Quote of the day

posted at 10:00 pm on November 26, 2008 by Allahpundit

Obama: There’s the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven’t embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they’re going to hell.

Falsani: You don’t believe that?

Obama: I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can’t imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That’s just not part of my religious makeup.


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so this discussion is moot.

Romeo13 on November 26, 2008 at 10:44 PM

Then why do you engage it?

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 7:19 PM

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 7:14 PM

Hmmm…I don’t remember saying that. But many people are simply not ready for truth.
Much of what I say in these threads is for the sake of the many readers who can’t comment, not necessarily for the one I’m debating.
(I assure you that it couldn’t have been about you, my brother)

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 7:25 PM

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on November 26, 2008 at 11:06 PM

I hope Sammy is enjoying the company.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 7:29 PM

By the way, I may have missed it, but unlike President Bush, and only in the big speeches, he really doesn’t say “God Bless the United States, and God Bless You All” that often, does he?

Seven Percent Solution on November 26, 2008 at 11:15 PM

I remember a time when Mr. Bush would say, “May God continue to bless America.”

I always wondered why he changed it.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 7:33 PM

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company

I’d much rather spend eternity with guys like davidk than be destroyed alongside Mark Twain.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 7:33 PM

Obama, Falsami, and Waldman are all wrong. The Catholic Church, for one, teaches the following:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” (CCC 847)

So, in other words, the “little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith” can still make it to heaven.

There’s a bit more to it, but that’s the heart of it. For more, click the link in the blockquote. It will take you to the relevant links in the Catechism.

=-=

DPierre on November 27, 2008 at 7:46 PM

highhopes on November 26, 2008 at 11:23 PM

Quite correct–salvation is by faith and not by works.

As far as God’s “knowing”: I tend to believe that God has what is called “middle knowledge.”

The Bible teaches (Psalms 147:5) that God’s knowledge is without end. Very (overly) simply, middle knowledge says that God knows every action that we might potentially take (which includes every actual action) but does not know which potential action will be the actual action until it actually happens.

This is kind of hard to get one’s head around. God knows ( according to “middle knowledge” [aka Molinism]) everything that could possibly happen (including what will actually happen) but does not know which event out of the myriad possible events (including the actual event) will be the actual event until it actually happens..

Some have called Molinism heresy. The critics argue that it limits God’s knowledge because He wouldn’t know the actual event–but a Molinist would counter that God does know the actual event.

Beyond my skills. But I struggled with the issue of determinism for many years, and I see this as a solution to that problem.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 8:03 PM

The debate of whether Obama is a sectret Muslim or not can get comical, but he needs to drop the charade that he is an authentic Christian. One cannot claim to follow Christ and yet reject His teachings.

There is someone who disagrees with Obama, and that is Jesus Christ.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 14:6

People can believe whatever they want, including Obama. That’s fine. But Christianity has been watered down by people like Obama. Believe whatever you want, but don’t claim to be something you’re not.

Grafted on November 27, 2008 at 8:11 PM

Beyond my skills.

Beyond your pay grade? : P

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 8:15 PM

Christianity has been watered down by people like Obama. Believe whatever you want, but don’t claim to be something you’re not.

Someone commented here that 90% of Americans are Christians. We are thought of by some as a Christian country. I beg to differ.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 8:22 PM

Don’t rely on your logic.
Puritan1648 on November 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Christianity is infinitely logical.

John 1:1 “in the beginning was the Logic (logos), and the Logic was with God, and thew Logic was God.”

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 10:59 PM

MB4 on November 26, 2008 at 11:34 PM
I read something a while back that went something like: “God is good. God is omnipotent. Evil exists. You can square any two of those, but not all three”.

flipflop on November 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Plantinga answered that rusty pseudo-argument some time ago. Of course, infidels.org claim to have answered Plantinga’s refutation, but, as always, they twist and equivocate and are justifiably proud of their work. Kinda like my wife’s new puppy when he takes a poop.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 11:06 PM

Religion sucks.

winemkr on November 26, 2008 at 11:55 PM

Funny you should bring that up.

Talk to Steve, the blogger there. He’s the real deal.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 11:15 PM

I read something a while back that went something like: “God is good. God is omnipotent. Evil exists. You can square any two of those, but not all three”.

flipflop on November 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM

It’s not all that different in the secular realm, what with all the mental gymnastics required to believe in “freedom of action”.

ddrintn on November 27, 2008 at 11:29 PM

The question IS, “How can a perfect and just and holy God allow anything other than perfect holiness and righteousness into His eternal presence?”

A God who tolerates trash has compromised His values. Such a God is not worthy of worship.

skydaddy on November 27, 2008 at 2:41 AM

You are exactly right!

And that reveals God’s wonderful grace. He placed the iniquity of us all on His Perfect, Innocent Son Who received the punishement due us. And if we will just accept Christ’s atoning sacrifice, God will impute His own righteousness to our account and reckon us as holy and perfect as He is.

How can anyone not worship and praise such a God.

Those of you who mock are really doing yourselves a disservice. What you say to/about us who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob affects us none at all. Rather it only serves to further harden your hearts. A really sad thing. And as sarcastic as some of us get toward you, it really does sadden our heart to see you reject the wonderful grace offered by our marvelous God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

davidk on November 27, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Evil exists.

flipflop on November 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM

In other words, what is this “evil” of which you speak?

ddrintn on November 27, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Hey… MB4… I’ll bring the stogies if you bring the booze! We can trade anecdotes with Twain, and throw crap at Hitler…

Romeo13 on November 26, 2008 at 11:17 PM

Dude, I don’t wanna move in, but I’m definitely there for a weekend. And I get 1st dibs at pissin on Stalin.

soundingboard on November 27, 2008 at 11:44 PM

P.S.
Browncoatone, you must have really searched the deep, far fringes to find some of those.

jgapinoy on November 27, 2008 at 1:33 PM

No, jgapinoy, that list is from people that I have spoken with in person and they believe those ludicrous things just a fervently as you do your own faith. Some of them quite a bit more. If I really wanted to throw something way out there on the list I’d include some Scientology. But I haven’t met any Scientology believers in person yet.

And that list is the reason why we who have so much in common must not allow religious differences divide us from defeating those with which we have almost nothing in common.

Is it not better to gather support even from the Homosexual Republicans, Pro-Marijuana Libertarians, and Atheist Independents to form a grand majority than to be ruled by the opposition?

Keep your faith, but lure votes towards your cause with secular ideas rather than righteous religious fervor. Because justifying you rule by the Will of God is tired and terrifying. After all:

Who says I am not under the special protection of God?
- A. Hitler

Browncoatone on November 28, 2008 at 1:36 AM

The answer to Epicurus is “God is able but unwilling because it is not in our best interest that he stop evil.” This also shows how Mark Twain missed the mark.
Pattosensei on November 27, 2008 at 9:58 AM

Oh I see. So it’s good to allow evil to happen.

So evil in itself must be good for without evil evil in itself wouldn’t be allowed to happen in the first place, which isn’t good.

Nonfactor on November 28, 2008 at 3:59 AM

Keep your faith, but lure votes towards your cause with secular ideas rather than righteous religious fervor.

You be sure to keep your faith & righteous religious fervor, too. And I will continue to vote for people who may disagree with my Christianity, as long as they uphold the Constitution.

jgapinoy on November 28, 2008 at 7:27 AM

A God who tolerates trash has compromised His values. Such a God is not worthy of worship.

On one hand, we’ve got secularists who complain about God’s high moral standards. On the other, folks like skydaddy criticize God’s patience with humanity’s low moral standards.
If it weren’t for God’s patience, all of us would have been destroyed in Hell long ago.
Because of his patience, we all have an opportunity to enjoy him in Heaven forever.

jgapinoy on November 28, 2008 at 7:34 AM

I don’t know who will be chosen, but I want to give myself and my loved ones the best chance we can have, and so I teach my children what Jesus said. As for me, I can only pray for God’s mercy.

Browncoatone on November 27,2008 at 1:23 PM

I hope that you don’t let the irrational misinterpretations of some flawed human beings turn you away from Christ. It is like those who use the failings of a few priests as an excuse to disregard the fullness of the Truth, or to a degree on a more secular level, those who would use the failings of some in our government, to discredit the brilliance of the system established by the Founding Fathers.

pannw on November 27, 2008 at 1:45 PM

The “many are called but few are chosen” passage has been argued over for, well, almost 2,000 years.

Any passage that has such a controversy is best held loosely and cannot be used to say this or that is true.

The Calvinist/Reformed teaching that X number of people will saved is in error, for Jesus said,

John 3:16,17
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
NASU

Whoever” believes. And it is by faith in the gospel, the good news, of Jesus Christ that one is saved; not by works.

davidk on November 28, 2008 at 1:20 PM

It’s hard to think ill of God when you think you’re him.

Amazing Grace on November 28, 2008 at 7:13 PM

This seems like a “no duh” statement by Obama. Only the really radical Christian sects believe that most of the world’s population is damned by nature of the location of their birth.

Mark Jaquith on November 29, 2008 at 12:19 AM

But progressive Christians responded that it’s quite possible for Christians to believe that Jesus provides a way to salvation but not the only way.

“Progressive:” Someone who can’t believe what the Bible or the constitution actually says.

Akzed on November 29, 2008 at 4:05 PM

All of this deep thought gives me a headache and that is why I let God worry about the little kid in India and I worry about Notre Dame getting back to their winning ways.

Herb on November 30, 2008 at 12:17 AM

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