Quote of the day

posted at 10:00 pm on November 26, 2008 by Allahpundit

Obama: There’s the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven’t embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they’re going to hell.

Falsani: You don’t believe that?

Obama: I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can’t imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That’s just not part of my religious makeup.


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A Christian friend of mine said that if I don’t believe in God, I must not believe in Heaven or Hell. I said, on the contrary, no…Heaven is dying peacefully with the knowledge that on balance, you’ve lived a good life and touched others positively…Hell is dying bitter and angry with the knowledge that you’ve been an asshole all your life.

flipflop on November 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM

And what happens when you wake up on the other side?
“Hell is that place where people who want nothing to do with God finally get their wish.” C.S. Lewis

Amendment X on November 27, 2008 at 8:40 AM

I found it hard to believe that 53% of the country would consign five-fifths of the U.S.A to hell.

Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

leetpriest on November 27, 2008

THAT is funny!!

JellyToast on November 27, 2008 at 8:41 AM

The crux of the argument is this:
As believers we know that we are right, but don’t have to be.
Unbelievers had better be right.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 8:43 AM

So, he is now a Biblical expert? The press would have attacked G.W.Bush for making any sort of religious pronunciation at all no matter the context. For The One, they marvel at his perspicacity!

Warner Todd Huston on November 26, 2008 at 11:17 PM

So true. A few years back I remember hearing of “experts” who claimed the cult of Elvis roughly equated with early christianity. What will they make of Obamunism?

That having been said, I actually agree with The One on this, but then, I’ve never claimed to be christian. Thank God we live in a country where freedom of religion and freedom from religion is still allowed.

TedInATL on November 27, 2008 at 8:44 AM

A fair statement by Obama. The Universalist idea that Jesus came to redeem all of mankind seems more consistent with the concept of a loving God.

Personally, I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally.

Kasper Hauser on November 27, 2008 at 8:55 AM

The smart political move would be to avoid weighing in on controversial religious topics. He handled this conversation badly–more evidence of his rookie status.

Dee2008 on November 27, 2008 at 9:07 AM

Answering such questions is above his paygrade

vcferlita on November 27, 2008 at 9:20 AM

MB4 on November 26, 2008 at 11:19 PM

I’m sure glad Mark Twain had no say in building his god. I wonder where Mark Twain is now? Where ever he is, he knows the truth.

abcurtis on November 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM

Personally, I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally

.

I bet you take the parts that you like literally.

jjjen on November 27, 2008 at 9:28 AM

Dee2008 on November 27, 2008 at 9:07 AM

Yep. He showed about as much political astuteness as Bubba, Jr., Jeff Dunham’s redneck puppet.

There is no doubt in my mind that his church attendance was nothing but a political ploy to ingraciate himself with the Chicago Black population.

Oprah tried it for a couple of years for the same reason.

Simply a means to an end.

kingsjester on November 27, 2008 at 9:30 AM

Let the the left be petty. Get off the social crap and onto the issues at hand people! We’re an inch from dropping all our children off into a sort of he11!

Griz on November 27, 2008 at 9:33 AM

A fair statement by Obama. The Universalist idea that Jesus came to redeem all of mankind seems more consistent with the concept of a loving God.

Personally, I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally.

Kasper Hauser on November 27, 2008 at 8:55 AM

So how can you have faith in God if you have no faith in His Word? Is the Bible (in your worldview) written by people under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, or just some nice stories? How do you deal with 2 Timothy 3:16 –

All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Was Paul just goofing when he wrote this? Do you know Paul was trained personally by Jesus?
We know God through His word. If his word is worthless, then God is, and he is a fraud and a phony and not worthy of worship.
Do you know God chooses whom he will save, that these redeemed ones are called the elect of God? Do you know you have free will to become part of the elect? Are you willing to rely on a God who would let you, a sinner dripping in the sewage of your sin, into his holy and divine presence? If that’s the case, we have no need of Christ, and all those who accept him as savior are just being deceived. We can live any way we choose and God will let us all in. This is heresy, it is proven untrue in God’s word. It’s not my belief, it is fact. I will not let my eternal well-being rest on my good works alone. There is nothing I can to to clean myself up enough to come into the presence of a holy and perfect God. Isaiah says all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Here is the Hebrew interpretation of “filthy rags.”
You’ll be surprised at its meaning.
Well, I’ve preached my sermon for the day.
TTFN.

abcurtis on November 27, 2008 at 9:36 AM

Hell is for Joe the plumber.

mike_NC9 on November 27, 2008 at 9:48 AM

I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally

There are a million religions in the world, & you demonstrate how they get started. Simply imagine how you’d like a god or gods to be, & viola! A god made in your image.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 9:48 AM

fogw on November 26, 2008 at 10:39 PM

Then the child you have described has simply followed God’s Laws, as they have been written in all of our hearts, which is described in the Bible. That child would be judged according to his knowledge. Many times, the holy spirit has already been at work… and it is simply the hearing of the Word that everything makes sense.

The scenario you have presented is normally presented by nonbelievers… so I will have to assume for now that this is the case with you.

Many on this thread have presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the Savior. You know this, and will be judged accordingly. You will be judged based on whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior. Everyone will be judged justly, for God is not only the God of love, but also the God of justice. You are not that child presented in your scenario. You have knowledge of salvation, and will be judged on your own merits.

I will pray that you are saved. If not, I will pray for your salvation.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM

Jesus said “I have other sheep” He’s the Good Shepherd.
‘nuf said.

Little Boomer on November 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM

to somehow burn for all eternity

The Bible teaches that no human will be punished for eternity:
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm
Only followers of Jesus have eternal life.
The lost are punished only as much as they deserve, & then they are annihilated.
Only fallen angels will suffer forever.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 9:52 AM

Personally, I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally.

Kasper Hauser on November 27, 2008 at 8:55 AM

Since the Bible is the Word of God… then you contradict yourself and prove yourself not a believer.

A true believer hungers for the Word, and strongly desires to know more about the God that he serves, and the Savior that makes the way for him.

Read about judgment towards the end of Matthew 25.

There will be many who call him Lord that will be separated to his left side. But he will say… “I never knew you.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 9:54 AM

I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

Not much way to misinterpret that.

Squiggy on November 27, 2008 at 9:55 AM

“the life”.

**sigh**

Squiggy on November 27, 2008 at 9:56 AM

I have far too much faith in God to take the bible literally.

Rather than inventing a god in my image, I will trust in his word. This is a book that many, while trying to disprove it, have eventually trusted in it.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 9:57 AM

I’ve found that few people that I have met in my life (even those who claim to be Christian) have much understanding of the Bible story.

I want to answer those who pointed out things such as

Uh, if he already knows what we are going to do, and also what is in our hearts, then why would he condemn us?

We either have free will, and are thus judged by our beliefs and actions… or it is predestined, and our acts are preordained by the creator and thus cannot be judged by a Just God…

sorry, can’t belive in a God that does not make sense.

Romeo13 on November 26, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Omniscience doesn’t mean predestination. God is not bound by time…he knows all because he’s already seen it (don’t hurt yourself wrapping your brain around it). There’s a difference between preordaining and knowing. We sometimes know when a kid will make a bad decision before the kid does…should the kid not be judged for it? It was still his choice. Predestination would be if God chose for you.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

MB4 on November 26, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Epicurus tried and failed to understand the meaning of free will and the purpose of evil. God, being love, created man so that he could love him. Love is not one-way, in other words, the only way love is true is if it is returned willingly. So, love requires choice (you can’t force someone to love you…that’s not love). So God created a choice. You could choose him or not him (good or evil respectively).

God could prevent evil, but at what cost? God could stop the murderer, but then would he not be denying choice (and thus a chance at love)? Furthermore, it is said that the wages of sin is death and all have sinned. Bad things happen because the world has fallen into sin (long ago, don’t sweat it).

I’m rambling, so to make it short. (I know by stopping now I’m leaving logic holes that I’ve no time nor energy to explain, that and posting replies on blogs never changes any minds…but it makes me feel better)

The answer to Epicurus is “God is able but unwilling because it is not in our best interest that he stop evil.” This also shows how Mark Twain missed the mark.

Pattosensei on November 27, 2008 at 9:58 AM

“But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matt. 7:14)

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 10:03 AM

Jesus said “I have other sheep” He’s the Good Shepherd.
‘nuf said.

Little Boomer on November 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM

And if Jesus is the shepard… THEY STILL CAME THROUGH HIM!

This passage only indicates that there are many believers that we do not know about, that are hidden from our sight. It is similar to the story of Elijah. Elijah calls out to the Lord, that he is the only one left. God tells him that “Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel – all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him.”

The passage has nothing to do with what you claim. It does not contradict Jesus’ own words “No one comes to the Father except through me.”

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 10:10 AM

You know, for all that has been written here (I read the whole thing), I find one point missing:
Entitlement.
This statement by Berry implies a belief in entitlement. That everything is yours for the asking, unless you do something to deserve having it taken away.
There is a great deal of uncertainty as to who the real BHO is, but this seems to be a recurring theme.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 10:12 AM

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 10:03 AM

Happy Thanksgiving, Dude!

I, too, strive to have a personal relationship with Him.
I prayed this morning for the President-Elect, that he truly finds Him and that he makes the right decisions for the sake of our country. I also pray that the Lord does not take his hand of protection off us.

kingsjester on November 27, 2008 at 10:13 AM

Then why call him God?

Why does God not punish evil immediately? If he did, you, Epicurus, & I would have been destroyed in Hell long ago.
I’m so thankful on this ThanksGiving Day for His mercy!

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Jesus said “I have other sheep” He’s the Good Shepherd.
‘nuf said.

Little Boomer on November 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM

Since Jesus is the shepherd… THEY STILL CAME THROUGH HIM!

This passage is similar to the story of Elijah. Elijah called out to God that he was the only one left. God told him that he was not the only one left, but that he had a reserve of 7,000 that have not bent their knees to Baal.

This passage does not mean what you claim. It does not contradict Jesus’ other words that say “No one comes to the Father, except through me.

‘nuf said.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 10:17 AM

Happy Thanksgiving, Dude!

I, too, strive to have a personal relationship with Him.
I prayed this morning for the President-Elect, that he truly finds Him and that he makes the right decisions for the sake of our country. I also pray that the Lord does not take his hand of protection off us.

kingsjester on November 27, 2008 at 10:13 A

Thanks jester and the same to you and yours,
Today is the day we give thanks to Him for our blessings and troubles, for they truly make us His.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 10:23 AM

I find it hard to believe that anyone would endorse the Weathermen who wanted to consign millions of Americans to reeducation camps and exterminate twenty-five million more. What kind of nut would hang out with Weathermen? What kind of person would have that in his political makeup?

Tantor on November 27, 2008 at 10:26 AM

Matthew 7:12-29 (NASB):

Jesus said, “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

Thank you, Lord, for Your goodness and mercy, and for your Word. Your chesed endures forever.

dtestard on November 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM

You say, “Are you sure hell is everlasting?” Yes, because Jesus that the wicked “shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Mt. 25:46). Both heaven and hell are eternal.

The Lord said that hell is a place “where their worm dieth not” (Mk. 9:44, 46, 48). When a body is put into a grave, worms begin to consume it. Once the body is consumed, the worms die. But in hell, the worms that consume the bodies will never die because the bodies will never be totally consumed. In other words, the Lord was saying that the unrelieved torment of the body will go on forever in hell. Second, the Lord described hell as a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mk. 9:44, 46, 48). A fire always dies out when there is nothing to give it fuel. But because the fire in hell will never run out of fuel, it will never die out. Hell will be a place of unrelieved torment for both body and soul.

Furthermore, the unrelieved torment in hell will be experienced by different people in varying degrees. Hell will be horrible for everyone there, but some people will suffer more than others. Hebrews 10:29 says, “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant…an unholy thing….” In other words, those who received full knowledge of what Christ did for them but still rejected Him will receive more severe punishment in hell.

I choose not to argue today; I will simply state that this is what I believe because it is clearly taught in Scripture. The idea of eternal hell is repugnant to the human conscience. I find it mortifying. But I don’t pretend to understand God’s plan or His ways. Any sense of morality I have was implanted by Him in me. How can I judge the rightness of the Holy God of all creation? Can the pot accurately judge the Potter?

I believe in original sin. I believe we, the descendants of Adam, the federal-head of the human family, are conceived in sin (Psalms 51:5). We are spiritually dead from the moment of conception. We see through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). There are many mysteries we cannot fathom or fully understand this side of eternity. All we can go by is what His book teaches. We cannot use fallen and fallible intellects to truly understand the Divine. All we can do is trust He will be just.

Romans 9:14-16 says: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. I pray He showers each of you with His mercy.

Happy Thanksgiving!

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 10:34 AM

- Mark Twain

MB4 on November 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Only the foolish quote fools

Mark Twain may have been a literary great, writing many enjoyable stories and anecdotes. But he was a fool about God.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

dtestard on November 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM

I believe that’s the most frightening passage in all of Scripture. Many will die with the false hope that they are in Him. That’s why every man must work out his salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), taking care not to be deceived.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Only the foolish quote fools…

Mark Twain may have been a literary great, writing many enjoyable stories and anecdotes. But he was a fool about God.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM

I like the cut of your jib dominigan.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 10:40 AM

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 10:34 AM

I expected this to come up much sooner.
The “everlasting punishment” for the lost is that once they die in their sins, there is no chance for them ever to be forgiven.
The “fire is not queched” because the devil & his angels will suffer for eternity.
For further Biblical explanation of the fact that only God & his followers live forever, see
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:42 AM

“I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.”

But you had no problem believing he would damn America.

artist on November 27, 2008 at 10:43 AM

I can’t imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.

And that’s how Calvinism died. Most people just couldn’t stomach the idea of infant damnation. They refused to believe in a God who would do such a thing.

What do you think the parson found,
When he got up and stared around?
The poor old chaise in a heap or mound,
As if it had been to the mill and ground!
You see, of course, if you ‘re not a dunce,
How it went to pieces all at once,–
All at once, and nothing first,–
Just as bubbles do when they burst.
End of the wonderful one-hoss-shay.
Logic is logic. That’s all I say.

Bartrams Garden on November 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM

Obama is either an ignorant Christian or not a Christian at all.

Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn’t. There is no nuanced middle ground here. If the Bible is true than BO’s wrong. If BO’s right then the Bible is wrong. It is the rejection of Jesus Christ’s salvation that earns you a ticket to hell. As St. Paul says “we are without excuse.”

Mojave Mark on November 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM

only God & his followers live forever

I should add “& angels”

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:45 AM

And that’s how Calvinism died. Most people just couldn’t stomach the idea of infant damnation. They refused to believe in a God who would do such a thing.

Bartrams Garden on November 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM

People like children, and especially babies. Of all the things that people claim they were born to like, this may be the only one that is true.
Even if such young humans are the most amoral of all, it takes a really screwed up psychology to hate them.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 10:48 AM

Mojave Mark on November 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM

Nicely put, Brother.

I am afraid, as I stated earlier, that Obama’s is a Faith of Convenience. He will only declare Christianity when it is to his advantage.

kingsjester on November 27, 2008 at 10:51 AM

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

FlatFoot on November 27, 2008 at 10:52 AM

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 10:48 AM

Does that explain the prevalence of abortion?

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:42 AM

I’ve read that, but I remain unpersuaded for the “worm dieth not.” In the past I’ve studied this issue carefully and I believe many of the passages used to arrive at the conclusion that hell isn’t eternal are taken out-of-context. However, unlike Obama, I lack the hubris to swear my view is right. There are certain nonnegotiables in the Christian faith (like no man cometh to the Father but through Christ) and then we have secondary matters such as the duration of hell. I don’t believe we should divide over such secondary matters. In the end it will matter little if hell lasts one year or for eternity. I know enough to know I want no part of it.

Soli Deo Gloria

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:04 AM

dtestard on November 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM
flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Amen to both of you!

A few weeks after I was saved (about 7 years ago), I came across Matt 25, which describes the judgment to come. I had read it before, but one word hit me like a ton of bricks. It should absolutely terrify unbelievers.

Read the passage and see if you can pick it out.

Hint: it’s in verse 44.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:05 AM

Does that explain the prevalence of abortion?

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM

Out of sight out of mind.
Why do you think abortion supporters won’t allow images of aborted babies to be displayed publicly?

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:12 AM

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:04 AM

I vaguely remember a line about something like “beware he that can destroy the soul” but I don’t know where it is.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:15 AM

I vaguely remember a line about something like “beware he that can destroy the soul” but I don’t know where it is.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:15 AM

Matthew 10:28 (English Standard Version) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:20 AM

Hint: it’s in verse 44.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:05 AM

What is a stranger dominigan.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM

A few weeks after I was saved (about 7 years ago), I came across Matt 25, which describes the judgment to come. I had read it before, but one word hit me like a ton of bricks. It should absolutely terrify unbelievers.

Read the passage and see if you can pick it out.

Hint: it’s in verse 44.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:05 AM

Well, Matthew 25:44 (ESV) says, Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’

At first blush the word LORD, with all of its implications, ought to terrify. But I am curious which word affected you as an unbeliever.

In the broader context of Matthew 25, the word “eternal” is the one I find most sobering.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:23 AM

What is a stranger dominigan.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM

You just gave me a shiver.

Blessings to all of you, I’m off for turkey and dressing.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:25 AM

Matthew 10:28 (English Standard Version) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:20 AM

That would be it. Seems to imply that the stay in hell is temporary, if only because one does not survive it.
As someone wrote earlier: deletion.
Not that I have any horse in this race.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

No, Paul was not trained personally by Jesus.

And for the rest….I worship a God, not a book.

Kasper Hauser on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

Not that I have any horse in this race.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

Trying hard not to preach, but yes you do.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 11:31 AM

Dominigan, there’s so much about verse 44 (and verse 37) that jump out at me, that I don’t understand. And reading the verses, my only response could be to plead, “Mercy!”

But if I had to guess which word jumped out at you, my guess (from Phil 2:9-11) would be:

“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Happy Thanksgiving!

dtestard on November 27, 2008 at 11:31 AM

Out of sight out of mind.
Why do you think abortion supporters won’t allow images of aborted babies to be displayed publicly?

Abortion-alternative clinics that have ultrasound equipment have a drastically higher success rate.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:31 AM

Seems to imply that the stay in hell is temporary, if only because one does not survive it.

I’ve referred to it a few times in this thread, but in case you haven’t seen it,
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm
has plenty of other passages like it.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

The scenario you have presented is normally presented by nonbelievers… so I will have to assume for now that this is the case with you.

Many on this thread have presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the Savior. You know this, and will be judged accordingly. You will be judged based on whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior. Everyone will be judged justly, for God is not only the God of love, but also the God of justice. You are not that child presented in your scenario. You have knowledge of salvation, and will be judged on your own merits.

I will pray that you are saved. If not, I will pray for your salvation.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM

Wow, I presented a hypothetical for commenters to chew on and lo and behold I end up being judged by you. I wish I had your all-knowing powers and ability to judge your brothers based on a blog comment. But God will judge you on how you unfairly judge others.

You will be judged based on whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior.

Where does that leave millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, who were born into a different world than you and taught other religious doctrine? All destined for hell, by your standards. They must all be evil, and be punished, since their upbringing and beliefs are different than yours.

Funny isn’t it, that’s how much of the Muslim world looks at the Christian world.

All in the name of religion …… peoples hating and killing other people for thousands of years.

I say live and let live, whatever works for others is fine with me and I have a great deal of respect for others who treat me in kind. My philosphy is geared more towards a brotherhood of man, all getting along in spite of their differences. Yours on the other hand says, I’m right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. That leads to confrontation, wars and all too often, many horrible deaths.

So have fun there on your high horse. What’s that scripture I learned as a child, “Judge not lest ye be judged”. Yeah, that’s it.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Yet another indication that Obama is not a Christian. Sorry, Jesus made it plain what we need to do to go to heaven – faith that He is our Savior who died for our sins. Through faith we are saved, not through good works, lest any man should boast. Really a simple concept.

katieanne on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

No, Paul was not trained personally by Jesus.

And for the rest….I worship a God, not a book.

Kasper Hauser on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

I worship God not a god and meditate in his word that I may know Him better.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM

No, Paul was not trained personally by Jesus.

Paul saw the post-resurrection Christ & received some, as he said, “revelations” from him. I wouldn’t argue about whether he was “trained personally” by the Lord.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:41 AM

As one reader commented, “Why should the language of John 3:16 be interpreted exclusively? If anyone who believes in Jesus (who was the Word back in chapter 1) is saved, does that verse tell us anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus isn’t saved? Or if Jesus is the only way to salvation, does that mean everyone must be aware of this fact to enjoy the benefit of it?”

John 3:18 – He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 1:20 – For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 – Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

fossten on November 27, 2008 at 11:42 AM

I end up being judged by you.

The very words you quoted said that he doesn’t know the state of your soul.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:43 AM

All destined for hell, by your standards.

By God’s standards, all–including Christians–deserve to be destroyed in Hell. By God’s mercy, he has made a way of forgiveness. Jesus suffered for you.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM

Earlier, I was referring to the word… Lord (although I must now consider “stranger” along with that!)

They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

What bothered me most about this passage, was that there would be some among those destined for Hell that thought themselves Christian. Even when they called him Lord, it did not deter his judgment. He instead goes on to point out everywhere he provided an opportunity, and still they didn’t follow the servant leading of His Word.

Obama can call himself a Christian all he wants. But it will be God who will be doing the judging. And many who call themselves Christian will be thrown into the darkness, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Their empty words will avail them not.

For those who think they can negotiate when the time comes… this should terrify them.

It is the reason I regard Job as one of the most humbling and terrifying books of the Bible. Job (egged on by his friends) thinks he can discourse with God. But when God appears in all his terrifying power, all he can do is grovel, saying “I am unworthy – how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.

Standing before God will be terrifying. “Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man?” The parts about “Where were you…” is humbling.

God bless you this Thanksgiving Day…

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM

So have fun there on your high horse.

How is the view from yours?

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Fogw, Abraham Lincoln put it best in his Second Inaugural address (as he was quoting Psalm 19):

“…as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.’”

I hope you can always rest in the assurance that God’s judgments (as they concern this earth and all the people on it) are always true and righteous altogether: He never makes mistakes, and whatever He decides is right (and that, even if I, with my little mind, can’t understand it fully or don’t “like” the outcome).

God bless you, Fogw.

dtestard on November 27, 2008 at 11:50 AM

So have fun there on your high horse. What’s that scripture I learned as a child, “Judge not lest ye be judged”. Yeah, that’s it.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

That the favorite verse of nonbelievers everywhere. Also, one of the most misunderstood verses in all of Scripture.
The folks who fall back on that verse always fail to mention John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. Chuck Colson said, “True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t.”

However, I believe Christians should be careful in how they speak to the unbeliever about matters of faith, always doing so with humility. Jesus declares “no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65) In the same passage Jesus declares: ” all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me.” (John 6:37) In both verses the phrase “come to Me” simply means “believe in Me” and so taken together Jesus is stating that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it, and all to whom God grants it will believe”. According to this passage, then, God grants faith, a faith that will infallibly arise in the heart of those He has given His Son…

Faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature. If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because the Holy Spirit has given that person a new, humble nature … not because some men are more humble than others. It was not by chance that one person believed the gospel and not the other, nor was it because one had some innate virtue that the other lacked. It is grace and grace ALONE that makes men to differ, not the exertion of men’s wills. While God requires faith of all men He promises to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit (John 6:63-65), which quickens and disarms hostility so they are willing, and able to believe.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:50 AM

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

I believe if you re-read my comment, I explained myself.

I have run into this type of scenario before. They are normally put forth by non-believers. You are not the child in the scenario. I answered the scenario, but also pointed out that you cannot use the child’s defense as your own.

You have heard the Gospel message. If you are saved, then I thank God for that! If you are not, then you will be judged for hearing the message and rejecting it.

Where did I go wrong?

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:50 AM

I don’t understand why normally sensible people get suckered into debating religion with atheists, it’s a losing battle because either you have Faith or you do not. You cannot reason someone into getting faith nor can you reason someone out of having faith.
And stop the idiotic quotes: Being able to quote someone else does not make YOU smart. Any idiot can Google up enough quotes to bring any thread to its knees.
Obama is a hypocrite, plain and simple. He only attended church to use its leverage to further its career and the more he talks about religion to more his lack of knowledge is going to be exposed.

dpierson on November 27, 2008 at 11:52 AM

Matthew 10:28 (English Standard Version) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:20 AM
That would be it. Seems to imply that the stay in hell is temporary, if only because one does not survive it.
As someone wrote earlier: deletion.
Not that I have any horse in this race.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

I don’t believe that’s what that means, but who knows, you may be right. I am cautious about developing my theology from just one verse. We must look to the whole of Scripture, always being mindful of the larger context of any particular verse. Scripture taken out-of-context can be twisted to mean all kinds of things it does not mean. Entire denominations have been built on such misinterpretations.

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 11:56 AM

So have fun there on your high horse. What’s that scripture I learned as a child, “Judge not lest ye be judged”. Yeah, that’s it.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Absolutely. But please don’t stop at the first convenient section. That would be dishonest. Looks look at the entire passage since you brought it up…

1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matt 7:1-5

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:56 AM

How is the view from yours?

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Just fine, although it hurts my neck looking up at you.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:59 AM

Earlier, I was referring to the word… Lord (although I must now consider “stranger” along with that!)

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM

After pondering this, I still agree with you, “Lord” is the word that ought to jump out at nonbelievers. “Stranger” ought to be word that jumps out at “believers.”

flyfisher on November 27, 2008 at 12:00 PM

That would be it. Seems to imply that the stay in hell is temporary, if only because one does not survive it.
As someone wrote earlier: deletion.
Not that I have any horse in this race.

Count to 10 on November 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM

Not quite. It’s a poor translation made by zealous translators who ignored the other verses speaking of Gehenna as a place of eternal torment.

Apollumi can mean destroy, but it is commonly used as “be lost,” “abolished,” “rendered useless,” or “put out of the way entirely.”

A good example of this usage is Matthew 15:24 -

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

That word “lost” is the same apollumi.

In Luke 15:8-9 -
“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’”

The coins were apollumi, that is, lost.

So it should read: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul spirit (psuche, not pneuma). Rather fear him who can destroy abolish both soul spirit and body in hell Gehenna.

TMK on November 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM

I have run into this type of scenario before. They are normally put forth by non-believers. You are not the child in the scenario. I answered the scenario, but also pointed out that you cannot use the child’s defense as your own.
dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 11:50 AM

Where do you come up with this lunacy? How do you come to this conclusion?

You live in a fantasy world.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Designer religion.

Designer Constitution.

notagool on November 27, 2008 at 12:03 PM

Just fine, although it hurts my neck looking up at you.

Since it’s Thanksgiving, I’ll take that as a compliment. : )

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 12:08 PM

Designer religion.

Designer Constitution.

notagool on November 27, 2008 at 12:03 PM

The Constitution is a flawed document as well as that other old Text. Things are much clearer from Mt. barry.

thomasaur on November 27, 2008 at 12:08 PM

Where does that leave millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, who were born into a different world than you and taught other religious doctrine? All destined for hell, by your God’s standards. They must all be evil, and be punished, since their upbringing and beliefs are different than yours.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

“No one can come to the Father, except through me.” –Jesus Christ.

You argue with me, when I back up my beliefs with scripture. If you are a Christian, why are you offended by his Word?

You assume me to be on a high horse, judging others. In reality, I deserve Hell. I have done many things I am not proud of. I have lied, cheated, stolen. But I am a regenerate man under Christ’s salvation.

But I will point out his Word, and I will not back down. If I DON’T do these things, then I will truly be judged.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Where do you come up with this lunacy? How do you come to this conclusion?

You live in a fantasy world.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM

The Bible. Read it. Learn from it. Everyone will be judged individually. If you hear the message, and choose not to repent and follow it, you have chosen your own path. It is not punishment, it is simply what you have chosen. It is not my judgment, or words, it is Gods. He has given you all the criteria through his Word. Stop blaming and accusing me, when all I have done is quote his Word.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 12:24 PM

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all worship false idols, and that sin alone was enough for ancient Jews to bring destruction to Canaan. Are you saying those Jews were wrong for obeying God and destroying Canaanites because of their idolatrous upbringing and beliefs?

TMK on November 27, 2008 at 12:27 PM

The Bible. Read it. Learn from it.

dominigan on November 27, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Good one. Point me to the scripture where it says “fogw, you cannot use the child’s defense as your own”.

Pay attention. I was making reference to how YOU were psychoanalizing me, rather poorly I might add.

Sometimes you just can’t use the Bible or the Scriptures to defend what you say. Sometimes you get caught with your foot in your mouth. Maybe you shouldn’t judge so harshly.

I have done many things I am not proud of. I have lied, cheated, stolen.

And you’re lecturing others. Nice.

fogw on November 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Maybe this is a little off topic but this has been eating at me since BO acceptance speech. I was very alarmed when he came out to give his acceptance speech with his family but then makes them get off the stage for him to give his speech all alone just him. I have never seen that before!
It got me thinking that is very MUSLIMesk
Hide the wife and children only the male can be seen and heard!
This has been bothering me and I never seen anyone bring this point up!

time2taketheglovesoffGOP on November 27, 2008 at 12:56 PM

I’m sure glad Mark Twain had no say in building his god. I wonder where Mark Twain is now? Where ever he is, he knows the truth.

abcurtis on November 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM

I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on November 27, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Pray for Obama. He got his introduction to “Christianity” in a church teaching Black Liberation Theology which teaches, according to Cone, one of the originators of the faith, that if God does not support elevating black men over white men, the black people will have to kill God. It is difficult to learn truth when in a church that teaches blasphemy. It would be good for Obama to study the Bible more and be open to God’s word which is very different than the words of Wright that he has listened to for 20 years.

Pat in NC on November 27, 2008 at 1:21 PM

“I don’t believe we should divide over such secondary matters.”
flyfisher

Too late!

You know what I love about you Social Cons? Your faith.

I’ve met the faithful and from them I’ve learned that:

1. Blood transfusions are forbidden.
2. Using condoms is the same as committing abortion.
3. Only 144,000 people who ever lived, or ever will live, will escape the fires of hell.
4. Drinking hot chocolate is forbidden.
5. Slavery is not forbidden.
6. If my wife and son are thrown from a ship in the middle of the sea and I can only save one of them I must try to save my wife over my son. (it’s a long explanation don’t ask)
7. A man having homosexual activity with a man is forbidden but a woman having homosexual activity with a woman is not.
8. Shaving my beard is forbidden (but for some reason not quite evident to me I can go ahead and shave my mustache).
9. The reason why all the great churches (buildings that is) in the old world have such high ceilings and doors is because when God gets back the structures must be tall enough for him to enter his house.

And my personal favorite:

10. If a black man is really good and prays real hard then God will make him white.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen there is nothing like having a productive conversation about lowering taxes or reducing Federal powers and then getting cornered by one of the Faithful who assume just because you can see reason on fiscal matters means you must follow the one and only true path- according to them.

Browncoatone on November 27, 2008 at 1:23 PM

Browncoatone on November 27, 2008 at 1:23 PM

And fiscal cons are not divided?
Christians do disagree on a lot of issues, but we are united on the most important things…& we love each other.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 1:31 PM

P.S.
Browncoatone, you must have really searched the deep, far fringes to find some of those.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 1:33 PM

For many are called, but few are chosen.

I find that so frightening. I have had this discussion with my friends, most of whom seem to believe that it is the other way around. They are of the view that only a Hitler or Tiller might find their way to Hell. I would like to believe as they do, but the thing about that and Obama’s statement is it disregards what Jesus himself has said. I don’t know who will be chosen, but I want to give myself and my loved ones the best chance we can have, and so I teach my children what Jesus said. As for me, I can only pray for God’s mercy.

Browncoatone on November 27,2008 at 1:23 PM

I hope that you don’t let the irrational misinterpretations of some flawed human beings turn you away from Christ. It is like those who use the failings of a few priests as an excuse to disregard the fullness of the Truth, or to a degree on a more secular level, those who would use the failings of some in our government, to discredit the brilliance of the system established by the Founding Fathers.

pannw on November 27, 2008 at 1:45 PM

If you take the part of the Bible that talks about Jesus and Salvation, as Obama says he does, how can you not take seriously the part of the Bible that tells what happens to non believers. God says, in his Word, that the “rocks cry out.” There is no excuse for non-belief. By the way, Christians aren’t antagonistic toward the athiests, the just believe they are misguided. Why is it that the athiests are so actively working against Christians and the things they do?

TimothyJ on November 27, 2008 at 2:10 PM

If there were another way to heaven other than the sacrificial death of Christ, than his death and resurrection were meaningless. As Paul wrote to the Galatians,

I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law [our works] than Christ is dead in vain.

And immediately after that he wrote:

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified!

And later in the same letter:

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.

There is no other redemption. People who try to invent their Politically Correct God are fooling themselves.
Finally, if true Christians are wrong on this issue, they have lost nothing. For surveys have shown that Christians are among the happiest people on earth. But if the unbeliever is wrong, then he will be separated from God forever! Your choice! Choose life.

Christian Conservative on November 27, 2008 at 2:16 PM

Simply put, Christians believe that faith in God and Christ, and living a Christian life, will gain one favor with God.

madmonkphotog on November 26, 2008 at 10:24 PM

You can’t “gain favor” with God.

Rom 5:6-8
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
NASU

Gal 2:16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
NASU

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 6:31 PM

A child is born on some remote island in the south Pacific. His parents and ancestors have lived their entire lives in seclusion, cultivating the land for food, sharing their bounty with others, living a simple but good life that has never been touched by the teachings of Christianity. This child never lies, cheats or steals, is never disrepectful to his elders and cares for his siblings.

This child knows nothing of Christianity, it’s as foreign to him as an IPod or a photon accelerator. This child has done harm to no one and lived a life as any moral Christian would – except this child has never heard of, or accepted Jesus Christ into his life.

At the age of six this child is tragically killed by a falling tree during a monsoon.

I ask you, does this child go to hell for eternity?

fogw on November 26, 2008 at 10:39 PM

Quite the scenario. But no such child exists:

Rom 3:23
23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NASU

And all people, young and old, even toddlers know right from wrong.

Rom 2:14-16
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
NASU

And the only way to God is perfection.

Matt 5:48
48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NASU

Hell? God is perfectly just and will,

Rom 2:5-6
5 … because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you … stor[e] up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 … RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
NASU

Therefore, no one who is unaccountable for his or her actions will “go to hell for eternity.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM

10. If a black man is really good and prays real hard then God will make him white.

Browncoatone, that’s from old editions of the Book of Mormon (they changed it for obvious reasons). It once said that dark-skinned people could become “white and delightsome”.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 6:58 PM

Kevin in Southern Illinois on November 26, 2008 at 10:41 PM

Kevin, did I tell you I grew up in Murphysboro?

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 6:59 PM

I have done many things I am not proud of. I have lied, cheated, stolen.

And you’re lecturing others. Nice.

Lecturing? I look at it as one beggar telling another where to find bread.
Many of the greatest examples of faith have become so after a dive into sin. Thank you, God, for your mercy!

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 7:03 PM

jgapinoy,

The other day, when you said you wouldn’t argue with someone with a hardened heart, to whom were you refering?

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 7:14 PM

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