Great news: Obama and McCain agreed to move forward on immigration, says Reid
posted at 3:40 pm on November 25, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Via the Standard. This is what they’re going to do to pass the time in Congress between bailouts? Jerk around with a hot-button issue guaranteed to enrage all sides and exacerbate Democratic infighting while the economy’s melting down and the Iran nuclear clock ticks on? Why not toss social security onto the table too, just to really get the juices flowing?
To believe Reid’s being sincere, you’d have to believe he’s an abject imbecile. Verdict: He’s sincere.
Q: With more Democrats in the Senate and the House and a Democrat in the White House, how do you see congressional efforts playing out on such issues as health care and immigration?
A: On immigration, there’s been an agreement between (President-elect Barack) Obama and (Arizona Republican Sen. John) McCain to move forward on that. … We’ll do that. We have to get this economy stuff figured out first, so I think we’ll have a shot at doing something on health care in the next Congress for sure.
Q: Will there be as much of a fight on immigration as last time?
A: We’ve got McCain and we’ve got a few others. I don’t expect much of a fight at all. Now health care is going to be difficult. That’s a very complicated issue. We debated at great length immigration. People understand the issues very well. We have not debated health care, so that’s going to take a lot more time to do.
We’ll never know for sure, but I like to imagine that Grahamnesty brokered the deal. And if they don’t get around to it in this Congress? Good news — Maverick’s officially running for re-election, so he can be the GOP point man for The One in 2011 or 2012 if need be. Exit question: Any predictions on how the Senate vote will shake out next time? Given the beating McCain took from Hispanic voters, I’ll put the over/under at 70.
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Shamnesty: The other crap sandwich.
Michelle on November 25, 2008 at 3:41 PM
So, about McCain taking Rush’s advice and just becoming a Democrat…….
Hawkins1701 on November 25, 2008 at 3:41 PM
One Last, FINAL step in destroying the GOP…. forever.
stenwin77 on November 25, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Thanks Juan
thomasaur on November 25, 2008 at 3:44 PM
And now they can label it “bipartisn” so they don’t have to own it.
lodge on November 25, 2008 at 3:44 PM
This country is finished!
grapeknutz on November 25, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Oh, and I’m sure the borders will be secured because MCCAIN GOT THE MESSAGE ! – right. Yea. Sure. Remember, Americans don’t trust the government – hummm, wonder why.
stenwin77 on November 25, 2008 at 3:45 PM
I knew those guys couldn’t stay mad at each other forever.
justfinethanks on November 25, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Gopherit Senator Reid. Go for the gusto, the brass ring, the holy grail, reach for all you can get.
Show us how your party can create a utopia in the US in just two years.
Now’s your chance. Show us what you can do.
The country will love you for it.
Skandia Recluse on November 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
O Goody it doesn’t matter who we voted for Nov 4th that is a relief…not really.
Dr Evil on November 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Thats why we lost. We ran a liberal lite against a liberal.
Why only buy have the crap sandwich when you can have all of it for the same price!!!
Pathetic!!!
Maybe this is more of the stuff we do like old Mort on Fox News wants after we fire Rushbo!?! W/E!
HoosierCon on November 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
The GOP’s demonization of hispanics (and gays for that matter) are a big reason it’s nearing extinction, at least the GOP Senators are starting to wise up……..
Noneya on November 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
The ironic part is thanks to Obama and our beloved Democratic Congress, our economy is in such shambles, we all will be sneaking across the border to get to Mexico to find the only work there is……
Thanks again Maverick…..my 11 year old daughter could have beaten Hope and Change Mao but no, not you….then you try and throw Sarah under the bus…..PIG
SDarchitect on November 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
I wonder at what point we conservatives say “enough” and start our own nation. Seems like this time of economic melt-down would be as good as any.
Tenn, Alabama, SC (except Lindsay Grahmnesty), TX, GA, Louisiana…
stenwin77 on November 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
That is SO NOT TRUE. Illegal aliens are looking for freebies. They will vote for the party that promises them the most. By nature, that would never be the GOP.
stenwin77 on November 25, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Michelle Malkin is a spunky and beautiful senorita, but also a very delusional Gringo Lady. A senorita with the spirit of an earlier generation. Follow her at your own peril Gringos.
Barackito and Juan are both totally in my pocket now. I have been teaching both of them even more Spanish.
Most of your House is in my pocket. Most all of your Senate is in my pocket. I have bought off or blackmailed almost all of them now. A bunch of pesos here, several women there, a young boy for a few of them, a little male attention for a certain Senator from New York who will soon be Secretary of State. Her husband still neglects her something awful. Oh my Lord, the things she wants me
to do to her. It makes my skin crawl, but it is for a good cause.
A little booze spread around. Alright a whole lot of gin for a certain Senator. Ay curumba, can he ever put it down. And his son, double ay curumba. That rehab stuff sure didn’t do him any good! I’m not even sure that he went. Telling Senator Juan that I would get him a lot of media time, he loves that so much. I have even offered him his own 24×7 TV station. You have no chance GRINGOS.
Your Grandfathers kept you from having to learn German or Japanese or be lamp shades. But YOU ARE NOT the men or women that they were, not even close.
Once we get our amnesty, we will all come to your country. We will all have at least 10 kids and in a generation we will overwhelm and deport most of you Gringos. Some of you, if you learn Spanish real well, we might let you stay to pick our lettuce or mow our lawns or take care of OUR children in what used to be your houses.
Those who don’t learn Spanish will be deported to Alaska. That is until the great scientist and religious leader Al Gore’s global warming heats things up and we want Alaska too, then we will deport you all to New Orleans. It will probably all be under water by then anyway. I hope you Gringos can swim, he, he, he. My bad!!! My very bad!!!
So give it up and LEARN SPANISH! You should probably all buy Mexican flags too and fly them in your front yard and on your pickup trucks. If you already have an American flag there it is alright if you keep it, as long as you fly it upside down and below our great Mexican flag.
Now repeat after me – I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Mucho Grande Mexico, and to the Republic for which it use to stand, one nation under me, with everything for us, and nothing for you Gringos, except taxes, of course.
Ha, ha, ha Gringos. LEARN SPANISH!
VinyFoxy on November 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Yep. Wanting our laws enforced = demonization.
And all those anti-gay demonizers are just INSANE out here in CA.
(That was sarcasm, just to spell it out for you.)
I’d ask you to say hi to Tin Man and Todo for me, but we’ll all be living in the land of Oz pretty soon.
Hawkins1701 on November 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
I’m almost glad McCain lost – at least we’re getting shafted by the ones we voted against. It would only be worse if McCain had been the lead.
If the Republicans are going to be no better than the Dems who cares if we lost the election? Now we know that our pick is just as big of a liar as Obama.
katiejane on November 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Just a poser. We let the media shove a poser down our throat. What have you done lately in your state to help close primaries to party members only?
hawkdriver on November 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM
HOW STUPID CAN THEY BE? (Don’t answer that.)
I hope they’re ready for the Congressional Switchboards to blow up again.
By the way, wanting people to obey the law is not demonization. It’s called personal responsibility.
kingsjester on November 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Only
ObamaMcCainCongress will deliver the nightmarish amnesty America neither wants nor needs.BKennedy on November 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Many of the illegals are heading back south already. Things are getting worse for them here economically than in Mexico.
whitetop on November 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Getting closer and closer to time to refresh the tree of liberty.
thirteen28 on November 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Why…why…why did I give my vote to Captain Amnesty?
Great. The Republicans just got a big message that anybody who didn’t support Obama was at least a McCain-Kennedy fan.
This election sucked.
MadisonConservative on November 25, 2008 at 3:53 PM
I hope that was just weird sarcasm, otherwise you’re that guy (girl) at the party we make fun of while you’re getting punch as we curse the host under our breath for inviting you, thus ruining our would-be awesome game of Twister.
Pasalubong on November 25, 2008 at 3:53 PM
I am sooooo voting a straight lizard people ticket next time…..
rw on November 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Yeah, Reid’s an imbecile, and they’d be stupid enough to focus on that as the financial world crumbles around them. The GOP will go along with it for the Hispanic vote, which means they won’t have learned from Juan McAmnesty’s poor showing amongst that same group this time. We’re screwed…
changer1701 on November 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM
It’s amazing how dedicated those two dolts are to completely destroying America. They’re assaulting free markets, the Constitution, the military and now our culture. Great.
Sign of the Dollar on November 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Amnesty is going to be even more unpopular now with unemployment going up. Even if it passes the Senate, I can’t see the blue dogs in the House wanting any part of this. Maybe Dems feel they have to at least give it a try even if it fails so they can show the Hispanics that voted for Obama that an attempt was made.
Mark1971 on November 25, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Maybe, within the next two to four years we can send both of these jokers back to where they come from. I guess McCain decided if he can’t beat him, he’ll join him.
rplat on November 25, 2008 at 3:55 PM
This was the very reason I needed a few stiff rum and cokes before voting for Palin. I feared McCain would try something like shamnesty 2.
At this point, I’m indifferent if the entire economy melts down taking Canada’s and Europe’s with it. Americans are the most generous people on the planet but let’s see if the proposed legalization of millions of low-skilled people, and many whose very first action in the United States was to break the country’s immigration laws, isn’t made more difficult if the economy really tanks.
Canadian Infidel on November 25, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Hurray for mavericky bipartisan screwing of the US. So, when do we get to blow out the Congressional switchboard again?
Then again, the liberals (dem and rep) may be on to something. By completely tanking our economy, all the illegal immigrants will have gone home before the amnesty is passed, anyway.
batter on November 25, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Border? What border?
CP on November 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Oh, that’s funny!!! I get it now. Reid actually thinks that McCain has the GOP behind him now! Har-d-har-har.
We’re going to have to watch them like hawks.
Oink on November 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Just finding out who the illegals are–illegals who are already working and living here–is important enough to trade not immediate citizenship, but a legal status for. That’s the reward for their risk of coming forward to identify themselves. Now, just after the election, is the perfect time to finally get rational on the issue. And if working illegals are willing to wait twelve years or so, and jump through a lot of hoops in the meantime (to prove they’re serious,) then citizenship someday is okay too. I have no problem with it. America needs more people and younger people.
RBMN on November 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
When I don’t think it can get any worse, it does. All our wonderful dc bunch, gads, they almost all suck! Time for an adult beverage.
L
letget on November 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
This actually makes me happy McCain lost. I knew we were going to have to fight McCain on this win or lose, but it’ll be nice to be able to lay amnesty at Obama’s feet in 4 years.
BadgerHawk on November 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
One more thing, I hope no one is really surprised at McCain doing this. He would’ve done it if he was elected President.
batter on November 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Question for Wise_men and all the other clowns who went into hyper-snit over honest questions during the campaigns…….
Is it okay to be critical of McCain and question his motives now or are we still supposed to stay quiet in the name of GOP unity lest Obama gets elected????????
It’s stories like this that only prove what an awful candidate McCain was. He lost because he isn’t in step with the GOP base. The man has zero sense of reality. I’m almost glad he lost because it’s hard to see how he would have been much better than the bastard that did win.
highhopes on November 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Just about the time of the fall of Rome many citizens must have had a very sick feeling in their stomachs. I think I have that feeling now.
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Hey Allahpundit, does this mean we should or shouldn’t go ahead with that video thanking John McCain? Sarah Palin got a thank you video, so shouldn’t the other half of the ticket get one as well? Right!
sharrukin on November 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
The only surprise here is that moron Reid who doesn’t see a fight brewing over amnesty.
highhopes on November 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Just one more reason why we should never, ever vote for the “lesser of two evils”. “Conservatives” need to demand standards and vote accordingly in the future. Otherwise, “conservatives” are nothing more than moderates who claim to have principles yet are too cowardly to vote on them.
Send_Me on November 25, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Reid has got to be the biggest idiot ever.
My fervent wish since November 5th has been that these left wing lunatics THINK they have a mandate.
Universal healthcare or amnesty. The American people will not swallow both. They may not swallow either. But showing your cards this early is just the height of stupidity.
gippergal1984 on November 25, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Everybody who voted for McCain in the primaries. Thanks for nothing. What the F*** were you morons thinking?
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 4:01 PM
I think Allah already answered that one:
batter on November 25, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Like I asked yesterday on a different thread, how DOES one go about closing the primaries? What’s the first step? Anyway, I’m sooo glad McCain lost (even though I voted for him/contributed to his campaign, etc.) If I could write HATE on every grain of sand in the Sahara Desert …..
missouriyankee on November 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM
I no see no border! Once Senior Obama becomes el Presidente of America del Norte and Senior Juan is his lap dog in the Senate we will all become juridica. We will come out of the sombras and we will bring all our muchos familiares norte and we will all have at least diez ninos and in a generacion you Gringos will all be hablando un espanola and taking ordenes from us.
NoBordersJose on November 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, most illegal aliens are looking for a place where they can make more than the $5/day they are making at home. They are looking for a place where they can work 12 hours and take home their 40 hard-earned dollars at the end of the day. They pick up our trash, they clean the toilets in our office buildings, they pick our produce, they do the lowest-paying, suckiest jobs this country has to offer. They would love to be legal aliens if this country gave them a meaningful chance to obtain legal residency.
factoid on November 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
How is it “demonization of Hispanics” to want this country to have borders and rational rules defining citizenship and immigration policy. There isn’t a single sovereign nation in history that has or could have survived long with wide-open borders and without a clearly defined culture and language.
Liberals are destroying the country because they’ve thrown common sense and logic out the window. We’re demonizing the poor if we expect people to provide for themselves and earn their keep. We’re demonizing blacks if we criticize a black person on the basis of their policy. We’re intent on destroying the planet if we question a clearly scientifically-flawed premise.
Sign of the Dollar on November 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Yeah! Let’s give 125% mortgages backed Freddie and Fannie to illegals, so they can use that extra 25% to buy a car and help Detroit. Then if they can’t pay the mortgage, we will let them stay in the house. All of us suckas with jobs that pay taxes can afford it, why the heck not? We’re all salves to the gubamint now anyway. Whatev’s.
JustTruth101 on November 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Written law, pertaining to the actual mission of our federal government, is falling by the wayside everywhere you look. It is like watching the walls of the city crumble as nature, in all its ruthless fury, starts rushing in.
progressoverpeace on November 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Thank god we didn’t elect this guy. He would have done more damage to the conservative brand than Bush
lodge on November 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
slaves
JustTruth101 on November 25, 2008 at 4:04 PM
No kidding.
JustTruth101 on November 25, 2008 at 4:04 PM
go F* yourself
wise_man on November 25, 2008 at 4:05 PM
McQueed is back.
Long live the idiot we always knew him to be.
jake-the-goose on November 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM
I know very little about candidates in Arizona. Is there anyway McCain could not be re-elected in 2010? Any shining republican star that can give him a run for his money?
sherry on November 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM
NoBordersJose on November 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM
No Way Jose!
Haha. I have to laugh, or I’ll cry.
Seriously, the middle class hated amnesty in 2007, they’ll LOATHE it in 2009.
Reid is a total moron. Or he’s baiting the GOP into a deal.
gippergal1984 on November 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Oh hey, isn’t there like a war or something going on down at the border, too? I thought I vaguely heard something about that somewhere. Like, um, they said more people had been killed in Mexico and on the U.S. border than U.S. soldiers that have died in Iraq? But, hey, you know, I could be mistaken or whatever.
CP on November 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM
You tell that Gringo off mucho good amigo!
NoBordersJose on November 25, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Why even post?
MadisonConservative on November 25, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Oh yeah, btw, didn’t I hear that more Americans are being held hostage in Mexico than Iran held in 1979? I mean, like, that’s bad and stuff, right?
CP on November 25, 2008 at 4:08 PM
That would be fantastic!
FloatingRock on November 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM
sherry on November 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Maybe. His biggest threat from the D side just got appointed DHS Secretary. From the R, I hear buzz about JD Hayworth.
gippergal1984 on November 25, 2008 at 4:11 PM
G’day mates. Australia is lookin’ bonzer compared to North America.
Right_of_Attila on November 25, 2008 at 4:12 PM
I think we need to hear from Senator McCain, a true American hero and Maverick who has stood up to Democrats and Republicans alike before we pass judgement. Thank you.
Now for those of you who want to buy machine guns to reenact your version of Border Patrol, go HERE. Enjoy Leveanworth and the condemnation of Senator McCain and Gov’r Palin!
HotAirJosef on November 25, 2008 at 4:12 PM
How quickly McCain is ready to stab us in the back, it’s only been a couple weeks and he back to the amnesty shtick. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him pushing Al Gore’s video into our schools next.
What a waste of a primary to pick this terd.
hanzblinx on November 25, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Did I read that Hayworth had financial/tax problems recently? Or am I confusing him with another congressmen (insert any name)?
sherry on November 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
This is actually a brilliant move on the Democrat’s part. It will surely pass both houses and cement a Dem voting majority in perpetuity.
The good news…look what they inherit.
Valiant on November 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
I live in Phoenix and I don’t think he will win reelection.
Go Retire Mac.
Firebird on November 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
I’m almost glad he lost because it’s hard to see how he would have been much better than the bastard that did win.
highhopes on November 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Because WHEN we get attacked again, Mac wouldn’t have run to hide or figure out a way to make his own nation feel responsible.
Considering the top priority of the POTUS is to keep his people safe, I don’t have much faith that the “bastard” doing anything right when the next hit comes.
Bishop on November 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM
It is better for conservatism if him and his ilk get creamed at the ballot box. Of course, amnesty will make that improbable.
Valiant on November 25, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Super-sized at that!
Well, the silver lining in this storm cloud, that idiot McCain will not be running for president again.
Zorro on November 25, 2008 at 4:19 PM
I don’t know who would oppose him. Either way, as an Arizonan I’m voting for whoever it is running against him. Any alternative has got to be better than McCain.
BTW-Where is Grue? Haven’t seen him eating in the past few days.
mauioriginal on November 25, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Exactly. And it was a bit of a difficult task for our party to win this year considering the fact that our candidate agreed to play by those insane rules. Rather than challenge the premise that border enforcement and law enforcement is anti-latino biggotry he agreed with the liberals that it was. Rather than simply arguing simple facts such as CO2 levels rise and fall as a result of increasing and decreasing temps, not visa versa and, oh lets say, the temp changes on Mars coincide with temps on Earth. Bottom line is we provided the voters with no clear alternatives! the voters can have the old shakey voice guy who believes in Global Warming and Amnesty or you can have the young, fit, first African American to potentially reside in the Oval Office who believes in Global Warming and Amnesty.
Not only did we fight this fight on the Dems home turf. We hog-tied ourselves with a steel chain and handed the Dems a bazooka to use against us. Brilliant!
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 4:21 PM
sherry on November 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
As far as I know, he’s clean but I could be wrong.
I do know he would NEVER reach across the aisle on account of this amnesty crap. NEVER.
gippergal1984 on November 25, 2008 at 4:22 PM
What utter crap. We can’t account for “most illegal aliens” so we can’t realistically discuss what they want.
Illegals account for 25-40% of LA County jail occupants depending on your source. Funding their healthcare and education has bankrupted many hospitals and caused some to fail. Schools are suffering due to English Language Learners clogging up the system.
Many illegals are in violations of more than just immigration laws — there is a huge problem with uninsured drivers, violators of public assistance and the quality of life drops markedly when and where they arrive.
Lots of people like to ascribe noble simplicity to the whole swath of illegals. That’s absurd. Culturally, they give us the finger and politically they represent your future irrelevance. Most blue-collar workers in California, Nevada, Texas and elsewhere suffer wage depreciation due to competition from unlicensed, undocumented laborers.
Save your romantic view for the telenovelas.
The Race Card on November 25, 2008 at 4:27 PM
People who encouraged this bloated government, anti-law enforcement, “dem-light” strategy deserve a hearty and much deserved “no, why don’t you go F* yourself!”
Hows that?
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Americans traveling to Mexico are playing with fire.
The Race Card on November 25, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Como se dice “Crap Sandwich” en espanol?
Crap Burrito?
Mr. Wednesday Night on November 25, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Very well stated Race Card.
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Yes, and they can do that AND be here legally. WHat’s your point?
stenwin77 on November 25, 2008 at 4:33 PM
I’m glad McCain lost. Is that bad?
hockey2k5 on November 25, 2008 at 4:34 PM
The Senate never had a problem with amnesty for illegal border crossers. It never got out of the House. Call your “blue dog”.
exdeadhead on November 25, 2008 at 4:34 PM
You think McCain would have pushed FOCA, appointed activist judges, and appointed Clinton officials to cabinet?
OneGyT on November 25, 2008 at 4:35 PM
VinyFoxy on November 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
We kick your freaking ass before! We can damn sure do it again!…….Los Diablos Tejanos!!!
try again later on November 25, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Excellent. Now he can get beaten in the primaries this time.
Oh wait, the GOP still has freaking open primaries, meaning that the Dems will vote en masse for McCain, saddling us with the worst candidate in successive elections.
“In the immortal words of Socrates, who said, ‘I drank what?’”
Physics Geek on November 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM
We would have a better chance of thwarting amnesty with a republican president McCain, than a democrat president Obama. If you don’t believe me, and think that a republican president can force anything he wants on the American people and the republicans, then go ask supreme court justice Harriet Miers to spell this out to you.
My comment was to “highhopes”, not you.
wise_man on November 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Good luck trying to use logic with these people. As Bishop said, the top priority of the POTUS is to keep his people safe, and when Americans are slaughtered because Obama is politically correct and treats terrorism like a criminal case, and not for what it is – terrorism, I’ll be here to remind people that at least that hated McCain didn’t get to be president, and what a f*king wonderful (according to their logic) thing that is.
wise_man on November 25, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Dear Mr. wise_man – how old are you?
jake-the-goose on November 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM
#@%$ McCain.
chunderroad on November 25, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Bork You!!
Zetterson on November 25, 2008 at 4:44 PM
do you have an actual question for me, jake?
wise_man on November 25, 2008 at 4:44 PM
My point is that they can’t. If you are some poor dude in Guatemala without a US citizen close relative, you are looking at a wait of 15-20 years before you can get your work visa to the US. If you have three kids and you can’t feed and clothe them, then waiting 15-20 years for your number to come up is just not a viable option. This is not the America of the late 19th century when you just showed up at Ellis Island, paid your ten dollar immigration fee and you were in.
factoid on November 25, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Thanks bill kristol and all you mccain supporters.
peacenprosperity on November 25, 2008 at 4:52 PM
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