without any help

Watch how hate breeds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4f89Jg-TnY

macncheez on November 28, 2008 at 3:33 AM

The Economist joins the “whodunnit?” game and leans heavily towards the theory that it was a homegrown group of Indian Muslims, quite possibly the Indian Mujahedeen. They also mention, en passant, reports from Indian troops inside the hotels that there are “bodies in many rooms.”

If they were homegrown, where did they …
1. Organize
2. Train
3. Procure weapons, ammunition and explosives

One terrorist has been captured alive more than 16 hours ago and he’s singing.

The terrorists spoke punjabi laced with urdu in an accent that indicates Pakistani Punjab.

Intercepted communications have the terrorists talking to each other about pretending to be from Hyderabad in India. These communications took place in the aforementioned language and accent.

The terrorists were in touch with people in Pakistan (Karachi, to be specific) using Satphones.

The unexploded grenades recovered from them seem to have been manufactured in Pakistani Ordnance Factories.

The weapons used were AK-56s. Chinese variants of the AK-47. They’re regularly used by the Pakis.

Combat has been going on now for more than 36 hours. These terrorists were extremely well trained and combat hardened. A domestic group without rigorous training would never have lasted this long. Moreover the entire op smacks of being a very well planned military op. We know the Pakistani ISI has a pathological need to screw with India.

How much more evidence do these ****ers in the media need?

Jester on November 28, 2008 at 3:49 AM

How much more evidence do these ****ers in the media need?

Jester on November 28, 2008 at 3:49 AM

Out of fear of Obama and his hoodlums-elect , here are two words MS media will never ever use , atleast not together :
1. muslim
2. terrorists
As for evidence, that concept is relevant to those who dabble with truth, not with cover-ups

I won’t be surprised if in the coming days, the idiots @ CNN , CBS , ABC or even PMSNBC comeup with stories of human-rights violations of the dead Mumbai terrorists , asking Obama to punish India for its response to the carnage and massacre
And Obama’s handlers/teleprompter guys/ advisors might just do that

macncheez on November 28, 2008 at 4:40 AM

Pakistan knows they would be the first suspect, and it doesn’t seem to be their ISI which is an arm of our CIA and has been since the Carter administration.

Strange thing is I saw some credible reports on Ace of Spades’ comment thread with a different account of the guns used and the exact arrival of the terrorists on yellow rubber rafts. It sounded like AQ, since they can recruit locally. All of these comments were scrubbed from the site, though. I don’t think it was the admin.

A lot of effort is going into making this look like ISI, and I have a very bad feeling about this. The timing is not only to make it seem like the President-elect is perceived as weak. It is not just to coincide with the holidays, and I think this is just the beginning. Obama has said he would go into Pakistan after OBL. This could be the start of WWIII.

chunderroad on November 28, 2008 at 4:50 AM

I seriously hope I’m wrong here but I can’t help but think things like this will become more and more common. The Terrorists know that Obama will do nothing to them just as Clinton did nothing. They will be become stronger and bolder as the Obama administration gets going. I think we’re in for some really bad stuff.

And I really don’t think Obama is a Christian or a Muslim. I think he’s just incredibly ambitious and creepily narcissistic.

Kronos on November 27, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Or, moreover, the Radical Muslims know that Obama is one of them.

Have we ever gotten an explanation, any explanation whatsoever, from Obama or his campaign/administration, about his visit to Pakistan in 1982 on an Indonesian passport?

Obama said he was on a “spiritual journey.” Isn’t that precisely how the Jihadists describe their quests to that land?

ericdondero on November 28, 2008 at 8:01 AM

You are doing exactly what the terrorists hope for. You are giving up on the war on terror.

I can’t believe some people hate Obama like the left hated Bush for no good reason. I don’t know if it is immaturity or stupidity that causes people to feel that way. Obama has not even taken office yet and some already condemn everything he does or may do. It is so sad to think that some of the people on the right are just as radical as the left was .

If you can’t understand the USA and the rest of the world is in this fight for their very survival, I guess you might as well give up and wait for the outcome. Hopefully well defeat the terrorists without you.

kanda on November 27, 2008 at 12:11 PM

And this my friends, exemplifies the difference between libertarians and conservatives. This is why we libertarians are so suspicious of you conservatives. It’s not that your views suck on drug legalization, or that y’all are so uptight about prostitution, or don’t accept it when we libertarians say “No intervention in the economy, means precisely that, no intervention.”

Nope, it’s y’all’s wimpiness that we despise the most. You all are too damned polite. You don’t cuss. You cower when the Left accuses GOP leaders like Bush of being a “Nazi.” Do you hit back? Do you ever treat them with the same harshness that they treat you? No. You soooooooo worried about your “credibility.”

Yeah, some on our side are tinfoil hat wearers: The Ron Paul-tards, for example, and the Lew Rockwell Anti-Federal Reserve conspiratorialists, and so on.

But at least those of us on the libertarian side, aren’t afraid to say how we feel and piss off the liberals.

You conservatives can be so g-dammned wimpy sometimes. Thankfully, you have us libertarians around to speak the truth that deep down in your hearts you know is true.

ericdondero on November 28, 2008 at 8:10 AM

Or, moreover, the Radical Muslims know that Obama is one of them.

ericdondero on November 28, 2008 at 8:01 AM

Obama’s parents were likely intelligence operatives. He is as “radical” as anyone in the Saudi royal family. No one in the Muslim community sees him as one of them, except for maybe his Kenyan family.

We have never heard from anyone who knew Obama in HS or college. You know about Wayne Root’s statement. Obama is not a closet Muslim, or if he is, the jihadis see him as an apostate, even factoring in the “lie for Islam” wink nudge.

Obama is owned, and he has no problem with that. He grew up in that system, and he has a lot of issues. He’s CRAZY.

chunderroad on November 28, 2008 at 8:38 AM

Maybe it will distract the ones who have been killing Christians who refuse to convert to Hinduism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,455066,00.html

God help us. There is so much hatred in this world.

pannw on November 27, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Yes, it is a fact that a few Hindus have done bad things. And as a gay Jew, I do have a long list of grievances against Christianity. But we have to look at the big picture of which religion actively promotes violence today and who is thus guilty of 99% of religious violence. And Buddhism certainly isn’t the religion to be blamed.

It’s intellectually dishonest to claim the religions are equally guilty without some actual evidence. While I will gladly that all religions including Jainism have within the potential be the religious equivalent of Naziism, and I’ll admit that Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism have all their Nazi phases, I will not admit that any are in such a phase today. We don’t live in the Christian Dark Ages, First Temple Judaism, or Imperial Japan (perhaps a bad example as Shintoism may be more to blame than Buddhism). We live in the 21st century and have to fight what is evil now.

thuja on November 28, 2008 at 8:54 AM

Tarpley’s book raised some interesting concerns about Obama: It uses the historic precedent of the Carter administration as an analogy to Obama’s possible future administrative tendencies. The Brzezinski connection and its diplomatic implications is the main idea of the whole book. There are other points made about fascism and neo fascism, Obama’s advisors and their backgrounds, and parallels between Obama’s campaign and the “rose revolution” of Georgia and the “orange revolution” in Ukraine.

Look at Biden’s comments:

“This is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy,”

“We’re gonna have to make some incredibly tough decisions in the first two years.”

“We do not have the military capacity, nor have we ever, quite frankly, in the last 20 years, to dictate outcomes. It’s so much more important than that. It’s so much more complicated than that. And Barack gets it.”

“We’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis.”

“It’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”

Tarpley comments, “This adumbrates a false flag terror op with Obama coming forward and announcing that the guilty party was: Russia, China, Pakistan, Sudan, etc., i.e. states from the new enemies’ list, not the old one. Obama will not be believed by many, so he needs his true believers to mobilize.”

Biden claimed Pakistan is “bristling with nuclear weapons.”

Brzezinski is only targeting Pakistan because it is a Chinese ally, according to Tarpley.

Tarpley says Trilateral founder and perennial Russophobe Brzezinski wants to push China out of Africa, thus forcing the Chinese to invade Siberia for the oil they need. Obama and Biden are already busy playing the Africa card. Obama cousin Odinga is involved in an Orange Revolution or people- power coup against the Kenyan government. And Biden is Washington’s war on Sudan man.

“I promise you, you all are gonna be sitting here a year from now going, ‘Oh my God, why are they there in the polls? Why is the polling so down?’”

Obama’s support and poll numbers will collapse even faster as he attacks and betrays his own base in service of the Trilateral-Wall Street agenda of more and more bailouts.

The best we can hope for from the awful alternatives is a partisan gridlock. Cross your fingers for a 2010 tsunami.

Until then, gird your loins.

chunderroad on November 28, 2008 at 9:03 AM

AP:
Just a suggestion: Since this is a very fluid story and you’re continuing to update it, you might want to time stamp the updates.
Thanks for working hard over the Thxgivng holiday.

Chewy the Lab on November 28, 2008 at 9:22 AM

ericdondero on November 28, 2008 at 8:10 AM

Bob Barr doesn’t agree with you. You sound more like a neocon instead of a Libertarian.

See the writings of

Neocon Peg on November 27, 2008 at 11:16 PM

for good examples

kanda on November 28, 2008 at 9:34 AM

1446 A huge blast has occurred at Nariman House, India’s Times Now TV says. Five or six gunmen are thought to be still inside the Taj hotel, it adds.

OK, this is silly. Pull your fingers out India. It shouldn’t take 3 days to secure a hotel.

lodge on November 28, 2008 at 9:54 AM

Rowan Williams, A/B of Canterbury and head eunuch of the Anglican Communion expresses his outrage and tepid blush of anger over the actions of his soul mates, Islamic conquerers, who wish to spread evil in the guise of religious cult.

Hening on November 28, 2008 at 10:40 AM

Bob Barr doesn’t agree with you. You sound more like a neocon instead of a Libertarian.

See the writings of

Neocon Peg on November 27, 2008 at 11:16 PM
for good examples

kanda on November 28, 2008 at 9:34 AM

No Kanda, not at all. In fact, I can’t stand NeoCons. They’re a bunch of welfare state appeasors, and are just fine with the Nanny-state intrusions on our civil liberties like seat belt laws, gambling restrictions, smoking bans, keeping prostitution illegal, ect…

Real libertarians oppose the War on Islamo-Fascism, precisely because of civil liberties. Who is it that’s the most diehard anti-sexual freedom crusaders in the world? Islamo-Fascists! They want to force our wives/girlfriends to wear ugly black burqas, cut off the genitals of gay guys, censor our free speech, stone prostitutions in town squares, and jail marijuana smokers for life.

Libertarians are fiercely opposed to anyone who wants to infringe upon our civil liberties, and Islamo-Fascists are on the top of the List.

BTW, Barry Goldwater was also “fiscally conservative/socially tolerant” yet strong on Defense.

ericdondero on November 28, 2008 at 11:32 AM

Now the Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, is posturing in front of the Oberoi. Ugh, I can’t f***ing stand him. Indian politicians are worse than ours. They have been responsible for all sorts of rabble rousing that led to many people dying in riots.

mram on November 27, 2008 at 11:39 PM

Really? What channel was that? I met him up in Ahmedabad during the Navatri festival. He is definitely got himself a following…

Renwaa on November 28, 2008 at 11:49 AM

chunderroad on November 28, 2008 at 9:03 AM

Finally someone around here is making some sense…

Thank you.

SaintOlaf on November 28, 2008 at 12:38 PM

When will our political elites begin using the phrase War on Islamofascism instead of the Milquetoast-ish War on Terror?
Terror is a tactic, not an enemy.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:56 AM

I completely agree and can relate to your frustration. I was watching Fox News regarding the situation in India and some US government official (not sure if he was a congressman or a senator) being interviewed described the attackers as “individuals with a grievance.”

It is precisely this warped logic, denial, and perpetual hesitation to properly identify who our enemies are and what their goals are that have me a bit more than frustrated. The constant denial by those in charge of our government and the left-tards to identify our enemies as what they truly are (Islamo-facists) and the consistent failure to inform Americans as to what the goal of our enemies really is (a world dominated and subservient to Sharia law) has severely hampered our ability to fight and be victorious in this war against fascist Islam!

I cannot for the life of me understand or comprehend why so many are in denial of what is really going on, who we are at war with, what our enemies true goals are, and what is at stake for us as a nation and a people. To say it is frustrating to me is an understatement of biblical proportions!

I fear it will take a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before those in perpetual denial will get their heads out of their azzes and realize what is going on, what is at stake, and will see our enemies for what they are (Islamo-fascists) and will unite with those of us that have understood from the beginning what is really at stake so we may finally stand united to defeat Islamo-fascism once and for all!

I only hope and pray it doesn’t take a nuclear holocaust to get our nation to wake up and unite, but then again I thought the tragic 9-11 attacks had opened everyone’s eyes and united us, unfortunately I was woefully unaware of the power PC had over our nation and how PC would so effectively blind and neuter our ability to do what needs to be done to protect our nation and way of life.

I keep hoping those still in denial will finally wake up, but then again I thought Americans would see through Obama’s empty rhetoric and not elect him, but they elected him anyway, therefore I have very little faith those still in denial will wake up before its too late.

Liberty or Death on November 28, 2008 at 1:07 PM

I prefer to call it the “arab/persian/muslim Wars Against Civilization” – APMAC

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2008 at 1:09 PM

Er … APWAC.

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2008 at 1:10 PM

I really messed up both of those acronyms. Just the War Against Civilization should do it, with the note of the enemies being arab/persian/muslim (APM) when needed – though everyone knows that.

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2008 at 1:13 PM

OK, this is silly. Pull your fingers out India. It shouldn’t take 3 days to secure a hotel. lodge on November 28, 2008 at 9:54 AM

If using wartime ROE then no. It’s the stupid PC rules that police/military are forced to adhere to that cause the problem.

From the Gospel of Luke chapter 11
“And there shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars; and upon the earth distress among nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring. Men’s hearts will fail them for fear and for looking upon those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

In the words of BTO, “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.”

Mojave Mark on November 28, 2008 at 1:16 PM

Not if enough of us exercise our second amendment rights!
dhunter on November 27, 2008 at 10:26 PM

If even one person out of ten in a crowded mall is concealed-carrying, the lifespan of these jerkoffs shrinks from days to seconds.

If something like this happens in America, they’ll do like the University shooter did a while back and seek out the place with the tightest anti-self-defense laws to open up. (Possible future slogan: “New York, New York – the target so good they attacked it twice!”)

logis on November 28, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Can someone tell me the war aims of these idiots …. do they really have any except for the hatred of the western, modern world?

SC.Charlie on November 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM

Can someone tell me the war aims of these idiots …. do they really have any except for the hatred of the western, modern world?
SC.Charlie on November 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM

Islam’s prime mandate is territorial: anything you can do to gain land, slaves and converts is “good.” Everything else is secondary to that. The rank-and-file, of course, don’t have any say over what the tactical objectives of any specific operations are; they think of themselves as soldiers with a cause but no country. They glom onto whatever leader they think will advance the general strategic goal of Islam the most, and then just do what they’re told.

For the terrorist leaders, it’s all a power game. They gain contributions and followers through these bloody PR stunts. Think of it as like a corporation that takes the expression “there’s no such thing as bad publicity” to its psychotic extreme.

logis on November 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM

I fear it will take a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before those in perpetual denial will get their heads out of their azzes and realize what is going on…

Nope. Not even then.

SunSword on November 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM

I fear it will take a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before those in perpetual denial will get their heads out of their azzes and realize what is going on… Nope. Not even then. SunSword on November 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM

Right O. It will be couched as our fault. And… how will retaliating bring back our dead from the grave? Obama will urge restraint on our part.

Hope and change baby.

Mojave Mark on November 28, 2008 at 3:42 PM

They call them gunmen and they call them terrorists but I have yet to hear the words”Muslim Extremist.” Has anyone heard the term used?

mindhacker on November 28, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Can someone tell me the war aims of these idiots …. do they really have any except for the hatred of the western, modern world?

SC.Charlie on November 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM

…isn’t that enough?

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 5:57 PM

For the terrorist leaders, it’s all a power game. They gain contributions and followers through these bloody PR stunts. Think of it as like a corporation that takes the expression “there’s no such thing as bad publicity” to its psychotic extreme.

logis on November 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM

…that is a stunningly accurate assessment….

…think “street gangs” here…they’re fighting, ultimately, for “cred”….

…and, has any of the drippingly self-righteous pundits internationally dared to point out the whole “get whitey” angle of this?

…they’re getting revenge on the folks who drug them, kicking and screaming, into the 20th Century…now in the 21st, they’re getting revenge….

…so…expell their sons from our western universities, stop sending them or selling them any information or medical technology, and begin talking to them as one would talk to misbehaving children…they’ve earned it….

Puritan1648 on November 28, 2008 at 6:03 PM

… before those in perpetual denial will get their heads out of their azzes and realize what is going on, what is at stake, and will see our enemies for what they are (Islamo-fascists) …
Liberty or Death on November 28, 2008 at 1:07 PM

With respect I think you are inadvertently encouraging the very error for which you justifiably castigate others. The term “Islamo-fascists” is a better description than the vacuuous term of “terrorist”, for example, but it still does not squarely link the problem to the core of Islam. Yet the core of Islam (the ideas expounded by the ignorant, murderous, thieving founder of that ideology) are the core of the problem.

In my mind, directing our attacks at “Islamo-fascists” is a little like attacking the vapour trail behind the missile or attacking the waves that crash against the shoreline in the wake of a passing battleship, or shooting at the turds dropped by the man-eating tiger.

”Muslim Extremist.” Has anyone heard the term used?
mindhacker on November 28, 2008 at 5:17 PM

In fairness to those reporting, I doubt if it has yet been established beyond reasonable doubt that the attackers are genuinely Muslims. It is conceivable that non-Muslims could be deliberately trying to stir up trouble between India and Pakistan.

However, the facts that we all naturally associate such violence with Muslims, and most of us immediately think of Mulsims as the most likely perpetrators of these attacks, partly explains why we shouldn’t add the term “extremists”; violence is a very natural part of Islam — not extreme at all.

Additional qualifying terms distract attention from the real enemy and the only sensible target.

The problem is not “extremist Islam”
The problem is not “fascist Islam”
The problem is Islam.

YiZhangZhe on November 28, 2008 at 6:23 PM

What value of a distraction has this valueless assault been?

BL@KBIRD on November 28, 2008 at 6:27 PM

I was going to wait until the tragedy in Mumbai (formerly Bombai) India was over before writing my thoughts down, but I couldn’t wait. As I write this, it is said that over 150 people are dead. The courageous Indian commandos are still fighting their way through the Taj Hotel clearing out the remaining terrorist murderers and still rescuing hostages. The exact group that is responsible for this mass atrocity is still unclear, but one thing is clear; they are Muslims. Their targets were Westerners, British, Americans, and yes, Jews. One of the locations raided was Chabat House, a Jewish center. According to news reports, hostages, including Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, were murdered in cold blood as commandos closed in. I am outraged, and I am fed up with the excuses. It is long overdue, but we need to call a spade a spade and demand that the Muslim world rise up and remove this evil from its house.

By any means necessary.

Mumbai is now India’s 9-11. We have suffered ours. We reacted, and at least, we can now say that two murderous regimes have been driven from power. Spain had their own 9-11. They reacted and elected a cowardly government that promptly pulled their forces out of Iraq. Britain had theirs and now prostrates itself at the feet of a hateful Muslim minority that spits in the face of British society as they demand Shariah law.

This latest incident is pretty much the final blow for me personally in trying to appeal to decent Muslims to take a stand. It is not easy. I know decent Muslims. I teach Muslim students, mostly from Saudi Arabia, who seem quite nice. I listen to the words of American Muslim leaders who speak of moderation and say they condemn terrorism. I have heard President Bush describe Islam as a religion of peace as he meets Muslim leaders. One of those leaders, whom he has invited to the White House, is Imam Muzammil Saddiqi, former head of the Islamic Society of North America and now head of the Islamic Society of Orange County-himself an Indian.

Last week, I attended a joint Jewish-Muslim discussion at Chapman University, where Dr Siddiqi spoke for Islam. (See post of last week). Dr Siddiqi is considered a “moderate Muslim”, who decries terror. Yet, he has made statements in the past regarding Jihad and Shariah that many Westerners might find troubling. In the 1990s, he hosted the “Blind Sheihk” Rahman at his mosque. Let’s just say I wasn’t convinced at Siddiqi’s words last week.

I have just checked the websites of CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America, and the Islamic Society of Orange County. Only the Islamic Society of North America has a statement on Mumbai, condemning the attacks and offering prayers for the victims. That is all well and good, but nowhere-nowhere is there any mention of the fact that the perpetrators were Muslims. There is also no mention of the attack on Chabat House. This is insufficient. As for CAIR and the Islamic Society of Orange County, there is nothing on their websites about Mumbai (as of this writing). What will they eventually say? What will the Muslim Student Associations at our US universities say about Mumbai when they have their next “Islam Awareness Week”? Will they continue to claim that they are not anti-Jewish, only anti-”Zionist”? That is the constant disclaimer they use, yet the raid on Chabat House puts the lie to that. It is clear that the killers wanted to include Jews (in India) among their targets. Why?

Because they hate Jews.

So what is it that Muslims in America must say and do, you ask? What is needed is for them to stand up and publicly condemn the MUSLIMS who are carrying out these atrocities in India and around the world in the name of Islam. Muslim leaders need to tell their congregations and members that if they sympathize with these actions, they are not welcome in their midst. They must give the FBI the names of those in their communities who they suspect to be involved in subversive activities. They must publicly proclaim to the world that they are Americans and will stand with America and defend her against ISLAMIC terror.

A few, of course, have stood up and condemned the actions of terrorists acting in the name of Islam. Nonie Darwish and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are a couple that come to mind. They have gone beyond bland statements about “condemning terrorism and that Islam is really a religion of peace”. They call it what it is, and as a result, they will spend the rest of their days-in Western countries even-living with bodyguards and dealing with threats to their lives because they are considered apostates.

You see, people like Darwish and Ali have crossed the line. They have spoken out against Islamic doctrine itself. They have said what people in CAIR and Siddiqi cannot say; that so much of what is in the Qu’ran is nothing more than an incitement to hate, shun and murder those who are not Muslims.

You will not hear these Muslim leaders, even if they are “moderates”, say that the very words of the Prophet Mohammed are wrong, and that they are not appropriate in the modern world. The problem is that the Prophet Mohammed was a warrior. That is an undeniable fact. Mohammed was not a mythical figure who may or may not have existed. He, indeed, existed, and he spread Islam at the point of a sword. As a result, thousands of people died in the Holy Land. The words in the Qu’ran are his words. If there are conflicts and contradictions, then the latest writing takes precedent.

Mohammed stated that Muslims should not take unbelievers as friends. Almost every page and Sura in the Qu’ran speaks of non-believers burning in Hell, a point constantly reinforced. There, of course, is the famous and oft-quoted Hadith that speaks of trees and bushes saying, “there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.”

There is the principle of Shariah law, which no Western democracy could ever allow to be adopted; honor killings, stonings, limited rights for women and non-believers, taxes for dhimmis, death for the “crime of apostasy”, and on and on. Islam is a belief system that is designed to control every aspect of life including the very law itself.

You see, there is a limit as to what the Muzammil Siddiqis of the world can say when they “condemn terrorism”. There is a line they cannot cross. How can they engage in a theological debate with the so-called “extremists”? Is it not the “extremists” who are following the teachings of Mohammed-to the letter? Thirty years ago, we were calling them “fundamentalists”-for a reason. We seemed to have dropped that term. Why? Because it would mean that they are merely following the teachings of Mohammed and Islam.

I think the time is long since past when we in the non-Muslim world wake up and recognize the unavoidable fact; that our enemy is not just a group of a few thousand fanatics around the world-it is an idea. It is an idea that can be found within the covers of a book written by a man who had no concept of a larger world outside the region where he lived and fought.

It could be argued that Islam was in a centuries-long slumber-from which it is awakening with a vengeance. And it is growing. In mosques and hadrassas all over the Muslim world-and in many cases in Western countries as well, children are being taught that according to the Qu’ran, they have mortal enemies-non-believers and especially Jews. Many young Muslims in Western countries are being taught that their mission is to spread Islam until the day comes when Islam will rule that country-and indeed the world.

I have heard many say that Islam needs a Reformation. A nice thought, but it would require more than just “reform”. Martin Luther, in his Reformation, was rebelling against a corrupt Vatican that had lost its way. He was not rebelling against the Bible or the teachings of Jesus Christ. To reform Islam would requiring rejecting many passages in the Qu’ran and many of the teachings of Mohammed as simply not being applicable to a modern world-and as being morally wrong. But how do believers decide that their religion does not contain Eternal Truth? That is a big leap.

Meanwhile, so many in the West delude themselves into thinking that this phenomena we call terrorism does not represent true Islam. They insist that Islam is a religion of peace, and that we who bring up the inconvenient facts about the life and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, the words in the Qu’ran and the words of so many Muslim clerics, are somehow Islamophobes, and that Islamophobia must be fought with the same vigor as anti-Semitism, racism and homophobia. Last week, I listened to a respected rabbi, a decent man who only desires peace and understanding, say that very thing at Chapman University.

Let me set this straight. Aside from the fact that the word “Islamophobia” itself means “fear of Islam”, an understandable feeling given world events, I do not believe that individual Muslims should be persecuted. They have a right to practice their religion (indeed, there are some aspects of Islam I find admirable) as long as it does not conflict with the rights of others and local laws. Certainly, there are many Muslims who are used to living around non-Muslims and have no desire to be engaged in violence in any way. Surely, many older Muslims have spent their lives picking and choosing which parts of the Qu’ran they choose to obey. Yet, many are afraid to speak out because of the fear of violent retribution. I have long resisted the temptation to repeat the mocking statement of others when these events happen as, “the religion of peace strikes again.” Yet, what other phrase is appropriate?

Yes, it has reached the point where Muslims must take a stand if they want to be accepted by the rest of the world. It is not just in America or Britain or India. Thai Muslims must stand with the majority and reject Muslim insurrection in that country’s south. Filipino Muslims must do the same. This is not a call for persecution of innocent Muslims. But how can they be accepted by the larger societies in which they live as minorities if they remain silent? Do they really want to live isolated from the larger society? Some, I believe, actually do.

Meanwhile as the 9-11s, the Londons the Madrids now Mumbais continue to add up, more and more people can only turn against Islam and become “Islamophobes”. And fewer and fewer people will be able to insist that Islam is really “a religion of peace”.

gary fouse
fousesquawk

gary fouse on November 28, 2008 at 6:42 PM

but we need to call a spade a spade and demand that the Muslim world rise up and remove this evil from its house.
gary fouse on November 28, 2008 at 6:42 PM

By all means lets have some plain talking, but in that case we need to stop pretending that there is some form of Islam that is constructive and with which we can live harmoniously.

Muslims cannot remove the evil from their house, because their house (Islam) is built of evil on a foundation of evil. To ask or expect Muslims to remove the evil from their house is about as pointless as asking or expecting the shark to remove its teeth and stop biting, or asking a leech to stop sucking blood.

It is the nature of Islam to spread evil. An Islam without evil is no Islam at all.

Islam is a parasite. It is its nature to suck the humanity out of every person and society that it encounters with the sole goal of propagating itself. What people mistakenly think of as a peaceful version of Islam is merely the pupae stage in the life cycle of the parasite. The “peaceful” Islam in any society nurtures, and then gives way to the aggressive stage, which will then infect another heart and mind and another society and this will continue until all societies are thus infected (and reduced to misery), or until the free societies resist with a powerful Islamicide, or until the second coming of Jesus Christ.

In any case, the parasite is not going to be the one to use the disinfectant.

YiZhangZhe on November 28, 2008 at 7:26 PM

Shit’s going down in the Taj’s Wasabi Restaurant and on the ground floor below it again.

Mr Tips on November 28, 2008 at 8:55 PM

Heavy black smoke pouring out of the windows, and a flurry of gunfire.

Mr Tips on November 28, 2008 at 8:57 PM

Man. They just shot some terrorist and he fell out of a window on live TV. Awesome. Another one bites the dust.

Guardian on November 28, 2008 at 9:41 PM

Hopefully that’s who it was. NSG special forces are usually in all black gear, so it could have been one of them instead.

Word is that it’s all over except for the cleanup and extinguishing the fire in that ballroom corner of the Heritage building.

Mr Tips on November 28, 2008 at 9:48 PM

NSG special forces are usually in all black gear

That sucks. I’m pretty sure the guy was dressed in all black.

Guardian on November 28, 2008 at 10:17 PM

It’s nice to see that most people here get it. The root of the problem is Islam itself. Now we have to get out and start saying this in our classrooms, to our neighbours and families, on blogs other than this one. Eventually it will build up enoughy momentum to counter the PC bullshit that the media and “experts” on the TV blather on about.
I hope someone has the time time and energy to go about the heartbreaking task of restoring the old Taj hotel itself.
Otherwise, sorry India, but I think the world will shrug and go on with their hands over their ears, eyes, and mouths. You need to be a bit more pro-active: identify a terrorist training camp in Pakistan (you know where they are), and blow it to pieces. Then sit back and watch the rest of the world ask the Pakis to “show restraint”. Nice to have the boot on the other foot. Oh, and feel free to blow up as many “British” jihadis and inflict as much collateral damage as you can.

Fortunata on November 28, 2008 at 10:26 PM

That sucks. I’m pretty sure the guy was dressed in all black.

Times of India says it’s one of the terrorists:

Seems plausible, given where he fell out and where the firefighters and trucks pulled up.

Mr Tips on November 28, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Times of India says it’s one of the terrorists:

Aha.. Isn’t that Achmed on his way to meet his 72 virgins?

macncheez on November 29, 2008 at 1:06 AM

OK, this is silly. Pull your fingers out India. It shouldn’t take 3 days to secure a hotel. lodge on November 28, 2008 at 9:54 AM

If using wartime ROE then no. It’s the stupid PC rules that police/military are forced to adhere to that cause the problem.

From the Gospel of Luke chapter 11
“And there shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars; and upon the earth distress among nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring. Men’s hearts will fail them for fear and for looking upon those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

In the words of BTO, “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.”

Mojave Mark on November 28, 2008 at 1:16 PM

It’s not PC that’s causing them to take so long. It’s
1. The possibility of hostages
2. Not wanting to allow the terrorists to destroy the building which is a historical monument (was constructed by J N Tata as a snub to the King of Britain in the early 1900s)

The terrorists want to blow it up like their own J W Marriott in Pakistan was. We don’t want to let that happen.

Besides, an all out offensive on terrorists holed up with hostages is a Russian tactic, not an Indian one. We take our time and finish the job effectively.

Some of you here may like what has become a very popular saying in the Army here (among those involved in Counter Terrorism ops in Jammu and Kashmir) …

“Forgiving the terrorists is God’s job … making sure he gets to meet them ASAP is ours.”

Those of you who’re worried about Bharat (that’s what we Hindus call our country) capitulating to terror, you don’t know our history. My civilization has been here for more than 8000 years. We’ve been fighting Muslim invaders for nearly 1400 years now, and we’re still here. Bharat is not going anywhere. Bharat is eternal.

Jester on November 29, 2008 at 4:35 AM

thuja
And as a gay Jew, I do have a long list of grievances against Christianity.

Um, make that with the BIBLE
Old and New testaments.

ergo, with GOD

John The Baptist on November 29, 2008 at 5:02 AM

just saying

John The Baptist on November 29, 2008 at 5:07 AM

My civilization has been here for more than 8000 years. We’ve been fighting Muslim invaders for nearly 1400 years now, and we’re still here. Bharat is not going anywhere. Bharat is eternal.

So I guess Vande Mataram is in order

macncheez on November 29, 2008 at 5:11 AM

So I guess Vande Mataram is in order

macncheez on November 29, 2008 at 5:11 AM

Hear hear!
Vande Mataram!

Jester on November 29, 2008 at 6:01 AM

For those who are unaware of how and why pakistan has become the global distributor of islamic terrorism franchises ( with ample help from Kissinger and everyone after him, over the decades), here is what pakistan is dying to avenge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Pngki49b8&feature=related

Hear hear!
Vande Mataram!

Balley Balley

macncheez on November 29, 2008 at 7:24 AM

But the irrational conviction that nothing can be known unless it has been determined by a court and jury isn’t just silly, it’s dangerous.”

Just Superb

macncheez on November 29, 2008 at 8:11 AM

Mark Steyn is just so lucid and clear in his thinking – he does not pussyfoot around at all when it comes to recognizing the evil that is Islamofascism.

Political correctness is the first enemy that needs to be defeated on the road to eliminating Islamic terrorism.

nagee76 on November 29, 2008 at 6:02 PM

“300 feared dead”

BallisticBob on November 30, 2008 at 9:57 AM

It’s not PC that’s causing them to take so long. It’s
1. The possibility of hostages
2. Not wanting to allow the terrorists to destroy the building which is a historical monument (was constructed by J N Tata as a snub to the King of Britain in the early 1900s)

Jester on November 29, 2008 at 4:35 AM

Actually, no. It’s the fact that the Indian law enforcement structure is impotent. If your counter-terrorism agents and local police will not fire their weapons at terrorists who are slaughtering civilians in the public square, then you don’t have a counter-terrorism unit or a local police department.

The terrorists aren’t terrible concerned about parking tickets.

Jaibones on November 30, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Actually, no. It’s the fact that the Indian law enforcement structure is impotent. If your counter-terrorism agents and local police will not fire their weapons at terrorists who are slaughtering civilians in the public square, then you don’t have a counter-terrorism unit or a local police department.

The terrorists aren’t terrible concerned about parking tickets.

Jaibones on November 30, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Yes, of course, one article by a journalist proves the authorities did nothing. The terrorists, having reached the end of their ammunition stocks, just popped each other in the head and went to their 72 virgins.

Perhaps the cop mentioned in the article didn’t fire his weapon because he wasn’t in a very good position to do so. Perhaps he didn’t want to draw attention to himself because he had civilians nearby. Not my place to second guess him.

Jester on December 1, 2008 at 5:18 AM

Yes, of course, one article by a journalist proves the authorities did nothing.

Jester on December 1, 2008 at 5:18 AM

No. Watching the situation unfold as it did, over days, showed that the authorities did nothing – nothing effective, for sure. But, then again, it was a whole ten terrorists, so …

progressoverpeace on December 1, 2008 at 5:46 AM

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